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Primarch
Primarch

Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane Empty Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane

December 12th 2020, 5:22 am
Bane as of DoE
The Fallen Knight
The Fallen Knight

Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane Empty Re: Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane

December 12th 2020, 5:55 am
I'd say Bane
Primarch
Primarch

Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane Empty Re: Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane

December 12th 2020, 6:47 am
Reasons?
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
Moderator
Moderator

Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane Empty Re: Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane

December 12th 2020, 8:52 am
The Exile
The Fallen Knight
The Fallen Knight

Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane Empty Re: Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane

December 12th 2020, 9:12 am
KingKopecz wrote:Reasons?
He seems more powerful
Primarch
Primarch

Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane Empty Re: Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane

December 12th 2020, 9:32 am
@“The Fallen Knight”
How does he seem more powerful? Meetra was able to defeat Traya who one-shot 3 Jedi masters. Bane was given a hard time by 2 Jedi masters and a fodder Jedi Knight.
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane Empty Re: Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane

December 12th 2020, 10:46 am
Meetra Surik is underestimated due to the fact that she lost to Darth Nyriss in a duel on Dromund Kaas. This is not sound judgement due to following factors:

1. The Emperor's powers corrupted Dromund Kaas to the extent that it became a world extremely strong in the Dark Side and even Luke Skywalker experienced problems on this world when he visited it at some point thousands of years later. Another consideration is that Count Dooku went as far as to purge all records of Dromund Kaas from the Jedi Archives in his time so that the Jedi cannot plunder and learn much from its history and secrets. Dromund Kaas was rediscovered many years later.

2. Darth Nyriss was a member of the Dark Council and one of the most powerful Sith in the galaxy by extension. Her skills with a Lightsaber were really good and her incredible speed was an advantage.

Meetra managed to cut down Darth Traya, Darth Sion, and Darth Nihilus on the other hand. Her victory over Darth Nihilus is circumstantial but not necessarily in the case of the other two.

Victory over Darth Sion would require an impressive command of Dun Möch besides matching his skills with a Lightsaber and enduring his Force powers, and Dun Möch can affect competent opponents. Galen Marek utilized Dun Möch to good effect against Darth Vader in a duel on Death Star for instance. Meetra's skills with a Lightsaber were incredible as well; her combat-applicable performance against the Imperial Guard was close to that of Lord Scourge (one of the finest swordsman in history) - the Imperial Guard were drawing on the power of the Emperor to tackle the intruders at the time, and Meetra also demonstrated extreme precision with a Lightsaber throw when she knocked Revan's Lightsaber from the grasp of the Emperor from afar.

Darth Traya had vast telekinetic abilities in addition to her proficiency in Force Drain. She immobilized 3 powerful Jedi Masters with her telekinetic abilities FIRST before destroying them with Force Drain. Therefore, Meetra should be strong enough to cope with vast telekinetic powers of the opponent in this case if she were to secure victory in this duel, and she managed to.

Even Revan was impressed by Meetra's accomplishments in KoTOR 2 and admitted that it was a path that he would not undertake alone but with powerful Bastila Shan on his side.

Let us consider Darth Bane now.

Darth Bane defeated Lord Ka'sim but on Lehon - another world much strong in the Dark Side. The former collapsed the building (or a part of it) on his opponent to secure his victory. This is his most impressive accomplishment in any duel.

When Darth Bane fought another capable opponent in Master Raskta Lsu, his orbalisks saved him from getting decapitated - this was a battle with up to 4 Jedi with Darth Zannah on his side (one of them - Master Worror Dormat was using Battle Meditation to assist his companions). Master Worrow was able to mortally wound Darth Bane with his defenses when he came after him although the Jedi also perished due to his injuries. Darth Bane was as good as dead but his apprentice saved him.

When Darth Bane challenged his own apprentice Darth Zannah to a duel, she vanquished him.

----

I would say that both can win depending upon the circumstances but Darth Bane does not have a clear advantage unless he is fighting on a world much strong in the Dark Side. Meetra have a good shot in an environment which does not hinder her in any capacity.


Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on December 12th 2020, 10:51 am; edited 2 times in total
The Fallen Knight
The Fallen Knight

Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane Empty Re: Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane

December 12th 2020, 10:47 am
KingKopecz wrote:@“The Fallen Knight”
How does he seem more powerful? Meetra was able to defeat Traya who one-shot 3 Jedi masters. Bane was given a hard time by 2 Jedi masters and a fodder Jedi Knight.
Different jedi

Why does Bane seem more powerful?

