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HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
Level Six

Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu

December 22nd 2020, 7:56 pm
Yes, the only character Krayt might beat is Nihilus.
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu

December 23rd 2020, 12:04 am
Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 1076326320

We have a quote saying Muur is "perhaps" stronger than Krayt leading up to their fight, which is never confirmed one way or the other explicitly, 

No: 

On Had Abbadon, in the Deep Core, Krayt confronted Skywalker a second time. But a third Force-user possessed powers that outshone them both. Karness Muur, an ancient Sith spirit, blasted Krayt with overpowering energy, sending him over a cliff to the rocks below. (Source: Insider #113: Profile: Darth Krayt)

This quote below is referring to Krayt and Muur, which would still imply late Vong Krayt > Wyyrlok:

But Emperor Krayt might no longer be the most powerful Sith lord in the galaxy. Will Cade and Celeste have another Sith to defeat... or join?
Source: Legacy 31: Vector: Part 12 (Publisher's Summary)

but judging by the fact he did not show a decisive advantage while Krayt was on his deathbed I'd say it's more likely than not that he's inferior.

1) They barely even fought 
2) A large portion of the fight Krayt was just fighting Morne because she kept regaining control over her body again. 
3) Muur wasn’t even aiming to kill Krayt for much of the fight because he wanted to steal Krayt’s body.

But yes earlier Krayt is implied to be > Muur. 

Now, considering the fact that we've just established that Wyyrlok held out decently against Krayt in a duel (his whole one page of dueling against a serious Krayt would indicate he's much better than Cade losing in two comic panels to a toying Krayt

The panels showing the fight between Cade and Krayt are cut in half by other panels. So no, that doesn’t necessarily indicate Wyyrlok is much better than Cade.

Wyyrlok as duelist (and in other areas) doesn't have much going for him other than the fact he's one of the best of his time. People with better accolades, like Kit Fisto, were stated to be among the best duelist ever produced in the entire history of the Jedi order; this is a much better accolade than just being one of the best during an era. I see no reason why Wyyrlok is not fodder to Sheev or Yoda. 

@The Found
The Reborn Emperor
The Reborn Emperor
Moderator | Champion of Darkness
Moderator | Champion of Darkness

Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu

December 23rd 2020, 1:09 am
@SnowxElf Fixed your tag. If the user has a space in their name, place quotation marks around the name; so @"example"
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu

December 23rd 2020, 6:40 am
Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 CVJId8A

Muur as a spirit in Morne is > Krayt, Muur in a host he can control is even more powerful.
Vaelias
Vaelias

Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu

December 23rd 2020, 9:38 am
@LadyKulvax wrote:Three quotes confirm Muur as a spirit, by himself, is very possibly > Krayt. In the actual comics he's able to easily dominate Krayt, his equal Cade, as well as Azlyn Rae, Shado Vao, Darth Maladi, etc. simultaneously.

Welcome to reality. Krayt is perma-capped by Ludo Kressh.

Muur definitely grows throughout the years and isn't that strong without Celeste Morne
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu

December 23rd 2020, 9:46 am
Muur definitely grows throughout the years

Source?

and isn't that strong without Celeste Morne

Based on?
Vaelias
Vaelias

Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu

December 23rd 2020, 9:55 am
@BreakofDawn wrote:
Muur definitely grows throughout the years

Source?

and isn't that strong without Celeste Morne

Based on?

Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 Image010


there's no way someone who scales above Kenobi could be weaker than one of the Exiles (if that exile hasn't grown) when the Exiles are multiple one shot gaps below Kenobi

theres nothing stating hes > Krayt without Morne that isnt a non canon author quote or a blog
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu

December 23rd 2020, 9:59 am
there's no way someone who scales above Kenobi could be weaker than one of the Exiles (if that exile hasn't grown) when the Exiles are multiple one shot gaps below Kenobi

"More dangerous" doesn't automatically translate to "more powerful". For example, it can refer to Celeste and her gradually losing control over Muur, who begins to take control and so the threat becomes more dangerous. Also, how does he scale over Kenobi?
Vaelias
Vaelias

Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu

December 23rd 2020, 10:32 am
@BreakofDawn wrote:
there's no way someone who scales above Kenobi could be weaker than one of the Exiles (if that exile hasn't grown) when the Exiles are multiple one shot gaps below Kenobi

