SS- Darth Tyranus (Alz) vs. Marka Ragnos (Rootmeister)

- This debate concerns the Lucasfilm Licensing universe and adheres to its public and internal policies and directives - and serves no time or character limitations.

Ragnos' Demise

There is a plethora of evidence showcasing that Dooku’s power during AotC was on par with Yoda’s. Several quotes varying from S-Canon to from George Lucas himself make their parity irrefutable.

-George Lucas, Attack of the Clones commentary wrote:You can't just go right into the sword fight, so I decided to go back to The Empire Strikes Back of throwing things at each other, even though I knew they were equal to each other. So, it was a hopeless gesture, and they would've figured that out in two seconds, but for the audience it's nice for them to go through this process of throwing everything around.

-Pablo Hidalgo, Lightsabers 2010, Count Dooku and Yoda wrote:attempted to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis and other Force abilities, but they were too evenly matched

-Duel With Dooku, Episode 2 Attack of the Clones Diorama wrote:Lightsabers ignited, Count Dooku and Yoda began an epic confrontation. Clearly skill with a lightsaber would not decide the outcome of the duel, and the two combatants exhibited near equal strength in the Force. The duel raged on, noble Jedi pitted against evil Sith, until Dooku threatened the life of the fallen Obi Wan and Anakin, forcing Yoda to abandon the battle to save his allies and allowing Dooku the opportunity to escape.

-Clone Wars Sneak Peek 1 wrote:Grievous executed brilliant strategies that gave the Confederacy of Independent Systems many victories in battle. His skill in wielding multiple lightsabers enabled him to cut down even the most capable attackers, including Jedi.

-Star Wars Fandex Deluxe Edition wrote:Before Dooku could kill them, Yoda arrived to confront him. The two engaged in a frenetic clash of lightsabers in which neither could best the other. Unable to win, Dooku distracted Yoda by threatening the lives of the two wounded Jedi with a toppling crane.

-The Saga Collection - Battle Of Geonosis (action figure) wrote:Yoda and Dooku battle to a stalemate - but Yoda senses the cloud of the dark side has grown stronger.

During TPM Yoda is able to effortlessly dodge 3 renowned Jedi Masters, Plo Koon, Depa Billaba and Saesee Tinn, combined without moving a meter out of position and meanwhile being unarmed.

-Darth Maul Shadow Hunter wrote:She had attended a lecture about battle techniques given by Master Yoda earlier this year, and the memory of it came back to her now. Yoda had faced the assembled students and spoken, his thin reedy voice somehow carrying to the far corners of the lecture hall without benefit of amplifiers.
"Better than training, the Force is. More than experience or speed it gives."
And he had given a demonstration. Three members of the council—Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Billaba, excellent fighters all—had come forward and attacked him. Master Yoda had not been armed, and had not seemed to move more than a meter or so, his tread slow and measured. Nevertheless, none of the three had been able to lay a finger on him.

Note that most of the TPM council are superior to TPM Maul given that they defeat him during the events of “Jedi Power Battles” which has been approved by LFL official and editor Steven Sansweet. So here you can get a cutscene of Ki-Adi-Mundi beating TPM Maul, that same cutscene appears to whatever character you choose, be it Adi Gallia, Plo Koon, Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan Kenobi or Mace Windu. Yoda also tells you, the player, that you have "defeated the Sith Lord", again, with whatever character you choose.

https://youtu.be/2zGiUm6LEJc?t=12908
3:35:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xnozdiPxlM&ab_channel=FairPlayGaming
4:00

Given Yoda’s domination of 3 entities that scale above TPM Maul, one can infer that Yoda as of TPM would absolutely disintegrate Maul within a matter of seconds. So when referring to AotC Dooku, it seems almost impossible that one can think Maul stands a chance at surviving more than a couple of seconds against the Count of Serreno. Of course this claim is supported with quotes, as provided below.







In addition to this, Gillard notes that AotC Anakin would simply cream TPM Maul, the same Anakin that gets completely and utterly destroyed by Dooku.



Maul, 5 years pre TPM, matches Sidious blow for blow indicating vivid parity between to the two. Note that Maul is starved during the fight and after it he is noted to become more powerful both directly and continuously leading up to TPM.

-The Darkside Sourcebook (2001) wrote:Maul's final test as a Sith apprentice occurred on an isolated Outer Rim World. Abandoned there by Darth Sidious, he was told that he had to survive on his own until Sidious returned a month later, all the while being hunted by hordes of deadly assassin droids. Maul fought as best as he could, but exhaustion and hunger finally took their toll, and one of the tireless droids finally wounded him badly enough that he felt he could not go on.

-The Darkside Sourcebook (2001) wrote:Anger and hatred welled up in Maul, and he drew renewed strength from the dark side. Hurling himself at Darth Sidious, he nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows. Sidious barely deflected them all. Eventually Maul spent his fury, and Darth Sidious still stood. Maul prepared himself for death-but Sidious only laughed. By giving in to his rage and hatred to kill his own master-by wanting to kill his own master-Maul had in fact passed the final test. Now he was a Sith Lord-Darth Maul, Dark Lord of the Sith.

Aswell as this, Plagueis acknowledges Maul as having vast and incredible skill while also musing his self’s superiority to any Sith before him.

-Darth Plagueis Novel wrote:Plagueis watched as droid after droid was impaled on the opposing crimson blades. “It strikes me as unnecessary, but I won’t deny his mastery of the Jar’Kai technique.”

-Darth Plagueis Novel wrote:But Plagueis now understood that Tenebrous had been wrong about sorcery, as he had been wrong about so many things. Yes, the gift was strongest in those who, with scant effort, could allow themselves to be subsumed by the currents of the Force and become conduits for the powers of the dark side. But there was an alternative path to those abilities, and it led from a place where the circle closed on itself and sheer will substituted for selflessness. Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn’t master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.