He has better hypes and feats. Not even Kaan was a match for Bane although he was powerful enough to telepathically affect the entire brotherhood from across the galaxy. Bane was powerful enough to destroy a temple. That's a vastly pre prime version of Bane. He also managed to nudge a moon.
Primarch
Primarch

Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane Empty Re: Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane

December 12th 2020, 11:44 am
@The Fallen Knight wrote:
Different jedi
Yes I know they’re different Jedi which I even addressed in my previous answer.

@The Fallen Knight wrote:
He has better hypes and feats. Not even Kaan was a match for Bane although he was powerful enough to telepathically affect the entire brotherhood from across the galaxy. Bane was powerful enough to destroy a temple. That's a vastly pre prime version of Bane. He also managed to nudge a moon.

A lot of these feats aren’t as impress as they seem at first. Bane was on a DS nexus when he destroyed the temple and the temple wasn’t even that large. This is the rough size of it:
Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane 39c1f610

Bane never nudged a moon. The ‘Bane of the Sith’ story is N-canon and even if it wasn’t, it’s still not even shown that he actually nudged it. He considered it and that’s about it.
xolthol
xolthol
Level Five
Level Five

Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane Empty Re: Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane

December 12th 2020, 12:07 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Siding with Bane. If I find enough time before the end of the year I will provide a case for him.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane Empty Re: Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane

December 12th 2020, 7:42 pm
Meetra Surik absolutely wins. IIRC The Echoes battle is stated to consist of all the strongest TOR characters and the dialogue confirms that Meetra was a serious threat to Vitiate outright.
CuckedCurry
CuckedCurry
Level Four
Level Four

Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane Empty Re: Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane

December 12th 2020, 7:57 pm
Glad to know huge Blue Togrutan student is such a combative beast Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane 3344068304
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane Empty Re: Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane

December 12th 2020, 8:00 pm
The Padawans who don't get up until later obviously aren't involved.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane Empty Re: Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane

December 12th 2020, 9:45 pm
@LadyKulvax wrote:Meetra Surik absolutely wins. IIRC The Echoes battle is stated to consist of all the strongest TOR characters and the dialogue confirms that Meetra was a serious threat to Vitiate outright.

When were either of these said, out of curiosity? I don't remember anything from them saying either of those things.

OT: Meetra. She was one of the longest lasting characters in the final battle, making it to the final fight with Tenebrae and hanging on throughout it without being put down like Thexan, Arcann and Senya.
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
Moderator
Moderator

Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane Empty Re: Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane

December 12th 2020, 10:03 pm
@BreakofDawn: The Exile didn't engage until much after Thexan, Arcann, and Senya did, though. Also, I'm fairly certain whether Thexan, Arcann, and Senya go down or not is dependent on your own abilities. You can watch gameplay walkthroughs where they're all still there by the time Tenebrae goes down.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane Empty Re: Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane

December 12th 2020, 10:22 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:@BreakofDawn: The Exile didn't engage until much after Thexan, Arcann, and Senya did, though. Also, I'm fairly certain whether Thexan, Arcann, and Senya go down or not is dependent on your own abilities. You can watch gameplay walkthroughs where they're all still there by the time Tenebrae goes down.

That's what I thought. My first run had Senya among the remaining fighters, whereas my second had her down. Not sure I agree that she didn't engage, though. Seems weird that her and Revan would just stand by.
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
Moderator
Moderator

Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane Empty Re: Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane

December 12th 2020, 10:30 pm
They engage at different stages.  Meetra definitely wasn't apart of the squad that fought Valkorion or Vitiate, though she was there for Tenebrae. However, it's possible that they were busy fighting other projections of Tenebrae off-screen, as we know he can manipulate the environment to teleport them away like that.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane Empty Re: Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane

December 12th 2020, 10:34 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:They engage at different stages.  Meetra definitely wasn't apart of the squad that fought Valkorion or Vitiate, though she was there for Tenebrae. However, it's possible that they were busy fighting other projections of Tenebrae off-screen, as we know he can manipulate the environment like that.

Hm, makes sense. I'd still favour her over Bane if she accomplished that and - in the final wave, when Tenebrae was really angry - managing to avoid being dominated by him until the very end when he unleashed his full power.
Rei
Rei

Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane Empty Re: Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane

December 12th 2020, 11:52 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:
Hm, makes sense. I'd still favour her over Bane if she accomplished that and - in the final wave, when Tenebrae was really angry - managing to avoid being dominated by him until the very end when he unleashed his full power.