"More dangerous" doesn't automatically translate to "more powerful". For example, it can refer to Celeste and her gradually losing control over Muur, who begins to take control and so the threat becomes more dangerous. Also, how does he scale over Kenobi?

cos Hett fights decently against Kenobi, he'd be in the power gap below him at least or he would have been one-shot, and no Kenobi would have grown much weaker up to his fight with Hett. yes the light side presence weakened so he would have been a bit weaker but Hett also would have been comparably weaker, but Kenobi was still insane after his exile


this is supported by the fact that he demonstrates incredible TK lifting small mountains casually
Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 Img-9510
Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 Img-9011
Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 Img-9012

Hett then grows massively when he learns from the ancients Holocrons and becomes Darth Krayt


then youve got him fighting Abeloth with Luke, and described as Lukes dark counterpart, don't try tell me he's weaker than the Exiles lol that's ridiculous
The Found
The Found

Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu

December 23rd 2020, 4:40 pm
@SnowxElf wrote:Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 1076326320

We have a quote saying Muur is "perhaps" stronger than Krayt leading up to their fight, which is never confirmed one way or the other explicitly, 

No: 

On Had Abbadon, in the Deep Core, Krayt confronted Skywalker a second time. But a third Force-user possessed powers that outshone them both. Karness Muur, an ancient Sith spirit, blasted Krayt with overpowering energy, sending him over a cliff to the rocks below. (Source: Insider #113: Profile: Darth Krayt)

This quote below is referring to Krayt and Muur, which would still imply late Vong Krayt > Wyyrlok:

But Emperor Krayt might no longer be the most powerful Sith lord in the galaxy. Will Cade and Celeste have another Sith to defeat... or join?
Source: Legacy 31: Vector: Part 12 (Publisher's Summary)

but judging by the fact he did not show a decisive advantage while Krayt was on his deathbed I'd say it's more likely than not that he's inferior.

1) They barely even fought 
2) A large portion of the fight Krayt was just fighting Morne because she kept regaining control over her body again. 
3) Muur wasn’t even aiming to kill Krayt for much of the fight because he wanted to steal Krayt’s body.

But yes earlier Krayt is implied to be > Muur. 

Now, considering the fact that we've just established that Wyyrlok held out decently against Krayt in a duel (his whole one page of dueling against a serious Krayt would indicate he's much better than Cade losing in two comic panels to a toying Krayt

The panels showing the fight between Cade and Krayt are cut in half by other panels. So no, that doesn’t necessarily indicate Wyyrlok is much better than Cade.

Wyyrlok as duelist (and in other areas) doesn't have much going for him other than the fact he's one of the best of his time. People with better accolades, like Kit Fisto, were stated to be among the best duelist ever produced in the entire history of the Jedi order; this is a much better accolade than just being one of the best during an era. I see no reason why Wyyrlok is not fodder to Sheev or Yoda. 

@The Found
Lets make this quick since you seem partial to ignoring large chunks of my posts.

1. Muur "outshining" Krayt in one circumstantial fight does not = him being more powerful. Moreover it would be inadmissible for the sake of comparison anyway because Krayt in Vector is exponentially more weakened by his disease than he is even in the earlier portions of Legacy post-time skip.

2. "Might" is a word I don't need to tell you the definition of, and I already explained this a post ago.

3. Insofar as they did fight Muur, not even at the end when him and Celeste worked together perfectly, did not show any advantage. And it works both ways considering that Krayt started taunting Morne and trying to convert her to the dark side.

Also the bifurcation between Morne and Muur people draw is weird. Technically its always Morne fighting while drawing on a varying amount of Muur's power. These aren't even feats for Muur. Not that any of this is news because it was described and detailed into the ground with every relevant sourcebook like 2 years ago so I assume most people talk about the fight with that in mind when they say Muur and Morne interchangeably, but maybe you aren't privy to any of these details.

Point being, if Muur was overtly superior you would expect that Morne + Muur could handle a
severely weakened Krayt. Guess not. Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 2266747095

4. Since you've used a publisher summary quote and author quotes, how do you reconcile the fact there are both publisher summary and author quotes stating that Krayt in Legacy: War is at the height of his powers? That would mean he is objectively more powerful than his Apocalypse self, who you seem to have conceded earlier is more than powerful enough to handle Windu. Per your own system (providing you stay consistent) Reborn Krayt indeed wins here.