Sidious also during the events of TPM is labelled as possibly the most powerful Sith ever.



This leaves one to infer that Sidious, as early as TPM, is beyond any Sith before him. Sadly, Ragnos falls under the rank of Sith, so in turn, is subjected to being capped by Sidious and even Plagueis due to his opinion of being above those Sith before him and given his extensive knowledge of the Ancients, it seems highly likely that he was aware of the power that they wielded.

By RotS, Sidious has gained dozens of more accolades showcasing him as being the most powerful Sith ever, which makes a strong intent case that he’s far beyond what Ragnos could ever possibly imagine given the indication of Sidious’s supremacy as early as TPM.

-Darth Maul, Sith Apprentice wrote:Meet Darth Sidious - the most powerful Sith Master who ever lived.

-The Complete Visual Dictionary wrote:Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.

-The Sith (Revenge of the Sith Collection, 2005) wrote:Finally - the Emperor - who should be fighting to save the Republic - is revealed as the most powerful and menacing Sith of all!

-The Clone Wars: Wild Space wrote:"Master Yoda..." He steepled his fingers. "Are you quite certain young Anakin is ready for such a task?"
"Yes," said Yoda flatly.
And that was a lie. Yoda was a master at masking his emotions, but not even he could hide them from the greatest Sith Lord ever known. He was worried...and backed into a corner.

-Insider #86: Yoda's Right Arm wrote:When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history. "Rob Coleman wanted Yoda to feel the power of his enemy," says Wheless, "like a force he's never dealt with before."

-The New Essential Chronology wrote:Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

-Jedi Battles wrote:When the most powerful Jedi battled against the most powerful Sith, the two sides of the Force clashed in spectacular style.

-Legends Epic Collection: The Empire Volume 1 wrote:With the galaxy now ripe for conquest, the Emperor has become the most powerful Sith Lord of all and a master of the Dark Side of the Force, ordering the extermination of the Jedi Order with the aid of his apprentice, the deadly Darth Vader.

-Force & Destiny wrote:His power may be unparalleled in the history of the Sith.

Then from TPM to RotS he experiences growth and even stalemates Yoda. This makes it clear that Dooku isn’t far off Sidious in RotS due to his previous parity with Yoda in AotC. As well as this, Dooku also receives plenty of growth quotes during TCW indicating his prime is in RotS.

-Star Wars Fact File #116 wrote:Dooku had at his disposal a Sith holocron. This powerful and ancient dark side resource enhanced his own powers and helped to entice other Force users into the Separatist cause.

-Star Wars: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous wrote:"Is there such a thing as too much power?" Dooku mused. "For instance," he continued carefully, "there was a day when your power was clearly greater than mine. Today, however I have waxed as you have waned.

-Star Wars: Episode III Souvenir Guide wrote:As the Clone Wars reached their conclusion, Dooku became increasingly confident in his abilities.

Coming to an overall conclusion, Dooku rapes Ragnos.

Ragnos <<<< RotS Sidious ~ RotS Yoda > ~ RotS Dooku > AotC Dooku ~ AotC Yoda ~ TPM Yoda >>> TPM Koon > TPM Maul > Ragnos

Stake in the modern era

The ancient sith in general have a strong position in the modern era, with Marka Ragnos being near the top of the pecking order. Whenever an ancient sith has appeared in the modern era, it was always a top priority and they made for a huge threat to the galaxy as a whole.

Karness Muur

Upon taking the Muur talisman, Vader is capable of defeating ROTS Palpatine seemingly without question. What’s more, this Vader is still subservient to Muur. Given that Suited Vader up to this point lacks any potential in defeating Palpatine and may not even be surpassing TPM Maul yet, the fact that Muur boosting Vader to such a degree is enough to take down Palpatine is significant to Muur’s power, indicating relativity to even the top tier of the prequel trilogy era.


Muur also strongly benefits from Vong Krayt, being outright stated twice to be beyond him. Although their fight was extremely circumstantial, it doesn’t matter as he is indeed confirmed to be beyond the peak of Krayt whilst the latter was still in his Vong armor.





Vong Krayt enjoys the status of being on par with if not outright above ROTS Sidious



Vong Krayt is also significantly more powerful than his previous iteration as a tusken raider, who is close enough to only a slightly post-prime Kenobi to the extent that Kenobi will be killed if he even thinks about his disadvantages in the fight. While Kenobi does indeed face environmental disadvantages, this is the only advantage attributed to him out of several that aren’t related to his power, and it appears to set in late into the fight, after Hett is already competing solidly.

The Life and Legend of Obi Wan Kenobi wrote:
"Hett's hands dropped to his belt and the two lightsabers practically leapt into his gloved hands. He ignited both weapons at once, unleashing their identical green energy beams. He swung fast with the lightsaber in his right hand but Ben blocked it. The lightsabers sizzled loudly as they clashed. It was fortunate for Ben that he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine, that he had not allowed his reflexes to become dull. He did not think about how long it had been since he had last used his lightsaber in combat. Nor did consider that he was older than Hett by at least a decade, or Hett's considerable skills with his own weapons, and that the Tusken was far more experienced at fighting in the desert. Ben knew that any such thoughts would probably only get him killed. As prepared as Ben was for many things, he was not ready to die. Not yet. Not today. Hett brought his other lightsaber in at a sharp angle, forcing Ben to lurch back. Ben gripped his own weapon with both hands as he swung at Hett's legs, but Hett blocked the swipe. There was another loud sizzle as the blades dragged across each other. Ben gasped as Hett launched a powerful kick to his midriff. The kick knocked Ben off his feet, and as he fell back through the air, Hett hurled one of his lightsabers at Ben's body. Ben clung tight to his own lightsaber as he twisted his body in midair to avoid being struck by the spinning blade of Hett's weapon. The moment Hett's lightsaber whipped past Ben's head, Hett used the Force to retrieve it, drawing it back to his waiting left hand."
"As Hett caught the lightsaber, Ben rolled up from the ground and swung out again. Hett blocked the strike with his right lightsaber, then threw his left arm forward to smash his other lightsaber's handle into Ben's jaw. Ben ignored the painful jolt to his head and reflexively brought his blade up high, forcing Hett to block the blow with his right lightsaber and leaving his own midsection briefly exposed. Before Hett could strike with his other lightsaber, Ben kicked him hard in the stomach. Hett grunted, but he didn't go down. He lashed out again at Ben, kicking up sand as he moved in for the kill. Not one of the mounted Tuskens so much as flinched as they watched the duel, nor did they rally for their chief. They merely watched in silence, waiting for the outcome. Ben blocked each blow, but he wasn't doing it with ease. Hett was far more experienced at fighting on the sand and in the desert heat. Ben knew that his opponent would never surrender, let alone withdraw. As much as he hoped to avoid killing Hett, he also knew that they couldn't keep fighting indefinitely."

