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The Found
The Found

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3)

December 30th 2020, 4:54 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Peak Cade ~ Reborn Krayt

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 A22
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
Moderator
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SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3)

December 30th 2020, 3:03 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
While I appreciate the enthusiaism, please try to avoid bringing down other users and going off-topic
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Three
Level Three

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3)

December 30th 2020, 3:22 pm
@The Found wrote:
Peak Cade ~ Reborn Krayt

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 A22
funny part is that nobody knows if u agree or disagree with it
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
Moderator
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SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Empty 1/3

January 8th 2021, 11:14 am
Message reputation : 100% (7 votes)
Counters
I/LXIX. Kun


So this scan says that Exar Kun was once the most powerful and dangerous sith lord in history, which is interpreted as him being more powerful than all sith lords preceding him. However “most powerful” could refer to a number of things. 


This is a joke since I’m not going to go through every single point nor do I have that many counters. I do have a number of disagreements with the chains, however debating these are a waste of time and generally irrelevant to my real arguments. Since these will show why Pall is superior to Cade per direct comparison, therefore contradicting and disproving the indirect comparisons made by the chain. 
Karness Muur


This is probably the most direct comparison we have between Cade and Pall, so this will be my main focus. 


I. Counters


Like my opponent stated, Pall is > Muur. I’m glad we won’t have to debate that. However I will have to disagree on what's stated afterwards. 

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote wrote:“there’s no reason to use it to bind Muur below Pall as of this specific time period, due to the potential for Muurian mega growth in the interim.”

You have to prove such growth. 

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote wrote: the available evidence suggests Muur would absolutely crush Pall” 

Pall has confirmed superiority and unproven growth, so on the contrary.

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote wrote:“I see no reason to doubt it or the possibility that Muur grew.”

Doubt what? 

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote wrote:“admittedly the word ”dangerous” could refer to Muur’s increasing activity.”

And is there any cause to disagree with this interpretation? 

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote wrote:“the plausible explanation remains”

What makes Muur growing while trapped in stasis in a host that resists him plausible? 

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote wrote:“if you wish to dispute the idea that Muur grew in power, you must explain why, as the evidence favours my case.”

I have to explain why there’s no cause for growth, you have to explain why there is, that's just how debates work. Saying evidence favours your case is doubtful when the only thing you’re basing it on is claiming that “dangerous” refers to Muur’s personal power. 

But you also have to prove when Muur had opportunity to grow. Throughout Vector he spent most of the time in stasis or in completely desolated locations. Morne also was for the most part in control of her body, so he couldn’t have conducted alchemy or gained new knowledge

Further you have to show how he could have grown. Usually in Star Wars power is gained through experiences (for example clone wars for PT jedi), or increased knowledge (Dark Holocron for Exar Kun), through experiments (cybernetical/alchemical enhancement), amulets,  or through things such as life drain. Muur had none of these, nor any other way to grow. He doesn’t even have a body with midichlorians with potential he can expand upon. 


II. Dangerous


To support the notion of “grows more dangerous” referring not to power, I will show to both reasons why he’s more dangerous within the story: 

First off, its activity (as mentioned before). By the start of Vector, Zayne puts Morne and Muur in stasis, and then the oubliette ends up under water, so at the time there was no threat from him, then freezing over and being unable to be opened by non-forceusers. 
SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 XbivH3IOBkgP8LPUEdm-9rvquoeZ-3et0VcGdIvXnx-uVlTFHpKSrZJQidJ11G9WanSgPD-7dPYThK3a3plaobrD0fUOo2yh5imh

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Unknown


When told how long they were trapped, Muur even noted that the time was “wasted”, not something he’d say if he experienced significant power growth in the meantime. 
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SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 QI38c5_qPGEinQ1SBJlz2OLLBJLza2c5FMCkdHsodWSzoWFT4yzoJopdr80fPGQ1K1h4k9PDdeEqqGvtfHDnLdY903zNQHAT9-KV

Then they end up trapped on a moon for decades, again with Morne in control so no opportunity for growth. 


SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 9s7lBfFDImMmamuR-Jvgv2K0AnHkwtIxPmzmP2BX4FYLrSgWLg6jiFNtFPP5vjdV1eEp4OKs7tJrwNz7Y-QCw9-w3Ye6iYoEp9oP


Then she gets a ship, but spends all the time travelling empty space. 

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Roughly a century later, she takes control of an entire star destroyer

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 6ikCuNipZ8n-RGdRBa3zzUSY2QpdliYSwU_WDGz6iV7s2zfrtLhHusZC0XHiGkXKezm_3ESP3pk8OWowoU6VJe2kJQMGmBSUPAz8

And of course after this Muur outright fights the sith order, and nearly takes both Krayt and Cade as hosts. 

