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Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Arcann vs Tulak Hord Empty Arcann vs Tulak Hord

on November 26th 2020, 5:17 am
Prime versions both.

Who wins and why?

Give reasons or a scaling chain.


EDIT: No Malak quote allowed for the sake of argument


Last edited by Darth Nihilus on November 26th 2020, 5:52 am; edited 1 time in total
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

Arcann vs Tulak Hord Empty Re: Arcann vs Tulak Hord

on November 26th 2020, 5:39 am
Arcann>SoR HoT>Act 3 HoT>Revan Reborn>Malak>Kun>Hord.
The Fallen Knight
The Fallen Knight

Arcann vs Tulak Hord Empty Re: Arcann vs Tulak Hord

on November 26th 2020, 5:40 am
If we buy Malak's supremacy quote, Arcann wrecks.

Arcann > Hero of Tython > Vitiate (>)> Revan > Darth Malak >> Exar Kun > Tulak Hord

If we don't buy Malak's supremacy quote, I am not sure.


Last edited by DARK LORD OF THE SITH on November 26th 2020, 5:46 am; edited 2 times in total
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

Arcann vs Tulak Hord Empty Re: Arcann vs Tulak Hord

on November 26th 2020, 5:42 am
Unless you have an issue with supremacy quotes on a conceptual level, there's no reason not to buy it
The Fallen Knight
The Fallen Knight

Arcann vs Tulak Hord Empty Re: Arcann vs Tulak Hord

on November 26th 2020, 5:45 am
I buy it but LadyKulvax made a good point. We shouldn't ignore it.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

Arcann vs Tulak Hord Empty Re: Arcann vs Tulak Hord

on November 26th 2020, 5:46 am
Lol
Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Arcann vs Tulak Hord Empty Re: Arcann vs Tulak Hord

on November 26th 2020, 5:52 am
For the sake of argument, lets put the Malak quote aside and form reasons/scaling chains not based on that before this explodes on that.

Side note: If you do buy the Malak quote then wouldn't this scale the whole Old Republic up? If Naga Sadow is superior to Tenebrous and you have the Malak scaling chain, then Malak could potentially be Plagueis level and Kotor Revan above that. Keep working up and the whole Old Republic is enormously scaled up. Just a thought.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

Arcann vs Tulak Hord Empty Re: Arcann vs Tulak Hord

on November 26th 2020, 5:57 am
[size=34]Side note: If you do buy the Malak quote then wouldn't this scale the whole Old Republic up? If Naga Sadow is superior to Tenebrous and you have the Malak scaling chain, then Malak could potentially be Plagueis level and Kotor Revan above that. Keep working up and the whole Old Republic is enormously scaled up. Just a thought.[/size]
This is true to an extent yes. However I still cap Exar Kun below TPM Maul, so any upscaling that happens must keep this in mind.
Shimrra
Shimrra

Arcann vs Tulak Hord Empty Re: Arcann vs Tulak Hord

on November 26th 2020, 6:03 am
Arcann stomps.
Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Arcann vs Tulak Hord Empty Re: Arcann vs Tulak Hord

on November 26th 2020, 6:06 am
@KingofBlades wrote:
[size=34]Side note: If you do buy the Malak quote then wouldn't this scale the whole Old Republic up? If Naga Sadow is superior to Tenebrous and you have the Malak scaling chain, then Malak could potentially be Plagueis level and Kotor Revan above that. Keep working up and the whole Old Republic is enormously scaled up. Just a thought.[/size]
This is true to an extent yes. However I still cap Exar Kun below TPM Maul, so any upscaling that happens must keep this in mind.

So you have Tenebrous vastly below TPM Maul? Also why would you cap Kun below TPM Maul?
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

Arcann vs Tulak Hord Empty Re: Arcann vs Tulak Hord

on November 26th 2020, 1:15 pm
Yes, I hold Tenebrous vastly below TPM Maul. And the reason is Maul is in possession of supremacy quotes that bind him over Kun. The reason I only Bind Kun is because all other notable sith come after the quote's creation.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Arcann vs Tulak Hord Empty Re: Arcann vs Tulak Hord

on November 26th 2020, 9:07 pm
Imagine actually believing TPM Maul is > Kun. Kun would roflstomp Maul. Also, KotOR 2 alone outright retcons Malak quote, Malak's hard capped at Naga Sadow.

Arcann wins from Vitiate scaling, the only legitimate argument you can actually make here.
Meatpants
Meatpants
Moderator | Champion of Darkness
Moderator | Champion of Darkness

Arcann vs Tulak Hord Empty Re: Arcann vs Tulak Hord

on November 26th 2020, 9:26 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:This is true to an extent yes. However I still cap Exar Kun below TPM Maul, so any upscaling that happens must keep this in mind.