After that, Krayt experiences decades of growth in the dark side, before becoming even stronger in the dark side due to his experience in the embrace of pain, and then returning to continue his training under Xoxaan. He experiences massive growth from a time where he is firmly below ROTS Kenobi, but is still close enough to compete strongly, yet he is still below Muur.




Meanwhile, someone such as Naga Sadow benefits from 2,000 years of growth from the exiles per KOTORCG.



While this doesn’t definitively bind Karness Muur himself as the latter went off to war, it does bind the likes of Xoxaan, Sorzus Syn, Ajunta Pall and all of the other exiles who didn’t undergo the same conditions as Muur. There is no evidence that Muur can surpass these exiles to such a degree that he breaks out of 2,000 years of growth in the form of Naga Sadow, much less crossing the gap all the way to Marka Ragnos and beyond.

On the contrary to the (lack of) evidence that Muur surpassed the exiles to this degree, his talisman was made to be ‘significantly’ weaker than Sorzus Syn’s, and Muur ultimately died to a nameless rival. It is obvious that Muur isn’t infalliable among the Jedi exiles, let alone what comes later.




Naga Sadow himself still isn’t near the top of the pecking order among the ancients. Freedon Nadd trains under him, eventually becoming ‘far more powerful than the teacher’ and killing him. This Naga Sadow was very much still alive, and this is before Freedon Nadd undergoes a century of growth.

The Official Fact File 90 wrote:Eventually, the apprentice became far more powerful than the teacher...

Freedon Nadd takes Exar Kun to Yavin 4, where Exar Kun obliterates Freedon Nadd, the event being specifically and repeatedly attributed to Kun’s power in the force. He also absorbs all of Nadd’s knowledge in the process, voiding any advantage Nadd may have had over him and meaning that Kun is now capable of stomping Freedon Nadd.

Official Star Wars Fact File 107 wrote:During the Great Sith War, a Jedi called Exar Kun was turned to the dark side of the Force by the spirit of Freedon Nadd. Nadd's teachings were too thorough, though, and Kun became so powerful that he destroyed Nadd's spirit forever.

Exar Kun, Galactic Files wrote:This leads him to the tomb of a long-deceased Dark Lord named Freedon Nadd, a spirit who is destroyed by Kun after all of his magical knowledge is absorbed.

After this, Ulic-Qel Droma has started to duel Kun to the death, and they are equals and stalemating until Marka Ragnos shows up.

The Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:Exar Kun and Ulic fought, but they were too evenly matched for either to gain the upper hand.

Ulic-Qel Droma, Star Wars Databank wrote:Now, he sought out the only other Sith practitioner who could challenge him -- Ulic Qel Droma.

Marka Ragnos significantly boosts Kun and Ulic and exerts an illusory mind control which ‘forces’ them to wage war. Couple this with the fact that Kun and Ulic were going to kill each other just a few minutes before and are now teaming up and wanting to preserve the sith empire they previously had no ties to just because Ragnos told them to?







The fact that Ragnos, even as a spirit, is tping Exar Kun and Ulic-Qel Droma after the former became more powerful than Freedon Nadd and the latter is an equal to that being, speaks volumes of his power. Ragnos therefore is multiple stomp gaps above Freedon Nadd who likewise is curbstomping Naga Sadow, who Muur would be hard pressed to be surpassing without an unfounded argument of pure conjecture.

---
The Dark Reaper

Distancing a little from the pure power based perspective we can use the dark reaper to solidify a top tier position for the ancient sith.

The dark reaper was actively boosting the dark side of the force to the extent that the Jedi were able to detect it and determine that it’s an immediate threat which must be stopped.

Mace Windu, Star Wars: The Clone Wars Video Game wrote:"Anakin, I sense the dark side growing in power, Dooku must be close to completing his work on the Dark Reaper. You need to find the Sith temple and destroy it before Dooku gets the Reaper operational."

Failing to stop the dark reaper, put it simply, spells certain doom for the republic, despite the fact that the republic had won the major battle of Geonosis just one month prior.

Mace Windu & Master Yoda, Star Wars: The Clone Wars Video Game wrote:"If Dooku restores the Dark Reaper, it will mean the end of the Republic."

"Stop him, we must."

Mace Windu, Star Wars: The Clone Wars Video Game wrote:"If Dooku gets the Dark Reaper operational, we won't stand a chance of winning this war."

Mace Windu, Star Wars: The Clone Wars Video Game wrote wrote:"The fate of the Republic rests on this battle."

The technique used to resist the dark reaper’s draining capabilities presumably would have been learned by Dooku, but even so, this immunity is only brief.

Ulic Qel-Droma, Star Wars: The Clone Wars Video Game wrote:"Yes, I can teach you to harness the power of the Force around you, making you immune to the Dark Reaper's effects for a short time."

