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S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 Empty Re: Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet

on November 22nd 2020, 3:56 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:
Valkorion has already lied to the Outlander about countless things

Valkorion wasn't lying to The Outlander but being 'selective' in his revelations all along. Valkorion's agenda was to manipulate The Outlander into doing his bidding; to start a rebellion against The Eternal Empire, rid it from 'oppressive rulers' in Arcann and Vaylin respectively, and take charge of The Eternal Empire as its liberator. Valkorion would subject The Outlander to Transfer Life at this stage. The Outlander was not up to the task however and Valkorion had to make sure that s/he succeed (see below).

@BreakofDawn wrote:
and the Outlander already had Vitiate+ potential.

Correction: Vaylin

The Outlander is the chief protagonist lacking in formal description. S/he is a veteran of the Great Galactic War and proved invaluable to potential allies in numerous situations and theater of operations but not exactly quantifiable in terms of capabilities.

If BioWare promotion content is to be taken at face value then the legendary Hero of Tython became The Outlander and this in turn suggest that he diverged from the path of the Jedi Order at some point. In this case, The Outlander carried with him the potential to become the most powerful Jedi in history (if he had not been already):

"You were under his control, his darkness soaked through to your spirit. When we freed you, you pushed the memories of that training down deep. I can bring those memories back. You're strong enough to handle them. Let the light cure them, make you whole." - Master Orgus Din (Force ghost)

"The Emperor immersed me in the dark side. Darth Revan was the only other Jedi to come back from that. My memories of that time are power. That power is my right and my weapon. I claim it." - The legendary Hero of Tython

The aforementioned interaction occurred before the events of Ziost.

Even such realization of strength wasn't sufficient to stop Valkorion and his family much later in the course of events to follow.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
It wouldn't surprise me if all Valk did was accelerate his growth (to prevent him from burning out from getting too much power too quickly but enough to boost him to the point he needs him to be at to possess him, i.e. at an accelerated growth rate towards his full potential). Regardless, there's a clear distinction between when Valk was powering the Outlander and when the Outlander was acting independently (it's never noted at any point beyond the fight with Arcann that Valk is helping), and that never happens when he fights Vaylin, including at the end of KOTET when he either defeats her singlehandedly or both her and Arcann simultaneously.

That does not make sense and out-of-sync with certain developments. A living being having incredible Force-sensitivity in natural capacity does not suffer from a momentary tap into 'raw power' to much greater extent than the norm; some had 'oneness' moments and did not suffer from them. Examples include Darth Malgus, Anakin Skywalker, Luke Skywalker, Jacen Solo, and Ben Skywalker. A Force-sensitive body has a natural threshold for coping with an episode of release of tremendous amount of energies.

When that threshold is crossed then bodily harm is possible such as in the case of Dorsk 81.

Valkorion could help The Outlander passively and/or actively while residing in the latter's mind; active intervention(s) were not necessary in view of the fact that The Outlander had other allies helping him get through. This much is apparent on different occasions including on the Asylum shadowport*.

*When The Outlander and Arcann met and fought each other for the first time on the Asylum shadowport (Chapter 8 - Knights of the Fallen Empire expansion set), The Outlander was found to be outmatched irrespective of the Class background chosen to define his abilities and his allies had to intervene to save him from certain death by knocking Arcann off the platform into the abyss below (temporary setback to Arcann given his strength and abilities). HK-55 in particular became a casualty in this exchange.

If The Outlander accepted Valkorion's offer to defeat Arcann on the Asylum shadowport then the resultant active intervention proved just as lethal to the host as a lightsaber taken to the gut, and The Outlander passed out from the ordeal (not long after) only for his allies to help him recover.

"Easy. easy. Your body went through quite an ordeal. We weren't sure you'd ever wake up." - Lord Lana Beniko

"Weird thing is, we couldn't find a scratch on you--not even inside." - Koth Vortena

The aforementioned make sense in view of the fact that Valkorion could blow up a WORLD - he could release so much energies in one go. Even on the Asylum shadowport where he directed much of his attack towards Arcann, stray bolts were electrocuting military-grade starships mid-air and caused much collateral damage by extension. Starship movements and shipping activity came to a standstill across the region consequently. Even Palpatine could not produce matching effects on military-grade Starships with Sith Lightning (Episode 9). And Valkorion was lacking in strength in this situation as per Arcann.

Valkorion had to come up with a permanent solution in view of the above: Valkorion transformed The Outlander into a remarkably powerful Force-user on Odessen (Chapter 12 - Knights of the Fallen Empire expansion set):

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- a demonstration of powers akin to Midichlorian Manipulation or much the same but "the archives are incomplete."

"Valkorion strengthened your bond to the Force." - Satele Shan

+

"A bond to the Force as intense as yours brings with it powerful insight." - Satele Shan

+

"You were an exemplary pawn, one I forged into a vessel of supreme power--worthy of preserving my spirit." - Valkorion

The Outlander was finally up to the task - befitting of the hype s/he would receive as The Alliance Commander in conversations.

How can a player overlook such a core part of the story?

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Also worth mentioning that Valkorion himself makes countless references to the Outlander's innate potential and his ability to become far more powerful than he currently is, so the idea that he drastically increased the Outlander's innate potential makes very little sense to me.

See above.

Motivation is important at times; being powerful in the ways of the Force helps on top.

@BreakofDawn wrote:

I've no idea how you can make that assumption given no one else even tried to do so. The context is equally important given that you're implying KFV or another tier 9 couldn't replicate it, or more importantly that it's not a contextual feat that isn't combat applicable.

Did you just forget that the Jedi and Sith were unable to make use of their Force powers on NATHEMA to significant effect due to this planet being a VOID in the Force for so long? The Jedi and Sith could not even live on NATHEMA for long - they risked perishing on this world otherwise. I am not sure how being TIER 9 in lightsaber dueling will help any Jedi or Sith in this context. Not just the Jedi and Sith but virtually all Force-users experienced problems on NATHEMA including Valkorion himself who was responsible for this corruption in the first place.

"My power is limited here, but I will do what I can to shield you and your companions from the worst effects of the void." - Valkorion

That Vaylin was able to blow apart Sanitarium on NATHEMA is a feat which make her stand apart from others in the lore; credit where due. This feat is indicative of the fact that Vaylin would be FAR MORE CAPABLE in normal environments. This was the point all along.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
At best she was providing 1/3 of the power to lift the Gravestone along the Outlander (who even when weakened vastly outstrips her in power) and Senya. It's virtually impossible to quantify exactly how much power she was providing.

True, but I was simply acknowledging her contributions and implied greatness in my statement. Lord Lana is typically under-appreciated in conversations which is not fair in my books. I give credit where due.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
...Okay? Koth was also slammed into a wall by Vaylin and shook it off, and he's a NFU. I fail to see the link between their recovery rate in a game (hell, the Outlander is able to fight briefly after being stabbed through the gut in gameplay despite barely being able to stand) and their Force power. That's willpower/plot driven, not a marker of Force power.

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Some people found themselves in (logically and theoretically) lethal situations and lived to tell the tale afterwards in real life; Koth's moment fit the bill I suppose.

Force-users had to cope with life-threatening situations on a frequent basis like a tank on the other hand. I think I am forgetting some dialogue in this regard but nevermind.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
These aren't combat feats.

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Allies of The Outlander were helping him in combat situations and otherwise (scores of examples come to mind). The Alliance Commander is called one for good reason. Nobody can just solo through all manner of challenges even in works of FICTION.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
This is irrelevant.

No, it is not. Her contributions made difference for The Outlander - he may not have succeeded without her efforts.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
I assume we can quantify who that single Horizon Guard has seen display their power, then? Because frankly, it's an empty accolade. At best he's seen Arcann's power, who's already only ~ chained Vaylin.

The galaxy was in a state of war once again and The Eternal Empire was dealing with a rebellion at the time. The Knights of Zakuul were active on the front-lines and the Horizon Guard serving Vaylin could be veterans, or had seen much before joining the ranks of the ELITE.

There is virtually no documented instance of a Force-user managing to LIFT a bunch of ELITE Knights of Zakuul from the ground while choking them and being able to kill them all in one spell; this is a far more tedious and complex method of dispatching opponents of such caliber then Force-pushing them around and/or through dueling skills. Lord Lana managed to LIFT just one Knight of Zakuul from the ground while choking him and she found this to be a very challenging way to dispatch one, let alone a bunch of them and being ELITES on top. Sheer disparity in strength of Lord Lana and Vaylin is obvious from the two feats of similar kind.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Where is she struggling there? She's deliberately tormenting him and shows no visible sign of effort.

Take another look.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
I'm fully aware of Vaylin's feats. You've probably misread my post as claiming Lana ~ chained Vaylin when I was actually pointing out how even characters massively sub chained Vaylin (such as Lana, who was ragdolled by her) can send Knights flying, dispatch several, and pretty easily break through their passive Force defences. Ragdolling a group of them isn't nearly as impressive as you're making it out to be.

I am not misreading your statements, mate. See my explanation below for some clarity.

There are different methods to dispatch an opponent. Some methods are more tedious than the others and will produce different effects on the same subject.

Lord Lana could dispatch a Knight of Zakuul through her skills with a lightsaber?
Lord Lana could dispatch a Knight of Zakuul through a Force push?
Lord Lana could dispatch a Knight of Zakuul through a Force choke?
Lord Lana could dispatch a Knight of Zakuul through a combination of Force Lift and Force choke?

In each instance, Lord Lana will have to invest and exert on a different level to achieve the desired end (i.e. dispatching the opponent).

Putting the aforementioned into context; your assertion that Vaylin's accomplishment [vs. a group of Elites among the Knights of Zakuul] is not a big deal in view of HOW Lord Lana was able to dispatch lesser opponents, is not sound. That Lord Lana was able to take on and dispatch 4 x Knights of Zakuul in one of her confrontations is a very impressive showing on her part (credit where due) but even this accomplishment pales in comparison to HOW Vaylin dispatched a larger group of (and stronger) Knights of Zakuul with her raw power - focus on the HOW part emphasized in comparative context.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
First, the Republic and Empire were both heavily weakened by years of war. Second, that's not how the Eternal Empire won the war, only individual battles:

O: Which side did Arcann attack first?
L: Both. Ships from the Eternal Fleet struck at shipyards and rallying points for both sides simultaneously. They favoured ambush tactics throughout the war. Zakuulan sensor technology has far greater range than our own and their ships can fly much further on less resources. Only vessels retrofitted with isotope 5 could manage to outrun them. None could truly compete.
O: How long did the Republic and the Empire manage to hold out?
L: Within three months, the bulk of our naval forces were disabled or eliminated, and the Republic was in the same situation. With naval superiority Arcann's forces could begin choking off supply lines, trade, any ship travel at all. The eternal fleet seemed to be everywhere at once. Coruscant and Dromund Kaas were blockaded by the end of the first year.


