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BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
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By what extent is Caedus more powerful than Vader?  - Page 2 Empty Re: By what extent is Caedus more powerful than Vader?

on April 29th 2020, 3:28 pm


Heir to the Empire wrote:He landed and turned back toward the Sail Barge, hand extended for the lightsaber Artoo had just sent arcing towards him.

It never reached him. Even as he stood there waiting for it, the weapon changed direction, curving back towards the other end of the Sail Barge. Frantically, Luke reached out for it with the Force; but to no avail. The lightsaber continued its flight-

And came to rest in the hand of a slender woman standing alone at the top of the barge. 

Luke even notes later on, that this is a possible past. It is what would have happened had Mara made it onto the barge, Luke himself acknowledges it:

Heir to the Empire wrote:The first time, years ago, the cave had spun him an image of a possible future. This time, he now knew, it had shown him a possible past. "You would have succeeded," he said quietly. 

You said it yourself: Mara at this point in time can draw upon the Emperor's power:

By what extent is Caedus more powerful than Vader?  - Page 2 49372110


Most courtiers in the imperial Palace did not even realize that Mara was anything more than a pretty decoration. But Mara Jade trained in combat alongside the imperial Royal Guard and was schooled in infiltration techniques by the Emperor's spymasters. From the Emperor's advisors she learned the art of political intrigue. And from the Emperor himself, Mara Jade learned to develop her Force powers. She learned to listen for his telepathic voice," even across the galaxy, and to draw strength from his own vast reserves of power.

So the best you can take from this is that a considerably amped Mara could intercept a surprised Luke and briefly overpower his grip when he tried, too late, to increase the strength of it. 


Now, we all know that Mara can draw upon the power of the Emperor as of ROTJ, so perhaps, you might say, this is unreliable. Except, we know that Lumiya circa ROTJ is the most powerful female in the Empire:

By what extent is Caedus more powerful than Vader?  - Page 2 Image0

It's pretty clear that the gap between the two wasn't that big:


Fact File #27 wrote:Slim and lithe, intelligent and astute, she[Mara] was one of the most formidable people to ever serve Emperor Palpatine.

Fact File #27 wrote:Regarded by many as a mere dalliance of the Emperor, Jade was in fact one of his most powerful aides.

The New Essential Guide to Characters wrote:The Empire's deadliest agent married to the Rebel Alliance's greatest hero. The irony is thick, but many on both sides relish the symbolism.
As Luke Skywalker's wife and one of the few Jedi Masters of the New Jedi Order, Mara Jade finds it hard to stay out of the public's eye.

So at best you can argue her growth was comparable to Lumiya's while also being initially more deadly as an agent and combatant.


We all know that Mara is superior to Lumiya as of her demise in Legacy of the ForceSacrifice. We literally see her win the fight until there's outside interference:

I don't see what this shows. Mara is more skilled - which fits with her accolade of "the Empire's deadliest agent" - and she was already comparable to Lumiya. 

Since we're using Lumiya, you're going to need to prove Lumiya is even remotely comparable to Vader. Luke lost to her the first time when he lacked familiarity with her weapon, and later handily defeated her. He also didn't think she was comparable to Vader:


She used to style herself the lady of the Sith...after Emperor Palpatine and my father were no longer around to slap her down for presumption

So far, all you've proved is more than likely amped Mara Jade > a surprised Luke who didn't expect resistance, and that she's > a stronger Lumiya than the one who was stronger than her in saber combat, who in turn is not comparable to ROTJ Luke or Vader.
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce
Level One
Level One

By what extent is Caedus more powerful than Vader?  - Page 2 Empty Re: By what extent is Caedus more powerful than Vader?

on April 30th 2020, 6:36 am
Vader and Caedus are pretty even honestly.

Also totally guys, Luke dying when Mara was on the barge had everything to do with her being more powerful and not with losing his lightsaber while being surrounded by guards + Boba Fett. Which he struggled to deal with alone.
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

By what extent is Caedus more powerful than Vader?  - Page 2 Empty Re: By what extent is Caedus more powerful than Vader?

on April 30th 2020, 10:24 am
You said it yourself: Mara at this point in time can draw upon the Emperor's power:

So the best you can take from this is that a considerably amped Mara could intercept a surprised Luke and briefly overpower his grip when he tried, too late, to increase the strength of it. 