This is already more than enough to show why he’s growing more dangerous, but there actually is another point for Muur, that being that Muur is slowly taking full control of Morne. 


III. Power of the Talisman


Lastly, it's important to note that Muur’s power is not that of his spirit. It's the talisman. As shown by Morne being able to draw on the talisman’s power even when Muur is actively opposing her. 
SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 DtXxmhcQcxp_C56AC1th86gB1-lv-BdUW1App8jPGmmwpvEtZFYoEaXoB_egzLTijFAVxeK9ROUkEkAzDsjFd7q8QGhQRRsk6zki


It's not even Muur’s spirit in the typical sense, just his mind and essence. 


SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Unknown


This is outright compared to a holocron, the only difference being that he entered a talisman.

Essences in holocrons are far weaker than regular spirits, more an imprint than their actual being, usually unable to affect the living world at all. 

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Unknown

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Unknown


So we have: 

Living Muur >> (Potential) Spirit Muur >> Talisman Muur


Krayt vs Muur vs Cade
I. Muur vs Krayt

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote wrote:“During Legacy: Vector, Darth Krayt demonstrates he is - at the very least - comparable to Karness Muur in power“

Explain this sentence. Specifically the “very least” part. Which part of the fight shows Krayt’s superiority to Muur? 

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote wrote:“powered by Krayt’s own energies from Force Draining him” 
If your argument is that Legacy characters are unable to prevent force drain, its not in your favour. 

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote wrote:“despite all of the circumstances against him”

At most you mentioned two circumstances, one of which is an ability Pall has access to and isn’t circumstantial, the other is fair (being stabbed). So to correct that sentence: “despite being stabbed/despite this circumstance”.

Now let's look at the fight again: 

First (and most importantly), Muur’s host actively tried to resist and block him out. Said host (Morne) was noted to be capable of holding off Krayt single handedly for a time. She even manages to hold off the combined lightning of Krayt and Maladi before using the talisman to help her. Morne is specifically inferior to the talisman.
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Krayt then says he feels Morne starting to use the talisman, but that she still resists the dark side. 

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 NH_PiKxy4EFo-BOJ17yS6ygbRMNrOAKzldvapnqJmXiaj9gzYXEE2MNiVWJ1za6_QON1T4dGkAAs1600


Muur takes over, but Morne still would be actively resisting him. 

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote wrote:“yet only breaches Krayt’s defences with a charged blast”

There is nothing indicating Muur was charging up an attack. He fired lightning the moment Azlyn stabbed Krayt, and just kept on firing. We also do not see Krayt blocking Muur’s lightning beforehand, it goes right from Krayt firing lightning and Muur absorbing it to Muur firing as Azlyn stabbed him. It was the first offensive attack by Muur. 

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 TOU0Xu61IR_S5TtdV3mqPKOdagpLBM4iUH3-JbWO1NbnXZkQNV93QtzoHc8DyPbkT2JQrCpSmjgs1600


 It should also be noted that Muur’s attack didn’t just hit Krayt. The main focus of it was on him, but it was also a huge area of effect blast, which knocked over every sith, jedi and imperial knight in the area, The sith being so injured they had to be put into bacta tanks. 

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 PemTBAH8TzbeDA8YQEJ5txm_guHTTyepNE56sOZi_AfbgMz1yMDQIABspihGp8qjR0Q-r9RjfUcs1600


Positioning in the comic also shows another fact; Maladi was still next to Krayt, which means she was still helping in the 2v1. Which makes sense since we saw her nowhere after joining him. So even at the final stages Muur still was at a disadvantage. 
SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 E4VxVEYQI34-5C54tD_tOs_V41UfPQ1Ip9g9BF-_rFbBDm_8K38kea-liT9UzG6F4s9GHQ17H7ws1600

What makes this even more clearly in Muur’s favour is the fact that he has OOU sources supporting his superiority to Krayt.

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Unknown


I also want to bring out one final point for Muur’s superiority, one which is overlooked. Muur outright states that he has killed more powerful sith than Krayt before. This is usually looked at as exaggeration, but there is no cause to. Muur has on multiple occasions been able to gauge people’s power (even potential power) with accuracy, even ones in which few others do (for example, Vader never sensed that Leia was a force sensitive despite meeting her repeatedly). 

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 ATyn_plEZEZGVZTPC9lcam25fa61xH4Z1Lq0wVak2CNJinexjCaXq_0nSzu5gDTI0cV8Mfw_3iQs1600

So we have 

Living Muur >> (Potential) Spirit Muur >> Talisman Muur >> Morne < Vong Krayt + Maladi. 

