Re: Arcann vs Tulak Hord

November 27th 2020, 12:11 pm

KingofBlades wrote:Just a tip from one debater to another;if you see an argument propogated by LadyKulvax, it's generally a safe bet to conclude it's wrong

November 27th 2020, 3:19 pm

KingofBlades wrote:Just a tip from one debater to another;if you see an argument propogated by LadyKulvax, it's generally a safe bet to conclude it's wrong

I mean you can just disagree with someone without having to put them down like that and have that attitude... We all have different perspectives and you can just respectfully disagree and move on. Its literally just a fictional world for entertainment at the end of the day.

November 27th 2020, 3:33 pm

NotAA3 wrote:First, you link "Let it Go", and then you post this wall of shite. Is there any end to how cringepilled you can be?

Who is even talking to you? Go give your 3 year old emotional tantrums somewhere else kid.

November 27th 2020, 3:34 pm

@NotAA3 @KingofBlades: Please be respectful to members. Explain why you think the Malak quote still holds.

Spoiler:

On-topic, Arcann probably obliterates. I think that Kun's TCSWE supremacy quote should only bind him as-of Hord's known 2008 power-level (i.e. the idea he consumed thousands of Jedi souls wasn't in-play yet), but I'm going to need more details before that fact somehow puts him not only above Kun, but also above Malak, the Voice, the Hero of Tython, and then Arcann himself. The only specifics we have is that Kallig is still somehow remembered as comparably powerful to presumably near-peak Hord.

November 27th 2020, 3:43 pm

DarthAnt66 wrote:The only specifics we have is that Kallig is still somehow remembered as comparably powerful to presumably near-peak Hord.

Kallig may even be superior to Hord in fact.

Kallig! He was one of the most powerful Sith Lords of his time. Perhaps the most powerful. Oddly pro-alien. To think how the Empire might have been different if he had killed Tulak Hord and not the other way around.

- Talos Drellik , Star Wars: The Old Republic

November 27th 2020, 6:24 pm Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

KingofBlades wrote:Just a tip from one debater to another;if you see an argument propogated by LadyKulvax, it's generally a safe bet to conclude it's wrong

Reported. Maybe next time actually just debunk something I've said instead of trying to insult my character.

November 27th 2020, 8:03 pm

I wasn't aware that being bitchy was still cool on here. Interesting.

November 27th 2020, 9:32 pm

Rei wrote:

NotAA3 wrote:First, you link "Let it Go", and then you post this wall of shite. Is there any end to how cringepilled you can be?

Who is even talking to you? Go give your 3 year old emotional tantrums somewhere else kid.

You were, or did you not read your own post?

Are some people still desperately clinging to that outdated and removed Malak quote that has been contradicted on various more up to date sources?

[...]

But apparently none of that matters as long as Revan gets a nice scaling chain based on an outdated and removed quote that has been contradicted on various up to date sources and lacks any kind of feat to back it up let alone an argument.

>Haha, omg look at these biased Revan fanboys, the quote lacks any argument to back it up, and they're just ignoring all of these up to date sources that I totally didn't copy-paste from AP's Kun respect thread.

Give. Me. A. Fucking. Break.

Your post indirectly mocked anyone who buys into the quote as though we each haven't carefully considered our own opinions and seen these sources before. If you act condescending, you're going to get torn into in response - don't complain when it happens and act even more condescending (calling someone "kid" is the typical meme-worthy internet response). Now, for a full reply, which your bad attitude has caused me to give:

Freedon Nadd alone was considered to be “far worse” than Revan and Malak in Kotor 2 in which even the context later focuses on Nadd’s tomb being a source of dark side power and how its presence make it a dangerous place which aligns more to the implication of Freedon Nadd’s power than being “far worse” in something else.

There's a list of points here that should adequately cover this argument:

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t2955p125-top-fifteen-tournament-12-alliance-commander wrote:(1) Kreia agrees specifically with the last sentence, basically repeating the claim. She never agrees that they're far worse than Revan and Malak.