Without immunity to the dark reaper’s effects, just about anyone will be killed instantly by being near it, something which Dooku is ultimately not exempt from in any way.

Anakin Skywalker to Obi-Wan Kenobi, Star Wars: The Clone Wars wrote: "Don't bother Master, anyone who comes near the Reaper will be killed instantly."

Given that the dark reaper is just a machination of Naga Sadow, it stands to reason that Marka Ragnos scales well above this power. Ulic Qel Droma, who as noted before was tp’ed by Ragnos, was capable of defeating the Dark Reaper with his power alone and his lightsaber, and also taught Anakin the technique to resist it’s effects in the first place.
Although you can argue that Naga Sadow wouldn’t be capable of pulling off this kind of drain in a straight fight due to the unknown amount of time it would take, Ragnos can directly channel these capabilities on the fly with his scepter, which is demonstrated by it’s ability to drain multiple nexii in spite of the fact that it is his disciples wielding the scepter, not even Ragnos himself.

Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy wrote: "But the area around the temple felt strange, like its dark side aura was gone.”

Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy wrote:“The Disciples of Ragnos are getting bold. They’ve managed to siphon Force energy from every site that was mentioned in my journal. We still don’t know what it is they’re planning to do with the energy though.”

Although the events of the clone wars game are still bound by ROTS Sidious’ supremacy quotes, we can easily reconcile that the capabilities beyond Dooku are attributed to hax, which bypasses a purely power based means of winning a fight. So even under the condition that Ragnos were less powerful than the Count (which he is not), that would not prevent Ragnos from winning if an altercation between the two occurred. While Dooku continues to grow into ROTS, nothing indicates that he can bridge the gap presented.

---
The New Jedi Order

Ragnos’ tremendous power in galactic discourse is not only within his own time and the prequel trilogy, but also even to the New Jedi Order.

The return of Marka Ragnos entails havoc on the entire galaxy and it would take the combined might of the order, including Luke, to take down Ragnos

Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy wrote:"If Ragnos is resurrected, there's no telling what he might be able to do. It will take all of our strength to stop him."

Luke Skywalker even as of Return of the Jedi resists ROTJ Palpatine’s attempts to break him down to where he can be converted to the dark side, whilst Palpatine is amping Vader. Yet, Luke is able to push this Vader to the losing end consistently despite the latter feeling power greater than he has ever felt before (among his suited iterations).

Return of the Jedi Novelization wrote:His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor.

The Movie Trilogy Sourcebook wrote:Still, even these were not insurmountable problems: with young Skywalker at his side, all could be made right again. But the boy found it inside himself to rise above the Emperor’s compelling power, and thwarted Palpatine's attempts to turn him to the dark side. In some baffling way, that young whelp was stronger than him! This was intolerable!

This is ultimately a much more impressive performance against Palpatine than the likes of the B-team, as well as Darth Plagueis, who were very evidently no match for Palpatine’s mental influence, let alone winning against this souped up version of Vader at the same time as being subjected to it.

Darth Sidious to Darth Plagueis, Star Wars: Darth Plagueis wrote: "You may be wondering: when did he begin to change? The truth is that I haven’t changed. As we have clouded the minds of the Jedi, I clouded yours."

Luke gets vastly more powerful from ROTJ to DE

Dark Empire End-notes wrote:Through the long years of struggle, Luke grew more and more adept in the skills of a Jedi.

Dark Empire Sourcebook wrote:Soon he was ready to strike. Fully healed and in greater control of the Dark Side than ever, he finally acted to end the Mutiny.

Meanwhile, Palpatine has also grown significantly more powerful and can overwhelm Luke’s mental capabilities himself by Dark Empire

Dark Empire Audio Drama wrote:Palpatine's hologram: ...and I have come to realize that the dark side is my only ally. The dark side is the only means to power.

R2-D2: (beeb beeb)

Luke: Be quiet, R2, I don't care about the time, but can you do something about the heat? I suddenly... feel... cold...

Palpatine's hologram: My explorations of the Force have revealed to me many wonderful secrets.

Luke: Cold... like a dead hand pressing on my heart...

Palpatine's hologram: I have learned that Anger and Will, when joined together, forge a most unholy and devastating alliance.

Luke: Maybe R2's right... time to leave... but it's like a great weight... pressing down on me... I... can't move... can't... leave...

Palpatine's hologram: Using Anger, I have learned to unlock the hidden reservoirs of the glorious dark side power.

Luke: No...

Palpatine's hologram: Anger concentrated by Will in the vital center of the body creates a portal, through which vast energies are released. The energies of the dark side of the Force. This is the power I command, now that I am one with the dark side.

Luke: Is this what my father felt?

Palpatine's hologram: With these energies, I have slain my enemies across the empty reaches of space.

Luke: I shouldn't... listen...

Palpatine's hologram: I have created lightning, and unleashed devastating fires.

Luke: ...but I can't... stop...

Palpatine's hologram: With this knowledge, I can unleash dark side energies that swirl invisibly around us, even to shatter the fabric of space itself. In this way, I have created Storms.

Luke: Got... to break... free!

R2-D2: (beeb beeb)

Luke: I'm... alright, R2. (panting). This place... is still strong with the dark side. And the presence of the Emperor, even in a hologram, is almost overpowering.

From there, Palpatine continues to grow throughout Dark Empire, and even so, Luke breaks free of Palpatine’s domination and turns against him.

TOM: At the time I sent in my original proposal, I didn’t quite know how the story would end, except that Luke and Leia would overpower the Emperor by joining their minds in the Force. Tim had a problem with that, of course. He said my idea was “an insult to the Star Wars philosophy”. He said that the idea that Luke and Leia would use mental power to destroy the Emperor was “completely and absolutely WRONG.” [his caps]

Q: Weird.