And

Living Muur >>> unidentified sith > Vong Krayt


II. Talon 

This is a short point, but one I felt like pointing out due to the weight you put on it. You used Cade’s fights with Talon to indicate his growth, and I want to show how that works in Muur’s favour. First however I want to disagree with your assessment of their final fight: 

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote wrote:“here they exchange one piece of dialogue while bladelocked”

While the dialogue is shorter and the fight possibly as well, they were not bladelocked, since in between the panels they went from facing each other to Cade being behind her, indicating they at least dueled for a short amount of time. 

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote wrote:“Cade resists her TK”

This is not really accurate. She fired a tk blast at the floor and he just avoided it. She didn’t attempt to directly hit him. And even after being hit by said attack, she still manages to run away and warn Krayt. 

To compare, we’ll go back to Vector. Muur fires a lightning blast directly at Krayt. However a smaller part of it spreads out and hits everyone in the area. One of said people was Talon, and she, like everyone else, was one-shotted. 

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 E4VxVEYQI34-5C54tD_tOs_V41UfPQ1Ip9g9BF-_rFbBDm_8K38kea-liT9UzG6F4s9GHQ17H7ws1600

However unlike Cade’s attack in which she stood up and ran away after, Muur’s incapitated her to a point where she had to be put in a bacta tank for days to recover. So while both are superior to Talon, unfocused energies diverting off a blast from Muur did far more damage to Talon than a direct force push by Cade. 

So we have: 


Essence Muur’s focused attack >>> unfocused energies >>>> the small part that would actually hit Talon > Cade’s focused attacks
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
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SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Empty 2/3

January 8th 2021, 11:14 am
Message reputation : 100% (4 votes)

III. Reborn Krayt vs Muur

Now admittedly, most of my arguments show Muur > vong krayt, not his superiority to prime Cade (except the Talon argument of course) or Reborn Krayt. So to fix that I’ll try to quantify Krayt’s growth. To do so I will use Wyyrlok.

Krayt is outright said to be superior to Wyyrlok. This would of course include Vector Krayt as well.

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Wyyrlo13


When Krayt returns Reborn, he duels Wyyrlok. Said duel lasted for multiple pages, in which they contested first through dueling, then the force, dueling, and then the force again.

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Krayt_37

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Memory10

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I definitely agree that Reborn Krayt is superior, after all even Vong Krayt is. However if Wyyrlok can give Reborn Krayt a lengthy fight, while still being inferior to vong Krayt, the gap between the two iterations of Krayt can’t be that big. Certainly not bigger than the gap between Pall and essence Muur. 

Then we have to remember that no matter how it's presented, fact of the matter is that Reborn Krayt is superior to prime Cade. So at best (for you/Cade) we’re looking at: 

Ajunta Pall > Living Muur >> Spirit Muur >> Essence Muur > Vong Krayt > Wyyrlok <  Vong Krayt < Reborn Krayt > Cade

None of this necessarily puts Reborn Krayt over essence Muur, not to mention living Muur or Pall. And Cade is inferior to that.



Strengthening the era

In this category I won’t write much nor will it be a direct chain putting Pall over prime Cade. The purpose of this category is to show that in every comparison between the Exiles and the Legacy era, the Exiles are presented as big powerhouses. This is to show that in addition to my previous arguments, there is no need for Muur to grow. I will begin with Krayt’s master herself: 


I. XoXaan

You touched upon this earlier, but I want to expand upon it.

“Hett apprenticed himself to XoXaan in order to get revenge on Palpatine and Vader, and gained ”a great deal of strength in the Force”, as a result - placing him far beyond his Jedi self. However, in spite of this, he was only ”pretending to be a Sith” and ”could still not see the power within the darkness”.”

First, as you said, XoXaan was capable of greatly increasing Krayt’s power. Then you said that Krayt again grew greatly from the Embrace of pain. Both is fair. However you skipped one step between that and him becoming Dark Lord of the sith. 

Despite Hett already being at a level above most of the steps on your massive scaling chain, and having grown significantly past that level, he again apprenticed himself to XoXaan. At this point he's already Darth Krayt.


SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Unknown

Why is this significant? Because sith only become the apprentice of superior sith lords. And note that this doesn’t suggest that anyone who uses a holocron has to be their inferior, you can study a holocron without its guardian being your superior. However it's the specific word “apprentice” which suggests that XoXaan was a true master, not just a source of information. 

Again this doesn’t make Pall > Cade. However this does make this chain: 

Pall > Living XoXaan > (potential) spirit XoXaan > holocron XoXaan > Post-Embrace of Pain Krayt

Now if we look at your chains (doesn’t mean I agree with them, just pointing out why they don’t function), we get for example: 

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote wrote:“A’Sharad Hett << Obi-Wan Kenobi => TCW Darth Maul >> TPM Maul > Exar Kun”

If we combine these chains we get:

Pall > Living XoXaan > (potential) spirit XoXaan > holocron XoXaan > Post-Embrace of Pain Krayt > Pre-DS apprentice Hett > Hett << Obi-Wan Kenobi => TCW Darth Maul >> TPM Maul > Exar Kun

Following this chain, it's impossible for Pall to be at the bottom of it. And note that this is one of your shortest chains. The longer they are, the more impossible it gets. 


