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The Found
The Found

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3)

December 30th 2020, 4:54 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Peak Cade ~ Reborn Krayt

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 A22
Nute_Chethray
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SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3)

December 30th 2020, 3:03 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
While I appreciate the enthusiaism, please try to avoid bringing down other users and going off-topic
lorenzo.r.2nd
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SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3)

December 30th 2020, 3:22 pm
@The Found wrote:
Peak Cade ~ Reborn Krayt

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 A22
funny part is that nobody knows if u agree or disagree with it
Nute_Chethray
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SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Empty 1/3

January 8th 2021, 11:14 am
Message reputation : 100% (7 votes)
Counters
I/LXIX. Kun


So this scan says that Exar Kun was once the most powerful and dangerous sith lord in history, which is interpreted as him being more powerful than all sith lords preceding him. However “most powerful” could refer to a number of things. 


This is a joke since I’m not going to go through every single point nor do I have that many counters. I do have a number of disagreements with the chains, however debating these are a waste of time and generally irrelevant to my real arguments. Since these will show why Pall is superior to Cade per direct comparison, therefore contradicting and disproving the indirect comparisons made by the chain. 
Karness Muur


This is probably the most direct comparison we have between Cade and Pall, so this will be my main focus. 


I. Counters


Like my opponent stated, Pall is > Muur. I’m glad we won’t have to debate that. However I will have to disagree on what's stated afterwards. 

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote wrote:“there’s no reason to use it to bind Muur below Pall as of this specific time period, due to the potential for Muurian mega growth in the interim.”

You have to prove such growth. 

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote wrote: the available evidence suggests Muur would absolutely crush Pall” 

Pall has confirmed superiority and unproven growth, so on the contrary.

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote wrote:“I see no reason to doubt it or the possibility that Muur grew.”

Doubt what? 

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote wrote:“admittedly the word ”dangerous” could refer to Muur’s increasing activity.”

And is there any cause to disagree with this interpretation? 

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote wrote:“the plausible explanation remains”

What makes Muur growing while trapped in stasis in a host that resists him plausible? 

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote wrote:“if you wish to dispute the idea that Muur grew in power, you must explain why, as the evidence favours my case.”

I have to explain why there’s no cause for growth, you have to explain why there is, that's just how debates work. Saying evidence favours your case is doubtful when the only thing you’re basing it on is claiming that “dangerous” refers to Muur’s personal power. 

But you also have to prove when Muur had opportunity to grow. Throughout Vector he spent most of the time in stasis or in completely desolated locations. Morne also was for the most part in control of her body, so he couldn’t have conducted alchemy or gained new knowledge

Further you have to show how he could have grown. Usually in Star Wars power is gained through experiences (for example clone wars for PT jedi), or increased knowledge (Dark Holocron for Exar Kun), through experiments (cybernetical/alchemical enhancement), amulets,  or through things such as life drain. Muur had none of these, nor any other way to grow. He doesn’t even have a body with midichlorians with potential he can expand upon. 


II. Dangerous


To support the notion of “grows more dangerous” referring not to power, I will show to both reasons why he’s more dangerous within the story: 

First off, its activity (as mentioned before). By the start of Vector, Zayne puts Morne and Muur in stasis, and then the oubliette ends up under water, so at the time there was no threat from him, then freezing over and being unable to be opened by non-forceusers. 
SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 XbivH3IOBkgP8LPUEdm-9rvquoeZ-3et0VcGdIvXnx-uVlTFHpKSrZJQidJ11G9WanSgPD-7dPYThK3a3plaobrD0fUOo2yh5imh

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Unknown


When told how long they were trapped, Muur even noted that the time was “wasted”, not something he’d say if he experienced significant power growth in the meantime. 
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Then they end up trapped on a moon for decades, again with Morne in control so no opportunity for growth. 


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Then she gets a ship, but spends all the time travelling empty space. 

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Roughly a century later, she takes control of an entire star destroyer

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 6ikCuNipZ8n-RGdRBa3zzUSY2QpdliYSwU_WDGz6iV7s2zfrtLhHusZC0XHiGkXKezm_3ESP3pk8OWowoU6VJe2kJQMGmBSUPAz8

And of course after this Muur outright fights the sith order, and nearly takes both Krayt and Cade as hosts. 