That is more like will-power than actual Force power though. So I do not think you can use that to scale Meetra's combat power up.
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane Empty Re: Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane

December 13th 2020, 2:30 am
@Rei wrote:
@BreakofDawn wrote:
Hm, makes sense. I'd still favour her over Bane if she accomplished that and - in the final wave, when Tenebrae was really angry - managing to avoid being dominated by him until the very end when he unleashed his full power.

That is more like will-power than actual Force power though. So I do not think you can use that to scale Meetra's combat power up.

It is/was similar to the how Luke Skywalker and Darth Krayt fought Abeloth in "Beyond Shadows." The duo wasn't physically present in this battle, remember? When Luke noticed Abeloth, his instinctive reaction was to reach for his lightsaber but it wasn't there...

Satele Shan had become a gateway to "Beyond Shadows" of Valkorion by virtue of a PLAGUE which was in fact infiltration of her mind by an echo of Valkorion's immortal essence. Kira Carsen - being a Child of the Emperor - made it possible for her allies to access this gateway and confront Valkorion who was now attempting to recover his lost strength and transform Satele into his next VOICE. It turned into an all-compassing clash of willpower and strength insider her mind akin to how it would be in real.

At one point, the Tenebrae Form isolated The Alliance Commander to kill him only for Revan's spirit to intervene and drive him away. Revan's spirit assured The Alliance Commander that he is not alone in this battle and Valkorion will not be able to kill him. The spirits played a massive role in this battle and prevented Valkorion from killing any protagonist throughout.

If willpower was the only factor then Revan would have topped them all but this wasn't the case.

You can however say that spirits can be incredibly powerful manifestations in themselves.

Valkorion's immortal essence was his most powerful and dangerous aspect - the same nexus of energy that devastated a world in the realm of the living.
darthbane77
darthbane77

Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane Empty Re: Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane

December 13th 2020, 4:27 am
I could see an argument being made either way, Bane is probably the better swordsman though.
Rei
Rei

Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane Empty Re: Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane

December 13th 2020, 11:16 am
@S_W_LeGenD wrote:
It is/was similar to the how Luke Skywalker and Darth Krayt fought Abeloth in "Beyond Shadows." The duo wasn't physically present in this battle, remember? When Luke noticed Abeloth, his instinctive reaction was to reach for his lightsaber but it wasn't there...

Satele Shan had become a gateway to "Beyond Shadows" of Valkorion by virtue of a PLAGUE which was in fact infiltration of her mind by an echo of Valkorion's immortal essence. Kira Carsen - being a Child of the Emperor - made it possible for her allies to access this gateway and confront Valkorion who was now attempting to recover his lost strength and transform Satele into his next VOICE. It turned into an all-compassing clash of willpower and strength insider her mind akin to how it would be in real.

At one point, the Tenebrae Form isolated The Alliance Commander to kill him only for Revan's spirit to intervene and drive him away. Revan's spirit assured The Alliance Commander that he is not alone in this battle and Valkorion will not be able to kill him. The spirits played a massive role in this battle and prevented Valkorion from killing any protagonist throughout.

If willpower was the only factor then Revan would have topped them all but this wasn't the case.

You can however say that spirits can be incredibly powerful manifestations in themselves.

Valkorion's immortal essence was his most powerful and dangerous aspect - the same nexus of energy that devastated a world in the realm of the living.

I am not really sure what you are trying to address but there seems to be a confusion here. I was not talking about Tenebrae or his fight. I was saying that Meetra "managing to avoid being dominated" by Tenebrae is more of a representation of Meetra's willpower than her Force/Combat power.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane Empty Re: Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane

December 13th 2020, 11:19 am
@Rei wrote:
@BreakofDawn wrote:
Hm, makes sense. I'd still favour her over Bane if she accomplished that and - in the final wave, when Tenebrae was really angry - managing to avoid being dominated by him until the very end when he unleashed his full power.

That is more like will-power than actual Force power though. So I do not think you can use that to scale Meetra's combat power up.

No. There is a clear difference within the expansion when it's willpower, and when it's Force power.
Rei
Rei

Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane Empty Re: Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane

December 13th 2020, 11:37 am
@BreakofDawn wrote:
No. There is a clear difference within the expansion when it's willpower, and when it's Force power.

To be fair, I haven't played the expansion yet but it seemed a little confusing as to how resisting dominance of one's mind could be Force power rather than willpower.
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Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane Empty Re: Meetra Surik vs Darth Bane

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