The Knights might be superior to the average Jedi or Sith, but that's after years of warfare that weakened both sides and the reason they won is because of the Eternal Fleet. No details are given regarding the losses on both sides in ground battles.

That revelation does not refute my statement: "Such contingents of Knights of Zakuul are actually credited for defeating the Jedi and Sith in numbers, and making it possible for The Eternal Empire to subjugate both The Republic and The Empire by extension."

Another perspective of the same conflict:

"The Republic and Empire could not stop Arcann at the height of their powers. They're even more worthless now." - The Outlander (Sith Warrior Class)

They can still help us, even if it's only as cannon and fodder. - Lord Lana Beniko

Fleets do not help win a war, boots on the ground do:



ANALOGY # 1: The Battle of Endor was won on the surface of the moon and from within the Death Star - fleets clashing above and around were secondary.

ANALOGY # 2: The Battle of Lehon was won on the surface of the planet and from within the Star Forge - fleets clashing above and around were secondary.

Technology is and will remain an important consideration but it is the man behind the machine who will make difference in the end.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
You've yet to prove that manhandling Knights of Zakuul - who are around the same level as fodder Jedi/Sith in the game - is something the likes of KFV couldn't replicate.

Refer back to the footage of Satele Shan and Darth Marr addressing The Outlander on Odesson (Chapter 12 - Knights of the Fallen Empire expansion set).

I recall a battle in which several Knights of Zakuul were really close to overwhelming the TRIO of The Outlander, Lord Lana, and Senya Tirall (a Knight of Zakuul herself) in open environment, but Valkorion's active intervention saved the day (Chapter 5 - Knights of the Fallen Empire expansion set).

Vaylin being able to destroy an entire battalion of the Knights of Zakuul in open environment with her powers is BIG ******* DEAL from any perspective. This is not the same as dealing with scores of standard-issue droids (or thugs) - something well within the capacity of a powerful Jedi in the lore. Dozens of well-trained Force-users - each being a match for a well-trained Jedi (or Sith) on individual level - equipped with heavy gear for potential battles in open environment is a FORCE far more capable than any conventional army in Star Wars. Knights of Zakuul were particularly effective in group settings by virtue of their faction rules which encouraged sharing of knowledge and practice of all manner of Force powers (Light and Dark). Senya was in shock when she witnessed destruction of an entire battalion of the Knights of Zakuul in open environment before confronting her daughter for the second time; Senya realized that her daughter could kill her any instant but Vaylin still had feelings for her mother. BioWare did not expand much on the capabilities of the Knights of Zakuul on a more personal level such as in the case of the Jedi and Sith; this lack of depth is bad storytelling in my view.

Wholesale slaughter of well-trained Force-users on that scale through Telekinetic applications is uncommon development in Star Wars. Only the most powerful applications of the Force provided such a window otherwise, and only Tulak Hord, Darth Nihilus, and Valkorion have accomplishments of the sort.

Count Dooku was reluctant to take his chances with 30 odd pirates without his lightsaber in open environment; same guy who could exchange blows with Yoda otherwise. If Vaylin was in the same situation, she would have killed all pirates without breaking a sweat. She could absorb blaster-shots as well.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
He's communicating to them mentally, so no, it's telepathy.

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 1220391476

Telepathy does not have any impact on the space-time continuum and materialize in consort with normal flow of events.

Following is Telepathy (Force Persuasion):



Following is Telepathy (Mind Control):

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Following is Telepathy (Mind Control):

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 7408099-2468804682-Star-

Following is manipulation of the space-time continuum:

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 6757150-5456000611-64629

+

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 6757156-9107493480-64629

The environment appears to freeze in time and the esoteric wave of dark side energy produced by the host begins to engage those in close proximity while they are still frozen in time, and the course of events completely shift in a blink of an eye consequently. Other living beings besides the host are unable to react to this development.

Other living beings besides the host should be able to react to raw Telepathic developments otherwise:

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 7408835-5631270001-Star-

For general knowledge: There are some Force powers which necessitate proficiency in a number of other Force powers in order to be employed successfully.

Proficiency in Telepathy could be one of the prerequisites for unlocking the ability to manipulate the space-time continuum.

Space-Time Manipulation in another medium for reference:



@BreakofDawn wrote:
I feel like you're referencing Fold Space, which is something completely different. He's not reality warping, he's perception altering. He's basically doing this, if you'll forgive the use of a separate franchise to give a comparison:

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 Superm10

See above.

Fold Space also involves manipulation of the space-time continuum but to different effect such as Teleportation.

Darth Plagueis offered some perspective:

"The aperion governs the cohesion of the matter, from the atoms of a pebble to all planets and gravity in the universe. This includes the dimension of time. Through aperion, space-time may be manipulated on a grand scale - that is if a user channels sufficient energy through his aggregate midi-chlorians while maintaining focus and accuracy.

I believe an individual could step instantly from one place to another by folding space, regardless of the intervening distance. Similarly one could be able to fold time - not to temporarily displace a physical object, but to shift one's consciousness backward and forward along time's flow. Such a thing would permit the study of all knowledge through history, and even the secrets recorded in the long lost library of Silversisi."
- Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

Darth Jadus demonstrating Fold Space:

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 4481299-5691729980-s5Unm

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 4481300-2393409239-dY5d3

Valkorion demonstrated Fold Space akin to a Force Storm (Wormhole) on Yavin 4:

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 7412972-1991330868-SWTOR

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 7412974-8675787917-SWTOR

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 7412979-2030964685-SWTOR

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"We suffered many casualties upon the Emperor's return..." - Darth Marr

Perhaps it was.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Or he wanted to make sure everyone was dead and did it systematically as he was ordered to. KFV scales above characters who could collapse buildings approaching that scale and he himself has TK feats from when he was Anakin that compare. Collapsing the Temple would not only have been ineffective, but pointless as the Jedi would have still escaped.

Anakin Skywalker by virtue of his sheer Midichlorian count and resultant potential, was capable of spectacular demonstrations of raw power with sufficient concentration but not on a consistent basis because he had "mental issues." Master Obi-Wan Kenobi was deemed sufficient by Master Yoda to stop Darth Vader in his tracks but not Palpatine.

Contrasting mindsets for reference:

As every step becomes more perilous and Vader's attacks more ferocious, Obi-Wan realizes that he still cares for Anakin, and that the only way he can defeat his opponent is to let go of his feelings for his former friend. When Obi-Wan releases this emotional attachment, the battle turns for the Jedi. - Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide

vs.

"Driven by the dark side to greed and overweening arrogance, Anakin refused to accept that Obi-Wan has the advantage when his Master occupies the high ground on the bank of the lava river." - Star Wars: Complete Locations

Darth Vader (Episode 3) could not even Force push Obi-Wan around.

Following are not canon but Food for Thought nevertheless:

https://www.wired.com/2007/05/anakin-skywalker-borderline-personality-bipolar-or-narcissist/

https://www.livescience.com/10679-psychology-darth-vader-revealed.html

Vaylin would prove to be a much greater foe to Darth Vader than Obi-Wan because she was much stronger than the latter and could concentrate very well. She was able to respond to every move of Arcann who had much experience fighting the Jedi and Sith among others and a remarkably skilled duelist on top, and when he paused, Vaylin threw a heavy speeder on him and jumped off the platform. Given her exceptional Force sense, she would be able to take advantage of even a momentary lapse in judgement of Darth Vader and defeat him on the spot. She have sufficient raw power to dominate Darth Vader with her Force powers anyways.

---

Collapsing the Jedi Temple would be ineffective? Like seriously? How many exit points this building had? Vaylin could cause the power grid of the Jedi Temple to explode and it would have done the trick; those inside the building could be caught unaware and...

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Ok, and? The quote doesn't mean anything.

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 1220391476

It is meaningful revelation.


Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on November 23rd 2020, 1:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 Empty Re: Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet

on November 22nd 2020, 4:04 pm
@DarthFatcow wrote:Vaylin isn't beating a tier 9 who's above Yoda and equal to RoTS Sidious in power, let alone Luke, lol.
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 Empty Re: Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet

on November 22nd 2020, 5:48 pm
^^^

Lightsaber dueling TIERS conceived by Nick Gillard is not self-sufficient consideration:

"How does one quantify fighting prowess, and does such a quantity have any practical value? When Stunt Coordinator and Sword Master Nick Gillard sets down to script a lightsaber duel, he needs to have some guage as to how competent the combatants are. On equal-footing, such ranking could easily determine the victor. Star Wars duels, however, rarely occur on equal footing or level ground." - Homing Beacon #126

Numerous variables are likely to decide a victor in a duel for the combatants involved.

Try to reconcile Obi-Wan Kenobi's victory over Darth Vader in a duel on Mustafar with Nick Gillard's TIERS for instance; does not fit in.

I am not sure why some fans cling to a fallible/questionable metric to evaluate dueling outcomes.
DarthFatcow
DarthFatcow

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 Empty Re: Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet

on November 23rd 2020, 10:38 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Lightsaber dueling TIERS conceived by Nick Gillard is not self-sufficient consideration
The tiers were conceived by Lucas and Gillard, by default making the highest form of canon.

Numerous variables are likely to decide a victor in a duel for the combatants involved.
Yes. And Gillard explained that, in regards to the mindset and mentality of a combatant.

Try to reconcile Obi-Wan Kenobi's victory over Darth Vader in a duel on Mustafar with Nick Gillard's TIERS for instance; does not fit in.
Context and Circumstances :
1. Obi Wan knew how Anakin fought and his style, already giving him an advantage
2. Obi Wan had an environmental advantage
3. Anakin's mental state wasn't in the right place, considering that a focused Anakin mopped the floor with Dooku, who's superior to every version of Obi Wan.
This doesn't prove that the tiers don't fit in, at all.

I am not sure why some fans cling to a fallible/questionable metric to evaluate dueling outcomes.
It's not questionable or fallible. Those tiers were created by Lucas and Gillard :
In order to design and choreograph this most important of scenes, Gillard and Lucas decided upon each Jedi's dexterity
They weren't solely conceived by Gillard himself.