This is already more than enough to show why he’s growing more dangerous, but there actually is another point for Muur, that being that Muur is slowly taking full control of Morne. 


III. Power of the Talisman


Lastly, it's important to note that Muur’s power is not that of his spirit. It's the talisman. As shown by Morne being able to draw on the talisman’s power even when Muur is actively opposing her. 
SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 DtXxmhcQcxp_C56AC1th86gB1-lv-BdUW1App8jPGmmwpvEtZFYoEaXoB_egzLTijFAVxeK9ROUkEkAzDsjFd7q8QGhQRRsk6zki


It's not even Muur’s spirit in the typical sense, just his mind and essence. 


SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Unknown


This is outright compared to a holocron, the only difference being that he entered a talisman.

Essences in holocrons are far weaker than regular spirits, more an imprint than their actual being, usually unable to affect the living world at all. 

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Unknown

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Unknown


So we have: 

Living Muur >> (Potential) Spirit Muur >> Talisman Muur


Krayt vs Muur vs Cade
I. Muur vs Krayt

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote wrote:“During Legacy: Vector, Darth Krayt demonstrates he is - at the very least - comparable to Karness Muur in power“

Explain this sentence. Specifically the “very least” part. Which part of the fight shows Krayt’s superiority to Muur? 

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote wrote:“powered by Krayt’s own energies from Force Draining him” 
If your argument is that Legacy characters are unable to prevent force drain, its not in your favour. 

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote wrote:“despite all of the circumstances against him”

At most you mentioned two circumstances, one of which is an ability Pall has access to and isn’t circumstantial, the other is fair (being stabbed). So to correct that sentence: “despite being stabbed/despite this circumstance”.

Now let's look at the fight again: 

First (and most importantly), Muur’s host actively tried to resist and block him out. Said host (Morne) was noted to be capable of holding off Krayt single handedly for a time. She even manages to hold off the combined lightning of Krayt and Maladi before using the talisman to help her. Morne is specifically inferior to the talisman.
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Krayt then says he feels Morne starting to use the talisman, but that she still resists the dark side. 

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 NH_PiKxy4EFo-BOJ17yS6ygbRMNrOAKzldvapnqJmXiaj9gzYXEE2MNiVWJ1za6_QON1T4dGkAAs1600


Muur takes over, but Morne still would be actively resisting him. 

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote wrote:“yet only breaches Krayt’s defences with a charged blast”

There is nothing indicating Muur was charging up an attack. He fired lightning the moment Azlyn stabbed Krayt, and just kept on firing. We also do not see Krayt blocking Muur’s lightning beforehand, it goes right from Krayt firing lightning and Muur absorbing it to Muur firing as Azlyn stabbed him. It was the first offensive attack by Muur. 

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 TOU0Xu61IR_S5TtdV3mqPKOdagpLBM4iUH3-JbWO1NbnXZkQNV93QtzoHc8DyPbkT2JQrCpSmjgs1600


 It should also be noted that Muur’s attack didn’t just hit Krayt. The main focus of it was on him, but it was also a huge area of effect blast, which knocked over every sith, jedi and imperial knight in the area, The sith being so injured they had to be put into bacta tanks. 

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Positioning in the comic also shows another fact; Maladi was still next to Krayt, which means she was still helping in the 2v1. Which makes sense since we saw her nowhere after joining him. So even at the final stages Muur still was at a disadvantage. 
SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 E4VxVEYQI34-5C54tD_tOs_V41UfPQ1Ip9g9BF-_rFbBDm_8K38kea-liT9UzG6F4s9GHQ17H7ws1600

What makes this even more clearly in Muur’s favour is the fact that he has OOU sources supporting his superiority to Krayt.

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Unknown


I also want to bring out one final point for Muur’s superiority, one which is overlooked. Muur outright states that he has killed more powerful sith than Krayt before. This is usually looked at as exaggeration, but there is no cause to. Muur has on multiple occasions been able to gauge people’s power (even potential power) with accuracy, even ones in which few others do (for example, Vader never sensed that Leia was a force sensitive despite meeting her repeatedly). 