5. It doesn't matter if the panels were cut as presumably the most relevant parts of the fight were what is shown on panel. And what we were shown was Krayt casually handing Cade his ass. The fact that Krayt was casual about it also makes the point about fight duration and off-panel fighting irrelevant. If Krayt could win so casually that means were he fighting more earnestly the fight would have ended a lot quicker. If the fight was prolonged due to Krayt's lax approach that doesn't make it a close fight.

6. Surely instead of saying that Wyyrlok sucks because he has nothing going for him (which he does but as we established by now you don't like reading, making logical arguments or observing evidence), therefore Krayt sucks because Wyyrlok contended with him... you would observe that Krayt is freakishly powerful and then bump Wyyrlok up accordingly for doing well against him... you know.. like we do with every other character?

The problem is, people like you and apparently many people on this forum start with the axiom that Krayt and co. suck, and seek out any positive evidence for that claim you can find. And it doesn't seem to matter if you make 1000 dogshit arguments in favour of that worldview because you might always get lucky with argument 1001. You can always reshuffle the deck of methodology until you draw a hand that fits your preconceived worldview. So really, it makes little difference what evidence I present at this point because people are going to continue lowballing/trolling unabashedly, I'm going to keep showing up once in a while to remind you that you're retarded for doing it, and the cycle will continue from there.

Glad we got all that cleared up. Merry Christmas.
The Eternal
The Eternal

Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu

December 23rd 2020, 4:44 pm
Snowxdolling
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu

December 23rd 2020, 5:48 pm
Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 Rco01112
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu

December 23rd 2020, 7:37 pm
So Krayt still dies, nice to know.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu

December 23rd 2020, 8:03 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Darth Sidious is canonically > Krayt Reborn:

Star Wars Databank wrote:Darth Sidious is the most powerful Sith of modern times.

Darth Sidious at this point is also magnitudes beyond himself as of Vector:

The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded wrote:Resurrected in a youthful clone body, Palpatine does not reveal himself immediately. Studying the dark side of the Force to become more powerful, his education results in three manifestos: The Book of Anger, The Weakness of Inferiors, and The Creation of Monsters.

Dark Empire Sourcebook wrote:Soon he was ready to strike. Fully healed and in greater control of the Dark Side than ever, he finally acted to end the Mutiny.

Dark Empire Sourcebook wrote:His Force skills have increased significantly in the six years since he was last seen in Return of the Jedi.

Handbook 3: Dark Empire wrote:Luke knew that without clones to inhabit, Palpatine's spirit would be consigned forever to the void. But Palpatine was able to transfer himself at the last moment. Within a new clone body, the Emperor was more powerful than ever.

Even ROTJ Darth Sidious is stronger than OT Muur-Morne:

Dark Empire Endnotes wrote:When the evil Emperor, Supreme Master of the Dark Side of the Force, turned the fullness of his malevolence against Luke, Anakin Skywalker suddenly awoke from the curse that had imprisoned him for so long...

Who is little different, if at all, to the Muur-Morne who by all evidence is >> Darth Krayt even without Morne's added power:

Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 CVJId8A

Given reborn Krayt can't even stomp Wyyyrlok III despite his claims to having multiplied his power, Windu being near par to ROTS Sheev wins.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu

December 23rd 2020, 8:26 pm
"Perhaps stronger than any other we've seen thus far in 'Legacy'".

"Muur-Morne >> Krayt even without Morne's added power."

I'm confused how that line of reasoning works.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu

December 23rd 2020, 8:35 pm
The quote literally says that if he can find a host he can really control then he'll finally be back to his full self. So his power is there but he can't fully realise it in a host that can resist him. So Muur is stronger in a less mentally strong host body, and yet he's both demonstrated greater power than anyone else in Legacy and has other quotes stating that in Morne he's already showing powers that outshone both Krayt and his equal, Cade.

Not to mention all those quotes as a side-note make it outright clear that Muur is definitely > Wyyrlok III and even Wyyrlok III is able to give a good fight to reborn Krayt.

The evidence is overwhelming, Windu massacres.


Last edited by LadyKulvax on December 23rd 2020, 8:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu

December 23rd 2020, 8:36 pm
@The Found

I never recall anywhere saying that people like Krayt and Wyyrlok suck. But Most top tier characters can easily murder most mid tiers (and that’s who I was frequently comparing Wyyrlok to - Sheev and Yoda).

