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S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 Empty Re: Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet

November 22nd 2020, 3:56 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:
Valkorion has already lied to the Outlander about countless things

Valkorion wasn't lying to The Outlander but being 'selective' in his revelations all along. Valkorion's agenda was to manipulate The Outlander into doing his bidding; to start a rebellion against The Eternal Empire, rid it from 'oppressive rulers' in Arcann and Vaylin respectively, and take charge of The Eternal Empire as its liberator. Valkorion would subject The Outlander to Transfer Life at this stage. The Outlander was not up to the task however and Valkorion had to make sure that s/he succeed (see below).

@BreakofDawn wrote:
and the Outlander already had Vitiate+ potential.

Correction: Vaylin

The Outlander is the chief protagonist lacking in formal description. S/he is a veteran of the Great Galactic War and proved invaluable to potential allies in numerous situations and theater of operations but not exactly quantifiable in terms of capabilities.

If BioWare promotion content is to be taken at face value then the legendary Hero of Tython became The Outlander and this in turn suggest that he diverged from the path of the Jedi Order at some point. In this case, The Outlander carried with him the potential to become the most powerful Jedi in history (if he had not been already):

"You were under his control, his darkness soaked through to your spirit. When we freed you, you pushed the memories of that training down deep. I can bring those memories back. You're strong enough to handle them. Let the light cure them, make you whole." - Master Orgus Din (Force ghost)

"The Emperor immersed me in the dark side. Darth Revan was the only other Jedi to come back from that. My memories of that time are power. That power is my right and my weapon. I claim it." - The legendary Hero of Tython

The aforementioned interaction occurred before the events of Ziost.

Even such realization of strength wasn't sufficient to stop Valkorion and his family much later in the course of events to follow.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
It wouldn't surprise me if all Valk did was accelerate his growth (to prevent him from burning out from getting too much power too quickly but enough to boost him to the point he needs him to be at to possess him, i.e. at an accelerated growth rate towards his full potential). Regardless, there's a clear distinction between when Valk was powering the Outlander and when the Outlander was acting independently (it's never noted at any point beyond the fight with Arcann that Valk is helping), and that never happens when he fights Vaylin, including at the end of KOTET when he either defeats her singlehandedly or both her and Arcann simultaneously.

That does not make sense and out-of-sync with certain developments. A living being having incredible Force-sensitivity in natural capacity does not suffer from a momentary tap into 'raw power' to much greater extent than the norm; some had 'oneness' moments and did not suffer from them. Examples include Darth Malgus, Anakin Skywalker, Luke Skywalker, Jacen Solo, and Ben Skywalker. A Force-sensitive body has a natural threshold for coping with an episode of release of tremendous amount of energies.

When that threshold is crossed then bodily harm is possible such as in the case of Dorsk 81.

Valkorion could help The Outlander passively and/or actively while residing in the latter's mind; active intervention(s) were not necessary in view of the fact that The Outlander had other allies helping him get through. This much is apparent on different occasions including on the Asylum shadowport*.

*When The Outlander and Arcann met and fought each other for the first time on the Asylum shadowport (Chapter 8 - Knights of the Fallen Empire expansion set), The Outlander was found to be outmatched irrespective of the Class background chosen to define his abilities and his allies had to intervene to save him from certain death by knocking Arcann off the platform into the abyss below (temporary setback to Arcann given his strength and abilities). HK-55 in particular became a casualty in this exchange.

If The Outlander accepted Valkorion's offer to defeat Arcann on the Asylum shadowport then the resultant active intervention proved just as lethal to the host as a lightsaber taken to the gut, and The Outlander passed out from the ordeal (not long after) only for his allies to help him recover.

"Easy. easy. Your body went through quite an ordeal. We weren't sure you'd ever wake up." - Lord Lana Beniko

"Weird thing is, we couldn't find a scratch on you--not even inside." - Koth Vortena

The aforementioned make sense in view of the fact that Valkorion could blow up a WORLD - he could release so much energies in one go. Even on the Asylum shadowport where he directed much of his attack towards Arcann, stray bolts were electrocuting military-grade starships mid-air and caused much collateral damage by extension. Starship movements and shipping activity came to a standstill across the region consequently. Even Palpatine could not produce matching effects on military-grade Starships with Sith Lightning (Episode 9). And Valkorion was lacking in strength in this situation as per Arcann.

Valkorion had to come up with a permanent solution in view of the above: Valkorion transformed The Outlander into a remarkably powerful Force-user on Odessen (Chapter 12 - Knights of the Fallen Empire expansion set):

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- a demonstration of powers akin to Midichlorian Manipulation or much the same but "the archives are incomplete."

"Valkorion strengthened your bond to the Force." - Satele Shan

+

"A bond to the Force as intense as yours brings with it powerful insight." - Satele Shan

+

"You were an exemplary pawn, one I forged into a vessel of supreme power--worthy of preserving my spirit." - Valkorion

The Outlander was finally up to the task - befitting of the hype s/he would receive as The Alliance Commander in conversations.

How can a player overlook such a core part of the story?

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Also worth mentioning that Valkorion himself makes countless references to the Outlander's innate potential and his ability to become far more powerful than he currently is, so the idea that he drastically increased the Outlander's innate potential makes very little sense to me.

See above.

Motivation is important at times; being powerful in the ways of the Force helps on top.

@BreakofDawn wrote:

I've no idea how you can make that assumption given no one else even tried to do so. The context is equally important given that you're implying KFV or another tier 9 couldn't replicate it, or more importantly that it's not a contextual feat that isn't combat applicable.

Did you just forget that the Jedi and Sith were unable to make use of their Force powers on NATHEMA to significant effect due to this planet being a VOID in the Force for so long? The Jedi and Sith could not even live on NATHEMA for long - they risked perishing on this world otherwise. I am not sure how being TIER 9 in lightsaber dueling will help any Jedi or Sith in this context. Not just the Jedi and Sith but virtually all Force-users experienced problems on NATHEMA including Valkorion himself who was responsible for this corruption in the first place.

"My power is limited here, but I will do what I can to shield you and your companions from the worst effects of the void." - Valkorion

That Vaylin was able to blow apart Sanitarium on NATHEMA is a feat which make her stand apart from others in the lore; credit where due. This feat is indicative of the fact that Vaylin would be FAR MORE CAPABLE in normal environments. This was the point all along.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
At best she was providing 1/3 of the power to lift the Gravestone along the Outlander (who even when weakened vastly outstrips her in power) and Senya. It's virtually impossible to quantify exactly how much power she was providing.

True, but I was simply acknowledging her contributions and implied greatness in my statement. Lord Lana is typically under-appreciated in conversations which is not fair in my books. I give credit where due.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
...Okay? Koth was also slammed into a wall by Vaylin and shook it off, and he's a NFU. I fail to see the link between their recovery rate in a game (hell, the Outlander is able to fight briefly after being stabbed through the gut in gameplay despite barely being able to stand) and their Force power. That's willpower/plot driven, not a marker of Force power.

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Some people found themselves in (logically and theoretically) lethal situations and lived to tell the tale afterwards in real life; Koth's moment fit the bill I suppose.

Force-users had to cope with life-threatening situations on a frequent basis like a tank on the other hand. I think I am forgetting some dialogue in this regard but nevermind.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
These aren't combat feats.

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Allies of The Outlander were helping him in combat situations and otherwise (scores of examples come to mind). The Alliance Commander is called one for good reason. Nobody can just solo through all manner of challenges even in works of FICTION.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
This is irrelevant.

No, it is not. Her contributions made difference for The Outlander - he may not have succeeded without her efforts.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
I assume we can quantify who that single Horizon Guard has seen display their power, then? Because frankly, it's an empty accolade. At best he's seen Arcann's power, who's already only ~ chained Vaylin.

The galaxy was in a state of war once again and The Eternal Empire was dealing with a rebellion at the time. The Knights of Zakuul were active on the front-lines and the Horizon Guard serving Vaylin could be veterans, or had seen much before joining the ranks of the ELITE.

There is virtually no documented instance of a Force-user managing to LIFT a bunch of ELITE Knights of Zakuul from the ground while choking them and being able to kill them all in one spell; this is a far more tedious and complex method of dispatching opponents of such caliber then Force-pushing them around and/or through dueling skills. Lord Lana managed to LIFT just one Knight of Zakuul from the ground while choking him and she found this to be a very challenging way to dispatch one, let alone a bunch of them and being ELITES on top. Sheer disparity in strength of Lord Lana and Vaylin is obvious from the two feats of similar kind.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Where is she struggling there? She's deliberately tormenting him and shows no visible sign of effort.

Take another look.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
I'm fully aware of Vaylin's feats. You've probably misread my post as claiming Lana ~ chained Vaylin when I was actually pointing out how even characters massively sub chained Vaylin (such as Lana, who was ragdolled by her) can send Knights flying, dispatch several, and pretty easily break through their passive Force defences. Ragdolling a group of them isn't nearly as impressive as you're making it out to be.

I am not misreading your statements, mate. See my explanation below for some clarity.

There are different methods to dispatch an opponent. Some methods are more tedious than the others and will produce different effects on the same subject.

Lord Lana could dispatch a Knight of Zakuul through her skills with a lightsaber?
Lord Lana could dispatch a Knight of Zakuul through a Force push?
Lord Lana could dispatch a Knight of Zakuul through a Force choke?
Lord Lana could dispatch a Knight of Zakuul through a combination of Force Lift and Force choke?

In each instance, Lord Lana will have to invest and exert on a different level to achieve the desired end (i.e. dispatching the opponent).

Putting the aforementioned into context; your assertion that Vaylin's accomplishment [vs. a group of Elites among the Knights of Zakuul] is not a big deal in view of HOW Lord Lana was able to dispatch lesser opponents, is not sound. That Lord Lana was able to take on and dispatch 4 x Knights of Zakuul in one of her confrontations is a very impressive showing on her part (credit where due) but even this accomplishment pales in comparison to HOW Vaylin dispatched a larger group of (and stronger) Knights of Zakuul with her raw power - focus on the HOW part emphasized in comparative context.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
First, the Republic and Empire were both heavily weakened by years of war. Second, that's not how the Eternal Empire won the war, only individual battles:

O: Which side did Arcann attack first?
L: Both. Ships from the Eternal Fleet struck at shipyards and rallying points for both sides simultaneously. They favoured ambush tactics throughout the war. Zakuulan sensor technology has far greater range than our own and their ships can fly much further on less resources. Only vessels retrofitted with isotope 5 could manage to outrun them. None could truly compete.
O: How long did the Republic and the Empire manage to hold out?
L: Within three months, the bulk of our naval forces were disabled or eliminated, and the Republic was in the same situation. With naval superiority Arcann's forces could begin choking off supply lines, trade, any ship travel at all. The eternal fleet seemed to be everywhere at once. Coruscant and Dromund Kaas were blockaded by the end of the first year.


The Knights might be superior to the average Jedi or Sith, but that's after years of warfare that weakened both sides and the reason they won is because of the Eternal Fleet. No details are given regarding the losses on both sides in ground battles.

That revelation does not refute my statement: "Such contingents of Knights of Zakuul are actually credited for defeating the Jedi and Sith in numbers, and making it possible for The Eternal Empire to subjugate both The Republic and The Empire by extension."

Another perspective of the same conflict:

"The Republic and Empire could not stop Arcann at the height of their powers. They're even more worthless now." - The Outlander (Sith Warrior Class)

They can still help us, even if it's only as cannon and fodder. - Lord Lana Beniko

Fleets do not help win a war, boots on the ground do:



ANALOGY # 1: The Battle of Endor was won on the surface of the moon and from within the Death Star - fleets clashing above and around were secondary.

ANALOGY # 2: The Battle of Lehon was won on the surface of the planet and from within the Star Forge - fleets clashing above and around were secondary.

Technology is and will remain an important consideration but it is the man behind the machine who will make difference in the end.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
You've yet to prove that manhandling Knights of Zakuul - who are around the same level as fodder Jedi/Sith in the game - is something the likes of KFV couldn't replicate.

Refer back to the footage of Satele Shan and Darth Marr addressing The Outlander on Odesson (Chapter 12 - Knights of the Fallen Empire expansion set).

I recall a battle in which several Knights of Zakuul were really close to overwhelming the TRIO of The Outlander, Lord Lana, and Senya Tirall (a Knight of Zakuul herself) in open environment, but Valkorion's active intervention saved the day (Chapter 5 - Knights of the Fallen Empire expansion set).

Vaylin being able to destroy an entire battalion of the Knights of Zakuul in open environment with her powers is BIG ******* DEAL from any perspective. This is not the same as dealing with scores of standard-issue droids (or thugs) - something well within the capacity of a powerful Jedi in the lore. Dozens of well-trained Force-users - each being a match for a well-trained Jedi (or Sith) on individual level - equipped with heavy gear for potential battles in open environment is a FORCE far more capable than any conventional army in Star Wars. Knights of Zakuul were particularly effective in group settings by virtue of their faction rules which encouraged sharing of knowledge and practice of all manner of Force powers (Light and Dark). Senya was in shock when she witnessed destruction of an entire battalion of the Knights of Zakuul in open environment before confronting her daughter for the second time; Senya realized that her daughter could kill her any instant but Vaylin still had feelings for her mother. BioWare did not expand much on the capabilities of the Knights of Zakuul on a more personal level such as in the case of the Jedi and Sith; this lack of depth is bad storytelling in my view.

Wholesale slaughter of well-trained Force-users on that scale through Telekinetic applications is uncommon development in Star Wars. Only the most powerful applications of the Force provided such a window otherwise, and only Tulak Hord, Darth Nihilus, and Valkorion have accomplishments of the sort.

Count Dooku was reluctant to take his chances with 30 odd pirates without his lightsaber in open environment; same guy who could exchange blows with Yoda otherwise. If Vaylin was in the same situation, she would have killed all pirates without breaking a sweat. She could absorb blaster-shots as well.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
He's communicating to them mentally, so no, it's telepathy.

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 1220391476

Telepathy does not have any impact on the space-time continuum and materialize in consort with normal flow of events.

Following is Telepathy (Force Persuasion):



Following is Telepathy (Mind Control):

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Following is Telepathy (Mind Control):

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Following is manipulation of the space-time continuum:

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+

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 6757156-9107493480-64629

The environment appears to freeze in time and the esoteric wave of dark side energy produced by the host begins to engage those in close proximity while they are still frozen in time, and the course of events completely shift in a blink of an eye consequently. Other living beings besides the host are unable to react to this development.

Other living beings besides the host should be able to react to raw Telepathic developments otherwise:

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 7408835-5631270001-Star-

For general knowledge: There are some Force powers which necessitate proficiency in a number of other Force powers in order to be employed successfully.

Proficiency in Telepathy could be one of the prerequisites for unlocking the ability to manipulate the space-time continuum.

Space-Time Manipulation in another medium for reference:



@BreakofDawn wrote:
I feel like you're referencing Fold Space, which is something completely different. He's not reality warping, he's perception altering. He's basically doing this, if you'll forgive the use of a separate franchise to give a comparison:

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 Superm10

See above.

Fold Space also involves manipulation of the space-time continuum but to different effect such as Teleportation.

Darth Plagueis offered some perspective:

"The aperion governs the cohesion of the matter, from the atoms of a pebble to all planets and gravity in the universe. This includes the dimension of time. Through aperion, space-time may be manipulated on a grand scale - that is if a user channels sufficient energy through his aggregate midi-chlorians while maintaining focus and accuracy.