Last edited by Nute_Chethray on January 8th 2021, 11:19 am; edited 3 times in total
VictreebelVictr
VictreebelVictr

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3)

January 8th 2021, 11:15 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 1289255181
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
Moderator
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SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Empty 3/3

January 8th 2021, 11:22 am
Message reputation : 100% (6 votes)
Concession 
On Discord my opponent accepted Pall > Cade
SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Unknown
SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Unknown
GG SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 3344068304


Conclusion
The Exiles in general are powerhouses in the Legacy era, even a small part of Muur’s full power beating Vong Krayt. The chains presented by my opponent are all contradicted by direct comparisons. And absolutely nothing indicates, necessitates or explains growth by Muur or XoXaan, both of which are bellow dark lord of the sith... 


Ajunta Pall

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 98c9dc9c7b1758eb9002c517d809a948--jedi-sith-sith-lord


“Ajunta gets fucking treedolled.”

Treedolled, don’t make me laugh SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 1076326320

Cade gets freaking CHETHDOLLED

“Pall pointed a finger at Cade, and before Cade even recognized his evil intent, a ripple of Force slammed into him. White lights exploded behind his eyes, and the right side of his face felt as if it had been smashed by a hammer. His left arm and right leg crumpled under their unbearable weight, and he dropped to the ground on one knee, stunned. All the noise and blaster fire and screams of pain died away, became a distant roaring. Pall pointed at him again, twitched his finger, and Cade’s eyes lost focus. He felt the hammer blow to his left temple, dropped to his sides and rolled over to his back, grasping. Cade stared up at the sky, watching streams of rocks hurtling above him—some propelled by the Force, others hurled by rancors. Time seemed to slow. His head throbbed, pounding to the same rhythm as the beating of his heart. His face had gone cold, numb, and Cade realized distantly that Pall’s spell had ripped open blood vessels in his brain, and he was about to die, one among hundreds of fatalities on this battlefield.”
HellfireUnit
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Level Six
Level Six

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3)

January 8th 2021, 11:57 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Cheth ragdolling
RedGuard1an
RedGuard1an

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3)

January 8th 2021, 12:14 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Good post Cheth SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 1289255181
Palpatine Palpatine
Palpatine Palpatine

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January 8th 2021, 12:22 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Cheth obliterating.
Tybalt
Tybalt

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3)

January 8th 2021, 12:26 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
I disagree with some points but great post. SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 1289255181
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
Moderator
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January 8th 2021, 1:57 pm
Thanks everyone!
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3)

January 8th 2021, 8:26 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Nice Nice. I do have to appreciate HP using Cade. Reborn Krayt isn't looking to good from Ceth's post.
Meatpants
Meatpants
Moderator | Champion of Darkness
Moderator | Champion of Darkness

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3)

January 8th 2021, 9:23 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Interesting
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level Two
Level Two

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3)

January 9th 2021, 12:31 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
POWER
VictreebelVictr
VictreebelVictr

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January 9th 2021, 12:34 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Sorta sounds like Exar Kun>Prime Krayt now.
NevesYtneves
NevesYtneves
Level Seven
Level Seven

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3)

January 9th 2021, 10:50 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
The "Cheth ragdolling" comments, accurate or not, and joking or not, are the height of cringe.

OT-Good post Cheth.
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

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January 9th 2021, 1:37 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Really good post @Nute_Chethray
The Adventurous Jedi
The Adventurous Jedi
Level Seven
Level Seven

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3)

April 8th 2021, 6:08 pm
Message reputation : 100% (4 votes)
REBUTTAL

"HP = Dooku. No idea why you all think the aura of control Dooku has is what defines him. To me, Dooku represents someone with a silver spoon so far shoved up their ass that they no longer even think its there. HP is the definition of this, pretentious, elitist, and having an ego far exceeding his actual worth."

@Nute_Chethray A parting gift to you, before I vanish until the summer.