TOM: Well, I think he might have misunderstood what I wrote in the proposal, about “whole areas of the dark mind falling to the light side of the Force…” I also said that at that moment “everything Luke has learned about the dark side is transmuted and turned against the Emperor.”

Following the events of Dark Empire, Luke doubles in power

I, Jedi wrote:When we had met before I had felt power in him, but now, after his experiences with the Emperor Reborn, his power had been redoubled. Physically he looked a bit haggard and worn, with the flesh around his eyes having tightened and wrinkles appearing at their corners. I knew we were the same age chronologically, but in experience he far surpassed me.

He then grows even more powerful from the ordeal with Exar Kun

New Rebellion wrote:Luke was raising his lightsaber, his heart pounding. He was reaching out with the Force, going back to the place he had gone when he first fought Exar Kun. He would be out of his body but protected within the Force. Just as Ben had done in his battle with Darth Vader.

Luke would come back even stronger, and he would guide Leia to defeat Kueller.

(Continued in the next post)

Continued…

Jedi Academy Trilogy Vol.III: Champions of the Force wrote:Luke clapped him on the back and smiled with dark-ringed eyes that shone with an inner brightness stronger than ever before. As he conquered each seemingly insurmountable obstacle, Luke's Jedi powers grew greater and greater- but, like Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda, a Jedi Master learned to use his powers even less, relying on wits instead of showmanship.

(The latter quote can also be used to support his growth throughout DE and throughout all of post-ROTJ)

Moving onto Kyle, he is too powerful for Jerec to outright defeat and subdue even before encountering major growth. Jerec, even before acquiring the powers of the valley, although being weaker than Vader, was capable of rivaling him.

Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight Game Manual wrote:His embrace of the Force's dark side gives him powers that rival Vader's.

Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:Jerec's followers held Kyle off long enough for Jerec to access the Valley's secrets and gain phenomenal Force powers. But even with his increased might, Jerec was unable to defeat Kyle or to prevent him from freeing the Valley's trapped Jedi spirits.

Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight Novelization wrote:Now that the Valley was under his control, Jerec was in no particular hurry. He needed time to prepare, but more than that, time in which to savor that which destiny had placed before him, much as a gourmet might linger over a rare and carefully prepared dessert. There was leakage, though - leakage that could double or even triple his ability - and whet his appetite for more.

LucasArts Continuity Supervisor Ryan Kaufman, starwars.com wrote:But what a task! At the end of Jedi Knight, the player (as Kyle) is either a consummately powerful warrior, having vanquished the evil Dark Jedi Jerec in face-to-face combat...

Jerec has also experienced Palpatine's dark side Compendium, albeit not in full

The Dark Forces Saga, Part 3: Pride Of The Dark Side wrote:One man who took the title of Dark Jedi with pride was Jerec -- the enigmatic Force-user who murdered Kyle Katarn's father -- but he did not do so alone. Inspired by glimpses into the Emperor's Dark Side Compendium, Jerec intended to bring to fruition an experiment Palpatine had spoken of in his malignant tome: the creation of a unit of seven Dark Jedi perfectly absorbed into the Emperor's will, a "Dark Side Elite." Unfortunately for Jerec, the Emperor readily recognized the darksider's ambition and denied Jerec further access to the Compendium, ending the audacious experiment. Nonetheless, Jerec at least managed to assemble a cabal of Dark Jedi willing to do his bidding.

Jerec’s power obtained from the valley of the jedi is so great that the advantages merited by it are his main source of power, implying his Vader-rivaling power and the knowledge from Palpatine’s compendium was practically nothing to Valley of the Jedi Jerec

Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight, lucasarts.com wrote:His heavy brow overshadows the empty recesses that normally embrace eyes. Tattoos flow from his mouth and he hides his empty eye sockets with a thin blindfold-like mask. His power and advantages mainly stem from his vast knowledge of the Force and the Well.

When battling him he can drain most of your resources from the Well leaving you weak and vulnerable. He is more powerful since he has absorbed some of the Void from the Valley of the Souls.

Following this, Kyle finds and harnesses a source even stronger than the valley.

Kyle Katarn, Dark Forces II: Mysteries of the Sith wrote wrote:“I found a greater source of power than I had ever known.”

Kyle then joins the new Jedi Academy, where he is quickly surpassed by Kyp Durron

New Essential Chronology wrote:He located other candidates, including the clone Dorsk 81, the warrior woman Kirana Ti from Dathomir, and Corran Horn from Rogue Squadron. New Republic Commander Kyle Katarn also joined the first batch of students...

Dark Forces Saga Part 1, wizards.com wrote:Kyle realized he still carried the taint of the dark side from his conflict with Jerec. When Master Skywalker made a second offer to train him, Kyle immediately took him up on it, believing it would help him tame his dark feelings. Kyle developed a friendship with fellow Jedi trainee Corran Horn, but when two of Luke's students fell to the dark side, the anxiety Kyle felt about his earlier brush with darkness multiplied.

Abel G. Pena wrote:"I don't think Kyle was tied up doing something else during that series, he just wasn't mentioned by the writers of most of those books, same way Streen, Kirana Ti, and a bunch of others weren't. Even KJA didn't put the spotlight on all of his original Jedi-dozen in the Jedi Academy trilogy. Kyle's just in the background of the NJO like he was in the JA3."

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:Kyp travels to Yavin Four to join Luke’s Jedi academy. There, he immerses himself in work, and within days has surpassed the achievements of the other Jedi students. He doesn’t socialize with the others, preferring to concentrate on honing his Jedi skills.

Official Star Wars Fact File 115 wrote:After escaping the Maw Installation, Kyp was enrolled as one of the first students at Luke Skywalker’s Jedi Academy on Yavin 4. There he quickly demonstrated formidable Force Powers, more than any of the other students.