I believe an individual could step instantly from one place to another by folding space, regardless of the intervening distance. Similarly one could be able to fold time - not to temporarily displace a physical object, but to shift one's consciousness backward and forward along time's flow. Such a thing would permit the study of all knowledge through history, and even the secrets recorded in the long lost library of Silversisi."
- Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

Darth Jadus demonstrating Fold Space:

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Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 4481300-2393409239-dY5d3

Valkorion demonstrated Fold Space akin to a Force Storm (Wormhole) on Yavin 4:

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 7412972-1991330868-SWTOR

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 7412974-8675787917-SWTOR

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 7412979-2030964685-SWTOR

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"We suffered many casualties upon the Emperor's return..." - Darth Marr

Perhaps it was.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Or he wanted to make sure everyone was dead and did it systematically as he was ordered to. KFV scales above characters who could collapse buildings approaching that scale and he himself has TK feats from when he was Anakin that compare. Collapsing the Temple would not only have been ineffective, but pointless as the Jedi would have still escaped.

Anakin Skywalker by virtue of his sheer Midichlorian count and resultant potential, was capable of spectacular demonstrations of raw power with sufficient concentration but not on a consistent basis because he had "mental issues." Master Obi-Wan Kenobi was deemed sufficient by Master Yoda to stop Darth Vader in his tracks but not Palpatine.

Contrasting mindsets for reference:

As every step becomes more perilous and Vader's attacks more ferocious, Obi-Wan realizes that he still cares for Anakin, and that the only way he can defeat his opponent is to let go of his feelings for his former friend. When Obi-Wan releases this emotional attachment, the battle turns for the Jedi. - Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide

vs.

"Driven by the dark side to greed and overweening arrogance, Anakin refused to accept that Obi-Wan has the advantage when his Master occupies the high ground on the bank of the lava river." - Star Wars: Complete Locations

Darth Vader (Episode 3) could not even Force push Obi-Wan around.

Following are not canon but Food for Thought nevertheless:

https://www.wired.com/2007/05/anakin-skywalker-borderline-personality-bipolar-or-narcissist/

https://www.livescience.com/10679-psychology-darth-vader-revealed.html

Vaylin would prove to be a much greater foe to Darth Vader than Obi-Wan because she was much stronger than the latter and could concentrate very well. She was able to respond to every move of Arcann who had much experience fighting the Jedi and Sith among others and a remarkably skilled duelist on top, and when he paused, Vaylin threw a heavy speeder on him and jumped off the platform. Given her exceptional Force sense, she would be able to take advantage of even a momentary lapse in judgement of Darth Vader and defeat him on the spot. She have sufficient raw power to dominate Darth Vader with her Force powers anyways.

---

Collapsing the Jedi Temple would be ineffective? Like seriously? How many exit points this building had? Vaylin could cause the power grid of the Jedi Temple to explode and it would have done the trick; those inside the building could be caught unaware and...

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Ok, and? The quote doesn't mean anything.

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 1220391476

It is meaningful revelation.


Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on November 23rd 2020, 1:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level Two
Level Two

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 Empty Re: Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet

November 22nd 2020, 4:04 pm
@DarthFatcow wrote:Vaylin isn't beating a tier 9 who's above Yoda and equal to RoTS Sidious in power, let alone Luke, lol.
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 Empty Re: Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet

November 22nd 2020, 5:48 pm
^^^

Lightsaber dueling TIERS conceived by Nick Gillard is not self-sufficient consideration:

"How does one quantify fighting prowess, and does such a quantity have any practical value? When Stunt Coordinator and Sword Master Nick Gillard sets down to script a lightsaber duel, he needs to have some guage as to how competent the combatants are. On equal-footing, such ranking could easily determine the victor. Star Wars duels, however, rarely occur on equal footing or level ground." - Homing Beacon #126

Numerous variables are likely to decide a victor in a duel for the combatants involved.

Try to reconcile Obi-Wan Kenobi's victory over Darth Vader in a duel on Mustafar with Nick Gillard's TIERS for instance; does not fit in.

I am not sure why some fans cling to a fallible/questionable metric to evaluate dueling outcomes.
DarthFatcow
DarthFatcow

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 Empty Re: Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet

November 23rd 2020, 10:38 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Lightsaber dueling TIERS conceived by Nick Gillard is not self-sufficient consideration
The tiers were conceived by Lucas and Gillard, by default making the highest form of canon.

Numerous variables are likely to decide a victor in a duel for the combatants involved.
Yes. And Gillard explained that, in regards to the mindset and mentality of a combatant.

Try to reconcile Obi-Wan Kenobi's victory over Darth Vader in a duel on Mustafar with Nick Gillard's TIERS for instance; does not fit in.
Context and Circumstances :
1. Obi Wan knew how Anakin fought and his style, already giving him an advantage
2. Obi Wan had an environmental advantage
3. Anakin's mental state wasn't in the right place, considering that a focused Anakin mopped the floor with Dooku, who's superior to every version of Obi Wan.
This doesn't prove that the tiers don't fit in, at all.

I am not sure why some fans cling to a fallible/questionable metric to evaluate dueling outcomes.
It's not questionable or fallible. Those tiers were created by Lucas and Gillard :
In order to design and choreograph this most important of scenes, Gillard and Lucas decided upon each Jedi's dexterity
They weren't solely conceived by Gillard himself.

I am not sure why some fans cling to a fallible/questionable metric to evaluate dueling outcomes.
Even if we throw out the tiers made by Lucas and Gillard, Vaylin doesn't really have anything to suggest that she's even remotely on Anakin's level in terms of lightsaber combat, and he can outlast her with RoTS Sidious level force reserves.
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 Empty Re: Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet

November 23rd 2020, 2:07 pm
@DarthFatcow wrote:
The tiers were conceived by Lucas and Gillard, by default making the highest form of canon.

The rating system [in question] helped them keep tabs on advances in dueling skills of characters introduced in the movies. For example, Anakin Skywalker was rated TIER 6 when he fought Count Dooku on Geonosis (Episode 2), and was rated TIER 9 when he fought Count Dooku on Invisible Hand (Episode 3).

That is the point of it.

How can WE (the fans) reconcile said rating system with content outside the movies? How can WE figure out which Legends character fit in which TIER of Lightsaber dueling and moved from which TIER to which TIER as they developed further?

Meaningful hint: WE cannot.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Yes. And Gillard explained that, in regards to the mindset and mentality of a combatant.

Duh? The rating system [in question] cannot be taken at face value for deciding hypothetical versus contests because it does not factor-in numerous variables which can be instructive otherwise.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Context and Circumstances :
1. Obi Wan knew how Anakin fought and his style, already giving him an advantage
2. Obi Wan had an environmental advantage
3. Anakin's mental state wasn't in the right place, considering that a focused Anakin mopped the floor with Dooku, who's superior to every version of Obi Wan.
This doesn't prove that the tiers don't fit in, at all.

1. Both understood each other well enough - neither had any advantage in this context.
2. Not throughout; Darth Vader was not even able to Force push Obi-Wan Kenobi around (shame).
3. Darth Vader wasn't lacking in combat-applicable concentration since he was fighting in a deadly environment and was able to navigate through it and carry himself very well while exchanging blows with his opponent.

Distinguishing factor is highlighted below:

As every step becomes more perilous and Vader's attacks more ferocious, Obi-Wan realizes that he still cares for Anakin, and that the only way he can defeat his opponent is to let go of his feelings for his former friend. When Obi-Wan releases this emotional attachment, the battle turns for the Jedi. - Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide

vs.

Driven by the dark side to greed and overweening arrogance, Anakin refused to accept that Obi-Wan has the advantage when his Master occupies the high ground on the bank of the lava river. - Star Wars: Complete Locations

Darth Vader being rated TIER 9 in his skills with a Lightsaber did not help him achieve breakthrough against Obi-Wan, or did it?

@DarthFatcow wrote:
It's not questionable or fallible. Those tiers were created by Lucas and Gillard :
In order to design and choreograph this most important of scenes, Gillard and Lucas decided upon each Jedi's dexterity
They weren't solely conceived by Gillard himself.

See above.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Even if we throw out the tiers made by Lucas and Gillard, Vaylin doesn't really have anything to suggest that she's even remotely on Anakin's level in terms of lightsaber combat, and he can outlast her with RoTS Sidious level force reserves.  

And you know that for sure?

Vaylin is in the TIER of the most skilled duelists in her time since she stalemated Arcann in a duel who in turn was able to handle 'any' character class considered for The Outlander (this is by design). The Outlander could be the legendary Hero of Tython (cue BioWare promotion materials) and just this consideration provides much needed depth to help evaluate both Vaylin and Arcann in the aspect of skills with a Lightsaber.

Vaylin also have prodigious Force powers - above and beyond the likes of Obi-Wan and Count Dooku.

Vaylin is very well equipped to challenge Anakin Skywalker from virtually any perspective and as a whole.

Anakin was capable of spectacular feats with sufficient concentration but not on a consistent basis due to his mindset - he is difficult to evaluate in the versus context. He defeated Count Dooku but lost to Obi-Wan in the span of same Episode. Going by these showings, he might press Vaylin (and falter).
xolthol
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November 23rd 2020, 4:18 pm
Even though I have Vaylin pretty high in term of power (cf my huge commitment to her during the Top 15 Tournament) I'm not sure that she can defeat Pre-Suited Vader.
DarthFatcow
DarthFatcow

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November 23rd 2020, 4:39 pm
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)


The rating system [in question] helped them keep tabs on advances in dueling skills of characters introduced in the movies. For example, Anakin Skywalker was rated TIER 6 when he fought Count Dooku on Geonosis (Episode 2), and was rated TIER 9 when he fought Count Dooku on Invisible Hand (Episode 3).

That is the point of it.

How can WE (the fans) reconcile said rating system with content outside the movies? How can WE figure out which Legends character fit in which TIER of Lightsaber dueling and moved from which TIER to which TIER as they developed further?

Meaningful hint: WE cannot.

You're right. In a sense that it it would be difficult to rank characters based on said system that exist outside of G-Canon. You can evaluate said character's showings and accolades and compare them to tier 8's and 9's and see how they stack up. It'


Duh? The rating system [in question] cannot be taken at face value for deciding hypothetical versus contests because it does not factor-in numerous variables which can be instructive otherwise.
How can it not factor other variables when the person who made co created has flat out said the mindset and mentality matter?

1. Both understood each other well enough - neither had any advantage in this context.
Obi Wan had the advantage of being the one who trained Anakin. Let's not forget that shall we.

2. Not throughout; Darth Vader was not even able to Force push Obi-Wan Kenobi around (shame).
The only reason Obi Wan managed to survive and drag on the fight was due to the environment.

Darth Vader wasn't lacking in combat-applicable concentration since he was fighting in a deadly environment and was able to navigate through it and carry himself very well while exchanging blows with his opponent.
Yes. He clearly wasn't lacking in combat applicable concentration, that's why he decided to attack an opponent who had the advantage of higher ground. Does that really sound like someone who's at a 100% mental state?

As every step becomes more perilous and Vader's attacks more ferocious, Obi-Wan realizes that he still cares for Anakin, and that the only way he can defeat his opponent is to let go of his feelings for his former friend. When Obi-Wan releases this emotional attachment, the battle turns for the Jedi
This quote is already overridden by higher canonical sources, such as the tiering system which you don't consider valid. Gillard has basically said that the mental aspect was a key reason to Obi Wan's win on Mustafar.

Driven by the dark side to greed and overweening arrogance, Anakin refused to accept that Obi-Wan has the advantage when his Master occupies the high ground on the bank of the lava river.
Yes. This also alludes to the fact that Anakin's mental state was obviously hindered.

Darth Vader being rated TIER 9 in his skills with a Lightsaber did not help him achieve breakthrough against Obi-Wan, or did it?
Again, you're omitting the mental discipline, which Gillard has explained plays a crucial factor in determining the outcome of a fight. Anakin's mentality along with the environmental advantages Obi Wan had are the two main reasons why Obi Wan won. He didn't win through skill, because on any other neutral battle ground Anakin would have steamrolled through Obi Wan.

And you know that for sure?
Yes.

Vaylin is in the TIER of the most skilled duelists in her time since she stalemated Arcann in a duel who in turn was able to handle 'any' character class considered for The Outlander (this is by design).
Vaylin's time doesn't have duelists that are even as half impressive as Grievous. And Last I checked neither the outlander nor Arcann have equal lightsaber combat skill to RoTS Sidious, whom Anakin is equal to.

The Outlander could be the legendary Hero of Tython (cue BioWare promotion materials) and just this consideration provides much needed depth to help evaluate both Vaylin and Arcann in the aspect of skills with a Lightsaber.
Even if The Outlander was The HoT, Anakin already scales so far above that.

Vaylin also have prodigious Force powers - above and beyond the likes of Obi-Wan and Count Dooku.
And Anakin also has force powers above and beyond Obi Wan and Count Dooku. Anakin was also effectively equal to RoTS Sidious.

Vaylin is very well equipped to challenge Anakin Skywalker from virtually any perspective and as a whole.
Based on what?

Anakin was capable of spectacular feats with sufficient concentration but not on a consistent basis due to his mindset - he is difficult to evaluate in the versus context. He defeated Count Dooku but lost to Obi-Wan in the span of same Episode.
He really isn't difficult to evaluate at all. His showings are pretty straight forward. We already know what a mentally stable Anakin is capable of, like steamrolling Count Dooku, steamrolling through the Jedi temple and single handily holding back an atmosphere storm. And we know what a mentally unstable Anakin isn't capable of, which is not being able to beat Obi Wan, even though he outskills by a large margin. Those two showings don't really contradict each other. And for that matter, that Obi Wan showing is the only real notable showing a mentally unstable Anakin has. We know what both mindsets are capable of. You're choosing to focus the mentally unstable one and assuming he's going to fight Vaylin in an unstable mindset, which he really won't. If we're gonna argue consistency of showings Vaylin couldn't one shot Koth. So yeah I think I'm going to stick to my arguments until I see something that convinces me otherwise.
Rei
Rei

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November 23rd 2020, 5:28 pm
@DarthFatcow

Glad to see a lot of out of context statements being corrected.
The Fallen Knight
The Fallen Knight

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November 24th 2020, 10:50 am
Stops at 7


Last edited by The Fallen Knight on December 11th 2020, 6:02 am; edited 1 time in total
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

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November 25th 2020, 5:40 pm
@DarthFatcow wrote:
You're right. In a sense that it it would be difficult to rank characters based on said system that exist outside of G-Canon. You can evaluate said character's showings and accolades and compare them to tier 8's and 9's and see how they stack up. It'

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Star Wars as a theme present idiosyncratic realities to audience for entertainment and consumption, and there is a need to connect the right dots in [our] assessment to reach sensible conclusions.



Key takeaways:

- The rating system adopted by him was a Base Construct to help him write for each character
- Difference between 7 and 9 is enormous
- Difference between 8 and 9 is cheat
- Enlightened pathway to higher TIER (the right way)
- LSD pathway to higher TIER (temporary gains)
- The Seven Forms of Lightsaber Combat became the law (canonized by his peers)

Nick Gillard felt the need to have a BASE CONSTRUCT to help him write for each character to keep up with demands of storytelling while working with George Lucas and he came up with a rating system (a conceptual framework) for the needful. This rating system fell short at providing meaningful answers for 'which character will defeat the other in a potential duel' nevertheless and The Seven Forms of Lightsaber Combat were conceived and advanced for the needful in its place. The bolded theme help explain how Anakin outdueled Count Dooku and how Obi-Wan was able to handle Anakin (Episode 3) - see [2] below.