I. Karness Muur vs Ajunta Pall


A) Growth


To kick off this section of my post, I want to quote what I said last post and clarify my argument, because it seems like you genuinely don’t understand what I was saying. This is what I said (relevant parts highlighted and underlined):

I wrote:A potential point of contention with the above is that Karness Muur is below Ajunta Pall - as evidenced by Pall being the Dark Lord of the Sith when The Exiles fled to Korriban, and not Muur. However, that was thousands of years before Dark Times, and thus there’s no reason to use it to bind Muur below Pall as of this specific time period, due to the potential for Muurian mega growth in the interim. After all, the available evidence suggests Muur would absolutely crush Pall, and I see no reason to doubt it or the possibility that Muur grew. Furthermore, it’s stated that Muur ”grows more dangerous as the centuries pass”, potentially alluding to power growth on his part, though, admittedly the word ”dangerous” could refer to Muur’s increasing activity. Nevertheless, the plausible explanation remains, and, if you wish to dispute the idea that Muur grew in power, you must explain why, as the evidence favours my case.

And this is what you think I said:

Saying evidence favours your case is doubtful when the only thing you’re basing it on is claiming that “dangerous” refers to Muur’s personal power.

Cheth, when I say ”the available evidence suggests Muur would absolutely crush Pall” (red) what do you think I’m referring to? A vague ”dangerous” quote, which I haven’t even mentioned yet (it’s literally first brought up in the subsequent sentence), admit in that same paragraph isn’t concrete (blue), and doesn’t necessitate that Muur would ”crush Pall” even with the most generous interpretation that it’s talking about power. And when I continually refer to ”possibility” // “plausible explanation” // ”potential” (underlined) of growth, do you think I’m acting like I have some iron clad quote substantiating that Muur grew a shit ton?

I obviously don’t think Muur’s growth is substantiated in the lore, nor do I think that the ”dangerous” quote is an automatic GG - it’s supplementary evidence, so your quibbling over it is pointless. The actual ”evidence” I was referring to was the comparison to Sidious shown in the prior section of my post. Given the ideas that Muur is Sidious tier and Muur is Pall tier are mutually exclusive, we’re forced to rationalise them somehow, and I posited growth as a possible explanation, as there’s nothing rejecting the idea that Muur grew. Or, to summarise this whole paragraph: the proof that Muur grew is the contrast in his powers during the Dark Times, and his powers during The Old Republic. Making you constantly asking for proof as your ”rebuttal”:

You have to prove such growth.

[...]

Pall has confirmed superiority and unproven growth, so on the contrary.

[...]

I have to explain why there’s no cause for growth, you have to explain why there is, that's just how debates work. Saying evidence favours your case is doubtful when the only thing you’re basing it on is claiming that “dangerous” refers to Muur’s personal power.

...a big #coolstorybro. What you actually need to do to reject my case is prove that the probability Vader is wrong in his assessment of Sidious and Muur’s relative powers is greater than the probability that Muur grew. You didn’t even touch on the former topic, but, in fairness, I didn’t really provide any reasons why it is likely Vader is right last post, and will do so here. In order for Vader to be wrong, he’d have to have:

(1) ...underestimated Sidious’s power, OR
(2) ...overestimated Muur’s power.

In the case of (1), Vader has experienced Sidious fighting Mace Windu first hand, and knows he defeated Yoda - who’s power level Vader is aware of. It doesn’t seem likely he’d have an inaccurate reading, and it’s not as if his perception is being skewed by bias due to him living in some fantasy land: he rejects the idea of using Muur's power to take down Sidious in the end.

In the case of (2), it isn’t difficult to sense the talisman’s energies as it’s an inanimate object, and Vader literally notes he can feel the power radiating from it - basing his conclusion that he can defeat Sidious off of that.

Overall, it’s extremely unlikely Vader is wrong.

However, while you didn’t address Vader’s perception of Muur and Sidious’s power, you did try and prove it’s implausible Muur grew:

But you also have to prove when Muur had opportunity to grow. Throughout Vector he spent most of the time in stasis or in completely desolated locations. Morne also was for the most part in control of her body, so he couldn’t have conducted alchemy or gained new knowledge

Further you have to show how he could have grown. Usually in Star Wars power is gained through experiences (for example clone wars for PT jedi), or increased knowledge (Dark Holocron for Exar Kun), through experiments (cybernetical/alchemical enhancement), amulets,  or through things such as life drain. Muur had none of these, nor any other way to grow. He doesn’t even have a body with midichlorians with potential he can expand upon.

But the issue with your argument here is your concession that the means you provide for growth are only the ”usual” way in which a character’s powers increase - leaving the door open to other methods. Natural growth not resulting from any new experience, knowledge, etc, can occur, and while it’s not significant in the course of like a year, Muur spent 1000 thousand years stewing in a talisman. Even a miniscule increase in a year could result in a massive boon overall.

When told how long they were trapped, Muur even noted that the time was “wasted”, not something he’d say if he experienced significant power growth in the meantime.

Muur literally states why the time was ”wasted” in that very scan you posted: ”What use is it to live through millenia if one is trapped inside a box?” He was trapped for 1000 thousand years: unable to cause chaos, amass power over others, gain new knowledge, etc. I wouldn’t consider that a terribly productive time, even if he did increase in power, either. Context is key.