May I ask why you sub to that supremacy quote?
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

Arcann vs Tulak Hord Empty Re: Arcann vs Tulak Hord

on November 26th 2020, 11:02 pm
[size=40]May I ask why you sub to that supremacy quote?[/size]
Because it's a quote and I use quotes. The flapbook quote in particular doesn't suffer from possessing information that directly clashes with the EU like those from DK. So I see no reason to dismiss it on that account. If you're wondering why I bind Kun and not Malak or the SWTOR era Sith, it's because I'm constraining the quote's binding authority to it's OOU dating.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level Two
Level Two

Arcann vs Tulak Hord Empty Re: Arcann vs Tulak Hord

on November 27th 2020, 12:36 am
Arcann do to having actual feats besides just accolades

Now if we buy the malak quote pretty much he wrecks

Sidenote: kun is below jinn Arcann vs Tulak Hord 1019854026
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Arcann vs Tulak Hord Empty Re: Arcann vs Tulak Hord

on November 27th 2020, 1:57 am
Given Naga Sadow > Darth Nihilus is canon per Avellone:

Arcann vs Tulak Hord P210

Arcann vs Tulak Hord P310

Darth Traya, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:"The blind seer, her master harnessed this technique and he is rapidly approaching the height of its power. I fear he may even rival some of the ancient Sith. He is already more of a force than a living thing, a hole in the Force that threatens to draw everything to it.”

And Traya states Nihilus is a definitive magnitude beyond themselves and everyone else from the KOTOR series:

Darth Traya, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:“One cannot have power of that magnitude and still think and perceive the universe as we do."

As we all know, her statements are informed and accurate:

Fan & Chris Avellone wrote:"When Kreia speaks of Tulak Hord and his prowess with the Lightsaber, she mentions how ancient Sith Lords would make more modern wielders of the force look like children playing with toys. How does she know this? Is she merely speculating off of information she read? Did she come across his and other Sith holocrons? Was she just making things up? Or, given the sort of clairvoyance she showed at the end of the game, did she possibly glean this information by some kind of psychometry? If the latter most choice is viable, would you have any opinion on how Kreia would compare herself to Hord in terms of raw force power too?"

Avellone: "Kreia is setting the stage for what we imagined KOTOR3 to be, and as we had a sense for the power that we wanted those Sith Lords to reveal, her predictions are accurate. And yes, she had a number of Sith holocrons that she had read (the ones on Telos)."

All of which is supported by the fact that the Tomb of Ludo Kressh holds his life-force energy which is stated to be so far above near-prime Jedi Exile Meetra Surik, that she doesn't 'stand a chance':

Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide wrote:Buried under a mountain of rock at the back of the Shyrack Cave, this ancient tomb conceals a great evil power. Ludo Kressh, Sith Lord, is buried here, and his life force still haunts the halls and passages.

Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide wrote:You don't stand a chance against the overwhelming power of all your companions at once.

Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Official Game Guide wrote:Malak and his companions aren't real; they are phantoms generated by the intense dark-side power concentrated in this tomb.

I'm struggling to see how the magnitude more powerful Nadd, nevermind the far more so Exar Kun, is sub anyone from KotOR.
Seturna
Seturna
Level One
Level One

Arcann vs Tulak Hord Empty Re: Arcann vs Tulak Hord

on November 27th 2020, 2:13 am
Arcann ragdolls.
I_Like_Chee
I_Like_Chee
Level Six
Level Six

Arcann vs Tulak Hord Empty Re: Arcann vs Tulak Hord

on November 27th 2020, 3:51 am
@KingofBlades wrote:Arcann>SoR HoT>Act 3 HoT>Revan Reborn>Malak>Kun>Hord.

Why is Kun above Hord?

Side Comment: I'm very disappointed to have reached 4000 posts, 'tis an incredibly sad milestone.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Arcann vs Tulak Hord Empty Re: Arcann vs Tulak Hord

on November 27th 2020, 4:25 am
1.Hord's an Exile and 2.Kun's straight up the superior Sith of the ancient lines, via numerous statements.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

Arcann vs Tulak Hord Empty Re: Arcann vs Tulak Hord

on November 27th 2020, 4:40 am
NotAA3 wrote:
@KingofBlades wrote:Arcann>SoR HoT>Act 3 HoT>Revan Reborn>Malak>Kun>Hord.

Why is Kun above Hord?

Side Comment: I'm very disappointed to have reached 4000 posts, 'tis an incredibly sad milestone.
I interpret Kun's supremacy quote from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia to mean Kun was the most powerful sith Lord up to that point in history.
DarthFatcow
DarthFatcow

Arcann vs Tulak Hord Empty Re: Arcann vs Tulak Hord

on November 27th 2020, 4:48 am
Hord is too vague to gauge.
Rei
Rei

Arcann vs Tulak Hord Empty Re: Arcann vs Tulak Hord

on November 27th 2020, 9:41 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Are some people still desperately clinging to that outdated and removed Malak quote that has been contradicted on various more up to date sources?