(2) How would the stories even convey he's more powerful than Revan and Malak? There's no in-universe way to know that, as you can't sense or fight both of them to compare since they lived in different centuries. Plus, Revan and Malak's best feats are personal. They don't have public displays of power like Nadd dominating Onderon.

(3) There's no way Kreia could even potentially confirm the claim, as she never interacts with Revan or Malak after the Mandalorian Wars.

(4) All Kreia does the entire game is fellate Revan. She says he's the personification of power and the heart of the Force, which Avellone clarifies to mean she thinks Revan is one of the most powerful Force users ever. And all Avellone--the writer of KOTOR 2--does promoting the game is fellate Revan. He says he's the Luke Skywalker of the era and could beat basically everyone and anyone. Meanwhile, Kreia walks into Nadd's tomb and notes how it seems she had previously underestimated Nadd's power, implying she didn't even think that highly of it when she agreed with the Mandalorian minutes before: "Freedon Nadd's power appears to be underestimated." Since you appealed to intent, I have a hard time believing Kreia or Avellone would randomly note, "Oh, yeah, but this Nadd guy who I don't even think that highly of is stronger than Power Incarnate." That seems like a big and narratively inconsistent claim. It's evident she's not agreeing with the Mandalorian about that.

(5) Rather than a Mandalorian mentioning he somehow heard Nadd had greater Force power than Revan or Malak, consider Nadd is infamous for his cruelty against Onderon, violently subjugating its population and trying to kill those who resisted. Though Malak laid waste to worlds, that doesn't preclude Nadd being "worse" than Malak. "Worse" isn't just defined by death count. Now that's something the stories could plausibly convey and a non-Force sensitive Mandalorian would highlight.

But even setting that aside, you are aware that an IU fallible character opinion (that didn't even make the final cut of the game) does not overrule an OOU objective/infallible quote? Is this a hard concept to understand? I certainly hope not, and I pray it sinks in, because this applies for the rest of your post, too - no number of character opinions can overrule an OOU quote.

You have Tulak Hord and ancient Sith being hyped up in Kotor 2 to the point that Kotor 1 and 2 users are deemed as children playing with toys compared to the lightsaber skill of the ancients. This was also confirmed by Avellone on its accuracy.

When does Kreia include KOTOR 1 in that quote??? The only people she's commenting on are herself and The Exile. Moreover, the quote is purely on technical skill, not Force Power - which is what the Malak quote is discussing. And, again, this is a character opinion vs OOU quote scenario, where the latter wins out.

The Emperor in the Old Republic, who is vastly superior to Vitiate who is vastly superior to Malak, deemed that the spirits of the Ancient Sith were a threat to his power let alone their physical incarnations. Yet if the physical incarnations of the ancient Sith were inferior to Malak then I really don’t see how even the spirits of the Ancients would possess any threat to someone like the Emperor who would have been astronomically ahead.

Since when does threat mean even remotely close to Vitiate in power? There are ways to be a threat besides being comparable in direct confrontations. And I'm not sure why one Ancient Sith (Kun) being inferior to Malak somehow precludes the Ancient Sith Spirits as a collective being comparable to Vitate anyway.

Oh, and in case you forgot: "This is a character opinion vs OOU quote scenario, where the latter wins out."

You then have ancient Sith being scaled above Darth Nihilus who is hyped up as having more power than anyone in the Kotor Era.

Remember Avellone's commentary on Revan being the GM Luke of his era when factoring in his intent. Arcann vs Tulak Hord - Page 2 4233314142

Now, again, where does that quote mention everyone in the KOTOR era? As far as I can tell, she only mentions the characters in KOTOR 2, she doesn't touch on Revan.

Oh, and in case you forgot: "This is a character opinion vs OOU quote scenario, where the latter wins out."

Nihilus who is considered to be one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history.

Wow, this is such a concrete link to Malak, I'm impressed.