I am not sure why some fans cling to a fallible/questionable metric to evaluate dueling outcomes.
Even if we throw out the tiers made by Lucas and Gillard, Vaylin doesn't really have anything to suggest that she's even remotely on Anakin's level in terms of lightsaber combat, and he can outlast her with RoTS Sidious level force reserves.
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 Empty Re: Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet

on November 23rd 2020, 2:07 pm
@DarthFatcow wrote:
The tiers were conceived by Lucas and Gillard, by default making the highest form of canon.

The rating system [in question] helped them keep tabs on advances in dueling skills of characters introduced in the movies. For example, Anakin Skywalker was rated TIER 6 when he fought Count Dooku on Geonosis (Episode 2), and was rated TIER 9 when he fought Count Dooku on Invisible Hand (Episode 3).

That is the point of it.

How can WE (the fans) reconcile said rating system with content outside the movies? How can WE figure out which Legends character fit in which TIER of Lightsaber dueling and moved from which TIER to which TIER as they developed further?

Meaningful hint: WE cannot.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Yes. And Gillard explained that, in regards to the mindset and mentality of a combatant.

Duh? The rating system [in question] cannot be taken at face value for deciding hypothetical versus contests because it does not factor-in numerous variables which can be instructive otherwise.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Context and Circumstances :
1. Obi Wan knew how Anakin fought and his style, already giving him an advantage
2. Obi Wan had an environmental advantage
3. Anakin's mental state wasn't in the right place, considering that a focused Anakin mopped the floor with Dooku, who's superior to every version of Obi Wan.
This doesn't prove that the tiers don't fit in, at all.

1. Both understood each other well enough - neither had any advantage in this context.
2. Not throughout; Darth Vader was not even able to Force push Obi-Wan Kenobi around (shame).
3. Darth Vader wasn't lacking in combat-applicable concentration since he was fighting in a deadly environment and was able to navigate through it and carry himself very well while exchanging blows with his opponent.

Distinguishing factor is highlighted below:

As every step becomes more perilous and Vader's attacks more ferocious, Obi-Wan realizes that he still cares for Anakin, and that the only way he can defeat his opponent is to let go of his feelings for his former friend. When Obi-Wan releases this emotional attachment, the battle turns for the Jedi. - Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide

vs.

Driven by the dark side to greed and overweening arrogance, Anakin refused to accept that Obi-Wan has the advantage when his Master occupies the high ground on the bank of the lava river. - Star Wars: Complete Locations

Darth Vader being rated TIER 9 in his skills with a Lightsaber did not help him achieve breakthrough against Obi-Wan, or did it?

@DarthFatcow wrote:
It's not questionable or fallible. Those tiers were created by Lucas and Gillard :
In order to design and choreograph this most important of scenes, Gillard and Lucas decided upon each Jedi's dexterity
They weren't solely conceived by Gillard himself.

See above.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Even if we throw out the tiers made by Lucas and Gillard, Vaylin doesn't really have anything to suggest that she's even remotely on Anakin's level in terms of lightsaber combat, and he can outlast her with RoTS Sidious level force reserves.  

And you know that for sure?

Vaylin is in the TIER of the most skilled duelists in her time since she stalemated Arcann in a duel who in turn was able to handle 'any' character class considered for The Outlander (this is by design). The Outlander could be the legendary Hero of Tython (cue BioWare promotion materials) and just this consideration provides much needed depth to help evaluate both Vaylin and Arcann in the aspect of skills with a Lightsaber.

Vaylin also have prodigious Force powers - above and beyond the likes of Obi-Wan and Count Dooku.

Vaylin is very well equipped to challenge Anakin Skywalker from virtually any perspective and as a whole.

Anakin was capable of spectacular feats with sufficient concentration but not on a consistent basis due to his mindset - he is difficult to evaluate in the versus context. He defeated Count Dooku but lost to Obi-Wan in the span of same Episode. Going by these showings, he might press Vaylin (and falter).
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 Empty Re: Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet

on November 23rd 2020, 4:18 pm
Even though I have Vaylin pretty high in term of power (cf my huge commitment to her during the Top 15 Tournament) I'm not sure that she can defeat Pre-Suited Vader.
DarthFatcow
DarthFatcow

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 Empty Re: Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet

on November 23rd 2020, 4:39 pm
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)


The rating system [in question] helped them keep tabs on advances in dueling skills of characters introduced in the movies. For example, Anakin Skywalker was rated TIER 6 when he fought Count Dooku on Geonosis (Episode 2), and was rated TIER 9 when he fought Count Dooku on Invisible Hand (Episode 3).

That is the point of it.

How can WE (the fans) reconcile said rating system with content outside the movies? How can WE figure out which Legends character fit in which TIER of Lightsaber dueling and moved from which TIER to which TIER as they developed further?

Meaningful hint: WE cannot.

You're right. In a sense that it it would be difficult to rank characters based on said system that exist outside of G-Canon. You can evaluate said character's showings and accolades and compare them to tier 8's and 9's and see how they stack up. It'


Duh? The rating system [in question] cannot be taken at face value for deciding hypothetical versus contests because it does not factor-in numerous variables which can be instructive otherwise.
How can it not factor other variables when the person who made co created has flat out said the mindset and mentality matter?

1. Both understood each other well enough - neither had any advantage in this context.
Obi Wan had the advantage of being the one who trained Anakin. Let's not forget that shall we.

2. Not throughout; Darth Vader was not even able to Force push Obi-Wan Kenobi around (shame).
The only reason Obi Wan managed to survive and drag on the fight was due to the environment.

Darth Vader wasn't lacking in combat-applicable concentration since he was fighting in a deadly environment and was able to navigate through it and carry himself very well while exchanging blows with his opponent.
Yes. He clearly wasn't lacking in combat applicable concentration, that's why he decided to attack an opponent who had the advantage of higher ground. Does that really sound like someone who's at a 100% mental state?

As every step becomes more perilous and Vader's attacks more ferocious, Obi-Wan realizes that he still cares for Anakin, and that the only way he can defeat his opponent is to let go of his feelings for his former friend. When Obi-Wan releases this emotional attachment, the battle turns for the Jedi
This quote is already overridden by higher canonical sources, such as the tiering system which you don't consider valid. Gillard has basically said that the mental aspect was a key reason to Obi Wan's win on Mustafar.

Driven by the dark side to greed and overweening arrogance, Anakin refused to accept that Obi-Wan has the advantage when his Master occupies the high ground on the bank of the lava river.
Yes. This also alludes to the fact that Anakin's mental state was obviously hindered.

Darth Vader being rated TIER 9 in his skills with a Lightsaber did not help him achieve breakthrough against Obi-Wan, or did it?
Again, you're omitting the mental discipline, which Gillard has explained plays a crucial factor in determining the outcome of a fight. Anakin's mentality along with the environmental advantages Obi Wan had are the two main reasons why Obi Wan won. He didn't win through skill, because on any other neutral battle ground Anakin would have steamrolled through Obi Wan.

And you know that for sure?
Yes.

Vaylin is in the TIER of the most skilled duelists in her time since she stalemated Arcann in a duel who in turn was able to handle 'any' character class considered for The Outlander (this is by design).
Vaylin's time doesn't have duelists that are even as half impressive as Grievous. And Last I checked neither the outlander nor Arcann have equal lightsaber combat skill to RoTS Sidious, whom Anakin is equal to.

The Outlander could be the legendary Hero of Tython (cue BioWare promotion materials) and just this consideration provides much needed depth to help evaluate both Vaylin and Arcann in the aspect of skills with a Lightsaber.
Even if The Outlander was The HoT, Anakin already scales so far above that.

Vaylin also have prodigious Force powers - above and beyond the likes of Obi-Wan and Count Dooku.
And Anakin also has force powers above and beyond Obi Wan and Count Dooku. Anakin was also effectively equal to RoTS Sidious.

Vaylin is very well equipped to challenge Anakin Skywalker from virtually any perspective and as a whole.
Based on what?

Anakin was capable of spectacular feats with sufficient concentration but not on a consistent basis due to his mindset - he is difficult to evaluate in the versus context. He defeated Count Dooku but lost to Obi-Wan in the span of same Episode.
He really isn't difficult to evaluate at all. His showings are pretty straight forward. We already know what a mentally stable Anakin is capable of, like steamrolling Count Dooku, steamrolling through the Jedi temple and single handily holding back an atmosphere storm. And we know what a mentally unstable Anakin isn't capable of, which is not being able to beat Obi Wan, even though he outskills by a large margin. Those two showings don't really contradict each other. And for that matter, that Obi Wan showing is the only real notable showing a mentally unstable Anakin has. We know what both mindsets are capable of. You're choosing to focus the mentally unstable one and assuming he's going to fight Vaylin in an unstable mindset, which he really won't. If we're gonna argue consistency of showings Vaylin couldn't one shot Koth. So yeah I think I'm going to stick to my arguments until I see something that convinces me otherwise.
Rei
Rei

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 Empty Re: Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet

on November 23rd 2020, 5:28 pm
@DarthFatcow

Glad to see a lot of out of context statements being corrected.
Supreme Leader
Supreme Leader

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 Empty Re: Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet

on November 24th 2020, 10:50 am
Stops at 5
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 Empty Re: Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet

on November 25th 2020, 5:40 pm
@DarthFatcow wrote:
You're right. In a sense that it it would be difficult to rank characters based on said system that exist outside of G-Canon. You can evaluate said character's showings and accolades and compare them to tier 8's and 9's and see how they stack up. It'

Thanks. Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 1289255181  

Star Wars as a theme present idiosyncratic realities to audience for entertainment and consumption, and there is a need to connect the right dots in [our] assessment to reach sensible conclusions.



Key takeaways:

- The rating system adopted by him was a Base Construct to help him write for each character
- Difference between 7 and 9 is enormous
- Difference between 8 and 9 is cheat
- Enlightened pathway to higher TIER (the right way)
- LSD pathway to higher TIER (temporary gains)
- The Seven Forms of Lightsaber Combat became the law (canonized by his peers)

Nick Gillard felt the need to have a BASE CONSTRUCT to help him write for each character to keep up with demands of storytelling while working with George Lucas and he came up with a rating system (a conceptual framework) for the needful. This rating system fell short at providing meaningful answers for 'which character will defeat the other in a potential duel' nevertheless and The Seven Forms of Lightsaber Combat were conceived and advanced for the needful in its place. The bolded theme help explain how Anakin outdueled Count Dooku and how Obi-Wan was able to handle Anakin (Episode 3) - see [2] below.

