Kas'im vs Qui-Gon Jinn

Vaelias wrote:

VictreebelVictr wrote:Exactly, so the dude that made the source stated that it is debatable.

Cool.

LOOOL at Leland Chee making the sources

I meant to say "endorsed" rather than "made," but I am sure you know what I meant.

SnowxElf wrote:

Vaelias wrote:

SnowxElf wrote:

Vaelias wrote:

SnowxElf wrote:The Maul quote is clearly hyperbolic, not a lot different than the Bane quote in fact

Jinn wins still

more than just one quote, I think the very existence of multiple quotes saying the same thing is proof enough that the quotes are true everything else aside.

Not really, we know Maul is not more powerful than Sidious - so quote debunked. Yes, he is one of the most skilled duelist in history that was never in question.

Obviously the quote doesn't include Sidious, so quote not debunked at all, your response was completely irrelevant

If we take the deadlier/powerful quotes at face value, which you're doing, then yes, it would include Sidious. Which is the point, they're clearly hyperbolic. The quotes don't say Sidious is excluded.

Well TPM would be more powerful than pre TPM iterations of Sidious, but the quotes dont Include Sidious cos he isn't 'back' like Maul is given no one knows of his existence

Vaelias offering quality contributions without insulting others yet again, I see.

says the man who muted me cuz he couldnt take some trash talking

BreakofDawn wrote:Vaelias offering quality contributions without insulting others yet again, I see.

Can't tell if being sarcastic or not.

17 y/o Maul while extremely injured, emaciated and sleep deprived nearly killed Sheev in a duel. Within weeks his base power level was above that state of Force rage and without the stamina issues. At that point he still only had a taste of the power he would have in the future according to his future self (in the journal).

Then in TPM it's said Maul is fighting better than ever before. This includes earlier in TPM where he and Jinn had a roughly even fight (with Jinn losing due to being overall inferior in Force reserves and stats). At this time he was outfighting Jinn + Kenobi at the same time, and also outfought the best versions of each individually, and those versions are also likely above Tatooine Jinn. So what we have is:

Naboo Maul > Peak Jinn / Rage Kenobi / Base Jedi duo / Tatooine Maul > Tatooine Jinn >>> Standard 17 y/o Maul > Hypori Rage Maul who nearly killed 37BBY Sheev.

Also given all of Maul's accolades as of TPM about having unparalleled lightsaber skills which include those from Sheev himself and OOU sources Maul might be a better duelist than TPM Sheev as well as pre-TPM Sheev.

Also in terms of how movie power levels work, two opponents can be close enough in power that it requires them to resort to lightsaber dueling to resolve their fight (Yoda and Dooku).

As for the deadlier than ever quote, all it means is that Maul is evidence that the Sith are deadlier than ever. That doesn't mean Maul is above Plagueis or Sidious, because neither of them revealed themselves to the Jedi. It does mean that Maul is deadlier than any Sith before him who revealed himself to the Jedi.

Anyway, we know Sidious is more powerful than Maul thanks to the feat where he TKs a lightsaber around Maul's body faster than he can perceive, and also supremacy accolades, and we know Sheev and Plagueis are peers. So that means you can stack Sidious and Plagueis on top of whatever supremacy accolades Maul has.

Another observation is that Sidious/Plagueis' power is superior to Maul's lightsaber skills.

Sidious/Plagueis' power > Maul > all pre-Banite Sith.

Also if I'm right in thinking that Maul's best attribute is his disproportionate lightsaber/augmentation skill, that means that on the basis of that he would defeat any prior Sith. And that means that Sheev and Plagueis can defeat any contemporary or prior Sith purely on the basis of overpowering them. And also that Maul would defeat any pre-Banite Sith with use of his lightsaber alone.

Back to the thing about Force power/dueling I mentioned with the Yoda and Dooku example. If Maul is above any prior Sith on the basis of physical combat alone, and Sidious/Plagueis are above that in terms of their raw Force power, that means that their power transcends the power-closeness-lightsaber-resorting standard set by Yoda and Dooku.

Which means that while normally, if someone was close enough to them in power, they could resolve it with dueling, instead of that, any opponent they fight will be wiped out by their power even if they are so close to them as duelists that it would be an eternal stalemate, because Sidious and Plagueis have prodigious Force power in the same way Maul has prodigious dueling skill.

So in a nutshell then.