Nihilus who has Telekinesis feats that the no-mouthed egghead Malak can only dream of replicating.

Why can Malak "only dream of replicating" them? As far as I'm aware, Malak doesn't have a Telekinesis ceiling, so, this draws no connection between the two, and I'm not convinced of the legitimacy of Nihilus's TK showings to begin with.

But apparently none of that matters as long as Revan gets a nice scaling chain based on an outdated and removed quote that has been contradicted on various up to date sources and lacks any kind of feat to back it up let alone an argument.

None of that matters, because while typing up this wall of shite you apparently missed two obvious details:

(1) That practically all of what you cited is from Kreia and Avellone: the two people who fellate Revan the most.

(2) Kreia is a fallible IU character, the Malak quote is an infallible OOU quote. Ergo, we favour the latter over the former, and even if I did concede that everything is contradictory, Malak would still be above Kun.

November 27th 2020, 11:06 pm

Kreia is a fallible IU character who is well-informed on what she claims and is stated outright by Chris Avellone to be accurate in her estimations.

The Freedon Nadd's tomb meme is meh, but it's like the last thing you'd need to make an argument that KotOR 2 outright contradicts the quote.

Appealling to Avellone stating Revan is the GM Luke of his era is kinda funny when Avellone in an online interview has stated outright that Nihilus vs Revan ends with Revan winning because he's far smarter, not because of some raw power advantage:

(5:39-6:20)

November 27th 2020, 11:14 pm

Malak quote aside, I think there's little evidence to consider the Ancient Sith to be significant superior to the SWTOR Dark Council.

November 28th 2020, 12:22 am

Given Tulak Hord potentially scales massively above Darth Nox, I'm not sure I can see how you'd come to that conclusion.

November 28th 2020, 5:27 am Message reputation : 100% (10 votes)

NotAA3 wrote:
You were, or did you not read your own post?

You mean when you are complaining and having an emotional breakdown because I posted a link that was not even remotely towards you and was specifically in a discussion that me and KoB were having? Or you mean when you are having an emotional breakdown because I said “some people” referencing to the two people who said that they use the Malak quote in this very thread and whom neither is you?

>Haha, omg look at these biased Revan fanboys, the quote lacks any argument to back it up, and they're just ignoring all of these up to date sources that I totally didn't copy-paste from AP's Kun respect thread.

Give. Me. A. Fucking. Break.

Your post indirectly mocked anyone who buys into the quote as though we each haven't carefully considered our own opinions and seen these sources before. If you act condescending, you're going to get torn into in response - don't complain when it happens and act even more condescending (calling someone "kid" is the typical meme-worthy internet response). Now, for a full reply, which your bad attitude has caused me to give:

And where exactly did I mock anyone who buys into the quote in my post? Because I said that some people are still clinging to, what I would consider, an outdated argument due to more up to date sources? Or because I said that some people could be biased towards Revan and it may not matter to them about more up to date sources? Please explain to me where do you see me mocking or insulting anyone directly or indirectly in my post when all I really said was that some people cling to an outdated source (From my point of view) and that some could be biased towards Revan (“none of that matters”) despite what I consider more up to date sources. And it is really hilarious how you are telling me that I am acting “even more condescending” because I called you a kid when you are the one who started with that garbage attitude and having emotional tantrums because I posted a link in a previous discussion (which wasn’t even about you) and stated my point of view on the Malak quote which you attributed to “indirectly mocking” anyone who buys the quote when in reality I was criticizing it as an outdated source that some may stick to and that more up to date sources are available. If you consider what I said as me indirectly mocking you, then that is your problem. And then you talk about me having the “bad attitude” despite your emotional tantrum?

Let me show you what a “bad attitude” really looks like considering your garbage behavior and reply to me.