"But they are enlightened; they have done it the right way - they have learned how to be enlightened. But if you take LSD, you can get to that place for a few hours. You cheated your way there. And that is how I see with Anakin - his training wasn't good enough; he was too old; he got trained too late; he got twisted by the dark side. He took Force LSD. And that is what made him a nine - so that's dangerous. You know it's dangerous because he hasn't done it the right way. But he is still a nine - still something you need to deal with. So that's where the Forms came from." - Nick Gillard

Emphasis mine. Anakin having TIER 9 skills with a Lightsaber does not translate into 'superiority' over every character in his time and otherwise. For reference:



This battle was a powerful vision experienced by Master Yoda before the events of Episode 3 but it is noteworthy due to belligerents being accurately scaled relative to each other and it foreshadow events to come. Anakin manage to outduel Count Dooku and dismember him much like on the Invisible Hand but when he confronts Palpatine, he finds himself to be completely outmatched and is overwhelmed. At a closer look, Palpatine is able to duel both Anakin and Yoda at the same time and overwhelm the former in the process. This vision is in sync with ground realities established in Episode 3. Thanks in part to this vision, Yoda knew better and convinced Master Obi-Wan Kenobi to confront Anakin instead. Even if Obi-Wan had accompanied Yoda in the latter's duel with Palpatine, he would have been easily dismissed by the powerful Sith Lord. Only Yoda could keep up with Palpatine for a respectable amount of time in a potential battle.

Anakin had much 'raw power' in him but he was lacking in the 'command of the Force' aspect and 'mental discipline' needed to harness his powers to his advantage on a consistent basis. The 'command of the Force' aspect have following spectrums; (1) Control; (2) Sense; and (3) Alter. Mastery of each discipline is essential to unlock great powers and develop the prerequisite 'mental discipline' to harness them. If a Force-user is lacking in any spectrum, then this shortcoming must be addressed because 'raw power' or inherent potential can carry one so far. - - - - - - [1]

I am aware of some statements hyping Anakin as the most powerful Jedi in his time (and/or beyond) but the battle sequence in Yoda's vision is the latest and most accurate depiction of how the movie characters stack up to each other at the conclusion of The Clone Wars which in turn is representative of the fiction view of George Lucas solidified over the course of years.

Anakin certainly had the potential to become the most powerful Force-user ever and fulfill the prophesy of The Chosen One - a theme which was revisited in the Mortis chapter but both would not come to pass. The Son foresaw what Anakin would become instead (i.e. Cybernetic Darth Vader of the Original Trilogy) and The Father erased this knowledge from the mind of Anakin before the latter departed from the Mortis realm, and the Mortis chapter was itself concluded with demise of The Ones. Anakin managed to fulfill the prophesy of The Chosen One by destroying Palpatine in the Battle of Endor, or so it is believed because Palpatine returned after a break and other Skywalkers had to deal with him.

Logically and realistically - Anakin had become one of the most powerful Jedi in his time besides Obi-Wan, Mace Windu and Yoda. He have his fair share of impressive feats to account for. However, Anakin having TIER 9 skills with a Lightsaber does not translate into 'superiority' over every ancient character introduced in the mythos unless his 'command of the Force' outstrip that of each, does it?

@DarthFatcow wrote:
How can it not factor other variables when the person who made co created has flat out said the mindset and mentality matter?

See above.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Obi Wan had the advantage of being the one who trained Anakin. Let's not forget that shall we.

So the student could not surpass his Master and/or defeat him? Anakin was forbidden to learn from other sources? Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 1220391476

Food for thought:

1. Freedon Nadd surpassed Naga Sadow and killed him.
2. Exar Kun surpassed Master Vodo-Siosk Baas and defeated him in single combat.
3. Revan surpassed his Jedi instructors.
4. Meetra Surik defeated Darth Traya in single combat.
5. The legendary Hero of Tython surpassed his Jedi instructors.
6. Darth Bane surpassed his Brotherhood instructors.
7. Darth Zannah defeated Darth Bane in single combat.

A Jedi can seek training from a number of Jedi Masters and not necessarily the one who is officially assigned to him for the needful; a Jedi can learn things from exposure to different sources. As Anakin grew older and wiser, he could acquire talents distinct from that of Ob-Wan and even teach him a few tricks:

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"Soresu is well served by Obi-Wan's innate capacity for patience and perception, but the key to mastery is audacity, a talent he has learned from Anakin."

Anakin pointed out to Padme that he have acquired new powers:

"Love won't save you, Padme. Only my new powers can do that."

Those 'new powers' would be courtesy of Palpatine and/or experiences detached from Obi-Wan.

Anakin was a practitioner of Form V whereas Obi-Wan was a practitioner of Form III; the two diverged in this respect since the events of Episode II.

Obi-Wan had better 'mental discipline' and his resultant proficiency in Form III proved meaningful (versus Anakin) - this was his advantage.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
The only reason Obi Wan managed to survive and drag on the fight was due to the environment.

"Obi-Wan is a great mentor; as wise as Master Yoda, and as powerful as Master Windu." - Anakin Skywalker

Really?

Obi-Wan was powerful enough to cope with stresses of the environment much like Anakin:

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 Obi-Wan-and-Anakin-duel-Mustafar

- as well as Anakin's powers:

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+

They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth. - Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith: Novelization

- and prevailed due to following factor:

As every step becomes more perilous and Vader's attacks more ferocious, Obi-Wan realizes that he still cares for Anakin, and that the only way he can defeat his opponent is to let go of his feelings for his former friend. When Obi-Wan releases this emotional attachment, the battle turns for the Jedi. - Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide

The aforementioned statement is ported to the Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded Edition sourcebook and reinforced by the following source:

The man he faced was everything Obi-Wan had devoted his life to destroying: Murderer. Traitor. Fallen Jedi. Lord of the Sith. And here, and now, despite it all ...
Obi-Wan still loved him. Yoda had said it, flat-out: Allow such attachments to pass out of one's life, a Jedi must, but Obi-Wan had never let himself understand. He had argued for Anakin, made excuses, covered for him again and again and again; all the while this attachment he denied even feeling had blinded him to the dark path his best friend walked. Obi-Wan knew there was, in the end, only one answer for attachment .
.
.
He let it go.
- Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith: Novelization

Even if you consider the alternative battle sequence:



- in which Anakin produced a tsunami of lava and pushed it towards Obi-Wan, the latter was able to counter this move with his defensive applications, leap towards Anakin's pod and cut him to size. Straightforward victory in this case.

The alternative battle sequence was not considered because Lucas did not want to advance Obi-Wan as being the "aggressor." This battle sequence nevertheless show that Obi-Wan was more than capable of handling Anakin in a duel.

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@DarthFatcow wrote:
Yes. He clearly wasn't lacking in combat applicable concentration, that's why he decided to attack an opponent who had the advantage of higher ground. Does that really sound like someone who's at a 100% mental state?

Anakin wasn't lacking in combat-applicable concentration on Mustafar (there were situations in which a single misstep could lead to fall into lava).

Anakin did show bad judgement when Obi-Wan reached the higher ground much later in the course of the duel.

Anakin is not unique in miscalculating his options - numerous characters are guilty of bad judgements and lost their lives in the process. Nobody living have infallible judgement all the time.

Count Dooku's loss to Anakin on Invisible Hand can also be attributed to bad judgement on his part because Palpatine convinced him that he would intervene should he falter. Star Wars: Labyrinth of Evil provide much needed backstory context to this duel. This is not to say that Anakin could not defeat Count Dooku under normal circumstances (cue revelations in Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith: Novelization) but the latter could fight his way out of the Starship and escape - using his Force powers - if he had known that he was expendable and Palpatine would betray him (the bigger picture).

Like this:

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If Count Dooku was there on Mustafar, he could defeat Obi-Wan in a duel - higher ground or not. Count Dooku was simply better in the application of Telekinesis and this skill served him well (versus Obi-Wan). Anakin could not break through Obi-Wan's defenses on the other hand and ended up fighting Obi-Wan on his strongest terms (proficiency in Form III of Lightsaber combat); this is why Anakin failed. Count Dooku's proficiency in Form II of Lightsaber combat had become a weakness (versus Anakin's proficiency in Form V of Lightsaber combat) - a weakness not applicable to Obi-Wan and he had a better shot against Anakin therefore. - - - - - - [2]

A > B > C = Misleading perspective while evaluating Anakin, Count Dooku and Obi-Wan respectively.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
This quote is already overridden by higher canonical sources, such as the tiering system which you don't consider valid. Gillard has basically said that the mental aspect was a key reason to Obi Wan's win on Mustafar.

Gillard's assertions can be instructive but do not override published statements. Obi-Wan transcending his emotional attachment with Anakin in order to defeat him, is a revelation which add context to their duel on Mustafar and advanced by several sources (see above).

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Yes. This also alludes to the fact that Anakin's mental state was obviously hindered.

For years I have noticed some fans refusing to come to terms with Anakin's loss to Obi-Wan in a duel and offering questionable rationalizations in debates. About time somebody question these rationalizations.

"Driven by the dark side to greed and overweening arrogance, Anakin refused to accept that Obi-Wan has the advantage when his Master occupies the high ground on the bank of the lava river." = Anakin looked down upon Obi-Wan and refused to consider the possibility that he could be defeated.

Overweening = "being too proud or confident in yourself." (Cambridge)

Arrogance = "an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions." (Merriam-Webster)

Overweening arrogance = "excessively arrogant or presumptuous" (Google)

Try to reconcile the aforementioned with [2] and you have the perfect answer. Consider the alternative battle sequence in the mix if you still have doubts.  

Anakin had joined the Sith and was now driven by emotions in full capacity - this does not suggest 'mental hindrance'.

Sith are driven by EMOTIONS in their exploits:

But true Sith, as they are understood today, are actually descended from fallen Jedi. Driven by hatred, despair, madness, and an unquenchable hunger for power, these Dark Jedi were exiled from their Order more than 3000 years ago, after the Hundred-Year Darkness. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

+

They believed that passion was the true expession of the Force. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Passion = "any powerful or compelling emotion or feeling, as love or hate." (Dictionary.com)

+

But like life itself, the Force has a dark side, exemplified by base emotions like aggression, hatred, or fear. Sith famously adhere to the dark side, using the Force to corrupt, shape, and destroy life. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

So much for the 'mental hindrance' theory for Anakin...  Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 1668617588

Anakin was not experiencing 'mental hindrance' on Mustafar but was lacking in the 'command of the Force' aspect and 'mental discipline' needed to harness his powers to his advantage on a consistent basis (see [1] above).