"But they are enlightened; they have done it the right way - they have learned how to be enlightened. But if you take LSD, you can get to that place for a few hours. You cheated your way there. And that is how I see with Anakin - his training wasn't good enough; he was too old; he got trained too late; he got twisted by the dark side. He took Force LSD. And that is what made him a nine - so that's dangerous. You know it's dangerous because he hasn't done it the right way. But he is still a nine - still something you need to deal with. So that's where the Forms came from." - Nick Gillard

Emphasis mine. Anakin having TIER 9 skills with a Lightsaber does not translate into 'superiority' over every character in his time and otherwise. For reference:



This battle was a powerful vision experienced by Master Yoda before the events of Episode 3 but it is noteworthy due to belligerents being accurately scaled relative to each other and it foreshadow events to come. Anakin manage to outduel Count Dooku and dismember him much like on the Invisible Hand but when he confronts Palpatine, he finds himself to be completely outmatched and is overwhelmed. At a closer look, Palpatine is able to duel both Anakin and Yoda at the same time and overwhelm the former in the process. This vision is in sync with ground realities established in Episode 3. Thanks in part to this vision, Yoda knew better and convinced Master Obi-Wan Kenobi to confront Anakin instead. Even if Obi-Wan had accompanied Yoda in the latter's duel with Palpatine, he would have been easily dismissed by the powerful Sith Lord. Only Yoda could keep up with Palpatine for a respectable amount of time in a potential battle.

Anakin had much 'raw power' in him but he was lacking in the 'command of the Force' aspect and 'mental discipline' needed to harness his powers to his advantage on a consistent basis. The 'command of the Force' aspect have following spectrums; (1) Control; (2) Sense; and (3) Alter. Mastery of each discipline is essential to unlock great powers and develop the prerequisite 'mental discipline' to harness them. If a Force-user is lacking in any spectrum, then this shortcoming must be addressed because 'raw power' or inherent potential can carry one so far. - - - - - - [1]

I am aware of some statements hyping Anakin as the most powerful Jedi in his time (and/or beyond) but the battle sequence in Yoda's vision is the latest and most accurate depiction of how the movie characters stack up to each other at the conclusion of The Clone Wars which in turn is representative of the fiction view of George Lucas solidified over the course of years.

Anakin certainly had the potential to become the most powerful Force-user ever and fulfill the prophesy of The Chosen One - a theme which was revisited in the Mortis chapter but both would not come to pass. The Son foresaw what Anakin would become instead (i.e. Cybernetic Darth Vader of the Original Trilogy) and The Father erased this knowledge from the mind of Anakin before the latter departed from the Mortis realm, and the Mortis chapter was itself concluded with demise of The Ones. Anakin managed to fulfill the prophesy of The Chosen One by destroying Palpatine in the Battle of Endor, or so it is believed because Palpatine returned after a break and other Skywalkers had to deal with him.

Logically and realistically - Anakin had become one of the most powerful Jedi in his time besides Obi-Wan, Mace Windu and Yoda. He have his fair share of impressive feats to account for. However, Anakin having TIER 9 skills with a Lightsaber does not translate into 'superiority' over every ancient character introduced in the mythos unless his 'command of the Force' outstrip that of each, does it?

@DarthFatcow wrote:
How can it not factor other variables when the person who made co created has flat out said the mindset and mentality matter?

See above.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Obi Wan had the advantage of being the one who trained Anakin. Let's not forget that shall we.

So the student could not surpass his Master and/or defeat him? Anakin was forbidden to learn from other sources? Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 1220391476

Food for thought:

1. Freedon Nadd surpassed Naga Sadow and killed him.
2. Exar Kun surpassed Master Vodo-Siosk Baas and defeated him in single combat.
3. Revan surpassed his Jedi instructors.
4. Meetra Surik defeated Darth Traya in single combat.
5. The legendary Hero of Tython surpassed his Jedi instructors.
6. Darth Bane surpassed his Brotherhood instructors.
7. Darth Zannah defeated Darth Bane in single combat.

A Jedi can seek training from a number of Jedi Masters and not necessarily the one who is officially assigned to him for the needful; a Jedi can learn things from exposure to different sources. As Anakin grew older and wiser, he could acquire talents distinct from that of Ob-Wan and even teach him a few tricks:

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"Soresu is well served by Obi-Wan's innate capacity for patience and perception, but the key to mastery is audacity, a talent he has learned from Anakin."

Anakin pointed out to Padme that he have acquired new powers:

"Love won't save you, Padme. Only my new powers can do that."

Those 'new powers' would be courtesy of Palpatine and/or experiences detached from Obi-Wan.

Anakin was a practitioner of Form V whereas Obi-Wan was a practitioner of Form III; the two diverged in this respect since the events of Episode II.

Obi-Wan had better 'mental discipline' and his resultant proficiency in Form III proved meaningful (versus Anakin) - this was his advantage.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
The only reason Obi Wan managed to survive and drag on the fight was due to the environment.

"Obi-Wan is a great mentor; as wise as Master Yoda, and as powerful as Master Windu." - Anakin Skywalker

Really?

Obi-Wan was powerful enough to cope with stresses of the environment much like Anakin:

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- as well as Anakin's powers:

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They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth. - Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith: Novelization

- and prevailed due to following factor:

As every step becomes more perilous and Vader's attacks more ferocious, Obi-Wan realizes that he still cares for Anakin, and that the only way he can defeat his opponent is to let go of his feelings for his former friend. When Obi-Wan releases this emotional attachment, the battle turns for the Jedi. - Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide

The aforementioned statement is ported to the Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded Edition sourcebook and reinforced by the following source:

The man he faced was everything Obi-Wan had devoted his life to destroying: Murderer. Traitor. Fallen Jedi. Lord of the Sith. And here, and now, despite it all ...
Obi-Wan still loved him. Yoda had said it, flat-out: Allow such attachments to pass out of one's life, a Jedi must, but Obi-Wan had never let himself understand. He had argued for Anakin, made excuses, covered for him again and again and again; all the while this attachment he denied even feeling had blinded him to the dark path his best friend walked. Obi-Wan knew there was, in the end, only one answer for attachment .
.
.
He let it go.
- Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith: Novelization

Even if you consider the alternative battle sequence:



- in which Anakin produced a tsunami of lava and pushed it towards Obi-Wan, the latter was able to counter this move with his defensive applications, leap towards Anakin's pod and cut him to size. Straightforward victory in this case.

The alternative battle sequence was not considered because Lucas did not want to advance Obi-Wan as being the "aggressor." This battle sequence nevertheless show that Obi-Wan was more than capable of handling Anakin in a duel.

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@DarthFatcow wrote:
Yes. He clearly wasn't lacking in combat applicable concentration, that's why he decided to attack an opponent who had the advantage of higher ground. Does that really sound like someone who's at a 100% mental state?

Anakin wasn't lacking in combat-applicable concentration on Mustafar (there were situations in which a single misstep could lead to fall into lava).

Anakin did show bad judgement when Obi-Wan reached the higher ground much later in the course of the duel.

Anakin is not unique in miscalculating his options - numerous characters are guilty of bad judgements and lost their lives in the process. Nobody living have infallible judgement all the time.

Count Dooku's loss to Anakin on Invisible Hand can also be attributed to bad judgement on his part because Palpatine convinced him that he would intervene should he falter. Star Wars: Labyrinth of Evil provide much needed backstory context to this duel. This is not to say that Anakin could not defeat Count Dooku under normal circumstances (cue revelations in Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith: Novelization) but the latter could fight his way out of the Starship and escape - using his Force powers - if he had known that he was expendable and Palpatine would betray him (the bigger picture).

Like this:

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If Count Dooku was there on Mustafar, he could defeat Obi-Wan in a duel - higher ground or not. Count Dooku was simply better in the application of Telekinesis and this skill served him well (versus Obi-Wan). Anakin could not break through Obi-Wan's defenses on the other hand and ended up fighting Obi-Wan on his strongest terms (proficiency in Form III of Lightsaber combat); this is why Anakin failed. Count Dooku's proficiency in Form II of Lightsaber combat had become a weakness (versus Anakin's proficiency in Form V of Lightsaber combat) - a weakness not applicable to Obi-Wan and he had a better shot against Anakin therefore. - - - - - - [2]

A > B > C = Misleading perspective while evaluating Anakin, Count Dooku and Obi-Wan respectively.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
This quote is already overridden by higher canonical sources, such as the tiering system which you don't consider valid. Gillard has basically said that the mental aspect was a key reason to Obi Wan's win on Mustafar.

Gillard's assertions can be instructive but do not override published statements. Obi-Wan transcending his emotional attachment with Anakin in order to defeat him, is a revelation which add context to their duel on Mustafar and advanced by several sources (see above).

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Yes. This also alludes to the fact that Anakin's mental state was obviously hindered.

For years I have noticed some fans refusing to come to terms with Anakin's loss to Obi-Wan in a duel and offering questionable rationalizations in debates. About time somebody question these rationalizations.

"Driven by the dark side to greed and overweening arrogance, Anakin refused to accept that Obi-Wan has the advantage when his Master occupies the high ground on the bank of the lava river." = Anakin looked down upon Obi-Wan and refused to consider the possibility that he could be defeated.

Overweening = "being too proud or confident in yourself." (Cambridge)

Arrogance = "an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions." (Merriam-Webster)

Overweening arrogance = "excessively arrogant or presumptuous" (Google)

Try to reconcile the aforementioned with [2] and you have the perfect answer. Consider the alternative battle sequence in the mix if you still have doubts.  

Anakin had joined the Sith and was now driven by emotions in full capacity - this does not suggest 'mental hindrance'.

Sith are driven by EMOTIONS in their exploits:

But true Sith, as they are understood today, are actually descended from fallen Jedi. Driven by hatred, despair, madness, and an unquenchable hunger for power, these Dark Jedi were exiled from their Order more than 3000 years ago, after the Hundred-Year Darkness. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

+

They believed that passion was the true expession of the Force. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Passion = "any powerful or compelling emotion or feeling, as love or hate." (Dictionary.com)

+

But like life itself, the Force has a dark side, exemplified by base emotions like aggression, hatred, or fear. Sith famously adhere to the dark side, using the Force to corrupt, shape, and destroy life. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

So much for the 'mental hindrance' theory for Anakin...  Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 1668617588

Anakin was not experiencing 'mental hindrance' on Mustafar but was lacking in the 'command of the Force' aspect and 'mental discipline' needed to harness his powers to his advantage on a consistent basis (see [1] above).

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Again, you're omitting the mental discipline, which Gillard has explained plays a crucial factor in determining the outcome of a fight. Anakin's mentality along with the environmental advantages Obi Wan had are the two main reasons why Obi Wan won. He didn't win through skill, because on any other neutral battle ground Anakin would have steamrolled through Obi Wan.

Am I? See above.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Yes.

Premature judgement; see below.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Vaylin's time doesn't have duelists that are even as half impressive as Grievous. And Last I checked neither the outlander nor Arcann have equal lightsaber combat skill to RoTS Sidious, whom Anakin is equal to.

And how did you figure all that? Anakin is not equal to Palpatine in Episode 3 (see above)

The Jedi Order (SWTOR) completely shifted its focus from 'politics' to 'warfare', and chose Tython to train Padawans:

Padawans must face the savage native Flesh Raiders, negotiate with the local Twi'lek settlers, and survive Tython's mysterious and dangerous ruins. Though the destruction of the Jedi Temple on Coruscant was a tragedy, training on their new home planet has helped equip the Jedi to face a galaxy at war. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

The 'comforts' of the Jedi Temple on Coruscant were no longer feasible and practical to reproduce for a new generation of the Jedi if they were to cope with the pressures of Galactic Warfare and The True Sith among others - a marked shift from the past.

Much emphasis was placed on 'aptitude in combat' and 'strength in the Force' by extension:

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The Jedi Knights (SWTOR) were adopting heavy battle armor:

"Heavy battle armor frees the Knight to focus on offense."

- and camouflaging techniques for combat missions.

Even an unarmed Jedi Knight was 'a force to be reckoned with' on the battlefield:

"Even Knights who loose their lighsabers remain significant threats on the battlefield thanks to their mastery of the Force."

Even the Jedi Consulars of the time did not neglect their skills with a Lightsaber:

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This new generation of the Jedi proved able to cope with all manner of challenges coming their way from Lord Vivicar's Plague to powerful Children of the Emperor and more. The Empire threw everything at them from sophisticated War Droids to Tanks and Walkers, to no avail. Some of the most sophisticated and capable Droids and Armored Vehicles are witnessed in the SWTOR times - much of the stuff that you see in PT look inferior in comparison (as if the technologies of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire and Hutt Cartels were lost in time). Palpatine revived the trend of fielding impressive technologies nevertheless (credit where due).

Smugglers; Mandalorians; Bounty Hunters; Hutt Cartells - all were deeply invested in procuring advanced technologies and shaping the course of events in the SWTOR times. The Jedi Order had to be mindful of the shenanigans of these forces as well. Kaleesh were also active in the SWTOR times, contributing to various forces as Force-users and more.

The greatest challenge came from the Sith themselves who were shaped by considerably dangerous methods of training and hardships:

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- and thousands of them could be active at any point in time, contributing to ongoing battles and more. The Dread Masters in particular could devastate entire fleets by themselves.

Do not be fooled by gameplay mechanics - an average Sith Warrior on the battlefield could wield his blade like a PRO producing BLURRING EFFECTS in the process much like General Grievous and Obi-Wan - watch the Hope Cinematic Trailer carefully. It was due to her blinding speed that Satele Shan was able to cut some of them down while advancing towards Darth Malgus. The Havoc Squad was/is the Republic's finest at the time - these troops were equipped with sophisticated body armor, personal supports enabling superhuman reflexes, and heavy firepower to cope with Sith Warriors in the battlefield (the very best of Republic technologies were in the reach of these troops in short). The Battle of Aldeeran was by no means a regular development.

The legendary Hero of Tython represented the very best of the Jedi Order (SWTOR) and lived up to his hype with his exploits by outdueling some of the finest swordsmen of the Sith who stood in his path. These include Lord Praven who was particularly renowned for defeating Jedi Master Usma (one of the finest swordsmen in the history of the Jedi Order) in an 'epic' duel and the Emperor's Wrath who could see Shatterpoints in addition to being one of the finest swordsmen in the history of Sith. The Emperor's Wrath had the opportunity to work with both Revan and Meetra Surik centuries earlier and was convinced that the legendary Hero of Tython was the same man whom he had foreseen in his visions and also "the Jedi's finest." The legendary Hero of Tython defeated some of the most powerful Sith in his time including Darths Angral and Decimus who rivalled Darth Malgus, and was able to cut down dozens of the Imperial Guard while making his way to The Sith Emperor Voice (Valkorion) on Dromund Kaas and counter his Doppleganger effects while confronting him. The Imperial Guard shared a powerful bond with Valkorion and could draw on his strength to defeat the Jedi and Sith who dared to cross their path. The legendary Hero of Tython became the most powerful Jedi in his time and possibly history. - - - - - - [3]

Much had changed across the galaxy in the time of General Grevious however:

"The first great conflict between the Republic and the Sith Empire occurred when two hyperspace explorers stumbled on the Sith worlds, giving the Sith Lord Naga Sadow and his dark side warriors a direct invasion route into the Republic’s central worlds. This war resulted in the first destruction of the Sith Empire—but it was hardly the last. For the next four thousand years, skirmishes between the Republic and Sith grew into wars, with the scales always tilting toward one or the other, and peace never lasting. The galaxy was a place of almost constant strife: Sith armies against Republic armies; Force-using Sith Lords against Jedi Masters and Jedi Knights; and the dreaded nomadic mercenaries called Mandalorians bringing muscle and firepower wherever they stood to gain.

Then, a thousand years before A New Hope and the Battle of Yavin, the Jedi defeated the Sith at the Battle of Ruusan, decimating the so-called Brotherhood of Darkness that was the heart of the Sith Empire—and most of its power. One Sith Lord survived—Darth Bane—and his vision for the Sith differed from that of his predecessors. He instituted a new doctrine: No longer would the followers of the dark side build empires or amass great armies of Force-users. There would be only two Sith at a time: a Master and an apprentice. From that time on, the Sith remained in hiding, biding their time and plotting their revenge, while the rest of the galaxy enjoyed an unprecedented era of peace, so long and strong that the Republic eventually dismantled its standing armies.