Kyp Durron, Databank wrote:Skywalker’s first class of Jedi students was an eclectic mix of Force-attuned beings from across the galaxy. Kyp was easily the most powerful, and he quickly grew impatient at Skywalker’s pace of instruction.

I, Jedi wrote:Kyp proved almost immediately to be the greatest of the apprentices gathered there. With only a minimum of training, he blasted on past all of us in terms of what he could do.

Jedi Academy trilogy Vol.II: Dark Apprentice wrote:In little more than a week of intensive work, Kyp had surpassed the achievements of the other Jedi students.

I, Jedi wrote:Kyp’s growth in the Force was nothing shy of incredible. In just over a week he surpassed anything the rest of us were doing by light-years.

Thus we have Luke Skywalker, Kyp Durron, Kyle Katarn and essentially everyone else being required to take down Ragnos collectively, whose powers have just been detailed above.
We have no credible reason to assume Luke is just way way wrong in his notion, as we still have quite a bit of supplementary evidence. Luke’s notion also sets the stakes and is thus the driving force behind stopping Ragnos in the first place, which occupies that entire segment of the game, therefore it would be whimsical for that to just serve no genuine purpose.

Ragnos’ attempt at resurrection is also not an isolated event from Exar Kun’s return, inextricably linking the two as a grand scheme of the dark side. Given that the dark side did not succeed with Kun, it follows up with Ragnos

Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties, starwars.com wrote:Seven years after the Battle of Endor, when Luke Skywalker established an academy with the intention of rebuilding the Jedi Order, the spirit of the ancient Sith Lord Exar Kun returned to prevent the Jedi Brotherhood's resurrection. Three short years later, another Sith daemon, this time the Dark Lord Marka Ragnos, also was called back from the realm of Chaos to terrorize the galaxy. This latter event was not isolated. Some of the disciples of Ragnos had formerly been aligned with the dark sider Hethrir and his Empire Reborn, which had been defeated only a short time prior. Worse, soon after the encounter with Ragnos, the lifeless body of the reformed Sith acolyte Flint was found on Belderone: an ancient Jedi lightsaber in hand, a cauterized hole through his throat.
The Force seethed with the suggestion of a grand, sinister scheme.

Exar Kun also requires the collective might of the academy to be taken down, and is repeatedly demonstrated to be far above JA Luke, binding his soul to his existence while toying with the rest of the students and retaining his dominance over Kyp Durron. This creates a narrative stance where Ragnos represents a relative threat level to that of Exar Kun in JA, something easily above anything Dooku can output.

I, Jedi wrote:I let Streen fill Kun with our resolve to unite and defeat him, but Kun's contempt for us came rolling back along the line like an echo. He had faced fleets of ships and all the known Jedi. He had slain his own master. His power was unrivaled. He had defeated our Master and beyond our resolve to fight, we had no operative plans and nothing with which to challenge him. We were snacks he would devour at his leisure, not morsels that might choke him.

Jedi Academy Vol.3: Champions of the Force wrote:With a wheezing cough as he expelled long-trapped air from his lungs and drew in a fresh breath, Master Skywalker groaned and sat up on the stone platform.

"You've-done it!" Luke said, gaining strength from each lungful of cool, clean air. The new Jedi Knights surged toward him. "You have broken the bonds."

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Later, Jacen joined forces with the other Jedi students in destroying Exar Kun's spirit forever and freeing Luke's spirit.

****

Later she became one of Skywalker's Jedi candidates and joined his other Jedi students on Yavin IV in defeating the spirit of Dark Lord Exar Kun, protecting Luke's body and freeing his spirit.

The version of Ragnos also being used here is fully corporeal and restored to his original power level, something noted to be an advantage for Kueller over Exar Kun despite the latter being stronger. Ragnos isn’t going to be facing the weaknesses that enabled Exar Kun to be defeated in the first place, which was that he was rapidly losing power due to his spirit nature and thus could be goaded into entrapment while he was no longer in a condition to fight.

New Rebellion wrote:She [Leia] wished she had the same certainty. This Kueller had more Force capability than anyone she had encountered in years. Except Exar Kun, and he had been a spirit. Kueller was alive.

I,Jedi wrote:The only vaguely positive explanation for Exar Kun's dormancy that I could come up with was that his effort to draw the Sun Crusher from Yavin and to down Luke had tired him out. I had no way to determine how powerful Exar Kun could be, but it struck me as possible that he'd expended a lot of energy to defeat a Jedi Master. There was no telling how long it would take for him to recover.
-
"I know I can buy us time, but not much. At the rate he recovers, Kun should be ready for something tomorrow, maybe tonight."
-
My thinking was that Kun, still taxed from his having funneled enough power through Streen to create that cyclone, would take the chance at having Streen use the Headhunter to kill Luke.

Even a glancing blow from the scepter of Ragnos is able to casually one shot Kyle while being wielded by Jaden Korr, not even from Ragnos himself.



If just a fraction of Ragnos’ power is capable of this, in conjunction with shedding the weaknesses that Exar Kun possesses that allowed him to be defeated and similarly requiring the same threshold to be taken down, it stands to reason that Marka Ragnos would be well capable of replicating Exar Kun’s performance against Luke and the others.

---
Counters

Alz wrote:Maul, 5 years pre TPM, matches Sidious blow for blow indicating vivid parity between to the two. Note that Maul is starved during the fight and after it he is noted to become more powerful both directly and continuously leading up to TPM.

Your entire set of evidence to support this claim is from one account of several. There are more accounts and more recent accounts of this altercation. One account says that Sidious ‘had just begun’ to tap into his force reserves. This makes it obvious that Sidious isn’t going all out, and this would work both ways for offense and defense. We also see that Maul is tapping into strength he has never felt before. While you can argue that extends to TPM Maul, it certainly is still a detractor from the weaknesses attributed to Maul in the moment.