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 ATyn_plEZEZGVZTPC9lcam25fa61xH4Z1Lq0wVak2CNJinexjCaXq_0nSzu5gDTI0cV8Mfw_3iQs1600

So we have 

Living Muur >> (Potential) Spirit Muur >> Talisman Muur >> Morne < Vong Krayt + Maladi. 

And

Living Muur >>> unidentified sith > Vong Krayt


II. Talon 

This is a short point, but one I felt like pointing out due to the weight you put on it. You used Cade’s fights with Talon to indicate his growth, and I want to show how that works in Muur’s favour. First however I want to disagree with your assessment of their final fight: 

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote wrote:“here they exchange one piece of dialogue while bladelocked”

While the dialogue is shorter and the fight possibly as well, they were not bladelocked, since in between the panels they went from facing each other to Cade being behind her, indicating they at least dueled for a short amount of time. 

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote wrote:“Cade resists her TK”

This is not really accurate. She fired a tk blast at the floor and he just avoided it. She didn’t attempt to directly hit him. And even after being hit by said attack, she still manages to run away and warn Krayt. 

To compare, we’ll go back to Vector. Muur fires a lightning blast directly at Krayt. However a smaller part of it spreads out and hits everyone in the area. One of said people was Talon, and she, like everyone else, was one-shotted. 

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 E4VxVEYQI34-5C54tD_tOs_V41UfPQ1Ip9g9BF-_rFbBDm_8K38kea-liT9UzG6F4s9GHQ17H7ws1600

However unlike Cade’s attack in which she stood up and ran away after, Muur’s incapitated her to a point where she had to be put in a bacta tank for days to recover. So while both are superior to Talon, unfocused energies diverting off a blast from Muur did far more damage to Talon than a direct force push by Cade. 

So we have: 


Essence Muur’s focused attack >>> unfocused energies >>>> the small part that would actually hit Talon > Cade’s focused attacks
Nute_Chethray
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January 8th 2021, 11:14 am
Message reputation : 100% (4 votes)

III. Reborn Krayt vs Muur

Now admittedly, most of my arguments show Muur > vong krayt, not his superiority to prime Cade (except the Talon argument of course) or Reborn Krayt. So to fix that I’ll try to quantify Krayt’s growth. To do so I will use Wyyrlok.

Krayt is outright said to be superior to Wyyrlok. This would of course include Vector Krayt as well.

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Wyyrlo13


When Krayt returns Reborn, he duels Wyyrlok. Said duel lasted for multiple pages, in which they contested first through dueling, then the force, dueling, and then the force again.

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Krayt_37

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Memory10

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I definitely agree that Reborn Krayt is superior, after all even Vong Krayt is. However if Wyyrlok can give Reborn Krayt a lengthy fight, while still being inferior to vong Krayt, the gap between the two iterations of Krayt can’t be that big. Certainly not bigger than the gap between Pall and essence Muur. 

Then we have to remember that no matter how it's presented, fact of the matter is that Reborn Krayt is superior to prime Cade. So at best (for you/Cade) we’re looking at: 

Ajunta Pall > Living Muur >> Spirit Muur >> Essence Muur > Vong Krayt > Wyyrlok <  Vong Krayt < Reborn Krayt > Cade

None of this necessarily puts Reborn Krayt over essence Muur, not to mention living Muur or Pall. And Cade is inferior to that.



Strengthening the era

In this category I won’t write much nor will it be a direct chain putting Pall over prime Cade. The purpose of this category is to show that in every comparison between the Exiles and the Legacy era, the Exiles are presented as big powerhouses. This is to show that in addition to my previous arguments, there is no need for Muur to grow. I will begin with Krayt’s master herself: 


I. XoXaan

You touched upon this earlier, but I want to expand upon it.

“Hett apprenticed himself to XoXaan in order to get revenge on Palpatine and Vader, and gained ”a great deal of strength in the Force”, as a result - placing him far beyond his Jedi self. However, in spite of this, he was only ”pretending to be a Sith” and ”could still not see the power within the darkness”.”

First, as you said, XoXaan was capable of greatly increasing Krayt’s power. Then you said that Krayt again grew greatly from the Embrace of pain. Both is fair. However you skipped one step between that and him becoming Dark Lord of the sith. 

Despite Hett already being at a level above most of the steps on your massive scaling chain, and having grown significantly past that level, he again apprenticed himself to XoXaan. At this point he's already Darth Krayt.


SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Unknown

Why is this significant? Because sith only become the apprentice of superior sith lords. And note that this doesn’t suggest that anyone who uses a holocron has to be their inferior, you can study a holocron without its guardian being your superior. However it's the specific word “apprentice” which suggests that XoXaan was a true master, not just a source of information. 

Again this doesn’t make Pall > Cade. However this does make this chain: 

Pall > Living XoXaan > (potential) spirit XoXaan > holocron XoXaan > Post-Embrace of Pain Krayt

Now if we look at your chains (doesn’t mean I agree with them, just pointing out why they don’t function), we get for example: 

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote wrote:“A’Sharad Hett << Obi-Wan Kenobi => TCW Darth Maul >> TPM Maul > Exar Kun”

If we combine these chains we get:

Pall > Living XoXaan > (potential) spirit XoXaan > holocron XoXaan > Post-Embrace of Pain Krayt > Pre-DS apprentice Hett > Hett << Obi-Wan Kenobi => TCW Darth Maul >> TPM Maul > Exar Kun

Following this chain, it's impossible for Pall to be at the bottom of it. And note that this is one of your shortest chains. The longer they are, the more impossible it gets. 


Last edited by Nute_Chethray on January 8th 2021, 11:19 am; edited 3 times in total
VictreebelVictr
VictreebelVictr

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3)

January 8th 2021, 11:15 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 1289255181
Nute_Chethray
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January 8th 2021, 11:22 am
Message reputation : 100% (6 votes)
Concession 
On Discord my opponent accepted Pall > Cade
SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Unknown
SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 Unknown
GG SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 3344068304


Conclusion
The Exiles in general are powerhouses in the Legacy era, even a small part of Muur’s full power beating Vong Krayt. The chains presented by my opponent are all contradicted by direct comparisons. And absolutely nothing indicates, necessitates or explains growth by Muur or XoXaan, both of which are bellow dark lord of the sith... 


Ajunta Pall

SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 98c9dc9c7b1758eb9002c517d809a948--jedi-sith-sith-lord


“Ajunta gets fucking treedolled.”

Treedolled, don’t make me laugh SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 1076326320

Cade gets freaking CHETHDOLLED

“Pall pointed a finger at Cade, and before Cade even recognized his evil intent, a ripple of Force slammed into him. White lights exploded behind his eyes, and the right side of his face felt as if it had been smashed by a hammer. His left arm and right leg crumpled under their unbearable weight, and he dropped to the ground on one knee, stunned. All the noise and blaster fire and screams of pain died away, became a distant roaring. Pall pointed at him again, twitched his finger, and Cade’s eyes lost focus. He felt the hammer blow to his left temple, dropped to his sides and rolled over to his back, grasping. Cade stared up at the sky, watching streams of rocks hurtling above him—some propelled by the Force, others hurled by rancors. Time seemed to slow. His head throbbed, pounding to the same rhythm as the beating of his heart. His face had gone cold, numb, and Cade realized distantly that Pall’s spell had ripped open blood vessels in his brain, and he was about to die, one among hundreds of fatalities on this battlefield.”
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January 8th 2021, 11:57 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Cheth ragdolling
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January 8th 2021, 12:14 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Good post Cheth SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 1289255181
Palpatine Palpatine
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January 8th 2021, 12:22 pm
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Cheth obliterating.
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January 8th 2021, 12:26 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
I disagree with some points but great post. SS - Ajunta Pall (Cheth) vs Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) - Page 2 1289255181
Nute_Chethray
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January 8th 2021, 1:57 pm
Thanks everyone!
SnowxElf
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January 8th 2021, 8:26 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Nice Nice. I do have to appreciate HP using Cade. Reborn Krayt isn't looking to good from Ceth's post.
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January 8th 2021, 9:23 pm
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Interesting
The lord of hunger
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January 9th 2021, 12:31 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
POWER
VictreebelVictr
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January 9th 2021, 12:34 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Sorta sounds like Exar Kun>Prime Krayt now.
Sjuttiosju
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January 9th 2021, 10:50 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
The "Cheth ragdolling" comments, accurate or not, and joking or not, are the height of cringe.

OT-Good post Cheth.
xolthol
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January 9th 2021, 1:37 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Really good post @Nute_Chethray
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