But while the Republic seemed strong, its institutions had begun to rot. Greedy corporations sought profits above all else and a corrupt Senate did nothing to stop them, until the corporations reduced many planets to raw materials for factories and entire species became subjects for exploitation. Individual Jedi continued to defend the Republic’s citizens and obey the will of the Force, but the Jedi Order to which they answered grew increasingly out of touch. And a new Sith mastermind, Darth Sidious, at last saw a way to restore Sith domination over the galaxy and its inhabitants, and quietly worked to set in motion the revenge of the Sith …"
- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

General Grevious had his moments of glory on the battlefields by virtue of his cybernetics and skills with a Lightsaber (being able to wield up to FOUR lightsabers at a time) but he failed to outduel (authentic) EXPERT swordsmen of his time such as Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan when he had to engage each [1 on 1]. General Grevious did manage to defeat a number of Jedi in single combat but with support of MagnaGuards in some of the cases. General Grevious's reputation was that of a coward by the end of The Clone Wars because he preferred to FLEE from seemingly intimidating situations. His luck ran out on Utapau however when (now powerful and battle-hardened) Obi-Wan chased him and terminated him for good. I am rather surprised why no Jedi was able to crush this fool with Force powers (Plot Armor much?).

There is no guarantee that General Grievous could rise and shine in the SWTOR times. Some of the biggest and most formidable droids, and even entities, got their @sses handed to them in these times. General Grievous is a goldfish in comparison.  Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 2266747095

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Even if The Outlander was The HoT,  Anakin already scales so far above that.

"Only in your mind, my very young apprentice." - Obi-Wan Kenobi

The assumption that Anakin is in the league of Palpatine and Yoda is based on unsubsantiated hype in large part which I addressed above.

The legendary Hero of Tython scale from numerous (authentic) EXPERT swordsmen who made their mark in history, and defeated some of the most powerful Sith Lords to have ever existed and also a Voice of Valkorion in single combat. His credentials are even better than that of Anakin (see [3] above).

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@DarthFatcow wrote:
And Anakin also has force powers above and beyond Obi Wan and Count Dooku. Anakin was also effectively equal to RoTS Sidious.

Absolutely NOT - see above.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Based on what?

Vaylin was able to handle the most skilled combatants in her time who in turn scale from The Alliance Commander who in turn might be the legendary Hero of Tython who in turn scale from numerous expert swordsmen who made their mark in history.

Official content for reference:

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Let us consider the rating system adopted by Nick for fun:

Obi-Wan was rated TIER 7 in Episode 2 and TIER 8 in Episode 3.

A lone Acklay beast warranted Obi-Wan's full attention on Geonosis:

"Straight ahead," Obi-Wan told himself as the acklay came at him, its huge claws snapping in the air. He went left, then right, then rolled forward at the beast, between the mighty arms and snapping claws, coming around and over with his borrowed lightsaber stabbing straight ahead, burning a hole in the creature's chest. The acklay dived forward, trying to crush him under its bulk, and the Jedi leapt straight up as he connected. He came down on its back, landing lightly and stabbing repeatedly, before leaping away once more. "Straight ahead," he told himself again as the enraged beast charged yet again. Obi-Wan noted the blaster bolt coming at him from the side at the very last second, and turned his lightsaber down and under, deflecting the bolt right into the acklay's face. The creature hardly slowed and the Jedi had to throw himself to the ground to dodge a swiping, snapping claw. He rolled out to the side, to avoid a stomping leg, and managed to slash out again, cutting a deep gash. The acklay howled and came on, and more blaster bolts came at the Jedi. His lightsaber worked furiously, brilliantly, turning one bolt after another right into the charging beast, finally slowing it and stunning it. Obi-Wan rushed in and leapt and stabbed, right in the face. He caught his foot on the creature's shoulder and ran right past it. He heard it fall behind him, thrashing in its death throes, but he knew that battle was done and went back to work on the battle droids. - Star Wars: Attack of the Clones: Novelization

General knowledge: Acklay is a large and deadly macropredator capable of taking on and slaughtering multiple living beings all by itself; one of these beasts killed and consumed a bunch of Imperial Shock Troops (6 in total) on Belsavis for example. Acklay is aggressive to the extent of seeking 'groups of prey' to capture (and kill) as many as it could while on the hunt.

Vaylin slaughtered THREE genetically enhanced Acklay beasts while next to each other without breaking a sweat on Nathema - the environment which hampered virtually 'any' Force-user to considerable effect. In this very envrionment, the Jedi and Sith could not even think of partaking in single combat because even a mere walk on its surface felt challenging. The Alliance Commander and Lana Beniko benefitted much from the Valkorion's powerful shielding technique while on Nathema - both were not equipped to cope with this kind of environment on their own. Valkorion also experienced significant degradation on Nathema even though he was responsible for this environment and continued to retain it with his powers.

Vaylin would fit in TIER 9 - all aspects considered.

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Vaylin's 'command of the Force' and 'raw power' is second only to Valkorion who in turn is advanced as the most powerful Force-user ever in two sources.

For reference: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/known-powers-of-valkorion-2020-wip/144951/

Vaylin's mastery of the SENSE spectrum reached a stage and her 'command of the Force' developed to the extent that she was able to respond to Valkorion's manipulation of the space-time continuum. Just this part suggest that she can keep up with responses and speed of virtually 'any' Force-user including Palpatine and Luke Skywalker.

Vaylin's ability to withstand external forces and stresses was phenomenal in any respect. She is the 'only' Force-user to have walked out from the Sanitarium - alive (lasting much longer on Nathema than any Jedi or Sith could). She is the 'only' Force-user to have withstood energies produced by the BRAIN (an experimental superweapon) which were LETHAL to the extent of 'atomizing' other Force-users and one-shot The Alliance Commander (if he is caught in the course of gameplay). She also withstood hyperdrive explosion at point blank range, shielding and saving her mother Senya Tirall from certain death in the process.

Vaylin could tear apart massive structures including Skyscrapers as if they were nothing, destroyed an entire battalion of the Knights of Zakuul including their ships and shuttles with her telekinetic powers in open environment - who were opposing her on Ord Mantell (Darth Marr and Satele Shan - both conceded inferiority of the Jedi and Sith to the Knights of Zakuul in open clashes irrespective of the training regime adopted and talents acquired), and she was capable of 'mass destruction' as per Valkorion.

Anakin is noted for tilting a Conqueror-class dreadnought (Telekinesis), destroying a large droid (Telekinesis), redirecting an escape pod carrying Durge towards the SUN while watching it from a Starship (Telekinesis), collapsing a large dome (Force Scream; raw power), and sending Count Dooku packing with a kick (or Telekinesis) on separate occasions. All of these feats are well within the capacity of a number of Jedi and Sith in SWTOR times to replicate.

Vaylin is on another level in comparison.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
He really isn't difficult to evaluate at all. His showings are pretty straight forward. We already know what a mentally stable Anakin is capable of, like steamrolling Count Dooku, steamrolling through the Jedi temple and single handily holding back an atmosphere storm. And we know what a mentally unstable Anakin isn't capable of, which is not being able to beat Obi Wan, even though he outskills by a large margin. Those two showings don't really contradict each other. And for that matter, that Obi Wan showing is the only real notable showing a mentally unstable Anakin has. We know what both mindsets are capable of. You're choosing to focus the mentally unstable one and assuming he's going to fight Vaylin in an unstable mindset, which he really won't. If we're gonna argue consistency of showings Vaylin couldn't one shot Koth. So yeah I think I'm going to stick to my arguments until I see something that convinces me otherwise.

See above.

The 'mentally unstable' argument for Anakin can also be extended to Vaylin in view of how Valkorion treated her and what she had to endure on Nathema:

Even as a child, Vaylin showed signs of tremendous power. Fearing she would one day challenge him, Valkorion imprisoned his daughter while he sought limits and controls on her power.

Through brutal experiments and mental conditioning, Vaylin was subconsciously trained to respond to a specific phrase: kneel before the Dragon of Zakuul. When spoken by her father, these words prevent Vaylin from unleashing her power and temporarily trap her will in an unbreakable mental prison.

While effective, it is likely the conditioning aggravated Vaylin's violent tendencies and contributed to her mental instability. While trying to cage his daughter's anger, Valkorion transformed her into a monster.
- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Knights of the Eternal Throne: Codex entry: Vaylin's conditioning

Vaylin was denied the opportunity to realize her true potential and develop her powers much like other Force-users by her father because he feared that she would surpass him in time. When Vaylin managed to unchain herself, her powers began to grow exponentially and Valkorion stressed that she must be stopped/killed before she becomes too powerful for virtually 'any' Force-user to handle.

When Vaylin unchained herself:

1. She caught a number of ELITE Knights of Zakuul in a Force Choke, lifted them all from the ground, and one-shotted them all mid-air.
2. She destroyed Sanitarium on Nathema by virtue of causing the BRAIN to explode with a mere thought. The resultant destruction affected Nathema by and large. Not just this but producing effects of this level on Nathema is a mystery in itself. Nathema Zealots, the only faction of Force-users, to successfully adapt to conditions of Nathema, could do no such thing.
3. She demonstrated Battle Meditation in the league of Bastila Shan and Palpatine.
4. She produced a Force Maelstrom with sheer force of will when she was mortally wounded in a fight with The Alliance Commander and his powerful companions. This expression of power began to tear the entire setting apart and incapacitated all Force-users caught in its field but The Alliance Commander who was able to impale her with a Lightsaber before things got worse ("You were an exemplary pawn, one I forged into a vessel of supreme power--worthy of preserving my spirit.").

All of the above in the space of just two episodes; at this pace of growth, she could reach the stage of producing Force Storms, consuming worlds, and manipulating cosmic bodies much sooner than expected. And probably more.

Should I attribute Vaylin's defeat in point 4 to her mental instability? Let us assume mentally stable Vaylin then. Does not bode well for Anakin.
DarthFatcow
DarthFatcow

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 Empty Re: Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet

November 26th 2020, 2:07 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Key takeaways:

- The rating system adopted by him was a Base Construct to help him write for each character
- Difference between 7 and 9 is enormous
- Difference between 8 and 9 is cheat
- Enlightened pathway to higher TIER (the right way)
- LSD pathway to higher TIER (temporary gains)
- The Seven Forms of Lightsaber Combat became the law (canonized by his peers)

Nick Gillard felt the need to have a BASE CONSTRUCT to help him write for each character to keep up with demands of storytelling while working with George Lucas and he came up with a rating system (a conceptual framework) for the needful. This rating system fell short at providing meaningful answers for 'which character will defeat the other in a potential duel' nevertheless and The Seven Forms of Lightsaber Combat were conceived and advanced for the needful in its place. The bolded theme help explain how Anakin outdueled Count Dooku and how Obi-Wan was able to handle Anakin (Episode 3) - see [2] below.

"But they are enlightened; they have done it the right way - they have learned how to be enlightened. But if you take LSD, you can get to that place for a few hours. You cheated your way there. And that is how I see with Anakin - his training wasn't good enough; he was too old; he got trained too late; he got twisted by the dark side. He took Force LSD. And that is what made him a nine - so that's dangerous. You know it's dangerous because he hasn't done it the right way. But he is still a nine - still something you need to deal with. So that's where the Forms came from." - Nick Gillard
Pal, all due respect, I've already explained to you several times that the the tiering system is not something Gillard made up by himself, lol. It was created by him and Lucas to measure and gauge each Jedi's dexterity, lol. Lucas being the WoG is something commonly known, lol.

Emphasis mine. Anakin having TIER 9 skills with a Lightsaber does not translate into 'superiority' over every character in his time and otherwise
*Sigh*....
And again, emphasis on the word dexterity. You can google the definition of it. You can also see that I've mentioned to you several times that the tiering system was made by Lucas and Gillard. Gillard had explained multiple times that the difference in tiers is very big. You constantly dismissing it because you believe Gillard only made it isn't going to change it.

This battle was a powerful vision experienced by Master Yoda before the events of Episode 3 but it is noteworthy due to belligerents being accurately scaled relative to each other and it foreshadow events to come. Anakin manage to outduel Count Dooku and dismember him much like on the Invisible Hand but when he confronts Palpatine, he finds himself to be completely outmatched and is overwhelmed. At a closer look, Palpatine is able to duel both Anakin and Yoda at the same time and overwhelm the former in the process. This vision is in sync with ground realities established in Episode 3. Thanks in part to this vision, Yoda knew better and convinced Master Obi-Wan Kenobi to confront Anakin instead. Even if Obi-Wan had accompanied Yoda in the latter's duel with Palpatine, he would have been easily dismissed by the powerful Sith Lord. Only Yoda could keep up with Palpatine for a respectable amount of time in a potential battle.
Buddy, this is a vision sequence. You can't use it to gauge anything. If i were to go that route Anakin defeated Mace Windu in an alternate version of RoTS, and that goes perfectly in sync with RoTS given how Anakin mopped the floor with Dooku and the latter's relative parity to Mace.


Anakin had much 'raw power' in him but he was lacking in the 'command of the Force' aspect and 'mental discipline' needed to harness his powers to his advantage on a consistent basis. The 'command of the Force' aspect have following spectrums; (1) Control; (2) Sense; and (3) Alter. Mastery of each discipline is essential to unlock great powers and develop the prerequisite 'mental discipline' to harness them. If a Force-user is lacking in any spectrum, then this shortcoming must be addressed because 'raw power' or inherent potential can carry one so far
Anakin's raw power mopped the floor with someone who had over 75 years of training.


Logically and realistically - Anakin had become one of the most powerful Jedi in his time besides Obi-Wan, Mace Windu and Yoda. He have his fair share of impressive feats to account for.
Anakin was the most powerful Jedi of his time by virtue of having multiple accolades. Let alone the fact that he was flat out stated to be the most powerful Jedi in the opening of the RoTS Novel which Lucas himself edited.

However, Anakin having TIER 9 skills with a Lightsaber does not translate into 'superiority' over every ancient character introduced in the mythos unless his 'command of the Force' outstrip that of each, does it?
I already told you it's difficult to gauge characters that don't exist in G-Canon and that we need showings to place them on it. You're yet to show me a single showing for Vaylin that suggests she can last 3 minutes against Anakin.

So the student could not surpass his Master and/or defeat him? Anakin was forbidden to learn from other sources?
Buddy, you're missing the point. I was mentioning the factors and advantages that led to Obi Wan's win. One of those being that he was the one who trained him. That along with Anakin's mental state all factored in to Anakin's defeat on Mustafar.

"Soresu is well served by Obi-Wan's innate capacity for patience and perception, but the key to mastery is audacity, a talent he has learned from Anakin."

Anakin pointed out to Padme that he have acquired new powers:

"Love won't save you, Padme. Only my new powers can do that."

Those 'new powers' would be courtesy of Palpatine and/or experiences detached from Obi-Wan.

Anakin was a practitioner of Form V whereas Obi-Wan was a practitioner of Form III; the two diverged in this respect since the events of Episode II.

Obi-Wan had better 'mental discipline' and his resultant proficiency in Form III proved meaningful (versus Anakin) - this was his advantage.
And again, you're mentioning the mental discipline for Obi Wan but conveniently omitting it when in regards for Anakin. Anakin never had the mental discipline as Obi Wan, Gillard flat out states that. Gillard also states that Obi Wan doesn't make mistakes, Anakin did and it cost him the fight. Him not being mentally discipline enough coupled with other factors that I've already mentioned are the reasons why he lost.

"Obi-Wan is a great mentor; as wise as Master Yoda, and as powerful as Master Windu." - Anakin Skywalker
Couple of things wrong here :
1. Anakin's own subjective opinion =/= fact
2. Lucas has flat out stated that Mace can contend with RoTS Sidious. Yoda said Obi Wan was not powerful enough to fight Sidious. Unless you're trying to argue Obi Wan is as powerful as Mace therefore he can contend with Sidious, this argument doesn't work. This statement is invalidated by higher canonical sources that are more reliable than Anakin's own subjective view of Obi Wan.