To summarise this section:

(1) The proof of Muur’s growth is not the ”dangerous” quote, but, rather, his comparability to Sidious.
(2) It’s unlikely Vader is wrong in his assessment of Sidious’s or the talisman's power.
(3) Muur growing massively more powerful is entirely possible, given that he had 1000 years to do so.

B) The Talisman


This part of your post concerning this iteration of Muur being vastly weaker than even his Spirit self is smaller, and not as important as the above, but I feel it’s relevant to cover anyway. To preface, the writers of Legacy hold Krayt with Sidious, yet your argument would have us believe a mere imprint of Muur’s power is being written as comparable to the most powerful Sith of all time.

Legacy Writers wrote:Imperial Knights. Yes, in the first two issues you see every one you encounter die. But look at who they are up against. The first four are up against Darth Krayt himself. We saw Palpatine take out four Jedi Masters; I submit it doesn't put the Imperial Knights in a bad light to suggest Krayt is in that class.

Do you see how utterly dishonest this claim is? Of course, this isn’t a direct rebuttal, but I think it’s well worth considering while I go through the following points:

Lastly, it's important to note that Muur’s power is not that of his spirit. It's the talisman. As shown by Morne being able to draw on the talisman’s power even when Muur is actively opposing her.

The talisman contains Muur’s spirit, as I’ll cover below.

It's not even Muur’s spirit in the typical sense, just his mind and essence.

...spirits are essence??? Why do you think the technique of a spirit travelling from one body to another is called essence transfer? Literally look at the way sourcebooks describe the process: “If you transfer your essence to another body...” (Source: The Dark Side Sourcebook) Sounds very similar to what’s happening with Muur, only with the spirit entering a host body rather than being tied to an artifact.

This is outright compared to a holocron, the only difference being that he entered a talisman.

...the quote doesn’t say that? It’s not the fact that it’s a talisman that’s the difference, it’s that it’s the talisman - the one which contains his ”very mind and will” (i.e. it’s different because it’s a special talisman which houses his spirit).

Essences in holocrons are far weaker than regular spirits, more an imprint than their actual being, usually unable to affect the living world at all.

So, when the scans you posted say Muur’s talisman holds his ”essence” and ”very mind and will” they really mean it just has an ”echo” // ”imprint” of his spirit? Those don’t sound like the same thing to me.

II. Karness Muur vs Cade Skywalker


A) Karness Muur vs Darth Krayt


Explain this sentence. Specifically the “very least” part. Which part of the fight shows Krayt’s superiority to Muur?

I didn’t claim Krayt has superiority, nor do I want to get into a discussion about that, because we would be quibbling over small differences. My argument dealt with the lower limits (i.e. "at least") precisely due to such - I only want to illustrate that Krayt has comparability, but I'm not ruling out the possibility of him being better. As for my proof, I substantiated it last post: Krayt mitigating Muur’s big Lightning Blast, despite the circumstances against him, shows his closeness.

If your argument is that Legacy characters are unable to prevent force drain, its not in your favour.

That is not my argument: it was never stated nor implied anywhere within my post.

At most you mentioned two circumstances, one of which is an ability Pall has access to and isn’t circumstantial, the other is fair (being stabbed). So to correct that sentence: “despite being stabbed/despite this circumstance”.

My point isn’t that some of these circumstances aren’t things that apply in neutral conditions: it’s that they amp Muur’s Lightning and hinder Krayt, making Krayt’s feat of mitigating the Lightning more indicative of comparability. My arguments weren’t an attempted justification for the feat - they were meant to show Krayt’s closeness to Muur.

First (and most importantly), Muur’s host actively tried to resist and block him out. Said host (Morne) was noted to be capable of holding off Krayt single handedly for a time. She even manages to hold off the combined lightning of Krayt and Maladi before using the talisman to help her. Morne is specifically inferior to the talisman.

What’s your proof she’s inferior to the talisman?

There is nothing indicating Muur was charging up an attack. He fired lightning the moment Azlyn stabbed Krayt, and just kept on firing.

He was charging up an attack before the stab. What do you think was happening to the energy he was draining from Krayt, and why did he not instantly subdue everyone like he supposedly could as soon as he combined his power with Morne’s but wait several moments instead? Or do you seriously think that the massive Lightning storm which incapacitated around half a dozen combatants was generated in a second?

We also do not see Krayt blocking Muur’s lightning beforehand, it goes right from Krayt firing lightning and Muur absorbing it to Muur firing as Azlyn stabbed him. It was the first offensive attack by Muur.

I didn’t claim otherwise.