Blue Text - This very line makes it almost immediately clear you didn't read my argument in its entirety. Mara draws off of Sidious' power, yes, but as I've substantiated through a scaling chain, she outgrows that. Prime Mara > Prime Lumiya > Sheev-Amped-Lumiya > Sheev-Amped-Mara > ROTJ Luke ~ Vader. 


Violet Text - The fact that Mara overpowers his telekinesis to the point where Luke can't even briefly make it a tug-of-war, as compared to the saber flying into Mara's hands when Luke is "frantically" reaching out with the force to pull the saber back towards himself means that (A) Luke has enough time to muster his TK, momentary surprise aside, and (B) Mara's superiority to Luke is great enough at this time that she can overpower his TK to the point where it's not a contest. Luke being surprised is irrelevant. 



It's pretty clear that the gap between the two wasn't that big:

Which is irrelevant. The quote firmly establishes Sheev-Amped-Lumiya > Sheev-Amped-Mara. That's all I'm claiming, the margin of aforementioned superiority is irrelevant. 


I don't see what this shows. Mara is more skilled - which fits with her accolade of "the Empire's deadliest agent" - and she was already comparable to Lumiya. 

Since we're using Lumiya, you're going to need to prove Lumiya is even remotely comparable to Vader. Luke lost to her the first time when he lacked familiarity with her weapon, and later handily defeated her. He also didn't think she was comparable to Vader:

Please, learn to read, it'd be really helpful here. Lumiya is more powerful than Mara as of ROTJ when they both draw on the Emperor's power. Lumiya's prime, power-wise is during LOTF. Mara defeated Lumiya, and is generally more powerful. Thus, Mara is more powerful than herself circa ROTJ drawing on Sheev's power. As of ROTJ, as I've shown, Mara holds demonstrable superiority to Luke Skywalker. 

As for the Lumiya quote.. Luke's view of Vader is so overinflated that it's probably the least reliable character opinion in the mythos. Like, as of COPL, Luke believes Vader can oneshot him. So Lumiya not being comparable to someone that can oneshot Vader/ROTJ Luke? That's fine, because I'm not arguing Mara or Lumiya can oneshot Prime Vader, only that they're more powerful. Luke is factually Vader's equal in both power and skill as of Return of the Jedi. Mara is ROTJ Luke's superior. Therefore Mara is logically Vader's superior.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
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By what extent is Caedus more powerful than Vader?  - Page 2 Empty Re: By what extent is Caedus more powerful than Vader?

on April 30th 2020, 12:09 pm
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)

Violet Text - The fact that Mara overpowers his telekinesis to the point where Luke can't even briefly make it a tug-of-war, as compared to the saber flying into Mara's hands when Luke is "frantically" reaching out with the force to pull the saber back towards himself means that 
Wrong. First, let's look at what "frantically" actually means:


done in a hurried  way and in a state  of excitement  or confusion :
I've been working  frantically all week  to get it finished  on time .
I got home  to find  Lara frantically searching  for her keys .



[size=16][size=18]in a way that is almost  out of control  because of extreme  emotion , such as worry :


As the helicopter  flew  overhead , they waved  frantically, trying  to attract  its  attention .
[/size][/size]

Luke is completely blindsided by the opposing force acting against him in a plan he'd planned out to the minute detail. He panics and tries to retrieve the blade, but his surprise and shock makes it difficult to manifest his own ability.


(A) Luke has enough time to muster his TK, momentary surprise aside, 

This is R2 shooting the lightsaber:

By what extent is Caedus more powerful than Vader?  - Page 2 VlvOLg

Luke flips, lands, and draws the lightsaber down towards him, with the lightsaber crossing that distance in a matter of 3 and a half seconds. 