Obi-Wan was powerful enough to cope with stresses of the environment much like Anakin:
This only states that they were able to withstand the heat by cocooning themselves using the force. How does this prove anything? When I said environmental advantages I wasn't referring to temperatures, lol.

- as well as Anakin's powers:
This doesn't 100% mean they're equal in force powers, given that Anakin is canonically the most powerful Jedi of his time.

They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth. - Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith: Novelization
If anything this statement proves my point of Obi Wan having an environmental advantage. The fight wasn't on neutral ground. Obi Wan knew that and used it to his advantage.


As every step becomes more perilous and Vader's attacks more ferocious, Obi-Wan realizes that he still cares for Anakin, and that the only way he can defeat his opponent is to let go of his feelings for his former friend. When Obi-Wan releases this emotional attachment, the battle turns for the Jedi. Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide
A statement which is already invalidated by higher canonical sources as I've shown in previous posts.

The man he faced was everything Obi-Wan had devoted his life to destroying: Murderer. Traitor. Fallen Jedi. Lord of the Sith. And here, and now, despite it all ...
Obi-Wan still loved him. Yoda had said it, flat-out: Allow such attachments to pass out of one's life, a Jedi must, but Obi-Wan had never let himself understand. He had argued for Anakin, made excuses, covered for him again and again and again; all the while this attachment he denied even feeling had blinded him to the dark path his best friend walked. Obi-Wan knew there was, in the end, only one answer for attachment .
.
.
He let it go. - Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith: Novelization

Obi Wan having feelings towards Anakin and having an attachment to him proves your point how? Unless you're gonna use this quote to argue that Obi Wan was holding back and once he stopped he won, and ignoring the litany of reasons that you have done so far, this doesn't work.

- in which Anakin produced a tsunami of lava and pushed it towards Obi-Wan, the latter was able to counter this move with his defensive applications, leap towards Anakin's pod and cut him to size. Straightforward victory in this case.

The alternative battle sequence was not considered because Lucas did not want to advance Obi-Wan as being the "aggressor." This battle sequence nevertheless show that Obi-Wan was more than capable of handling Anakin in a duel.

Alternate scenes are not applicable here. I can also use alternate versions of RoTS that had Anakin beating Mace Windu.

Anakin wasn't lacking in combat-applicable concentration on Mustafar (there were situations in which a single misstep could lead to fall into lava).

Anakin is not unique in miscalculating his options - numerous characters are guilty of bad judgements and lost their lives in the process. Nobody living have infallible judgement all the time.

Pal, when I say Anakin was mentally hindered I don't mean he became a retard who can't swing a lightsaber properly and can't walk without tripping.

Anakin did show bad judgement when Obi-Wan reached the higher ground much later in the course of the duel.
Yes. Due to his mental state. Or are you constantly going to ignore that?

Count Dooku's loss to Anakin on Invisible Hand can also be attributed to bad judgement on his part because Palpatine convinced him that he would intervene should he falter. Star Wars: Labyrinth of Evil provide much needed backstory context to this duel.
This argument is refuted by the RoTS Novel itself when Dooku decides he's no longer going to follow his master plan and would try and kill Anakin :
No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with that. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easily than a new apprentice.

This is not to say that Anakin could not defeat Count Dooku under normal circumstances (cue revelations in Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith: Novelization) but the latter could fight his way out of the Starship and escape - using his Force powers - if he had known that he was expendable and Palpatine would betray him (the bigger picture).
Dooku had always known of the reality of the Sith for betrayal, Sidious already said this :
Sidious bared his teeth, but only briefly. "Darth Tyranus knew what he risked, Lord Vader. If he had been stronger in the dark side, you would be dead, and he would be my right hand."
Source: Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

Like this:
It was blatantly obvious that Sidious orchestrated this whole thing to test Anakin. Dooku was never meant to do anything. He blasted him away when he realized if he held back too much he would be dead. Dooku was literally throwing forks at Anakin.

If Count Dooku was there on Mustafar, he could defeat Obi-Wan in a duel - higher ground or not.
Dooku would beat Obi Wan on Mustafar because he's far more disciplined than Anakin ever was. Dooku would have won on Mustafar because his mental state would not have been similar to Anakin. Both Anakin and Dooku outclass Obi Wan in just about everything. The difference between them is that if Dooku was on Mustafar his mental state would not have been as Anakin's. I'm not really going to constantly repeat myself over Anakin's mental state. You can accept or not accept, it doesn't really change that it was a factor.

Anakin could not break through Obi-Wan's defenses on the other hand and ended up fighting Obi-Wan on his strongest terms (proficiency in Form III of Lightsaber combat); this is why Anakin failed. Count Dooku's proficiency in Form II of Lightsaber combat had become a weakness (versus Anakin's proficiency in Form V of Lightsaber combat) - a weakness not applicable to Obi-Wan and he had a better shot against Anakin therefore
Ah yes. The ever so fun argument that Dooku only lost to Anakin because of a stylistic disadvantage. Which is negated by the sheer amount of statements saying Anakin was far more powerful than Dooku, beyond the fact that the RoTS Novel states that Dooku's lightsaber skills were a joke next to Anakin's.

Gillard's assertions can be instructive but do not override published statements. Obi-Wan transcending his emotional attachment with Anakin in order to defeat him, is a revelation which add context to their duel on Mustafar and advanced by several sources (see above).
Pal, for the millionth time, Gillard's assertion are G-Canon. The whole tiering system is G-Canon. It overrides every other secondary sources. I've already said this to many times.

For years I have noticed some fans refusing to come to terms with Anakin's loss to Obi-Wan in a duel and offering questionable rationalizations in debates. About time somebody question these rationalizations.

"Driven by the dark side to greed and overweening arrogance, Anakin refused to accept that Obi-Wan has the advantage when his Master occupies the high ground on the bank of the lava river." = Anakin looked down upon Obi-Wan and refused to consider the possibility that he could be defeated.

Overweening = "being too proud or confident in yourself." (Cambridge)

Arrogance = "an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions." (Merriam-Webster)

Overweening arrogance = "excessively arrogant or presumptuous" (Google)

Try to reconcile the aforementioned with [2] and you have the perfect answer. Consider the alternative battle sequence in the mix if you still have doubts.

Anakin had joined the Sith and was now driven by emotions in full capacity - this does not suggest 'mental hindrance'.

And for years it's been explained why Anakin lost. Every advantage Obi Wan had is clear as day. Because if we go by what you're arguing that would mean Obi Wan is > Dooku, Mace, Yoda and is = RoTS Sidious. You not willing to see those advantages and purposely omitting them doesn't change the reality.

So much for the 'mental hindrance' theory for Anakin...
It's not a theory. It's been explained by Gillard who's words in the context of the PT are G-Canon. You constantly ignoring that doesn't change it.

Am I? See above.
Yeah, you are. What you're arguing literally contradicts G-Canon.

And how did you figure all that? Anakin is not equal to Palpatine in Episode 3 (see above)
All tier 9's are equal in skill. You constantly ignoring that the tiering system is G-Canon yet again does not change reality.

Padawans must face the savage native Flesh Raiders, negotiate with the local Twi'lek settlers, and survive Tython's mysterious and dangerous ruins. Though the destruction of the Jedi Temple on Coruscant was a tragedy, training on their new home planet has helped equip the Jedi to face a galaxy at war. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
This proves they're as impressive as Grievous how?

This new generation of the Jedi proved able to cope with all manner of challenges coming their way from Lord Vivicar's Plague to powerful Children of the Emperor and more. The Empire threw everything at them from sophisticated War Droids to Tanks and Walkers, to no avail. Some of the most sophisticated and capable Droids and Armored Vehicles are witnessed in the SWTOR times - much of the stuff that you see in PT look inferior in comparison (as if the technologies of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire and Hutt Cartels were lost in time). Palpatine revived the trend of fielding impressive technologies nevertheless (credit where due).
And Grievous would have zero trouble dealing with any of the above.

Do not be fooled by gameplay mechanics - an average Sith Warrior on the battlefield could wield his blade like a PRO producing BLURRING EFFECTS in the process much like General Grievous and Obi-Wan - watch the Hope Cinematic Trailer carefully. It was due to her blinding speed that Satele Shan was able to cut some of them down while advancing towards Darth Malgus. The Havoc Squad was/is the Republic's finest at the time - these troops were equipped with sophisticated body armor, personal supports enabling superhuman reflexes, and heavy firepower to cope with Sith Warriors in the battlefield (the very best of Republic technologies were in the reach of these troops in short). The Battle of Aldeeran was by no means a regular development.
Considering that Grievous has killed hundreds of Jedi and is capable of fighting 5 trained masters at once, with 2 of them being council members, I'm pretty sure Grievous would have plowed through everyone in the Hope cinematic.

The legendary Hero of Tython represented the very best of the Jedi Order (SWTOR) and lived up to his hype with his exploits by outdueling some of the finest swordsmen of the Sith who stood in his path. These include Lord Praven who was particularly renowned for defeating Jedi Master Usma (one of the finest swordsmen in the history of the Jedi Order) in an 'epic' duel and the Emperor's Wrath who could see Shatterpoints in addition to being one of the finest swordsmen in the history of Sith. The Emperor's Wrath had the opportunity to work with both Revan and Meetra Surik centuries earlier and was convinced that the legendary Hero of Tython was the same man whom he had foreseen in his visions and also "the Jedi's finest." The legendary Hero of Tython defeated some of the most powerful Sith in his time including Darths Angral and Decimus who rivalled Darth Malgus, and was able to cut down dozens of the Imperial Guard while making his way to The Sith Emperor Voice (Valkorion) on Dromund Kaas and counter his Doppleganger effects while confronting him. The Imperial Guard shared a powerful bond with Valkorion and could draw on his strength to defeat the Jedi and Sith who dared to cross their path. The legendary Hero of Tython became the most powerful Jedi in his time and possibly history
Grevious could also pressure Mace Windu whilst being environmentally hindered. Grievous could also overload Obi Wan's defenses. Grievous could also pressure Dooku on multiple occasions. Dooku also beat Durge and Ventress simultaneously. Grievous could also shit stomp 5 Jedi Masters simultaneously. Grievous can also out muscle Darth Maul. The HoT being > the best Jedi swordsman and Sith warriors doesn't really prove anything beyond that he's better than them. You'd have to show why these Masters stack up to either Windu, Obi Wan's or Dooku's lightsaber skills. Which they don't.

General Grevious had his moments of glory on the battlefields by virtue of his cybernetics and skills with a Lightsaber (being able to wield up to FOUR lightsabers at a time) but he failed to outduel (authentic) EXPERT swordsmen of his time such as Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan when he had to engage each [1 on 1]
Oh boy. Let's see how many blatantly false things we can get from this :
1. Filoni had an extremely low opinion on Grievous. This is blatant when he had the latter lose to Gungans. And the fact that he flat says he doesn't think Grievous can beat any force users.
2. Ah yes, let's ignore the fact that the novel flat out states he overloaded Obi Wan's defenses and that Obi Wan never killed Grievous in a duel. You should rewatch the movie again.

. General Grevious did manage to defeat a number of Jedi in single combat but with support of MagnaGuards in some of the cases. General Grevious's reputation was that of a coward by the end of The Clone Wars because he preferred to FLEE from seemingly intimidating situations
This is refuted by the fact that Grievous has killed hundreds of Jedi (https://i.servimg.com/u/f50/20/28/46/53/captur10.png).

His luck ran out on Utapau however when (now powerful and battle-hardened) Obi-Wan chased him and terminated him for good.
Except Obi Wan never out dueled Grievous. Neither in the movie or Novel. He killed Grievous using a blaster.

I am rather surprised why no Jedi was able to crush this fool with Force powers (Plot Armor much?).
No. It has to do with the fact that Dooku trained Grievous to overcome the advantages of not having the force.
Don’t let your pursuit of trinkets cloud your reality. Remember what I taught you, general. If you are to succeed in combat against the best of the Jedi, you must have fear, surprise, and intimidation on your side; for if any one element is lacking, it would be best for you to retreat. You must break them, before you engage them. Only then will you ensure victory... and have your trophy
Grievous retreats when he doesn't have any of those three on his side.

There is no guarantee that General Grievous could rise and shine in the SWTOR times. Some of the biggest and most formidable droids, and even entities, got their @sses handed to them in these times.
Grievous plows and steamrolls through Jedi. Do you unironically believe that droids would beat him? I mean sure they would, if Filoni was directing and writing it.

"Only in your mind, my very young apprentice." - Obi-Wan Kenobi

The assumption that Anakin is in the league of Palpatine and Yoda is based on unsubsantiated hype in large part which I addressed above.
It's not an assumption, it was said by Lucas, lmfao :
[quote]From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.[/quote]
Emphasis on as strong as the Emperor

The legendary Hero of Tython scale from numerous (authentic) EXPERT swordsmen who made their mark in history, and defeated some of the most powerful Sith Lords to have ever existed and also a Voice of Valkorion in single combat. His credentials are even better than that of Anakin
Being equally powerful as the most powerful Sith lord and superior to the most powerful Jedi who ever existed, is somehow not better than the accolades and feats the HoT has, lmao.

Vaylin was able to handle the most skilled combatants in her time who in turn scale from The Alliance Commander who in turn might be the legendary Hero of Tython who in turn scale from numerous expert swordsmen who made their mark in history.
Anakin was also amongst the top 3 duelists of his time. Anakin also above people who scale above the HoT. Anakin was also equal to the most powerful Sith lord in history.

Let us consider the rating system adopted by Nick for fun:

Obi-Wan was rated TIER 7 in Episode 2 and TIER 8 in Episode 3.
Yet again you choose to forget that the system was created by Nick and Lucas.

A lone Acklay beast warranted Obi-Wan's full attention on Geonosis:
You know last I check animals didn't wield lightsabers.

Vaylin slaughtered THREE genetically enhanced Acklay beasts while next to each other without breaking a sweat on Nathema - the environment which hampered virtually 'any' Force-user to considerable effect.
Congratulations. You managed to prove that Vaylin is a more powerful force user and is stronger in the force than Obi Wan (albeit using a very funny argument).

Vaylin would fit in TIER 9 - all aspects considered.
All aspects considered, Vaylin would be a high 8. Around RoTS Dooku.

Vaylin's 'command of the Force' and 'raw power' is second only to Valkorion who in turn is advanced as the most powerful Force-user ever in two sources.
Yes. Valkorian was the most powerful force user, ever, in his own time. Him beating RoTS Sidious is already highly debatable.

Vaylin's mastery of the SENSE spectrum reached a stage and her 'command of the Force' developed to the extent that she was able to respond to Valkorion's manipulation of the space-time continuum. Just this part suggest that she can keep up with responses and speed of virtually 'any' Force-user including Palpatine and Luke Skywalker.
This proves she's a powerful force user, which I have never denied or argued against. Responding Valkorion's manipulation of the space-time continuum is literal chump change to either Sidious or Grandmaster Luke Skywalker.

Vaylin's ability to withstand external forces and stresses was phenomenal in any respect. She is the 'only' Force-user to have walked out from the Sanitarium - alive (lasting much longer on Nathema than any Jedi or Sith could). She is the 'only' Force-user to have withstood energies produced by the BRAIN (an experimental superweapon) which were LETHAL to the extent of 'atomizing' other Force-users and one-shot The Alliance Commander (if he is caught in the course of gameplay). She also withstood hyperdrive explosion at point blank range, shielding and saving her mother Senya Tirall from certain death in the process.
Don't really see why Anakin can't replicate any of those feats, lol.