Sidious/Plagueis power > Maul dueling skill > Maul power ~ Sidious/Plagueis dueling > any pre-Banite Sith. Even if you want to say that all of Maul's supremacy quotes encompass his dueling skill (even though I'm sure he has a quote saying he's more powerful than prior Sith), prior Sith would still need to overcome the gap between Sidious' power and Maul's dueling abilities.

Happy new year everyone.

Well TPM would be more powerful than pre TPM iterations of Sidious, but the quotes dont Include Sidious cos he isn't 'back' like Maul is given no one knows of his existence

As for the deadlier than ever quote, all it means is that Maul is evidence that the Sith are deadlier than ever. That doesn't mean Maul is above Plagueis or Sidious, because neither of them revealed themselves to the Jedi. It does mean that Maul is deadlier than any Sith before him who revealed himself to the Jedi.

I understand your points but I am not sure that the quotes only applies to Sith that revealed themselves. The quotes seem to be from an omniscient point of view and not limited to only the Jedi's knowledge.

It's not mutually exclusive. Maul can be proof the Sith are deadlier than ever without being superior to Sidious and Plagueis, because they can also be proof the Sith are deadlier than ever.

It would be different if the Jedi had seen Sidious and Plagueis, and then seen Maul, because then Sidious and Plagueis would bound under the "ever." But they haven't "ever" been seen by the Jedi as their Sith selves or in a combat-context.

It doesn't matter that it's an omniscient quote (it is btw), because if so, what it's saying is that Maul revealing himself to the Jedi is an example of proof that the Sith are deadlier than ever. That doesn't preclude Sidious doing the same (which he would since he's more powerful than Maul).

It's simply a case of semantics, there's no way to get around it.

The Found wrote:17 y/o Maul while extremely injured, emaciated and sleep deprived nearly killed Sheev in a duel. Within weeks his base power level was above that state of Force rage and without the stamina issues. At that point he still only had a taste of the power he would have in the future according to his future self (in the journal).

So, according to your logic, Maul should be > Plagueis? You are also placing Jinn on a Tenebrous level?

If this Maul "supremacy" quote were to not exist, would Maul or Jinn be placed nearly as high as you are assuming them to be?

Given Qui-Gon was powerful enough to perform casual Midichlorian Manipulation?

Yes.

HeartoftheForce wrote:Given Qui-Gon was powerful enough to perform casual Midichlorian Manipulation?

Yes.

When did he do that? Do you have a scan or a citation?

Qui-Gon Jinn.

I still like Kas'im more than Jinn. The outcome is entirely speculative of course we don't know how a real fight would play out as with most hypothetical SW matches. Kas'im seems to be a warrior still in or near his physical prime but at his mental apex, while Jinn is slightly past it with notable issues with more agile and dexterous opponents. It's not just Maul who gave him issues with his nimbleness, Sing also had him floored. I can see either taking it in a number of different scenarios, but Kas'im is the betting favorite. Scaling is overrated as well imo. We've seen top tier fighters struggle with limited opposition all the time including Jinn for anyone who's read the JA series.

Jinn can take 20 Banes let alone Kas'im simultaneously

Kas'im ragdolls, he already tanked a spine shattering tk wave that didn't lose energy even though it traveled like 10 meters or more.

Vengean wrote:Kas'im ragdolls, he already tanked a spine shattering tk wave that didn't lose energy even though it traveled like 10 meters or more.

Both Bane and Kas'im were on the extremely powerful nexus of Lehon at the time of this feat, so I doubt Kas'im could have shielded himself outside of it.

Maul should be >> Bane, so Jinn's performance against him (Post-Prime) should be enough to give him the victory.

VictreebelVictr wrote:

Vengean wrote:Kas'im ragdolls, he already tanked a spine shattering tk wave that didn't lose energy even though it traveled like 10 meters or more.

Both Bane and Kas'im were on the extremely powerful nexus of Lehon at the time of this feat, so I doubt Kas'im could have shielded himself outside of it.

Maul should be >> Bane, so Jinn's performance against him (Post-Prime) should be enough to give him the victory.

Number 1 rule of debating...

Don't listen to a word Vengean says

Or the Maul supremacy quote.

VictreebelVictr wrote:Or the Maul supremacy quote.

Maul supremacy quote is a binding source, Vengean's TOR wanking words aren't

I'm wondering how close this is. Obviously Kas'im's skill alone would probably prove enough to challenge Qui GIn in terms of a pure lightsaber duel, but Jinn's accolades win it out for me.