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Again, you're omitting the mental discipline, which Gillard has explained plays a crucial factor in determining the outcome of a fight. Anakin's mentality along with the environmental advantages Obi Wan had are the two main reasons why Obi Wan won. He didn't win through skill, because on any other neutral battle ground Anakin would have steamrolled through Obi Wan.

Am I? See above.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Yes.

Premature judgement; see below.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Vaylin's time doesn't have duelists that are even as half impressive as Grievous. And Last I checked neither the outlander nor Arcann have equal lightsaber combat skill to RoTS Sidious, whom Anakin is equal to.

And how did you figure all that? Anakin is not equal to Palpatine in Episode 3 (see above)

The Jedi Order (SWTOR) completely shifted its focus from 'politics' to 'warfare', and chose Tython to train Padawans:

Padawans must face the savage native Flesh Raiders, negotiate with the local Twi'lek settlers, and survive Tython's mysterious and dangerous ruins. Though the destruction of the Jedi Temple on Coruscant was a tragedy, training on their new home planet has helped equip the Jedi to face a galaxy at war. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

The 'comforts' of the Jedi Temple on Coruscant were no longer feasible and practical to reproduce for a new generation of the Jedi if they were to cope with the pressures of Galactic Warfare and The True Sith among others - a marked shift from the past.

Much emphasis was placed on 'aptitude in combat' and 'strength in the Force' by extension:

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Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 The-Path-of-a-Jedi-SWTOR

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The Jedi Knights (SWTOR) were adopting heavy battle armor:

"Heavy battle armor frees the Knight to focus on offense."

- and camouflaging techniques for combat missions.

Even an unarmed Jedi Knight was 'a force to be reckoned with' on the battlefield:

"Even Knights who loose their lighsabers remain significant threats on the battlefield thanks to their mastery of the Force."

Even the Jedi Consulars of the time did not neglect their skills with a Lightsaber:

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 The-Jedi-Consulars-SWTOR

This new generation of the Jedi proved able to cope with all manner of challenges coming their way from Lord Vivicar's Plague to powerful Children of the Emperor and more. The Empire threw everything at them from sophisticated War Droids to Tanks and Walkers, to no avail. Some of the most sophisticated and capable Droids and Armored Vehicles are witnessed in the SWTOR times - much of the stuff that you see in PT look inferior in comparison (as if the technologies of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire and Hutt Cartels were lost in time). Palpatine revived the trend of fielding impressive technologies nevertheless (credit where due).

Smugglers; Mandalorians; Bounty Hunters; Hutt Cartells - all were deeply invested in procuring advanced technologies and shaping the course of events in the SWTOR times. The Jedi Order had to be mindful of the shenanigans of these forces as well. Kaleesh were also active in the SWTOR times, contributing to various forces as Force-users and more.

The greatest challenge came from the Sith themselves who were shaped by considerably dangerous methods of training and hardships:

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- and thousands of them could be active at any point in time, contributing to ongoing battles and more. The Dread Masters in particular could devastate entire fleets by themselves.

Do not be fooled by gameplay mechanics - an average Sith Warrior on the battlefield could wield his blade like a PRO producing BLURRING EFFECTS in the process much like General Grievous and Obi-Wan - watch the Hope Cinematic Trailer carefully. It was due to her blinding speed that Satele Shan was able to cut some of them down while advancing towards Darth Malgus. The Havoc Squad was/is the Republic's finest at the time - these troops were equipped with sophisticated body armor, personal supports enabling superhuman reflexes, and heavy firepower to cope with Sith Warriors in the battlefield (the very best of Republic technologies were in the reach of these troops in short). The Battle of Aldeeran was by no means a regular development.

The legendary Hero of Tython represented the very best of the Jedi Order (SWTOR) and lived up to his hype with his exploits by outdueling some of the finest swordsmen of the Sith who stood in his path. These include Lord Praven who was particularly renowned for defeating Jedi Master Usma (one of the finest swordsmen in the history of the Jedi Order) in an 'epic' duel and the Emperor's Wrath who could see Shatterpoints in addition to being one of the finest swordsmen in the history of Sith. The Emperor's Wrath had the opportunity to work with both Revan and Meetra Surik centuries earlier and was convinced that the legendary Hero of Tython was the same man whom he had foreseen in his visions and also "the Jedi's finest." The legendary Hero of Tython defeated some of the most powerful Sith in his time including Darths Angral and Decimus who rivalled Darth Malgus, and was able to cut down dozens of the Imperial Guard while making his way to The Sith Emperor Voice (Valkorion) on Dromund Kaas and counter his Doppleganger effects while confronting him. The Imperial Guard shared a powerful bond with Valkorion and could draw on his strength to defeat the Jedi and Sith who dared to cross their path. The legendary Hero of Tython became the most powerful Jedi in his time and possibly history. - - - - - - [3]

Much had changed across the galaxy in the time of General Grevious however:

"The first great conflict between the Republic and the Sith Empire occurred when two hyperspace explorers stumbled on the Sith worlds, giving the Sith Lord Naga Sadow and his dark side warriors a direct invasion route into the Republic’s central worlds. This war resulted in the first destruction of the Sith Empire—but it was hardly the last. For the next four thousand years, skirmishes between the Republic and Sith grew into wars, with the scales always tilting toward one or the other, and peace never lasting. The galaxy was a place of almost constant strife: Sith armies against Republic armies; Force-using Sith Lords against Jedi Masters and Jedi Knights; and the dreaded nomadic mercenaries called Mandalorians bringing muscle and firepower wherever they stood to gain.

Then, a thousand years before A New Hope and the Battle of Yavin, the Jedi defeated the Sith at the Battle of Ruusan, decimating the so-called Brotherhood of Darkness that was the heart of the Sith Empire—and most of its power. One Sith Lord survived—Darth Bane—and his vision for the Sith differed from that of his predecessors. He instituted a new doctrine: No longer would the followers of the dark side build empires or amass great armies of Force-users. There would be only two Sith at a time: a Master and an apprentice. From that time on, the Sith remained in hiding, biding their time and plotting their revenge, while the rest of the galaxy enjoyed an unprecedented era of peace, so long and strong that the Republic eventually dismantled its standing armies.

But while the Republic seemed strong, its institutions had begun to rot. Greedy corporations sought profits above all else and a corrupt Senate did nothing to stop them, until the corporations reduced many planets to raw materials for factories and entire species became subjects for exploitation. Individual Jedi continued to defend the Republic’s citizens and obey the will of the Force, but the Jedi Order to which they answered grew increasingly out of touch. And a new Sith mastermind, Darth Sidious, at last saw a way to restore Sith domination over the galaxy and its inhabitants, and quietly worked to set in motion the revenge of the Sith …"
- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

General Grevious had his moments of glory on the battlefields by virtue of his cybernetics and skills with a Lightsaber (being able to wield up to FOUR lightsabers at a time) but he failed to outduel (authentic) EXPERT swordsmen of his time such as Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan when he had to engage each [1 on 1]. General Grevious did manage to defeat a number of Jedi in single combat but with support of MagnaGuards in some of the cases. General Grevious's reputation was that of a coward by the end of The Clone Wars because he preferred to FLEE from seemingly intimidating situations. His luck ran out on Utapau however when (now powerful and battle-hardened) Obi-Wan chased him and terminated him for good. I am rather surprised why no Jedi was able to crush this fool with Force powers (Plot Armor much?).

There is no guarantee that General Grievous could rise and shine in the SWTOR times. Some of the biggest and most formidable droids, and even entities, got their @sses handed to them in these times. General Grievous is a goldfish in comparison.  Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 2266747095

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Even if The Outlander was The HoT,  Anakin already scales so far above that.

"Only in your mind, my very young apprentice." - Obi-Wan Kenobi

The assumption that Anakin is in the league of Palpatine and Yoda is based on unsubsantiated hype in large part which I addressed above.

The legendary Hero of Tython scale from numerous (authentic) EXPERT swordsmen who made their mark in history, and defeated some of the most powerful Sith Lords to have ever existed and also a Voice of Valkorion in single combat. His credentials are even better than that of Anakin (see [3] above).

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@DarthFatcow wrote:
And Anakin also has force powers above and beyond Obi Wan and Count Dooku. Anakin was also effectively equal to RoTS Sidious.

Absolutely NOT - see above.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Based on what?

Vaylin was able to handle the most skilled combatants in her time who in turn scale from The Alliance Commander who in turn might be the legendary Hero of Tython who in turn scale from numerous expert swordsmen who made their mark in history.

Official content for reference:

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 KOTET_1600x900









Let us consider the rating system adopted by Nick for fun:

Obi-Wan was rated TIER 7 in Episode 2 and TIER 8 in Episode 3.

A lone Acklay beast warranted Obi-Wan's full attention on Geonosis:

"Straight ahead," Obi-Wan told himself as the acklay came at him, its huge claws snapping in the air. He went left, then right, then rolled forward at the beast, between the mighty arms and snapping claws, coming around and over with his borrowed lightsaber stabbing straight ahead, burning a hole in the creature's chest. The acklay dived forward, trying to crush him under its bulk, and the Jedi leapt straight up as he connected. He came down on its back, landing lightly and stabbing repeatedly, before leaping away once more. "Straight ahead," he told himself again as the enraged beast charged yet again. Obi-Wan noted the blaster bolt coming at him from the side at the very last second, and turned his lightsaber down and under, deflecting the bolt right into the acklay's face. The creature hardly slowed and the Jedi had to throw himself to the ground to dodge a swiping, snapping claw. He rolled out to the side, to avoid a stomping leg, and managed to slash out again, cutting a deep gash. The acklay howled and came on, and more blaster bolts came at the Jedi. His lightsaber worked furiously, brilliantly, turning one bolt after another right into the charging beast, finally slowing it and stunning it. Obi-Wan rushed in and leapt and stabbed, right in the face. He caught his foot on the creature's shoulder and ran right past it. He heard it fall behind him, thrashing in its death throes, but he knew that battle was done and went back to work on the battle droids. - Star Wars: Attack of the Clones: Novelization

General knowledge: Acklay is a large and deadly macropredator capable of taking on and slaughtering multiple living beings all by itself; one of these beasts killed and consumed a bunch of Imperial Shock Troops (6 in total) on Belsavis for example. Acklay is aggressive to the extent of seeking 'groups of prey' to capture (and kill) as many as it could while on the hunt.