Vaylin could tear apart massive structures including Skyscrapers as if they were nothing, destroyed an entire battalion of the Knights of Zakuul including their ships and shuttles with her telekinetic powers in open environment - who were opposing her on Ord Mantell (Darth Marr and Satele Shan - both conceded inferiority of the Jedi and Sith to the Knights of Zakuul in open clashes irrespective of the training regime adopted and talents acquired),
And Anakin could hold back planetary atmospheric storms single handily.

and she was capable of 'mass destruction' as per Valkorion.
Pretty sure that's we call "Hyperbole".

Anakin is noted for tilting a Conqueror-class dreadnought (Telekinesis), destroying a large droid (Telekinesis), redirecting an escape pod carrying Durge towards the SUN while watching it from a Starship (Telekinesis), collapsing a large dome (Force Scream; raw power), and sending Count Dooku packing with a kick (or Telekinesis) on separate occasions. All of these feats are well within the capacity of a number of Jedi and Sith in SWTOR times to replicate.
A random Jedi or Sith in TOR times is definitely capable of holding back planetary atmospheric storms and TK'ing dreadnought ships and shit stomping someone like Count Dooku, who can casually throw around multiple 215 meter long cruisers. Gotcha.

Vaylin is on another level in comparison.
Why don't you find me a showing of Vaylin holding back a planetary atmospheric storms single handily, then I will 100% agree with you on that statement you just made.

The 'mentally unstable' argument for Anakin can also be extended to Vaylin in view of how Valkorion treated her and what she had to endure on Nathema
It's not an "argument". For that matter it's not even up for debate. Anakin being mentally hindered on Mustafar is supported by the highest canonical source in Star Wars. You constantly ignoring those sources in favor of your own subjective POV on the Mustafar fight doesn't change that.

Vaylin was denied the opportunity to realize her true potential and develop her powers much like other Force-users by her father because he feared that she would surpass him in time. When Vaylin managed to unchain herself, her powers began to grow exponentially and Valkorion stressed that she must be stopped/killed before she becomes too powerful for virtually 'any' Force-user to handle.
Pretty sure being the chosen trumps that.

When Vaylin unchained herself:

1. She caught a number of ELITE Knights of Zakuul in a Force Choke, lifted them all from the ground, and one-shotted them all mid-air.
2. She destroyed Sanitarium on Nathema by virtue of causing the BRAIN to explode with a mere thought. The resultant destruction affected Nathema by and large. Not just this but producing effects of this level on Nathema is a mystery in itself. Nathema Zealots, the only faction of Force-users, to successfully adapt to conditions of Nathema, could do no such thing.
3. She demonstrated Battle Meditation in the league of Bastila Shan and Palpatine.
4. She produced a Force Maelstrom with sheer force of will when she was mortally wounded in a fight with The Alliance Commander and his powerful companions. This expression of power began to tear the entire setting apart and incapacitated all Force-users caught in its field but The Alliance Commander who was able to impale her with a Lightsaber before things got worse ("You were an exemplary pawn, one I forged into a vessel of supreme power--worthy of preserving my spirit.").
And Anakin was equally as powerful as RoTS Sidious, per Lucas, the highest canon in Star Wars. Anakin was also above Yoda, the most powerful Jedi in history up to that point, also backed by G-Canon sources. Anakin also is capable of holding back planetary atmospheric storms.

All of the above in the space of just two episodes; at this pace of growth, she could reach the stage of producing Force Storms, consuming worlds, and manipulating cosmic bodies much sooner than expected. And probably more.
That's based on conjecture and nothing more, really.

Should I attribute Vaylin's defeat in point 4 to her mental instability?
Buddy, your points haven't proved anything beyond that they contradict the highest canonical sources in SW.

Let us assume mentally stable Vaylin then. Does not bode well for Anakin.
I'm willing to do an SS on this, if you're interested.



S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

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December 3rd 2020, 9:01 am
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@DarthFatcow wrote:  
Buddy, this is a vision sequence. You can't use it to gauge anything.

Why not? Force visions experienced by Force-users represent 'possible futures' and 'provide directions' to them and/or help inform their decisions for better or worse. Yoda's vision is in sync with developments in Episode 3. It clearly show Anakin Skywalker outdueling and dismembering Count Dooku as it happened on Invisible Hand in Episode 3. It also gave the impression that the Jedi will fail to stop Palpatine as was the case in Episode 3. Key difference was that Anakin joined Yoda in his fight against Palpatine and Yoda's vision revealed how both stack up to Palpatine as of Episode 3. This vision was instructive to Yoda and he discouraged Obi-Wan from taking his chances with Palpatine when the time came.  

ANALOGY: Lord Scourge foresaw The Sith Emperor defeating him and his allies (Revan and Meetra Surik) in the expected battle in a vision and it helped inform his decision afterwards. He foresaw the legendary Hero of Tython defeating The Sith Emperor instead and this too came to pass.  

I can provide additional examples if need be.  

@DarthFatcow wrote:  
If i were to go that route Anakin defeated Mace Windu in an alternate version of RoTS, and that goes perfectly in sync with RoTS given how Anakin mopped the floor with Dooku and the latter's relative parity to Mace.
 
Like in the Star Wars: Episode III – Revenge of the Sith video game? Alternative battle sequences in this game are not canon and cannot be taken at face value. You need to be mindful of 'what is canon' and 'what is not canon' in your arguments, my friend. Yoda's vision is canon and can be considered to inform an argument.  

Anakin had trouble keeping up with dueling movements of both Mace Windu and Palpatine while observing both from a distance:  

"Vaapad, the seventh form of lightsaber combat, takes its name from a notoriously dangerous predator native to the moons of Sarapin: a vaapad attacks its prey with whipping strikes of its blindingly fast tentacles. Most have at least seven. It is not uncommon for them to have as many as twelve; the largest ever killed had twenty-three. With a vaapad, one never knew how many tentacles it had until it was dead: they move too fast to count. Almost too fast to see. So did Mace's blade." - Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith: Novelization  

+  

"Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind-the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straightahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once." - Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith: Novelization  

+  

"The shadow he fought, that blur of speed-could that be Palpatine? Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them-" - Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith: Novelization  

Mace was in the process of developing and honing his powers through the years, and his talents produced impressive results (versus Palpatine in Episode 3). Palpatine dismissed three EXPERT swordsmen in short order because of his much superior speed coupled with skills with a Lightsaber, and Mace was able to keep up with his moves by virtue of Vaapad (uncommon talent) and could also see Shatterpoints (another uncommon talent) which in turn helped him to achieve breakthrough in this duel - as pointed out in Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith: Novelization.

Mace's 'strength' is also credited in another source:

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 6688393-mace3 

Putting the aforementioned into perspective; Anakin cannot keep up with Palpatine for long, does not have Vaapad, and cannot see Shatterpoints either; he is not equipped to handle Palpatine in Episode 3.  

Anakin's accomplishment of defeating Count Dooku on Invisible Hand is INSTRUCTIVE for 'versus debates' but it does not establish his superiority over every character he may run into. There are circumstances attached to this duel which warrant attention:

1. Palpatine instructed Count Dooku to create a scenario which will compel Anakin to shed his Jedi restraints and weaponize his anger in the expected duel, and assured his intervention if Count Dooku is driven to defeat:  

And Palpatine was hardly the prize he appeared to be. The greater prize, Sidious had told Dooku during their most recent communication, was Anakin Skywalker.  

"Long have you watched him," Dooku had said, repeating words Sidious himself had spoken. "Longer than you know, Lord Tyranus. Longer than you know. And the time has come to test him again."  

"His skills, my lord?"  

"The depth of his anger. His willingness to go beyond the Force, as the Jedi know it, and to call on the power of the dark side. General Grievous will activate a special beacon that will call Skywalker and Kenobi back to Coruscant, and onto the stage we will set for them."  

But not to capture them.  

"You will duel them," Sidious had said. "Kill Kenobi. His only purpose is to die and, in so doing, ignite young Skywalker to tap the depths of his fear and rage. Should you defeat Skywalker easily, then we will know that he is not prepared to serve us. Perhaps he never will be prepared. Should he by some fluke best you, however, I will control the outcome to spare you any unnecessary embarrassment, and we will have gained a powerful ally. But above all you must make the contest appear real, Lord Tyranus."  

"I will treat it as if it were my crowning achievement," Dooku had promised.
- Star Wars: Labyrinth of Evil  

2. Therefore, on Invisible Hand, Count Dooku did not fight on his terms, but successfully created a scenario which compelled Anakin to tap into his emotions to fuel his strength by knocking out Obi-Wan and goading and mocking Anakin because Palpatine wanted to see what kind of results Anakin will produce in this situation.  

"A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker’s mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.

It is that simple, and that complex.

And it is final.

Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.

The play is still on; the comedy of lightsabers flashes and snaps and hisses. Dooku & Skywalker, a one-time-only command performance, for an audience of one. Jedi and Sith and Sith and Jedi, spinning, whirling, crashing together, slashing and chopping, parrying, binding, slipping and whipping and ripping the air around them with snarls of power.

And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker’s Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy."
- Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith: Novelization  

Anakin delivered in that situation and Palpatine convinced him to kill Count Dooku.  

In essence:

I love how this calls back to Yoda’s Episode I warning, “Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering,” while at the same time, “starburst of clarity” foreshadows what Palpatine later tells Anakin about his anger: “It gives you focus. Makes you stronger.” Opposite ends of the Force spectrum, illustrated perfectly. - Dan Brooks (Lucasfilm’s online copywriter and editor)

The supposedly 'in da zone' moment of Anakin was in fact him learning to weaponize his emotions akin to a Sith. - - - - - - [1]

But like life itself, the Force has a dark side, exemplified by base emotions like aggression, hatred, or fear. Sith famously adhere to the dark side, using the Force to corrupt, shape, and destroy life. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

The [1] is the Cheat (or the Force LSD) that Nick Gillard was alluding to. This technique served him well against Count Dooku under the given circumstances but it does not guarantee success against other powerful Force-users having distinct set of talents and in different situations. Anakin carried much the same to Mustafar:

As every step becomes more perilous and Vader's attacks more ferocious, Obi-Wan realizes that he still cares for Anakin, and that the only way he can defeat his opponent is to let go of his feelings for his former friend. - Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide

- but it did not work.

Mace will offer a different dueling experience to Anakin in the same setting (or across settings) in comparison to Count Dooku because of his distinct set of talents; Mace does not employ Form II but Form VII, and he could draw on Anakin's emotions to fuel his Vaapad as well as find a Shatterpoint to defeat him in a potential duel. Anakin's tactic to overcome Count Dooku could backfire in this case.  

In view of the above, your assertion: "If i were to go that route Anakin defeated Mace Windu in an alternate version of RoTS, and that goes perfectly in sync with RoTS given how Anakin mopped the floor with Dooku and the latter's relative parity to Mace." - does not hold up to SCRUTINY.

In before you try to dismiss the aforementioned information by pulling the G-Canon Card, I shall remind you that Disney is in charge of the Star Wars brand now and THEY get to decide what is Canon and what is not Canon. There is now the Canon continuity and the Legends continuity with only a part of the lore shared in both continuities such as the six movies (Episodes 1 - 6), The Clone Wars Film, and The Clone Wars animated series (Seasons 1 - 6). There is no such thing as G-Canon anymore and statements of George Lucas are now mere "informants." Times have changed, my friend. - - - - - - [2]

The Six Films (Episodes 1 - 6), The Clone Wars Film, and The Clone Wars animated series (Seasons 1 - 6) are Canon, therefore, information in them overrule 'contradictions' in the content exploring same themes but now classified as Legends.  

The Legends continuity is now a sandbox for BioWare to tinker with, and because its works are endorsed and acknowledged by Lucasfilm Ltd, they can FLIRT with the Most Powerful themes in the Legends continuity but they cannot dismiss Canon stories.

It is time for you to come to terms with the following hax now:  

"You are mine. Servants. Slaves. Weapons. And you will obey…" - Valkorion  

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 1076326320 

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Anakin's raw power mopped the floor with someone who had over 75 years of training.

See above.  

Anakin's 'raw power' cannot carry him in every situation and in every fight by itself - the 'command of the force' and level of 'mental discipline' help define skills with a Lightsaber as well as actualized powers and these factors are crucial in a duel versus other powerful opponents who may have distinct set of talents and introduce unknown circumstances. It is important to strive for excellence in the path one may choose (Light or Dark) - complete shift from one path to another will not guarantee success in all manner of challenges in the short term but in the long-term through enlightenment. Nick Gillard asserted that Anakin's leap to TIER 9 in Episode 3 was due to Cheat or Force LSD (i.e. he learned to weaponize his emotions to enhance his dueling output) and not by enlightenment which is the right way forward - his gains were temporary accordingly and did not last (defeated Count Dooku in a circumstantial fight but tasted defeat by the hand of Obi-Wan in another fight). Anakin's 'command of the force' and level of 'mental discipline' were sufficient to overcome majority of the Jedi and Sith of his time by Episode 3 but not necessarily Mace, Yoda, Palpatine, and even Obi-Wan - Anakin still had his work cut out for him. - - - - - - [3]

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 Jedi-Battlemaster-Vo-ren-Faalo

Now you understand?

Consider following ANALOGY as well: You might have a strong body but if your training and resultant fighting skills are inadequate for a number of situations then your 'raw strength' cannot carry you in every situation and in every fight by itself. You need to continue to train and hone your fighting skills for as many situations as possible. You also need to maintain a direction (Boxing or Wrestling) - you cannot be World Champion in both at the same time. The Floyd Mayweather versus Conor Mcgregor boxing match is an instructive case study.

@DarthFatcow wrote:  
Anakin was the most powerful Jedi of his time by virtue of having multiple accolades. Let alone the fact that he was flat out stated to be the most powerful Jedi in the opening of the RoTS Novel which Lucas himself edited.

Official debate for reference: https://www.starwars.com/news/from-a-certain-point-of-view-who-is-more-powerful-the-emperor-or-yoda

Anakin was the most powerful Jedi of his time from a certain point of view - his connection to the Force was possibly greater than that of any Jedi up to his time (i.e. raw power), enabling him to deliver in situations at times in which others in his time could not. He withstood a Theta Storm with utmost concentration (although a feat not exclusive to him), defeated The Dark Reaper while using a technique that only he could master in the required time span (courtesy of the ancient Jedi Master Ulic Qel-Droma), and accomplished much in the realm of Mortis where the Force was excessively strong and he could harness its flow to his advantage. Anakin had much 'raw power' in him but see [3] above. Extraordinary connection to the Force can be 'an advantage' in some situations by default and in numerous situations with excellent training. The amnesic Revan subconsciously benefited from his extraordinary connection to the Force (i.e. raw power) on Taris but he needed formal training to cope with more challenging situations to come.

After Anakin defeated the Dark Reaper, Obi-Wan acknowledged his growth in power but cautioned him:  

"Be careful Anakin. If you do not control the power inside you, it will consume you." - Obi-Wan Kenobi  

"I know what I am doing." - Anakin Skywalker  

"Be mindful of your term, my padawan. Do not forget that you are still but a learner." - Obi-Wan Kenobi  

"I will keep that in mind... Master." - Anakin Skywalker  

Now that sounds familiar  Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 1668617588  

The 'command of the Force' aspect have following spectrums; (1) Control; (2) Sense; and (3) Alter. Mastery of each discipline is essential to unlock great powers and achieve the level of 'mental discipline' to harness them on a consistent basis. If a Force-user is lacking in any spectrum, then this shortcoming must be addressed because 'raw power' or inherent potential can carry one so far by itself. Anakin's hype train follow idiosyncratic route, and I am trying to make you understand the bigger picture and draw more realistic/sensible conclusions.  

A > B > C logic does not hold up to scrutiny for some characters if not all.  

@DarthFatcow wrote:  
I already told you it's difficult to gauge characters that don't exist in G-Canon and that we need showings to place them on it. You're yet to show me a single showing for Vaylin that suggests she can last 3 minutes against Anakin.