In the passage you posted, Luke is caught completely by surprise as his blade is in mid-air between the barge and the skiff. He then has two or three seconds at best to process A) an opposing force is acting against him, B) he is "frantically" trying to recover it and thus is not completely focused, and C) he's not resisting a weak force: Mara is tapping into an undefined amount of power. Bear in mind Sidious sent her there to retrieve Luke, so he'd be letting her tap into far more power than normal. He was overseeing the events:


By what extent is Caedus more powerful than Vader?  - Page 2 Rco00512 By what extent is Caedus more powerful than Vader?  - Page 2 Rco00611

So again: you have a completely blindsided Luke being surprised and having a couple of seconds to react to a Mara Jade seizing his lightsaber in mid-air while tapping directly into Sheev's reserves. In absolutely no way does this prove Sheev amped Mara > ROTJ Luke. Hell, as of ANH (before Vader's huge growth), Sheev and Vader both believed that Mara - with access to Sheev's reserves, remember - wouldn't be able to beat the Dark Woman, who Vader stomped in direct combat:

By what extent is Caedus more powerful than Vader?  - Page 2 Rco04111 By what extent is Caedus more powerful than Vader?  - Page 2 Rco04211

So, even assuming she grew more powerful (growth that can't be quantified during this period and was clearly not enough to ever threaten Vader), she would still almost certainly be below ANH Vader. 

All you have here is circumstantial and (frankly) weak scaling from Mara outmanoeuvring a completely blindsided Luke to claim she's even remotely comparable to ROTJ Luke or Vader, which is absolutely not true. She was far below him as of ANH. He then grew massively between ANH and ESB, and then grew noticeably again between ESB and ROTJ. You have no basis to claim Sheev amped Mara could repeat her feat against a prepared and focused Luke, especially since we have no way of knowing if Luke could have then retrieved his lightsaber since he'd have been killed shortly after (hence why he'd panic).


 (B) Mara's superiority to Luke is great enough at this time that she can overpower his TK to the point where it's not a contest. Luke being surprised is irrelevant. 

Are you being intentionally obtuse? If character A is completely blindsided by an opposing force acting against him, has a couple of seconds to react to said force while panicking and thus not focused (in doing so, he's not able to bring his full power to bear in time), how are you even possibly concluding that character A at his peak during this time period is below character B, who is not only incredibly amped but has the element of surprise and only needs to pull the hilt 50 or so metres?


Which is irrelevant. The quote firmly establishes Sheev-Amped-Lumiya > Sheev-Amped-Mara. That's all I'm claiming, the margin of aforementioned superiority is irrelevant. 

Actually, it's completely relevant. Lumiya might have returned "stronger than ever", but that's really not saying much beyond that she's more powerful than before. Assuming she's slightly albeit noticeably stronger than before, all that shows is that Mara has advanced to a level where she can match a character who Vader can "slap down" whenever he wants. 


Please, learn to read, it'd be really helpful here. 

The irony of you telling someone to read when you're deliberately misinterpreting the text to do ridiculous mental gymnastics is probably the funniest thing I've seen all day. 


Lumiya is more powerful than Mara as of ROTJ when they both draw on the Emperor's power. 

Which I never disputed, only clarified the gap wasn't big at all.


Lumiya's prime, power-wise is during LOTF. 

Again, something I never disputed.


 Mara defeated Lumiya, and is generally more powerful.

Yes, she defeated her in saber combat:



Maybe she had, because Lumiya teetered for a second but came right back. Mara sprang horizontally from a crouch and cannoned into Lumiya's legs with all the power she could muster from the Force. She hit solid durasteel. Blood filled her mouth but she couldn't feel a thing—yet. Clinging to Lumiya's knees with one arm, denying her the space to swing the whip, she brought her down like a felled tree before smashing her head into the woman's face.
And that hurt. Oh yes, Mara felt that. She'd caught not Lumiya's nose but the cybernetic jaw, and it cut deep into her forehead. Fighting on pure reflex now, part stunned, she killed the lightsaber blade for a second and held the hilt like a dagger, stabbing it down into Lumiya's chest before flicking the energy back on. Lumiya pulled to the side as the blade punched through flesh. Mara smelled it. She flicked off the blade to pull back again, triumphant.