Freedon Nadd alone was considered to be “far worse” than Revan and Malak in Kotor 2 in which even the context later focuses on Nadd’s tomb being a source of dark side power and how its presence make it a dangerous place which aligns more to the implication of Freedon Nadd’s power than being “far worse” in something else.

"Freedon Nadd was a dark Jedi, he conquered Onderon long ago and became their king. The royal line is directly descended from him. The stories say that he was far worse than Revan and Malak ever were. This place is tainted and the Sith presence here makes the danger great."

"The soldier is correct. The dark side is strong here... and it will grant its strength to the Sith."


-Mandalorian Scout & Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
 

You have Tulak Hord and ancient Sith being hyped up in Kotor 2 to the point that Kotor 1 and 2 users are deemed as children playing with toys compared to the lightsaber skill of the ancients. This was also confirmed by Avellone on its accuracy.

"This was the tomb of Tulak Hord, known as the greatest lightsaber duelist of the Sith Lords. His skill was considered remarkable even in his time, when many true lightsaber masters lived. If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old Masters"

―Kreia (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords)

The Emperor in the Old Republic, who is vastly superior to Vitiate who is vastly superior to Malak, deemed that the spirits of the Ancient Sith were a threat to his power let alone their physical incarnations. Yet if the physical incarnations of the ancient Sith were inferior to Malak then I really don’t see how even the spirits of the Ancients would possess any threat to someone like the Emperor who would have been astronomically ahead.

"The Emperor knew the spirits of the ancient Sith Lords could be a threat to his power when he returned to the known galaxy a century later."

―Gnost-Dural, Star Wars: The Old Republic

You then have ancient Sith being scaled above Darth Nihilus who is hyped up as having more power than anyone in the Kotor Era.

“There is no future in the empty galaxy he sees. And that is why he must be stopped; the breach must sealed, before his power grows beyond what even we can hope to stop. One cannot have power of that magnitude that her master possesses and still think and perceive the universe as we do, as most of us do.”

―Darth Traya (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)

Nihilus who is considered to be one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history.

"Darth Nihilus was one of the most powerful Sith Lords in the history of the galaxy, so corrupted that his very presence meant death."

―Star Wars Miniature Bust: Darth Nihilus (Gentle Giant Studios)

Nihilus who has Telekinesis feats that the no-mouthed egghead Malak can only dream of replicating.

And then you have Avellone who bases Tulak’s hype to set the stage for Kotor 3 Sith whom Avellone describes as “far more powerful than Nihilus”.

Q: When Kreia speaks of Tulak Hord and his prowess with the Lightsaber, she mentions how ancient Sith Lords would make more modern wielders of the force look like children playing with toys. How does she know this? Is she merely speculating off of information she read? Did she come across his and other Sith holocrons? Was she just making things up? Or, given the sort of clairvoyance she showed at the end of the game, did she possibly glean this information by some kind of psychometry? If the latter most choice is viable, would you have any opinion on how Kreia would compare herself to Hord in terms of raw force power too?

Avellone: Kreia is setting the stage for what we imagined KOTOR3 to be, and as we had a sense for the power that we wanted those Sith Lords to reveal, her predictions are accurate. And yes, she had a number of Sith holocrons that she had read (the ones on Telos).


Arcann vs Tulak Hord Captur18

But apparently none of that matters as long as Revan gets a nice scaling chain based on an outdated and removed quote that has been contradicted on various up to date sources and lacks any kind of feat to back it up let alone an argument.
I_Like_Chee
I_Like_Chee
Level Six
Level Six

Arcann vs Tulak Hord Empty Re: Arcann vs Tulak Hord

on November 27th 2020, 10:39 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
First, you link "Let it Go", and then you post this wall of shite. Is there any end to how cringepilled you can be?
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

Arcann vs Tulak Hord Empty Re: Arcann vs Tulak Hord

on November 27th 2020, 11:19 am
Message reputation : 100% (8 votes)
Just a tip from one debater to another;if you see an argument propogated by LadyKulvax, it's generally a safe bet to conclude it's wrong Arcann vs Tulak Hord 1289255181
I_Like_Chee
I_Like_Chee
Level Six
Level Six

Arcann vs Tulak Hord Empty Re: Arcann vs Tulak Hord

on November 27th 2020, 11:56 am
Gotta agree with KOB on this one.
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Arcann vs Tulak Hord Empty Re: Arcann vs Tulak Hord

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