Vaylin slaughtered THREE genetically enhanced Acklay beasts while next to each other without breaking a sweat on Nathema - the environment which hampered virtually 'any' Force-user to considerable effect. In this very envrionment, the Jedi and Sith could not even think of partaking in single combat because even a mere walk on its surface felt challenging. The Alliance Commander and Lana Beniko benefitted much from the Valkorion's powerful shielding technique while on Nathema - both were not equipped to cope with this kind of environment on their own. Valkorion also experienced significant degradation on Nathema even though he was responsible for this environment and continued to retain it with his powers.

Vaylin would fit in TIER 9 - all aspects considered.

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Vaylin's 'command of the Force' and 'raw power' is second only to Valkorion who in turn is advanced as the most powerful Force-user ever in two sources.

For reference: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/known-powers-of-valkorion-2020-wip/144951/

Vaylin's mastery of the SENSE spectrum reached a stage and her 'command of the Force' developed to the extent that she was able to respond to Valkorion's manipulation of the space-time continuum. Just this part suggest that she can keep up with responses and speed of virtually 'any' Force-user including Palpatine and Luke Skywalker.

Vaylin's ability to withstand external forces and stresses was phenomenal in any respect. She is the 'only' Force-user to have walked out from the Sanitarium - alive (lasting much longer on Nathema than any Jedi or Sith could). She is the 'only' Force-user to have withstood energies produced by the BRAIN (an experimental superweapon) which were LETHAL to the extent of 'atomizing' other Force-users and one-shot The Alliance Commander (if he is caught in the course of gameplay). She also withstood hyperdrive explosion at point blank range, shielding and saving her mother Senya Tirall from certain death in the process.

Vaylin could tear apart massive structures including Skyscrapers as if they were nothing, destroyed an entire battalion of the Knights of Zakuul including their ships and shuttles with her telekinetic powers in open environment - who were opposing her on Ord Mantell (Darth Marr and Satele Shan - both conceded inferiority of the Jedi and Sith to the Knights of Zakuul in open clashes irrespective of the training regime adopted and talents acquired), and she was capable of 'mass destruction' as per Valkorion.

Anakin is noted for tilting a Conqueror-class dreadnought (Telekinesis), destroying a large droid (Telekinesis), redirecting an escape pod carrying Durge towards the SUN while watching it from a Starship (Telekinesis), collapsing a large dome (Force Scream; raw power), and sending Count Dooku packing with a kick (or Telekinesis) on separate occasions. All of these feats are well within the capacity of a number of Jedi and Sith in SWTOR times to replicate.

Vaylin is on another level in comparison.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
He really isn't difficult to evaluate at all. His showings are pretty straight forward. We already know what a mentally stable Anakin is capable of, like steamrolling Count Dooku, steamrolling through the Jedi temple and single handily holding back an atmosphere storm. And we know what a mentally unstable Anakin isn't capable of, which is not being able to beat Obi Wan, even though he outskills by a large margin. Those two showings don't really contradict each other. And for that matter, that Obi Wan showing is the only real notable showing a mentally unstable Anakin has. We know what both mindsets are capable of. You're choosing to focus the mentally unstable one and assuming he's going to fight Vaylin in an unstable mindset, which he really won't. If we're gonna argue consistency of showings Vaylin couldn't one shot Koth. So yeah I think I'm going to stick to my arguments until I see something that convinces me otherwise.

See above.

The 'mentally unstable' argument for Anakin can also be extended to Vaylin in view of how Valkorion treated her and what she had to endure on Nathema:

Even as a child, Vaylin showed signs of tremendous power. Fearing she would one day challenge him, Valkorion imprisoned his daughter while he sought limits and controls on her power.

Through brutal experiments and mental conditioning, Vaylin was subconsciously trained to respond to a specific phrase: kneel before the Dragon of Zakuul. When spoken by her father, these words prevent Vaylin from unleashing her power and temporarily trap her will in an unbreakable mental prison.

While effective, it is likely the conditioning aggravated Vaylin's violent tendencies and contributed to her mental instability. While trying to cage his daughter's anger, Valkorion transformed her into a monster.
- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Knights of the Eternal Throne: Codex entry: Vaylin's conditioning

Vaylin was denied the opportunity to realize her true potential and develop her powers much like other Force-users by her father because he feared that she would surpass him in time. When Vaylin managed to unchain herself, her powers began to grow exponentially and Valkorion stressed that she must be stopped/killed before she becomes too powerful for virtually 'any' Force-user to handle.

When Vaylin unchained herself:

1. She caught a number of ELITE Knights of Zakuul in a Force Choke, lifted them all from the ground, and one-shotted them all mid-air.
2. She destroyed Sanitarium on Nathema by virtue of causing the BRAIN to explode with a mere thought. The resultant destruction affected Nathema by and large. Not just this but producing effects of this level on Nathema is a mystery in itself. Nathema Zealots, the only faction of Force-users, to successfully adapt to conditions of Nathema, could do no such thing.
3. She demonstrated Battle Meditation in the league of Bastila Shan and Palpatine.
4. She produced a Force Maelstrom with sheer force of will when she was mortally wounded in a fight with The Alliance Commander and his powerful companions. This expression of power began to tear the entire setting apart and incapacitated all Force-users caught in its field but The Alliance Commander who was able to impale her with a Lightsaber before things got worse ("You were an exemplary pawn, one I forged into a vessel of supreme power--worthy of preserving my spirit.").

All of the above in the space of just two episodes; at this pace of growth, she could reach the stage of producing Force Storms, consuming worlds, and manipulating cosmic bodies much sooner than expected. And probably more.

Should I attribute Vaylin's defeat in point 4 to her mental instability? Let us assume mentally stable Vaylin then. Does not bode well for Anakin.
DarthFatcow
DarthFatcow

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 Empty Re: Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet

on November 26th 2020, 2:07 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Key takeaways:

- The rating system adopted by him was a Base Construct to help him write for each character
- Difference between 7 and 9 is enormous
- Difference between 8 and 9 is cheat
- Enlightened pathway to higher TIER (the right way)
- LSD pathway to higher TIER (temporary gains)
- The Seven Forms of Lightsaber Combat became the law (canonized by his peers)

Nick Gillard felt the need to have a BASE CONSTRUCT to help him write for each character to keep up with demands of storytelling while working with George Lucas and he came up with a rating system (a conceptual framework) for the needful. This rating system fell short at providing meaningful answers for 'which character will defeat the other in a potential duel' nevertheless and The Seven Forms of Lightsaber Combat were conceived and advanced for the needful in its place. The bolded theme help explain how Anakin outdueled Count Dooku and how Obi-Wan was able to handle Anakin (Episode 3) - see [2] below.

"But they are enlightened; they have done it the right way - they have learned how to be enlightened. But if you take LSD, you can get to that place for a few hours. You cheated your way there. And that is how I see with Anakin - his training wasn't good enough; he was too old; he got trained too late; he got twisted by the dark side. He took Force LSD. And that is what made him a nine - so that's dangerous. You know it's dangerous because he hasn't done it the right way. But he is still a nine - still something you need to deal with. So that's where the Forms came from." - Nick Gillard
Pal, all due respect, I've already explained to you several times that the the tiering system is not something Gillard made up by himself, lol. It was created by him and Lucas to measure and gauge each Jedi's dexterity, lol. Lucas being the WoG is something commonly known, lol.

Emphasis mine. Anakin having TIER 9 skills with a Lightsaber does not translate into 'superiority' over every character in his time and otherwise
*Sigh*....
And again, emphasis on the word dexterity. You can google the definition of it. You can also see that I've mentioned to you several times that the tiering system was made by Lucas and Gillard. Gillard had explained multiple times that the difference in tiers is very big. You constantly dismissing it because you believe Gillard only made it isn't going to change it.

This battle was a powerful vision experienced by Master Yoda before the events of Episode 3 but it is noteworthy due to belligerents being accurately scaled relative to each other and it foreshadow events to come. Anakin manage to outduel Count Dooku and dismember him much like on the Invisible Hand but when he confronts Palpatine, he finds himself to be completely outmatched and is overwhelmed. At a closer look, Palpatine is able to duel both Anakin and Yoda at the same time and overwhelm the former in the process. This vision is in sync with ground realities established in Episode 3. Thanks in part to this vision, Yoda knew better and convinced Master Obi-Wan Kenobi to confront Anakin instead. Even if Obi-Wan had accompanied Yoda in the latter's duel with Palpatine, he would have been easily dismissed by the powerful Sith Lord. Only Yoda could keep up with Palpatine for a respectable amount of time in a potential battle.
Buddy, this is a vision sequence. You can't use it to gauge anything. If i were to go that route Anakin defeated Mace Windu in an alternate version of RoTS, and that goes perfectly in sync with RoTS given how Anakin mopped the floor with Dooku and the latter's relative parity to Mace.


Anakin had much 'raw power' in him but he was lacking in the 'command of the Force' aspect and 'mental discipline' needed to harness his powers to his advantage on a consistent basis. The 'command of the Force' aspect have following spectrums; (1) Control; (2) Sense; and (3) Alter. Mastery of each discipline is essential to unlock great powers and develop the prerequisite 'mental discipline' to harness them. If a Force-user is lacking in any spectrum, then this shortcoming must be addressed because 'raw power' or inherent potential can carry one so far
Anakin's raw power mopped the floor with someone who had over 75 years of training.


Logically and realistically - Anakin had become one of the most powerful Jedi in his time besides Obi-Wan, Mace Windu and Yoda. He have his fair share of impressive feats to account for.
Anakin was the most powerful Jedi of his time by virtue of having multiple accolades. Let alone the fact that he was flat out stated to be the most powerful Jedi in the opening of the RoTS Novel which Lucas himself edited.

However, Anakin having TIER 9 skills with a Lightsaber does not translate into 'superiority' over every ancient character introduced in the mythos unless his 'command of the Force' outstrip that of each, does it?
I already told you it's difficult to gauge characters that don't exist in G-Canon and that we need showings to place them on it. You're yet to show me a single showing for Vaylin that suggests she can last 3 minutes against Anakin.

So the student could not surpass his Master and/or defeat him? Anakin was forbidden to learn from other sources?
Buddy, you're missing the point. I was mentioning the factors and advantages that led to Obi Wan's win. One of those being that he was the one who trained him. That along with Anakin's mental state all factored in to Anakin's defeat on Mustafar.