Star Wars Episode I Journal #3: Darth Maul wrote:I am going to kill him. Every beat of my blood exults in my power. Every blow I deliver is meant to be the killing blow. I use reserves of strength I did not know I had. My blows are sure and precise, my footwork flawless. I gather in the power of the dark side. I feel my power clash with his. The air is thick, charged with our dark, titanic powers.
He parries every blow. But I see that he has to work hard to keep me at bay. Triumph roars through me at my Master's weakness. He is not as powerful as he appears.
...
But I have been weakened by my ordeal, and my Master maneuvers me against the cave wall. I am gasping, trying to suck in enough air to keep going. My vision blurs as Lord Sidious raises his lightsaber. I parry the blow, but my lightsaber suddenly flies out of my hand, torn by the power of my Master directing the dark side. I realize then that he has just begun to tap into his own reserves. Mine are played out.

In this account, Maul has difficulty even perceiving Sidious’ movements despite his rage and is ‘suddenly’ forced into a position where he is defeated

Wrath of Darth Maul wrote:
Maul realized his opponents had not really been the assassin droids. He thought of all the punishment he had endured over the past month, and then of the unending punishments of his entire life. He thought of his true opponent, the unseen adversary, chosen by Sidious to become a Sith Lord. Maul felt robbed of his past and future. And then a rage unlike anything he had ever felt before swelled through him. The rage was so overwhelming that he thought it might consume him.

No. I can direct it. My rage will consume my enemy. It will consume my Master. Glaring at Sidious, Maul saw the true face of his enemy.
Sidious snickered. "Can you understand? Focus. If there can be only one apprentice, then one of you must die. Who do you think I have chosen to die, Maul?"
Maul felt his rage flowing through his veins, pumping energy into every muscle. He felt so powerful that he believed he could accomplish anything. And more than anything else, he wanted his Master's blood.
Maul sprang at Sidious. Sidious barely missed the first blow from Maul's lightsaber, an upward swing that aimed to rip Sidious in half. Maul swung again but Sidious deflected the blow and retreated. As Maul moved across the rough cave floor, sweat stung his eyes, but he did not stumble. He somersaulted through the air, his lightsaber whirling in the darkness. Sidious raised his lightsaber to parry the next blow, which was so powerful it made him stagger backward. As Maul struck again, he thought, I'm going to kill him.
Sidious parried every blow, but Maul could tell his Master was working hard to keep him at bay.
...
Sidious shifted like a liquid shadow, maneuvering around his apprentice. Maul was suddenly up against the wall, gasping for breath as his vision blurred. His strength was evaporating. He turned fast to see Sidious. Sidious lashed out with his lightsaber. Maul parried the blow, but then his lightsaber suddenly flew from his hand.

The quote you’ve provided isn’t necessarily taking into account the state in which Sidious is using his power. Sidious not only is just beginning to tap into his power, but he spends most of the fight on defense, something that entirely juxtaposes his normally extremely aggressive and unpredictable style of combat. In other words, Palpatine’s composure whilst testing Maul was barely enough to deflect his blows, but we quickly see that this is hardly his full power, and he is perfectly capable of soundly defeating Maul at this time, based on what we know, at least.

Another issue with this argument is that TPM Sidious’ supremacy over TPM Maul is required for your overall claim to function, even if the gap between the two isn’t large by your argument. This means that Sidious grew significantly to where Hypori Sheev is no longer binding anyone, and thus this dynamic between Sidious and Maul is spotty at best when arguing in Maul’s favor.

Alz wrote:Sidious also during the events of TPM is labelled as possibly the most powerful Sith ever.

You didn't source this quote, but apparently it is from figurine collection #15. While I couldn't find the release date for this exact issue, issue #54 was released in 2007. It's safe to say this can be lumped in with my rebuttal to the ROTS quotes, which will come up later.

This also isn’t referring to Sidious as of any particular point in history. It gives a chronology on the events leading up to the galactic civil war, which includes TPM, but this does not mean TPM Sidious is the most powerful sith in history yet, as it quickly moves onto Dooku and Vader, and then plunging the galaxy into darkness. The dashes and the off topic nature separating the supremacy part of the quote already create a disconnect from itself and the recap of the events during the prequels, so in truth this could be referring to literally any point where Palpatine is alive, including his prime.

Alz wrote:Aswell as this, Plagueis acknowledges Maul as having vast and incredible skill while also musing his self’s superiority to any Sith before him

Alz wrote:and even Plagueis due to his opinion of being above those Sith before him and given his extensive knowledge of the Ancients, it seems highly likely that he was aware of the power that they wielded

The first thing I would like to point out is that Plagueis is simply noting that Maul has undeniable mastery of Jar’Kai. This does not speak to Maul’s overall ability, nor is Plagueis drawing a comparison between Maul and himself.

Secondly, the so-called Plagueis supremacy quote has this tinge of nuance:

‘If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.’

Funnily enough, this is exactly what happened. Even by Exar Kun’s death, let alone Plagueis’ time, it was “extremely unlikely” that any records of sith teachings survived, and they all died with him. While we know that a slight amount of this was recovered, that is the exception, not the rule.

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:The dark knowledge of the Sith teachings died with Kun, it is extremely unlikely that any records survive, either on Yavin IV or elsewhere. (Keep in mind that even Darth Vader, himself a Dark Lord of the Sith, did not know all there is to know about Sith powers.)

Darth Sidious, The Essential Guide to the Force wrote:One of the most powerful Sith alchemists was Naga Sadow, who left detailed records of his work within a Sith Holocron I came across some years ago.

Exar Kun further explains this knowledge loss himself and implies that Luke Skywalker himself doesn’t have knowledge of the ancient teachings.