How does being more skilled automatically make Mara more powerful at this point when we already knew she was more skilled as early as the Rebellion era? By this logic, KOTET chapter 8 Outlander is more powerful than Unchained Vaylin because he's more skilled despite us having explicit confirmation that this is not the case.

Provide quotes, accolades or comparisons and I'll happily concede on this, or explain how Mara having the edge in skill then performing Tràkata to win makes her more powerful.


As for the Lumiya quote.. Luke's view of Vader is so overinflated that it's probably the least reliable character opinion in the mythos. 

Ah yes, the old "Luke reveres Vader so he must be exaggerating" argument. 

Like, as of COPL, Luke believes Vader can oneshot him.

Are you really using, as an example, a book George Lucas approved point by point (including the Geth fight and the author's take on Vader vs Luke) and personally endorsed?


We went through George Lucas and he signed off on each point. When he got done, he wrote me a little note that said, “Great job, I can’t wait to see it!” It was that easy to get through the approval process. Of course, once you write the story, they read to make sure you wrote what you said you would, and it’s up to their standards. Really, it was a painless process that was pretty much all of my creation and I just felt lucky and grateful George Lucas signed off on it!

-

But it is true. That’s the one thing I got hit with. You can’t judge fan reaction to a certain degree. I did get a fan letter from George Lucas! 

-

I thought a really interesting implication in TCOPL was that Luke realized that Darth Vader and Palpatine never sought to kill him, facing the full brunt of the dark side when the Nightsisters attack and pretty much feeling completely helpless.

The “contagonist”, which is what Darth Vader is called, there’s a person who works for an evil power, a dark lord who has his or her own agenda. It seemed obvious to me that Darth Vader looked at turning Luke very early on. Luke had never felt the full force of what the dark side is, at least in episodes 5 and 6. He was pulling his punches! That seemed pretty obvious to me. The idea that, “Gosh, somebody who doesn’t care for me at all who is with the dark side is trying to destroy me!” just seems sort of a logical next step in Luke’s character arc.



Also, Lucas considers it an official reference for discussing Leia:


In order to compile this article on Leia's life the main references used were the Star Wars Trilogy books by George Lucas, The Courtship of Princess Leia by Dave Wolverhampton and several comics produced by Dark Horse Comics; all these references are official and have been read by George Lucas.


So we have a George Lucas reviewed, approved and endorsed book (one he even read and praised) that says Vader can stomp Luke, and a source confirming he views the book as a legitimate source of information on Leia, Han and other characters. If this is your only evidence for Luke overrating Vader, I'll admit I'm disappointed.



So Lumiya not being comparable to someone that can oneshot Vader/ROTJ Luke?

...What?



 That's fine, because I'm not arguing Mara or Lumiya can oneshot Prime Vader, only that they're more powerful.

Which you've yet to prove.


Luke is factually Vader's equal in both power and skill as of Return of the Jedi. 

By what extent is Caedus more powerful than Vader?  - Page 2 2864379292


Mara is ROTJ Luke's superior. Therefore Mara is logically Vader's superior.

Neither of which you've proved. Despite your telling me that I should "learn to read", it's you who can't seem to understand basic context and circumstances and how they can affect a character. Ironic really, considering some of the characters you support.


Last edited by BoD on April 30th 2020, 8:39 pm; edited 2 times in total
The lord of hunger
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By what extent is Caedus more powerful than Vader?  - Page 2 Empty Re: By what extent is Caedus more powerful than Vader?

on April 30th 2020, 1:01 pm
By what extent is Caedus more powerful than Vader?  - Page 2 1019854026
The Fallen Warrior
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By what extent is Caedus more powerful than Vader?  - Page 2 Empty Re: By what extent is Caedus more powerful than Vader?

on April 30th 2020, 1:01 pm
By what extent is Caedus more powerful than Vader?  - Page 2 1076326320

That was thorough, props BoD
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By what extent is Caedus more powerful than Vader?  - Page 2 Empty Re: By what extent is Caedus more powerful than Vader?

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