"Soresu is well served by Obi-Wan's innate capacity for patience and perception, but the key to mastery is audacity, a talent he has learned from Anakin."

Anakin pointed out to Padme that he have acquired new powers:

"Love won't save you, Padme. Only my new powers can do that."

Those 'new powers' would be courtesy of Palpatine and/or experiences detached from Obi-Wan.

Anakin was a practitioner of Form V whereas Obi-Wan was a practitioner of Form III; the two diverged in this respect since the events of Episode II.

Obi-Wan had better 'mental discipline' and his resultant proficiency in Form III proved meaningful (versus Anakin) - this was his advantage.
And again, you're mentioning the mental discipline for Obi Wan but conveniently omitting it when in regards for Anakin. Anakin never had the mental discipline as Obi Wan, Gillard flat out states that. Gillard also states that Obi Wan doesn't make mistakes, Anakin did and it cost him the fight. Him not being mentally discipline enough coupled with other factors that I've already mentioned are the reasons why he lost.

"Obi-Wan is a great mentor; as wise as Master Yoda, and as powerful as Master Windu." - Anakin Skywalker
Couple of things wrong here :
1. Anakin's own subjective opinion =/= fact
2. Lucas has flat out stated that Mace can contend with RoTS Sidious. Yoda said Obi Wan was not powerful enough to fight Sidious. Unless you're trying to argue Obi Wan is as powerful as Mace therefore he can contend with Sidious, this argument doesn't work. This statement is invalidated by higher canonical sources that are more reliable than Anakin's own subjective view of Obi Wan.

Obi-Wan was powerful enough to cope with stresses of the environment much like Anakin:
This only states that they were able to withstand the heat by cocooning themselves using the force. How does this prove anything? When I said environmental advantages I wasn't referring to temperatures, lol.

- as well as Anakin's powers:
This doesn't 100% mean they're equal in force powers, given that Anakin is canonically the most powerful Jedi of his time.

They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth. - Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith: Novelization
If anything this statement proves my point of Obi Wan having an environmental advantage. The fight wasn't on neutral ground. Obi Wan knew that and used it to his advantage.


As every step becomes more perilous and Vader's attacks more ferocious, Obi-Wan realizes that he still cares for Anakin, and that the only way he can defeat his opponent is to let go of his feelings for his former friend. When Obi-Wan releases this emotional attachment, the battle turns for the Jedi. Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide
A statement which is already invalidated by higher canonical sources as I've shown in previous posts.

The man he faced was everything Obi-Wan had devoted his life to destroying: Murderer. Traitor. Fallen Jedi. Lord of the Sith. And here, and now, despite it all ...
Obi-Wan still loved him. Yoda had said it, flat-out: Allow such attachments to pass out of one's life, a Jedi must, but Obi-Wan had never let himself understand. He had argued for Anakin, made excuses, covered for him again and again and again; all the while this attachment he denied even feeling had blinded him to the dark path his best friend walked. Obi-Wan knew there was, in the end, only one answer for attachment .
.
.
He let it go. - Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith: Novelization

Obi Wan having feelings towards Anakin and having an attachment to him proves your point how? Unless you're gonna use this quote to argue that Obi Wan was holding back and once he stopped he won, and ignoring the litany of reasons that you have done so far, this doesn't work.

- in which Anakin produced a tsunami of lava and pushed it towards Obi-Wan, the latter was able to counter this move with his defensive applications, leap towards Anakin's pod and cut him to size. Straightforward victory in this case.

The alternative battle sequence was not considered because Lucas did not want to advance Obi-Wan as being the "aggressor." This battle sequence nevertheless show that Obi-Wan was more than capable of handling Anakin in a duel.

Alternate scenes are not applicable here. I can also use alternate versions of RoTS that had Anakin beating Mace Windu.

Anakin wasn't lacking in combat-applicable concentration on Mustafar (there were situations in which a single misstep could lead to fall into lava).

Anakin is not unique in miscalculating his options - numerous characters are guilty of bad judgements and lost their lives in the process. Nobody living have infallible judgement all the time.

Pal, when I say Anakin was mentally hindered I don't mean he became a retard who can't swing a lightsaber properly and can't walk without tripping.

Anakin did show bad judgement when Obi-Wan reached the higher ground much later in the course of the duel.
Yes. Due to his mental state. Or are you constantly going to ignore that?

Count Dooku's loss to Anakin on Invisible Hand can also be attributed to bad judgement on his part because Palpatine convinced him that he would intervene should he falter. Star Wars: Labyrinth of Evil provide much needed backstory context to this duel.
This argument is refuted by the RoTS Novel itself when Dooku decides he's no longer going to follow his master plan and would try and kill Anakin :
No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with that. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easily than a new apprentice.

This is not to say that Anakin could not defeat Count Dooku under normal circumstances (cue revelations in Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith: Novelization) but the latter could fight his way out of the Starship and escape - using his Force powers - if he had known that he was expendable and Palpatine would betray him (the bigger picture).
Dooku had always known of the reality of the Sith for betrayal, Sidious already said this :
Sidious bared his teeth, but only briefly. "Darth Tyranus knew what he risked, Lord Vader. If he had been stronger in the dark side, you would be dead, and he would be my right hand."
Source: Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

Like this:
It was blatantly obvious that Sidious orchestrated this whole thing to test Anakin. Dooku was never meant to do anything. He blasted him away when he realized if he held back too much he would be dead. Dooku was literally throwing forks at Anakin.

If Count Dooku was there on Mustafar, he could defeat Obi-Wan in a duel - higher ground or not.
Dooku would beat Obi Wan on Mustafar because he's far more disciplined than Anakin ever was. Dooku would have won on Mustafar because his mental state would not have been similar to Anakin. Both Anakin and Dooku outclass Obi Wan in just about everything. The difference between them is that if Dooku was on Mustafar his mental state would not have been as Anakin's. I'm not really going to constantly repeat myself over Anakin's mental state. You can accept or not accept, it doesn't really change that it was a factor.

Anakin could not break through Obi-Wan's defenses on the other hand and ended up fighting Obi-Wan on his strongest terms (proficiency in Form III of Lightsaber combat); this is why Anakin failed. Count Dooku's proficiency in Form II of Lightsaber combat had become a weakness (versus Anakin's proficiency in Form V of Lightsaber combat) - a weakness not applicable to Obi-Wan and he had a better shot against Anakin therefore
Ah yes. The ever so fun argument that Dooku only lost to Anakin because of a stylistic disadvantage. Which is negated by the sheer amount of statements saying Anakin was far more powerful than Dooku, beyond the fact that the RoTS Novel states that Dooku's lightsaber skills were a joke next to Anakin's.

Gillard's assertions can be instructive but do not override published statements. Obi-Wan transcending his emotional attachment with Anakin in order to defeat him, is a revelation which add context to their duel on Mustafar and advanced by several sources (see above).
Pal, for the millionth time, Gillard's assertion are G-Canon. The whole tiering system is G-Canon. It overrides every other secondary sources. I've already said this to many times.

For years I have noticed some fans refusing to come to terms with Anakin's loss to Obi-Wan in a duel and offering questionable rationalizations in debates. About time somebody question these rationalizations.

"Driven by the dark side to greed and overweening arrogance, Anakin refused to accept that Obi-Wan has the advantage when his Master occupies the high ground on the bank of the lava river." = Anakin looked down upon Obi-Wan and refused to consider the possibility that he could be defeated.

Overweening = "being too proud or confident in yourself." (Cambridge)

Arrogance = "an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions." (Merriam-Webster)

Overweening arrogance = "excessively arrogant or presumptuous" (Google)

Try to reconcile the aforementioned with [2] and you have the perfect answer. Consider the alternative battle sequence in the mix if you still have doubts.

Anakin had joined the Sith and was now driven by emotions in full capacity - this does not suggest 'mental hindrance'.

And for years it's been explained why Anakin lost. Every advantage Obi Wan had is clear as day. Because if we go by what you're arguing that would mean Obi Wan is > Dooku, Mace, Yoda and is = RoTS Sidious. You not willing to see those advantages and purposely omitting them doesn't change the reality.

So much for the 'mental hindrance' theory for Anakin...
It's not a theory. It's been explained by Gillard who's words in the context of the PT are G-Canon. You constantly ignoring that doesn't change it.

Am I? See above.
Yeah, you are. What you're arguing literally contradicts G-Canon.

And how did you figure all that? Anakin is not equal to Palpatine in Episode 3 (see above)
All tier 9's are equal in skill. You constantly ignoring that the tiering system is G-Canon yet again does not change reality.

Padawans must face the savage native Flesh Raiders, negotiate with the local Twi'lek settlers, and survive Tython's mysterious and dangerous ruins. Though the destruction of the Jedi Temple on Coruscant was a tragedy, training on their new home planet has helped equip the Jedi to face a galaxy at war. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
This proves they're as impressive as Grievous how?

This new generation of the Jedi proved able to cope with all manner of challenges coming their way from Lord Vivicar's Plague to powerful Children of the Emperor and more. The Empire threw everything at them from sophisticated War Droids to Tanks and Walkers, to no avail. Some of the most sophisticated and capable Droids and Armored Vehicles are witnessed in the SWTOR times - much of the stuff that you see in PT look inferior in comparison (as if the technologies of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire and Hutt Cartels were lost in time). Palpatine revived the trend of fielding impressive technologies nevertheless (credit where due).
And Grievous would have zero trouble dealing with any of the above.

Do not be fooled by gameplay mechanics - an average Sith Warrior on the battlefield could wield his blade like a PRO producing BLURRING EFFECTS in the process much like General Grievous and Obi-Wan - watch the Hope Cinematic Trailer carefully. It was due to her blinding speed that Satele Shan was able to cut some of them down while advancing towards Darth Malgus. The Havoc Squad was/is the Republic's finest at the time - these troops were equipped with sophisticated body armor, personal supports enabling superhuman reflexes, and heavy firepower to cope with Sith Warriors in the battlefield (the very best of Republic technologies were in the reach of these troops in short). The Battle of Aldeeran was by no means a regular development.
Considering that Grievous has killed hundreds of Jedi and is capable of fighting 5 trained masters at once, with 2 of them being council members, I'm pretty sure Grievous would have plowed through everyone in the Hope cinematic.