It should also be noted that Muur’s attack didn’t just hit Krayt. The main focus of it was on him, but it was also a huge area of effect blast, which knocked over every sith, jedi and imperial knight in the area, The sith being so injured they had to be put into bacta tanks.

The only people we see hit by the blast are Maladi, Alzyn, Shado and an Imperial Knight (I forget the Knight’s name) - there’s no reason to assume it knocked over everyone. Stryfe is probably in a bacta tank because of the explosion he was hit by, and Talon because of her fight with Cade.

Positioning in the comic also shows another fact; Maladi was still next to Krayt, which means she was still helping in the 2v1. Which makes sense since we saw her nowhere after joining him. So even at the final stages Muur still was at a disadvantage.

Maladi is fodder to either, so this doesn’t affect the feat much.

What makes this even more clearly in Muur’s favour is the fact that he has OOU sources supporting his superiority to Krayt.

Since when does ”outshone” mean ”superior to”? Muur would obviously shine most brightly out of the 3 given that he won, but this doesn’t tell us anything about his relationship to Cade and Krayt, given the context behind said victory.

I also want to bring out one final point for Muur’s superiority, one which is overlooked. Muur outright states that he has killed more powerful sith than Krayt before.

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 39523600

...but I thought Muur was vastly weaker here than he was while living? Why is he rambling about feats he doesn’t scale to?

This is usually looked at as exaggeration, but there is no cause to. Muur has on multiple occasions been able to gauge people’s power (even potential power) with accuracy, even ones in which few others do (for example, Vader never sensed that Leia was a force sensitive despite meeting her repeatedly).

The fact that Muur has been accurate in the past doesn’t necessarily mean he is here. He has no way to concretely know Krayt’s power given that he’s never experienced its full potency - they’d only clashed blades once by the time Muur made this statement. Moreover, his arrogance may cause him to exaggerate his past feats: we have no concrete way of knowing how impressive this Sith truly is, whether Muur’s victory was even legitimate, etc.

The actual fight between the two tells us what Muur’s power level relative to Krayt really is - as I explained last post - and he’s certainly not vastly beyond him.

B) Darth Wyyrlok vs Darth Krayt


When Krayt returns Reborn, he duels Wyyrlok. Said duel lasted for multiple pages, in which they contested first through dueling, then the force, dueling, and then the force again.

Your order is wrong. They start off fighting with the Force, then they duel, and then they go back to using the Force (or, rather, Wyyrlok attempts to telepathically subdue Krayt). There aren’t multiple duelling segments.

I definitely agree that Reborn Krayt is superior, after all even Vong Krayt is. However if Wyyrlok can give Reborn Krayt a lengthy fight, while still being inferior to vong Krayt, the gap between the two iterations of Krayt can’t be that big.

We clearly have different definitions of lengthy. The fight, prior to Wyyrlok’s usage of telepathy, can be summarised as follows:

-Wyyrlok throws Lightning at Krayt
-Krayt blocks it and pushes it onto the pillars which break
-Wyyrlok throws the debris of the broken pillar at Krayt
-Krayt catches the debris and throws it back at Wyyrlok
-Wyyrlok deflects the debris with a Force Barrier
-Krayt jumps into CQC
-Wyyrlok blocks two swings from Krayt and dodges a third

...that all could have happened in less than 15 seconds. The most you can gather is that Wyyrlok can’t be blitzed or ragdolled, but nothing necessitates any kind of closeness, and the writers for Legacy reject such a notion given that they stated Krayt won ”easily”:

Legacy Writers wrote:I've hear some readers comment that they thought Wyyrlok fell too easily to Krayt, but, seriously, would the outcome ever be in doubt? Especially with Krayt all new and invigorated after his "rebirth"?

The only part of the struggle that’s extensive is after Wyyrlok telepathically attacks Krayt, but they weren’t even really fighting then: Krayt was feigning weakness and Wyyrlok was monologuing.

Nothing here caps Krayt’s growth.

C) Cade Skywalker and Karness Muur vs Darth Talon


While the dialogue is shorter and the fight possibly as well, they were not bladelocked, since in between the panels they went from facing each other to Cade being behind her, indicating they at least dueled for a short amount of time.

They were bladelocked initially, as you can see in the scan I provided last post. The fact that Talon disengaged from the lock and shifted her position afterwards doesn’t contradict this, and given that said shift could have happened in the span of a second, there’s no proof that they duelled for any significant length of time.

Also, what do you mean the fight is only ”possibly” shorter? It’s way less pages, there’s way less dialogue, etc, and Talon takes the performance as proof of Cade’s growth.

This is not really accurate. She fired a tk blast at the floor and he just avoided it. She didn’t attempt to directly hit him.