Exar Kun, Jedi Academy Vol.2: Dark Apprentice wrote:"I could show you techniques that were lost thousands of years ago, secret rites and hidden doorways of power that no weak Jedi Master like Skywalker dares to touch."

This is confirmed by the fact that Exar Kun renders Luke completely helpless due the latter’s lack of knowledge via just one of his techniques.

Jedi Academy Vol.2: Dark Apprentice wrote:He rallied all the powers of the Force around him, seeking any defensive tactic. With the Sun Crusher looming behind him, Kyp stretched out both hands and blasted Luke with lightning bolts like black cracks in the Force. Dark tendrils rose up from the gaps in the temple flagstones, fanged, illusionary vipers that struck at him from all sides. Luke cried out and tried to strike back, but the shadows of Exar Kun joined the attack, adding more deadly force. The ancient Dark Lord of the Sith lashed out with waves of blackness, driving long icicles of frozen poison into Luke’s body.
He thrashed, but felt helpless. To lose control to anger and desperation would be as great a failure as if he did nothing at all. Luke called upon the powers that Yoda and Obi-Wan had taught him—but everything he did, every skillful technique, failed utterly.

And by the explicitly stated narrative that Exar Kun’s teachings eclipse Luke’s

Jedi Academy Vol.3: Champions of the Force wrote:The spirit of Exar Kun had meant to destroy the cloned Jedi student on a whim, as a gesture of power, but Kyp had stopped him, insisting instead that the Sith Lord teach him everything.

Kyp Durron, Jedi Academy Vol.2: Dark Apprentice wrote:"I've learned a great deal beyond your feeble teachings."

Luke, meanwhile, learns much about the dark side under Dark Emperor Palpatine

Dark Empire Endnotes wrote:Luke is, perhaps, learning more about the Dark Side than he wants to know. The more the Emperor reveals, the more Luke is repulsed. The sheer depravity of the man would shake the soul of the strongest Jedi.

But Luke must continually remind himself of his vow to conquer the Dark Side from within.

Luke's father understood these secrets, these powers, and willingly used them to crush and enslave multitudes of Galactic citizens.

From these quotes, we know that Plagueis didn’t even have the knowledge of Naga Sadow considering that Palpatine uncovered this knowledge well after Plagueis’ death, and thus he cannot know extensively of their powers. Since this quote refers to the knowledge of the sith teachings in general, Ragnos is included in the mass knowledge loss.

If even Ragnos’ inferiors such as Naga Sadow and Freedon Nadd who reigned after him aren’t in Plagueis’ scope of knowledge, and all the sith teachings up to that point died with Kun, the notion that Plagueis’ opinion is reliable is unsupported and founded off of purely conjecture, while there is legitimate evidence proving otherwise.

Alz wrote:By RotS, Sidious has gained dozens of more accolades showcasing him as being the most powerful Sith ever, which makes a strong intent case that he’s far beyond what Ragnos could ever possibly imagine given the indication of Sidious’s supremacy as early as TPM.

Three of these quotes are from children’s books published by DK, namely the first two you provided and Jedi Battles. They aren’t going to be acknowledging the broader EU, they don’t even believe anything existed of the sith before 2,000 years ago. The one from Jedi battles isn’t historical, anyway, but further elaboration on that isn’t needed due to the above reasoning.

-The Clone Wars: Wild Space wrote:"Master Yoda..." He steepled his fingers. "Are you quite certain young Anakin is ready for such a task?"
"Yes," said Yoda flatly.
And that was a lie. Yoda was a master at masking his emotions, but not even he could hide them from the greatest Sith Lord ever known. He was worried...and backed into a corner.

This isn’t even a supremacy quote. Greatest does not mean most powerful, it can be measuring success and overall impact on the galaxy, in which criteria Sidious does indeed fulfill, but this doesn’t make him objectively more powerful in the force than his predecessors.

-Legends Epic Collection: The Empire Volume 1 wrote:With the galaxy now ripe for conquest, the Emperor has become the most powerful Sith Lord of all and a master of the Dark Side of the Force, ordering the extermination of the Jedi Order with the aid of his apprentice, the deadly Darth Vader.

This isn’t necessarily historical at all unless you take “of all” hyper literally, which is no longer a good faith argument

-Force & Destiny wrote:His power may be unparalleled in the history of the Sith.

Forces & Destiny faces a touchy position in continuity. It doesn’t actually adhere to legends or canon, making this an unreliable source for a supremacy quote.

The rest of the quotes (which aren’t many) predate 2008 and later which introduces new scaling points such as all of the Muur stuff, Exar Kun’s absorbing of Freedon Nadd’s spirit and being able to obliterate him specifically due to his own power and more. Therefore, these quotes cannot be the arbiter of the data points I presented as there is no way for them to take these into account the new scaling points and thus soft retcon something that outright occurred later.
---
To summarize:

- Ragnos’ inherent nature of being and overall sphere of power he is often placed in is far beyond what Dooku is capable of defeating
- Ragnos, even if he was less powerful than Dooku, would still be fully capable of winning an encounter between the latter and himself via hax
- Ragnos’ vast inferiors already wield top tier or near top tier power relative to the prequel trilogy
- Ragnos is very much capable of replicating JA Exar Kun’s accomplishments without the latter’s weaknesses that allowed him to be defeated in the first place
- The Maul/TPM Sidious/Plagueis dynamic doesn’t work in the way you’ve proposed, and none of them can bind Marka anyway
- From here, the last thing holding your argument together was the ROTS Sidious supremacy quotes. Ragnos is able to break out of the few that can be applied to him under the CC meta, leaving you without an argument, and me with three arguments that each require different obstacles to overcome
- I could go more in depth with Maul and the Jedi masters or Dooku's relation to ROTS Sidious in terms of power if need be, but I don't feel it's needed here