The legendary Hero of Tython represented the very best of the Jedi Order (SWTOR) and lived up to his hype with his exploits by outdueling some of the finest swordsmen of the Sith who stood in his path. These include Lord Praven who was particularly renowned for defeating Jedi Master Usma (one of the finest swordsmen in the history of the Jedi Order) in an 'epic' duel and the Emperor's Wrath who could see Shatterpoints in addition to being one of the finest swordsmen in the history of Sith. The Emperor's Wrath had the opportunity to work with both Revan and Meetra Surik centuries earlier and was convinced that the legendary Hero of Tython was the same man whom he had foreseen in his visions and also "the Jedi's finest." The legendary Hero of Tython defeated some of the most powerful Sith in his time including Darths Angral and Decimus who rivalled Darth Malgus, and was able to cut down dozens of the Imperial Guard while making his way to The Sith Emperor Voice (Valkorion) on Dromund Kaas and counter his Doppleganger effects while confronting him. The Imperial Guard shared a powerful bond with Valkorion and could draw on his strength to defeat the Jedi and Sith who dared to cross their path. The legendary Hero of Tython became the most powerful Jedi in his time and possibly history
Grevious could also pressure Mace Windu whilst being environmentally hindered. Grievous could also overload Obi Wan's defenses. Grievous could also pressure Dooku on multiple occasions. Dooku also beat Durge and Ventress simultaneously. Grievous could also shit stomp 5 Jedi Masters simultaneously. Grievous can also out muscle Darth Maul. The HoT being > the best Jedi swordsman and Sith warriors doesn't really prove anything beyond that he's better than them. You'd have to show why these Masters stack up to either Windu, Obi Wan's or Dooku's lightsaber skills. Which they don't.

General Grevious had his moments of glory on the battlefields by virtue of his cybernetics and skills with a Lightsaber (being able to wield up to FOUR lightsabers at a time) but he failed to outduel (authentic) EXPERT swordsmen of his time such as Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan when he had to engage each [1 on 1]
Oh boy. Let's see how many blatantly false things we can get from this :
1. Filoni had an extremely low opinion on Grievous. This is blatant when he had the latter lose to Gungans. And the fact that he flat says he doesn't think Grievous can beat any force users.
2. Ah yes, let's ignore the fact that the novel flat out states he overloaded Obi Wan's defenses and that Obi Wan never killed Grievous in a duel. You should rewatch the movie again.

. General Grevious did manage to defeat a number of Jedi in single combat but with support of MagnaGuards in some of the cases. General Grevious's reputation was that of a coward by the end of The Clone Wars because he preferred to FLEE from seemingly intimidating situations
This is refuted by the fact that Grievous has killed hundreds of Jedi (https://i.servimg.com/u/f50/20/28/46/53/captur10.png).

His luck ran out on Utapau however when (now powerful and battle-hardened) Obi-Wan chased him and terminated him for good.
Except Obi Wan never out dueled Grievous. Neither in the movie or Novel. He killed Grievous using a blaster.

I am rather surprised why no Jedi was able to crush this fool with Force powers (Plot Armor much?).
No. It has to do with the fact that Dooku trained Grievous to overcome the advantages of not having the force.
Don’t let your pursuit of trinkets cloud your reality. Remember what I taught you, general. If you are to succeed in combat against the best of the Jedi, you must have fear, surprise, and intimidation on your side; for if any one element is lacking, it would be best for you to retreat. You must break them, before you engage them. Only then will you ensure victory... and have your trophy
Grievous retreats when he doesn't have any of those three on his side.

There is no guarantee that General Grievous could rise and shine in the SWTOR times. Some of the biggest and most formidable droids, and even entities, got their @sses handed to them in these times.
Grievous plows and steamrolls through Jedi. Do you unironically believe that droids would beat him? I mean sure they would, if Filoni was directing and writing it.

"Only in your mind, my very young apprentice." - Obi-Wan Kenobi

The assumption that Anakin is in the league of Palpatine and Yoda is based on unsubsantiated hype in large part which I addressed above.
It's not an assumption, it was said by Lucas, lmfao :
[quote]From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.[/quote]
Emphasis on as strong as the Emperor

The legendary Hero of Tython scale from numerous (authentic) EXPERT swordsmen who made their mark in history, and defeated some of the most powerful Sith Lords to have ever existed and also a Voice of Valkorion in single combat. His credentials are even better than that of Anakin
Being equally powerful as the most powerful Sith lord and superior to the most powerful Jedi who ever existed, is somehow not better than the accolades and feats the HoT has, lmao.

Vaylin was able to handle the most skilled combatants in her time who in turn scale from The Alliance Commander who in turn might be the legendary Hero of Tython who in turn scale from numerous expert swordsmen who made their mark in history.
Anakin was also amongst the top 3 duelists of his time. Anakin also above people who scale above the HoT. Anakin was also equal to the most powerful Sith lord in history.

Let us consider the rating system adopted by Nick for fun:

Obi-Wan was rated TIER 7 in Episode 2 and TIER 8 in Episode 3.
Yet again you choose to forget that the system was created by Nick and Lucas.

A lone Acklay beast warranted Obi-Wan's full attention on Geonosis:
You know last I check animals didn't wield lightsabers.

Vaylin slaughtered THREE genetically enhanced Acklay beasts while next to each other without breaking a sweat on Nathema - the environment which hampered virtually 'any' Force-user to considerable effect.
Congratulations. You managed to prove that Vaylin is a more powerful force user and is stronger in the force than Obi Wan (albeit using a very funny argument).

Vaylin would fit in TIER 9 - all aspects considered.
All aspects considered, Vaylin would be a high 8. Around RoTS Dooku.

Vaylin's 'command of the Force' and 'raw power' is second only to Valkorion who in turn is advanced as the most powerful Force-user ever in two sources.
Yes. Valkorian was the most powerful force user, ever, in his own time. Him beating RoTS Sidious is already highly debatable.

Vaylin's mastery of the SENSE spectrum reached a stage and her 'command of the Force' developed to the extent that she was able to respond to Valkorion's manipulation of the space-time continuum. Just this part suggest that she can keep up with responses and speed of virtually 'any' Force-user including Palpatine and Luke Skywalker.
This proves she's a powerful force user, which I have never denied or argued against. Responding Valkorion's manipulation of the space-time continuum is literal chump change to either Sidious or Grandmaster Luke Skywalker.

Vaylin's ability to withstand external forces and stresses was phenomenal in any respect. She is the 'only' Force-user to have walked out from the Sanitarium - alive (lasting much longer on Nathema than any Jedi or Sith could). She is the 'only' Force-user to have withstood energies produced by the BRAIN (an experimental superweapon) which were LETHAL to the extent of 'atomizing' other Force-users and one-shot The Alliance Commander (if he is caught in the course of gameplay). She also withstood hyperdrive explosion at point blank range, shielding and saving her mother Senya Tirall from certain death in the process.
Don't really see why Anakin can't replicate any of those feats, lol.

Vaylin could tear apart massive structures including Skyscrapers as if they were nothing, destroyed an entire battalion of the Knights of Zakuul including their ships and shuttles with her telekinetic powers in open environment - who were opposing her on Ord Mantell (Darth Marr and Satele Shan - both conceded inferiority of the Jedi and Sith to the Knights of Zakuul in open clashes irrespective of the training regime adopted and talents acquired),
And Anakin could hold back planetary atmospheric storms single handily.

and she was capable of 'mass destruction' as per Valkorion.
Pretty sure that's we call "Hyperbole".

Anakin is noted for tilting a Conqueror-class dreadnought (Telekinesis), destroying a large droid (Telekinesis), redirecting an escape pod carrying Durge towards the SUN while watching it from a Starship (Telekinesis), collapsing a large dome (Force Scream; raw power), and sending Count Dooku packing with a kick (or Telekinesis) on separate occasions. All of these feats are well within the capacity of a number of Jedi and Sith in SWTOR times to replicate.
A random Jedi or Sith in TOR times is definitely capable of holding back planetary atmospheric storms and TK'ing dreadnought ships and shit stomping someone like Count Dooku, who can casually throw around multiple 215 meter long cruisers. Gotcha.

Vaylin is on another level in comparison.
Why don't you find me a showing of Vaylin holding back a planetary atmospheric storms single handily, then I will 100% agree with you on that statement you just made.

The 'mentally unstable' argument for Anakin can also be extended to Vaylin in view of how Valkorion treated her and what she had to endure on Nathema
It's not an "argument". For that matter it's not even up for debate. Anakin being mentally hindered on Mustafar is supported by the highest canonical source in Star Wars. You constantly ignoring those sources in favor of your own subjective POV on the Mustafar fight doesn't change that.

Vaylin was denied the opportunity to realize her true potential and develop her powers much like other Force-users by her father because he feared that she would surpass him in time. When Vaylin managed to unchain herself, her powers began to grow exponentially and Valkorion stressed that she must be stopped/killed before she becomes too powerful for virtually 'any' Force-user to handle.
Pretty sure being the chosen trumps that.

When Vaylin unchained herself:

1. She caught a number of ELITE Knights of Zakuul in a Force Choke, lifted them all from the ground, and one-shotted them all mid-air.
2. She destroyed Sanitarium on Nathema by virtue of causing the BRAIN to explode with a mere thought. The resultant destruction affected Nathema by and large. Not just this but producing effects of this level on Nathema is a mystery in itself. Nathema Zealots, the only faction of Force-users, to successfully adapt to conditions of Nathema, could do no such thing.
3. She demonstrated Battle Meditation in the league of Bastila Shan and Palpatine.
4. She produced a Force Maelstrom with sheer force of will when she was mortally wounded in a fight with The Alliance Commander and his powerful companions. This expression of power began to tear the entire setting apart and incapacitated all Force-users caught in its field but The Alliance Commander who was able to impale her with a Lightsaber before things got worse ("You were an exemplary pawn, one I forged into a vessel of supreme power--worthy of preserving my spirit.").
And Anakin was equally as powerful as RoTS Sidious, per Lucas, the highest canon in Star Wars. Anakin was also above Yoda, the most powerful Jedi in history up to that point, also backed by G-Canon sources. Anakin also is capable of holding back planetary atmospheric storms.

All of the above in the space of just two episodes; at this pace of growth, she could reach the stage of producing Force Storms, consuming worlds, and manipulating cosmic bodies much sooner than expected. And probably more.
That's based on conjecture and nothing more, really.

Should I attribute Vaylin's defeat in point 4 to her mental instability?
Buddy, your points haven't proved anything beyond that they contradict the highest canonical sources in SW.

Let us assume mentally stable Vaylin then. Does not bode well for Anakin.
I'm willing to do an SS on this, if you're interested.



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