You chose to defend following assertion from another member: "Vaylin isn't beating a tier 9 who's above Yoda and equal to RoTS Sidious in power, let alone Luke, lol." - remember?

You are loosing sight in this debate so here's a recap.  

The italicized assertion does not hold up to scrutiny in view of following considerations; (1) Yoda's vision which show Anakin defeating Count Dooku but loosing to Palpatine; (2) Anakin's accomplishment of defeating Count Dooku having circumstances attached to it (refer back to QUOTE from Star Wars: Labyrinth of Evil and the follow-on duel on Invisible Hand is in sync with Palpatine's instructions); (3) Anakin's leap to TIER 9 was due to the Cheat (or the Force LSD) and resultant gains did not last (see [3] above); and (4) Anakin's 'raw power' cannot carry him in every situation and in every fight by itself (see [3] above).

I have discussed Vaylin's dueling prowess at length in my previous post and pointed out how she scale from numerous (authentic) EXPERT swordsmen in this respect and countless powerful Force-users up to her time. I also scaled Vaylin from Obi-Wan when he was a TIER 7 as per the rating system you love to tout based on how the two fared against Acklay beasts and under what circumstances (enormous gap). I am not sure what else to show you - even if she is shown to blow up a world, you might say the same thing. Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 1220391476

Even Vaylin (chained) would be TIER 9 in her skills with a Lightsaber based on her scaling from Obi-Wan as of Episode 2 and her 'actualized powers' were on another level in comparison to the likes of Obi-Wan and Count Dooku by and large and also in comparison to Mace, Yoda, and even Palpatine as of Episode 3 on some counts after being unchained. Her powers were growing at an exponential rate but her tenure was cut short prematurely. Even Vaylin (chained) was able to cope with Arcann's powerful blows just fine who defeated The Outlander earlier; she will be able to handle Anakin's dueling moves just fine and break through his defenses with her overwhelming Force powers (Anakin had trouble coping with Count Dooku's Sith Lightning bursts as I showed in my previous response; Vaylin's Force powers will prove too much in comparison). This is the most logical take considering all factors.

It would be better that you take your time to digest all the information that I have shared with you in my previous post, and in this post, and then choose to respond instead of presenting one-liners like above. This effort is a waste of time and space otherwise - time which could be better spent elsewhere.  

@DarthFatcow wrote:  
Buddy, you're missing the point. I was mentioning the factors and advantages that led to Obi Wan's win. One of those being that he was the one who trained him. That along with Anakin's mental state all factored in to Anakin's defeat on Mustafar.

I did not miss your point - I pointed out that he was the one who trained him - is not necessarily an advantage in view of historical considerations* and Anakin had talents distinct from those of Obi-Wan on many counts by the time these two fought each other on Mustafar. This however: "Obi-Wan had better 'mental discipline' and his resultant proficiency in Form III proved meaningful (versus Anakin) - this was his advantage." - - - - - - [4]

*I provided some examples in my previous response (7 in total) which indicate that the student surpassed his/her Mentor(s) in each case, and some defeated/killed their own Mentor(s) in a duel after acquiring new powers.

@DarthFatcow wrote:  
And again, you're mentioning the mental discipline for Obi Wan but conveniently omitting it when in regards for Anakin. Anakin never had the mental discipline as Obi Wan, Gillard flat out states that. Gillard also states that Obi Wan doesn't make mistakes, Anakin did and it cost him the fight. Him not being mentally discipline enough coupled with other factors that I've already mentioned are the reasons why he lost.

See my quoted statement right above; you are loosing sight in this debate unfortunately.  

Good to see that WE found a common ground in the 'mental discipline' part: "Obi-Wan had better 'mental discipline'" - this is a start.  Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 1289255181    

The other part is this: "and his resultant proficiency in Form III proved meaningful (versus Anakin)." (refer back to the screen shot below [3] above)  Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 2266747095  

You presented following arguments:  

1. "Obi Wan had the advantage of being the one who trained Anakin. Let's not forget that shall we."  

2. "The only reason Obi Wan managed to survive and drag on the fight was due to the environment."  

3. "Anakin's mental state wasn't in the right place, considering that a focused Anakin mopped the floor with Dooku, who's superior to every version of Obi Wan."  

Based on the sources consulted, my contentions are as follows:  

1. Obi-Wan had better 'mental discipline' and his resultant proficiency in Form III proved meaningful (versus Anakin) - this was his advantage.  

See the screen shot below [3] much above, and also [4] right above.

2. The published statement (Star Wars: Complete Locations) makes it clear that both Obi-Wan and Anakin were able to cope with harsh environmental conditions of Mustafar and were not hindered by this aspect. What kind of 'environmental advantages' you are alluding to then? You would have a point if Obi-Wan could draw upon the energies of the planet itself to fuel his strength in order to fight Anakin but nothing of the sort is implied in any source. - - - - - - [5]

Obi-Wan was powerful enough to counter Anakin's Force powers as well (Star Wars: Episode III – Revenge of the Sith Film; Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith: Novelization).  

You love to pull the G-Canon Card when it suit you but you have trouble accepting what is shown in the Film? Not cool. Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 1419419311  

3. Please tell me what was wrong with Anakin at the time of his duel on Mustafar? Was he having difficulty navigating through the environment around him even though nothing suggest this to be the case? Was he unable to cope with the harsh environmental conditions of Mustafar even though published information disclose otherwise? Was he suffering spontaneous memory lapses, or actual pains, or his brain was damaged at the time? Nothing of the sort is implied in published information.

Anakin brought his talents to bear against Obi-Wan much like he did against Count Dooku and others earlier:

As every step becomes more perilous and Vader's attacks more ferocious, Obi-Wan realizes that he still cares for Anakin, and that the only way he can defeat his opponent is to let go of his feelings for his former friend. When Obi-Wan releases this emotional attachment, the battle turns for the Jedi. - Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide

Emphasis mine. When Obi-Wan released his emotional attachment, he achieved a higher state of awareness and clarity than before and he was able to discover and reach the higher ground consequently. This was the advantage he needed to stop Anakin in his tracks for good.  

Now this:

Driven by the dark side to greed and overweening arrogance, Anakin refused to accept that Obi-Wan has the advantage when his Master occupies the high ground on the bank of the lava river. - Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide

- is not 'mental hindrance' and his ability to call upon the Force was not compromised at the time. Anakin was being a Sith to the letter but he showed bad judgement in that situation - he was doing everything that he was taught by the Jedi not to but the Force LSD was intoxicating. He had blind faith in his 'new powers' at the time. He could choose to escape and fight another day when he would be more powerful than before. He could bide his time, benefit from tutelage of Palpatine, and seek a rematch at the time of his choosing. Many years later, Darth Vader had this to say to Obi-Wan on Death Star: "When I left you I was but a learner. Now, I am the Master."

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@DarthFatcow wrote:  
Couple of things wrong here :  

1. Anakin's own subjective opinion =/= fact  

2. Lucas has flat out stated that Mace can contend with RoTS Sidious. Yoda said Obi Wan was not powerful enough to fight Sidious. Unless you're trying to argue Obi Wan is as powerful as Mace therefore he can contend with Sidious, this argument doesn't work. This statement is invalidated by higher canonical sources that are more reliable than Anakin's own subjective view of Obi Wan.

I shared that quote to make for a CATCHY HEADLINE for the argument beneath it in my previous post. Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 3344068304  

Character conversations are a subtle way to convey meaningful information to the audience in any medium. Anakin said that in Episode 2 before The Clone Wars began. Characters grow and change over time and Mace was eventually established to be more powerful than Obi-Wan.  

Lucas [originally] believed that Obi-Wan was more powerful than Darth Vader and this is why the latter could not employ his Force powers against him on Death Star. Lucas also [originally] entertained the prospects of Darth Vader casting Sith Lightning and other forms of magical powers. If Darth Vader was around 80% of Palpatine then Obi-Wan was even closer to him. Lucas's original beliefs were better and more consistent than idiosyncratic realities of PT.

Lucas deserve full credit for creating such an intriguing and captivating mythos but he does not care much about 'consistency' when discussing ways of the Force. When he felt that a duel should conclude in a certain way then that was it. He rejected the alternative battle sequence depicting Obi-Wan defeating Anakin by going on the offensive in the final moments because this was not the Jedi way as per him and he also rejected Nick's propositions for the same duel. Lucas was never into the Expanded Universe (EU) and its 'consistency' drive. If Lucas had strongly considered 'consistency' then Anakin would have been too powerful for Obi-Wan to handle by himself and it would have been a Jedi Strike Team confronting him and defeating him on Mustafar in Episode 3. This development would be in sync with Anakin's accomplishment of defeating Count Dooku who dismissed Obi-Wan on the Invisible Hand without much of a challenge. In this way, idiosyncratic rationalizations could be avoided. But...

@DarthFatcow wrote:  
This only states that they were able to withstand the heat by cocooning themselves using the force. How does this prove anything? When I said environmental advantages I wasn't referring to temperatures, lol.

See [5] above.

@DarthFatcow wrote:  
This doesn't 100% mean they're equal in force powers, given that Anakin is canonically the most powerful Jedi of his time.
 
See [3] above and the 'From a certain point of view' part.

@DarthFatcow wrote:  
If anything this statement proves my point of Obi Wan having an environmental advantage. The fight wasn't on neutral ground. Obi Wan knew that and used it to his advantage.
 
I am not sure how you are concluding Obi-Wan having 'environmental advantages' on Mustafar from that quoted statement. Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 1220391476  

The quoted statement is merely providing description of the environment where the duel was taking place and the fact that Obi-Wan was able to handle Force powers of Anakin in the course.

Here is more to it:

They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth. The man he faced was everything Obi-Wan had devoted his life to destroying: Murderer. Traitor. Fallen Jedi. Lord of the Sith. And here, and now, despite it all ... Obi-Wan still loved him.

Yoda had said it, flat-out: Allow such attachments to pass out of one's life, a Jedi must, but Obi-Wan had never let himself understand. He had argued for Anakin, made excuses, covered for him again and again and again; all the while this attachment he denied even feeling had blinded him to the dark path his best friend walked. Obi-Wan knew there was, in the end, only one answer for attachment . . . He let it go.

The lake of fire, no longer held back by the ray shield, chewed away the shore on which the plant stood, and the whole massive structure broke loose, sending both warriors skidding, scrabbling desperately for handholds down tilting durasteel slopes that were rapidly becoming cliffs; they hung from scraps of cable as the plant's superstructure floated out into the lava, sinking slowly as its lower levels melted and burned away. Anakin kicked off from the toppling superstructure, swinging through a wide arc over the lava's boil. Obi-Wan shoved out and met him there, holding the cable with one hand and the Force, angling his blade high. Anakin flicked a Shien whipcrack at his knees. Obi-Wan yanked his legs high and slashed through the cable above Anakin's hand, and Anakin fell. Pockets of gas boiled to the surface of the lava, gouting flame like arms reaching to gather him in. But Anakin's momentum had already swung back toward the dissolving wreck of the collection plant, and the Force carried him within reach of another cable. Obi-Wan whipped his legs around his cable, altering its arc to bring him within reach of the one from which Anakin now dangled, but Anakin was on to this game now, and he swung cable-to-cable ahead of Obi-Wan's advance, using the Force to carry himself higher and higher, forcing Obi-Wan to counter by doing the same; on this terrain, altitude was everything. Simultaneous surges of the Force carried them both spinning up off the cables to the slant of the toppling superstructure's crane deck. Obi-Wan barely got his feet on the metal before Anakin pounced on him and they stood almost toe-to-toe, blades whirling and crashing on all sides, while around them the collection plant's maintenance droids still tinkered mindlessly away at the doomed machinery, as they would continue to do until lava closed over them and they melted to their constituent molecules and dissolved into the flow. A roar louder even than the volcano's eruption came from the river ahead; metal began to shriek and stretch. The river dropped away in a vertical sheet of fire that vanished into boiling clouds of smoke and gases. The whole collection plant was being carried, inexorably, out over a vast lava-fall. Obi-Wan decided he didn't really want to see what was at the bottom. He turned Anakin's blade aside with a two-handed block and landed a solid kick that knocked the two apart. Before Anakin could recover his balance, Obi-Wan took a running leap that became a graceful dive headlong off the crane deck. He hurtled down past level after level, and only a few tens of meters above the lava itself the Force called a dangling cable to his hand, turning his dive into a swing that carried him high and far, to the very limit of the cable. And he let it go. As though jumping from a swing in the Temple playrooms, his velocity sent him flying up and out over a catenary arc that shot him toward the river's shore. Toward. Not quite to. But the Force had led him here, and again it had not betrayed him: below, humming along a few meters above the lava river, came a big, slow old repulsorlift platform, carrying droids and equipment out toward a collection plant that its programming was not sophisticated enough to realize was about to be destroyed. Obi-Wan flipped in the air and let the Force bring him to a catfooted landing. An adder-quick stab of his lightsaber disabled the platform's guidance system, and Obi-Wan was able to direct it back toward the shore with a simple shift of his weight. He turned to watch as the collection plant shrieked like the damned in a Corellian hell, crumbling over the brink of the falls until it vanished into invisible destruction. Obi-Wan lowered his head. "Good-bye, old friend." But the Force whispered a warning, and Obi-Wan lifted his head in time to see Anakin come hurtling toward him out from the boil of smoke above the falls, perched on a tiny repulsorlift droid. The little droid was vastly swifter than Obi-Wan's logy old cargo platform, and Anakin was easily able to swing around ObiWan and cut him off from the shore. Obi-Wan shifted weight one way, then another, but Anakin's droid was nimble as a sand panther; there was no way around, and this close to the lava, the heat was intense enough to crisp Obi-Wan's hair. "This is the end for you, Master," he said. "I wish it were otherwise." "Yes, Anakin, so do I," Obi-Wan said as he sprinted into a leaping dive, making a spear of his blade. Anakin leaned aside and deflected the thrust almost contemptuously; he missed a cut at Obi-Wan's legs as the Jedi Master flew past him. Obi-Wan turned his dive into a forward roll that left him barely teetering on the rim of a low cliff, just above the soft black sand of the riverbank. Anakin snarled a curse as he realized he'd been suckered, and leapt off his droid at Obi-Wan's back- Half a second too slow. Obi-Wan's whirl to parry didn't meet Anakin's blade. It met his knee. Then his other knee. And while Anakin was still in the air, burned-off lower legs only starting their topple down the cliff, Obi-Wan's recovery to guard brought his blade through Anakin's left arm above the elbow. He stepped back as Anakin fell. Anakin dropped his lightsaber, clawing at the edge of the cliff with his mechanical hand, but his grip was too powerful for the lava bank and it crumbled, and he slid down onto the black sand. His severed legs and his severed arm rolled into the lava below him and burned to ash in sudden bursts of scarlet flame. The same color, Obi-Wan observed distantly, as a Sith blade. Anakin scrabbled at the soft black sand, but struggling only made him slip farther. The sand itself was hot enough that digging his durasteel fingers into it burned off his glove, and his robes began to smolder. Obi-Wan picked up Anakin's lightsaber. He lifted his own as well, weighing them in his hands. Anakin had based his design upon Obi-Wan's. So similar they were. So differently they had been used. "Obi-Wan . . . ?" He looked down. Flame licked the fringes of Anakin's robe, and his long hair had blackened, and was beginning to char. "You were the chosen one! It was said you would destroy the Sith, not join them. It was you who would bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness. You were my brother, Anakin," said Obi-Wan Kenobi. "I loved you, but I could not save you."