Someone that attacks others because they criticize their post and directly calls them stupid/obtuse:

Someone that brings other members down:

More mocking of others and bringing them down:

Someone that personally insults others:

More garbage behavior and bringing others down:

Implies that some people on the forum are retarded:

More of bringing others down and bullying:

Doesn’t need explaining:

More garbage behavior and attacking others:

Mocks other people’s point of view despite whining about it in his “indirect mocking”:

More mocking:

And then gets banned for his disgusting behavior with others (also getting banned on other sites… the irony):

Are you really talking to me about “indirectly mocking” others and having a “bad attitude”?

they're just ignoring all of these up to date sources that I totally didn't copy-paste from AP's Kun respect thread.

Oh, really? Tell me exactly what I “copy-pasted” from AP’s Kun thread (not that sources are even owned by a thread anyways). If you are talking about the Tulak Hord fan question or the scan I posted then maybe you should get your facts straight before making your garbage accusations since I had these on the Hord thread before they existed on the Kun thread.

So how about you address your history of garbage attitude before talking to me about “mocking others” or my “bad attitude” and address the accusation you made against me and then maybe, just maybe, we could actually have a proper and civil discussion about the Malak quote without this non sense.

November 28th 2020, 5:47 am Message reputation : 100% (8 votes)

Rei ragdolling HP

November 28th 2020, 6:10 am

HellfireUnit wrote:Rei ragdolling HP

November 28th 2020, 6:31 am

November 28th 2020, 6:33 am

Hord loses to Bandon, good thread

November 28th 2020, 8:40 am

I must say, I'm very honoured that you took the time to go through my entire posting history - and yet only found a grand total of 4 instances of toxic behaviour from this year (some of which you've blatantly misinterpreted what I said or taken it out of context), with most being from last year - rather than you know... actually addressing the arguments I made.

So how about you address your history of garbage attitude before talking to me about “mocking others” or my “bad attitude” and address the accusation you made against me and then maybe, just maybe, we could actually have a proper and civil discussion about the Malak quote without this non sense.

You don't want me to address that history, nor do you want me to address the accusation made against you, nor do you want to conduct a civil dialogue. The former two allow you to maintain a position of moral grandstanding, so you'll throw out a snappy reply to whatever I say on the subject, and the final could have already happened if you'd simply replied to my actual post and insisted we dropped all hostilities rather than ignoring every point I made on the real discussion and wasting your time sifting through a posting history which was probably very tiresome to read. As such, I'm not going to waste my time continuing this petty side debate: my own misconduct does not justify yours, nor am I mad about you not handling yourself with proper conduct in of itself (I'm mad about you getting on your high horse when someone snapped back), so I'm not a hypocrite here for having my own issues with conduct.

Reply to my actual arguments if you wish, and we can continue without the flaming contest, otherwise, this'll probably be my last post in the thread.

November 28th 2020, 8:55 am

HellfireUnit wrote:Rei ragdolling HP

November 28th 2020, 11:10 am

November 28th 2020, 12:59 pm Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

HellfireUnit wrote:Rei ragdolling HP

November 28th 2020, 2:06 pm

The lord of hunger wrote:

KingofBlades wrote:Just a tip from one debater to another;if you see an argument propogated by LadyKulvax, it's generally a safe bet to conclude it's wrong

LadyKulvax is snide and now he's crying wolf, for this reason I have to proclaim my agreement.

November 28th 2020, 2:30 pm

HellfireUnit wrote:Rei ragdolling HP

He was amped by the Kulvax Nexus

November 28th 2020, 2:48 pm

HellfireUnit wrote:Rei ragdolling HP

November 28th 2020, 7:09 pm

Given Kun >>> Nadd >> Sadow > Nihilus > Malak is now canon given Avellone's confirmation of KotOR 2 statements. Arcann has no form of direct scaling, but he may win regardless just because Hord is so unknown.

November 28th 2020, 7:22 pm

LadyKulvax wrote:is now canon

Arcann vs Tulak Hord - Page 2 1668617588

given Avellone's

I believe you are well aware that's not how that works, lol.