I’m not sure why you’re quibbling over a small detail which does nothing to back up your argument. Regardless, ”resists” - which is the wording I assume you’re contesting - just means that Cade prevented himself from being affected by the TK, and that is true under what you just described: he was unaffected due to his dodge.

And even after being hit by said attack, she still manages to run away and warn Krayt.

...she was initially knocked out by the attack. She only manages to run away when Wolf Sazen dies, and Cade’s attention is on him rather than her.

To compare, we’ll go back to Vector. Muur fires a lightning blast directly at Krayt. However a smaller part of it spreads out and hits everyone in the area. One of said people was Talon, and she, like everyone else, was one-shotted.

Refer to my earlier rebuttal where I discussed the Vector fight. The scan never depicts Talon being hit by the blast, and she was already subdued earlier by Cade - which is the more likely reason she was in a bacta tank.

However unlike Cade’s attack in which she stood up and ran away after, Muur’s incapitated her to a point where she had to be put in a bacta tank for days to recover. So while both are superior to Talon, unfocused energies diverting off a blast from Muur did far more damage to Talon than a direct force push by Cade.

Even if we’re generous and accept your premise that it was Muur who one-shotted Talon, despite her already being knocked out earlier by Cade, there are a few issues with this comparison:

(1) There’s no basis for her being in a bacta tank for ”days” - I don’t recall anything of that nature being implied, anyway - she could have only been in one for an hour, for all we know.

(2) There’s no reason to presume this means Muur is more powerful given that Lightning is inherently more damaging than telekinesis.

III. XoXaan vs Darth Krayt


First, as you said, XoXaan was capable of greatly increasing Krayt’s power. Then you said that Krayt again grew greatly from the Embrace of pain. Both is fair. However you skipped one step between that and him becoming Dark Lord of the sith.

Despite Hett already being at a level above most of the steps on your massive scaling chain, and having grown significantly past that level, he again apprenticed himself to XoXaan. At this point he's already Darth Krayt.

...what? Read the quote you’re posting:

Legacy: Claws of the Dragon wrote:Darth Krayt was born and returned to Korriban -- first as an apprentice to XoXaan, ready to embrace the way of the Sith -- then as a master prepared to create a new Sith Order.

The segment which says he was an apprentice to XoXaan is separated from the rest of the text/Krayt’s return to Korriban by parenthesis, so it has nothing to do with that - it’s referencing his initial tutelage under her before he was captured by the Vong, to show how far he’s come. Or, do you think Krayt, despite being labelled a Darth in that very same scan, hasn’t yet ”embraced the way of the Sith”?

Why is this significant? Because sith only become the apprentice of superior sith lords. And note that this doesn’t suggest that anyone who uses a holocron has to be their inferior, you can study a holocron without its guardian being your superior. However it's the specific word “apprentice” which suggests that XoXaan was a true master, not just a source of information.

XoXaan was only Hett’s master because he lacked knowledge of the Dark Side - he was only a Jedi when he apprenticed himself to her, as clarified above - and needed someone to teach him, not due to lacking power on his part.

Following this chain, it's impossible for Pall to be at the bottom of it. And note that this is one of your shortest chains. The longer they are, the more impossible it gets.

Addressed above; Krayt is not below XoXaan. But, as a second rebuttal, you really should have looked at the chain you're contesting in greater detail - specifically, you should have analysed the proof provided for each link - before making this argument:

I wrote:A’Sharad Hett << Obi-Wan Kenobi => TCW Darth Maul >> TPM Maul > Exar Kun.

Where do you suppose the flaw is here? Some of my scaling chains are based on character opinions, but this is all based on direct statements of superiority and combat feats. Look at the basis for every link in that chain, and you’ll see a character opinion - Krayt supposedly viewing Xoxxan as stronger than him - will collapse before all of them.

IV. Conclusion


You did nothing to contest most of my scaling, and grossly misinterpreted my argument for Muur’s growth. Moreover, you continually failed to provide any link between Muur and Prime Cade, and your use of XoXaan scaling was half-hearted at best.

Cade slaughters.


Last edited by AA3 on April 13th 2021, 6:02 am; edited 18 times in total (Reason for editing : Fixing formatting errors and typos; none of the actual content was changed.)
lorenzo.r.2nd
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April 8th 2021, 6:15 pm
did u tag me by any chance? it tells me that u did, but I dont see it...
The Adventurous Jedi
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April 8th 2021, 6:23 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:did u tag me by any chance? it tells me that u did, but I dont see it...

No, I didn't.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
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April 8th 2021, 6:26 pm
AA3 wrote:
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:did u tag me by any chance? it tells me that u did, but I dont see it...

No, I didn't.
k
this human be a young justice fan. i watched the fuck outta that
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April 10th 2021, 8:12 am
Good post, shorter than expected which is refreshing SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 1289255181
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