Krayt Force pushing Cade isn’t really indicative of “casually owning” him. The few panels they fought on still doesn't necessitate that Wyyrlok is much better than Cade. Cade seemingly wasn’t much affected by Krayt’s force push and lightning barrage. At the end of the confrontation Cade mustered enough speed to Kill Krayt while Krayt was literally looking at him. Overall, how much ease Krayt had to defeat Cade is actually pretty dubious and it is hard to determine who is greater between Wyyrlok and Cade. Alot of your interpretation is based on wishful thinking that Krayt was “casually owning” Cade. Especially when the fight was protracted and broken into two parts which usually isn’t what an author would do to try to indicate a very one sided fight. 

To get back to the Muur vs Krayt duel. Again, Muur is stated stronger during this time and you keep denying the quote. With that out of the way, again, Muur's original intent was to steal Krayt's body but this changed after Krayt was stabbed by Azlyn. So Muur not walking all over Krayt doesn't mean he can't (not necessarily saying he can).

After I slay you and your minions, I will impale the Jedi and make Skywalker and his lackeys my Rakghoul slaves. Then, I will take Krayt’s mortal body as my own. (Karness Muur)


I could respond to more but I will stop here.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
Level Six

Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu

December 23rd 2020, 8:39 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
SnowxBased ragdolling ILS
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu

December 23rd 2020, 8:45 pm
@LadyKulvax wrote:The quote literally says that if he can find a host he can really control then he'll finally be back to his full self. So his power is there but he can't fully realise it in a host that can resist him. So Muur is stronger in a less mentally strong host body, and yet he's both demonstrated greater power than anyone else in Legacy and has other quotes stating that in Morne he's already showing powers that outshone both Krayt and his equal, Cade.

Not to mention all those quotes as a side-note make it outright clear that Muur is definitely > Wyyrlok III and even Wyyrlok III is able to give a good fight to reborn Krayt.

The evidence is overwhelming, Windu massacres.

The quote "literally says" that a Sith "perhaps stronger" than Krayt will be "let loose", indicating that it will be Muur at his full power rampaging across the galaxy, yet only "perhaps" is stronger than Krayt. Not entirely sure how you've come up with that interpretation,
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu

December 23rd 2020, 8:50 pm
@HellfireUnit wrote:ILS

Hhhmm it could be him, I never thought of that

Yeah I think it's him


Last edited by SnowxElf on December 23rd 2020, 10:38 pm; edited 2 times in total
The Adventurous Jedi
The Adventurous Jedi
Level Seven
Level Seven

Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu

December 23rd 2020, 9:06 pm
AP, if you want to throw around author quotes: how would you feel if I told you the very same author you're citing on the Muur stuff has said Krayt ~ Sidious?
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu

December 23rd 2020, 9:27 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:
@LadyKulvax wrote:The quote literally says that if he can find a host he can really control then he'll finally be back to his full self. So his power is there but he can't fully realise it in a host that can resist him. So Muur is stronger in a less mentally strong host body, and yet he's both demonstrated greater power than anyone else in Legacy and has other quotes stating that in Morne he's already showing powers that outshone both Krayt and his equal, Cade.

Not to mention all those quotes as a side-note make it outright clear that Muur is definitely > Wyyrlok III and even Wyyrlok III is able to give a good fight to reborn Krayt.

The evidence is overwhelming, Windu massacres.

The quote "literally says" that a Sith "perhaps stronger" than Krayt will be "let loose", indicating that it will be Muur at his full power rampaging across the galaxy, yet only "perhaps" is stronger than Krayt. Not entirely sure how you've come up with that interpretation,

By doing the obvious and reconciling it with what we see in source material and supplementary material.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu

December 23rd 2020, 9:30 pm
NotAA3 wrote:AP, if you want to throw around author quotes: how would you feel if I told you the very same author you're citing on the Muur stuff has said Krayt ~ Sidious?

I don't care, because beyond any clarifications of what he himself has written, it is just his opinion.
Vaelias
Vaelias

Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu

December 24th 2020, 9:16 am
all i see is people using authors opinions tbh.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt vs Mace Windu

December 24th 2020, 10:10 am
An author clarifying the intent and meaning behind something they have written is absolutely valid as it trumps any and all other views on any given matter. Unless hard-contradicted in other material. That's entirely different from them stating their opinions in general.
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