A flash of metal through the sky, and Obi-Wan felt the darkness closing in around them both. He knew that ship: the Chancellor's shuttle. Now, he supposed, the Emperor's shuttle. Yoda had failed. He might have died. He might have left Obi-Wan alone: the last Jedi. Below his feet, Darth Vader burst into flame. "I hate you," he screamed. Obi-Wan looked down. It would be a mercy to kill him. He was not feeling merciful. He was feeling calm, and clear, and he knew that to climb down to that black beach might cost him more time than he had. Another Sith Lord approached. In the end, there was only one choice. It was a choice he had made many years before, when he had passed his trials of Jedi Knighthood, and sworn himself to the Jedi forever. In the end, he was still Obi-Wan Kenobi, and he was still a Jedi, and he would not murder a helpless man. He would leave it to the will of the Force. He turned and walked away. After a moment, he began to run.
- Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith: Novelization

The aforementioned is in sync with following:

As every step becomes more perilous and Vader's attacks more ferocious, Obi-Wan realizes that he still cares for Anakin, and that the only way he can defeat his opponent is to let go of his feelings for his former friend. When Obi-Wan releases this emotional attachment, the battle turns for the Jedi. - Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide

Both belligerents found themselves in difficult situations and were able to recover from them time and again. Anakin, in fact, managed to create an advantage when he remarked "This is the end for you, Master," only for Obi-Wan to leap to the higher ground in the next moment. Obi-Wan's emotional detachment from Anakin helped him navigate the environment with greater clarity than before and avoid costly mistakes. You would have a point if Obi-Wan could draw upon the energies of the planet itself to fuel his strength in order to fight Anakin but nothing of the sort is implied in any source (see [5] above). You would have a point if Obi-Wan had spent much time on Mustafar in order to familiarize himself with its terrain and sprung a trap only for Anakin to land into it just as he intended but nothing of the sort is implied in any source. Your argument is moot in this case. - - - - - - [6]

@DarthFatcow wrote:  
A statement which is already invalidated by higher canonical sources as I've shown in previous posts.

Tell me about it.  

@DarthFatcow wrote:  
Obi Wan having feelings towards Anakin and having an attachment to him proves your point how? Unless you're gonna use this quote to argue that Obi Wan was holding back and once he stopped he won, and ignoring the litany of reasons that you have done so far, this doesn't work.

See [6] above.

Ignoring the litany of reasons? I am making sure that I address each of your point in my responses. I respect your time and investment in this conversation but you have disappointed me thus far. You are trying to discredit published statements by pulling the 'higher canonical sources' Card time and again on the other hand - this doesn't work in view of the Canon-Legends split. If you prefer to draw conclusions on the basis of Lucas' statements in large part and ignore published information informing his works then your grasp of much of the lore will remain weak and you will frustrate other debaters in the process. I suggest that you stop living in the past now.

@DarthFatcow wrote:  
Alternate scenes are not applicable here. I can also use alternate versions of RoTS that had Anakin beating Mace Windu.

See above - the section of my response to your quote (2nd in the row).

I highlighted the alternative sequence of battle to simply convey to you that those who were involved in the making of Episode 3 were not thinking on your lines actually; that Anakin was too powerful; that Obi-Wan had environmental advantages; that Anakin was mentally unstable and his ability to call upon the Force on Mustafar was compromised in any capacity. Nothing of the sort.

@DarthFatcow wrote:  
Pal, when I say Anakin was mentally hindered I don't mean he became a retard who can't swing a lightsaber properly and can't walk without tripping.

See above - the section of my response to your quote (2nd in the row).

Anakin had joined the Sith and was now driven by emotions in full capacity - this does not suggest 'mental hindrance' and his ability to call upon the Force wasn't compromised by extension. Why try to 'impose' your view on a particular development when published information suggest otherwise?  

@DarthFatcow wrote:  
Yes. Due to his mental state. Or are you constantly going to ignore that?

OR you continue to mistake bad judgement for mental hindrance? Please tell me what was wrong with Anakin at the time of his duel on Mustafar? Was he having difficulty navigating through the environment around him even though nothing suggest this to be the case? Was he unable to cope with the harsh environmental conditions of Mustafar even though published information disclose otherwise? Was he suffering spontaneous memory lapses, or actual pains, or his brain was damaged at the time? Nothing of the sort is implied in published information.

@DarthFatcow wrote:  
This argument is refuted by the RoTS Novel itself when Dooku decides he's no longer going to follow his master plan and would try and kill Anakin :  

No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with that. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easily than  a new apprentice.

Dooku had always known of the reality of the Sith for betrayal, Sidious already said this :  

Sidious bared his teeth, but only briefly. "Darth Tyranus knew what he risked, Lord Vader. If he had been stronger in the dark side, you would be dead, and he would be my right hand."  

Source: Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader
 
Thanks for the share. Count Dooku would be in a dilemma; he could consider fighting the Jedi on his terms on Invisible Hand and possibly escape only to risk Palpatine's retaliation at a later stage. Recall how Palpatine treated Darth Maul after the latter's return?  



Count Dooku apparently decided that it would be better to take his chances with the Jedi instead, and followed his Master's instructions on Invisible Hand; he attempted to and succeeded in incapacitating Obi-Wan which enraged Anakin and then goaded Anakin into weaponizing his emotions much like a Sith Lord. This backfired on him and he was driven to defeat. Unfortunately for him, Palpatine's assurances of intervention on his behalf were empty as well.  

Episode 3 Novelization contradicts Episode 3 Film in some aspects but the the latter is Canon in comparison.  Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 2266747095  

@DarthFatcow wrote:  
It was blatantly obvious that Sidious orchestrated this whole thing to test Anakin. Dooku was never meant to do anything. He blasted him away when he realized if he held back too much he would be dead. Dooku was literally throwing forks at Anakin.

Count Dooku had no dictation from Palpatine for how to fight Anakin in this case and created window for his escape after subjecting Anakin to a blast of Sith Lightning.  



Palpatine decided to clip Count Dooku's wings therefore because the duels between his apprentice and Anakin were proving inconclusive otherwise. These flow of events seem to tie in.

@DarthFatcow wrote:  
Dooku would beat Obi Wan on Mustafar because he's far more disciplined than Anakin ever was. Dooku would have won on Mustafar because his mental state would not have been similar to Anakin. Both Anakin and Dooku outclass Obi Wan in just about everything. The difference between them is that if Dooku was on Mustafar his mental state would not have been as Anakin's.  I'm not really going to constantly repeat myself over Anakin's mental state. You can accept or not accept, it doesn't really change that it was a factor.

Here is a simple answer: Count Dooku could break through Obi-Wan's defenses as well as that of Anakin's (see the footage shared right above of the duel on Naboo).

I have discussed at length in this post the circumstances attached to Anakin's accomplishment of defeating Count Dooku on Invisible hand, and addressed your 'mental hindrance' theory to rationalize Anakin's failure in a duel (versus Obi-Wan) on Mustafar. I have clarified that Anakin learned to weaponize his emotions much like a Sith Lord (see [1] above); this technique served him well against Count Dooku under the given circumstances, and in the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, but it did not provide breakthrough against Obi-Wan on Mustafar (see [3] above). He had blind faith in his 'new powers' at the time. He could choose to escape and fight another day when he would be more powerful than before. Many years later, Darth Vader had this to say to Obi-Wan on Death Star: "When I left you I was but a learner. Now, I am the Master." You need to come to terms with published and/or canonized information. This is for the best.

@DarthFatcow wrote:  
Ah yes. The ever so fun argument that Dooku only lost to Anakin because of a stylistic disadvantage. Which is negated by the sheer amount of statements saying Anakin was far more powerful than Dooku, beyond the fact that the RoTS Novel states that Dooku's lightsaber skills were a joke next to Anakin's.

The Seven Forms of Lightsaber Combat are an important consideration but I did not assert that 'stylistic disadvantage' was the only factor in his defeat. Anakin's 'command of the force' and level of 'mental discipline' were sufficient to overcome majority of the Jedi and Sith of his time by Episode 3 and he would be stronger than Count Dooku when they fought on Invisible Hand but the gap wasn't big enough for Anakin to completely dictate the terms in this fight. Count Dooku could decide not to mock Anakin after goading him and fight using his Force powers and the outcome could change then - another inconclusive duel? Anakin still had his work cut out for him. You are taking Anakin's inner thoughts at face value and overlooking the circumstances involved.

@DarthFatcow wrote:  
Pal, for the millionth time, Gillard's assertion are G-Canon. The whole tiering system is G-Canon. It overrides every other secondary sources. I've already said this to many times.

Not this again.  

@DarthFatcow wrote:  
And for years it's been explained why Anakin lost. Every advantage Obi Wan had is clear as day. Because if we go by what you're arguing that would mean Obi Wan is > Dooku, Mace, Yoda and is = RoTS Sidious. You not willing to see those advantages and purposely omitting them doesn't change the reality.

Take your time to comprehend and come to terms with everything stated above in this post.

@DarthFatcow wrote:  
It's not a theory. It's been explained by Gillard who's words in the context of the PT are G-Canon. You constantly ignoring that doesn't change it.

Yeah, you are. What you're arguing literally contradicts G-Canon.
 
See above - the section of my response to your quote (2nd in the row). Please stop in living in the past.

@DarthFatcow wrote:  
All tier 9's are equal in skill. You constantly ignoring that the tiering system is G-Canon yet again does not change reality.

That is so wrong: "You know it's dangerous because he hasn't done it the right way. But he is still a nine - still something you need to deal with. So that's where the Forms came from." - Nick Gillard

You see things in Black and White and overlook so many Shades of Grey.


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@DarthFatcow wrote:
Padawans must face the savage native Flesh Raiders, negotiate with the local Twi'lek settlers, and survive Tython's mysterious and dangerous ruins. Though the destruction of the Jedi Temple on Coruscant was a tragedy, training on their new home planet has helped equip the Jedi to face a galaxy at war. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

This proves they're as impressive as Grievous how?


This would be a lengthy explanation so bear with me. The Jedi Civil War destroyed the Jedi Order and a small number of survivors including Meetra Surik and Bastila Shan had to start from scratch to rebuild it. The resultant Jedi Order was shaped by lessons of the past and more vigilant than before although Valkorion dispatched the Emperor's Wrath to assassinate promising Jedi time and again to make sure that the Empire remains unchallenged until the time is right to commence the Great Galactic War. The Jedi Order is able to hold its own but is dealt a severe blow in the Sacking of Coruscant among others. The Jedi Temple on Coruscant is total loss in the mix. Satele Shan (now the Grand Master) rediscover Tython through her meditations and the Jedi Order (SWTOR) relocate to this planet to uncover its secrets as well as train a new generation of Jedi on it; qualities such as 'aptitude in combat' and 'strength in the Force' are now prioritized above all else in the training regime adopted and the Padawans must face the savage native Flesh Raiders, negotiate with the local Twi'lek settlers, and survive Tython's mysterious and dangerous ruins in the process. This was a marked shift from the earlier training regime that was confined to comforts of the Jedi Temple on Coruscant in large part much like in the days of Yoda. Tython was not just another world but scarred by historical developments including Hundred-Year Darkness which spawned some of the most powerful Force-users including Karness Muur but was lost to history due to collapse of the hyperspace route touching it and some of the greatest secrets buried beneath the layers with it:

It is believed that the Jedi Knights have more skills and abilities than what is currently known. It was whispered that the Jedi could alter the structure of the universe, live beyond even death, and accomplish other miraculous feats. Now, however, these secrets, if they exist at all, await rediscovery ... - Ood Bnar - before the Great Sith War - Star Wars: The Tales of the Jedi Companion

Eventually:

When the Jedi Temple was destroyed in the Sacking of Coruscant, the Jedi returned to their ancestral home to seek guidance from the Force and reclaim the ancient knowledge and wisdom that had been left by their ancestors. A new Jedi Temple was raised on the ruins of an ancient temple, and soon the Jedi Order began training a new generation of Padawans.

The new Padawans could stand as a beacon of light to cut through the shroud of darkness cast by the Empire's return.
- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

This new generation of Jedi was much better equipped to deal with all manner of external threats than any other and helped turn the tide of Galactic Warfare inflicting crushing blows to the Empire by and large and even to Valkorion himself - these turn of events are apparent in SWTOR vanilla stories. The powerful Dread Masters are also driven to defeat and some of the most dangerous entities to ever surface are taken care of in the mix. Unfortunately for the Jedi, Revanites succeed in reawakening Valkorion and The Eternal Empire emerge from the shadows to conquer the galaxy but the Jedi and Sith regroup under The Alliance Commander and The Eternal Empire is defeated in The Nathema Conspiracy. Sith revert to their original agenda and the Empire renew its onslaught. It is unclear how long this conflict will last (the archives are incomplete) but both the Jedi and Sith will suffer much decline in the future.

The Jedi Order will rebuild the Jedi Temple on Coruscant at some point and revert to its traditional training regime with Younglings and Padawans receiving formal training in comforts of the Jedi Temple and dealing with thugs outside and this trend will continue till PT. As the Jedi Order will grow out of touch with mechanisms of Sith in times of peace, quality of the Jedi will significantly drop as well.

But while the Republic seemed strong, its institutions had begun to rot. Greedy corporations sought profits above all else and a corrupt Senate did nothing to stop them, until the corporations reduced many planets to raw materials for factories and entire species became subjects for exploitation. Individual Jedi continued to defend the Republic’s citizens and obey the will of the Force, but the Jedi Order to which they answered grew increasingly out of touch. And a new Sith mastermind, Darth Sidious, at last saw a way to restore Sith domination over the galaxy and its inhabitants, and quietly worked to set in motion the revenge of the Sith … - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

+

Not every Force power or talent is well known in all eras. Knowledge is gained and lost over time, and techniques that are common in Great Sith War are all but forgotten by the time of the Clone Wars. - Star Was Saga – The Jedi Academy Training Manual

+

Pyramidal in shape, as opposed to the geodesic Jedi version, the holocrons were repositories of recorded knowledge, accessible only to those who were highly evolved in the use of the Force. Arcane writing inscribed on the holocrons Vader had fetched told Sidious that they had been recorded by Sith during the era of Darth Bane, some one thousand standard years earlier. Sidious didn't have to imagine the content of the devices, because his own Master, Darth Plagueis, had once allowed him access to the actual holocrons. The ones stored in the Temple archives room were nothing more than clever forgeries-Sith disinformation of a sort. - Star Wars: Rise of Darth Vader

+

The Jedi slowly decline up to the point of the Clone Wars, but the sudden deaths of dozens of Jedi at the battle of Geonosis mark the first step in the rapid thinning of the Jedi ranks. - Star Wars Saga – The Clone Wars Campaign Guide

General Grievous (GG) was able to kill numerous Jedi due to significant drop in their quality by that time. Why is a cyborg proving so much for the Jedi when they have Force powers? Many were not equipped to handle bounty hunters either; Jango Fett killed some with his bear hands. Many fell to the droids and the Clones when the latter turned on them (Order 66). Many could not handle Sith apprentices such as Asajj Ventress and Savage Opress, let alone powerful Sith Lords.

The Jedi in SWTOR times were able to handle regular troops, sophisticated droids, bounty hunters, cyborgs, powerful Sith Lords, and even entities. They were able to address some of the greatest challenges to ever materialize in the form of Lord Vivicar’s Plague, Children of the Emperor, and the Dread Masters respectively – challenges to which relatively ancient Jedi such as in the times of the Great Sith War and the Jedi Civil War had no answer when consulted. Continue to read below.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
And Grievous would have zero trouble dealing with any of the above.


LOL – Your ignorance and/or lack of judgement is really showing - see below.

1. Lord Vivicar’s Plague takes over the minds of some of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy and the only way to set them free is through a special shielding technique which REQUIRE a living being to be extraordinarily strong in the ways of the Force to learn and try it because each instance of its use imposes heavy penalty on the wielder (one Jedi lost his life in the FIRST attempt to give you an idea). GG does not fit the bill, my friend. Lord Vivicar’s Plague turned his kind into puppets of his will only to misuse them and feed on them.

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 Shielding-technique

This photo captures the special shielding technique in action, and the subject in this case is Jedi Master Cin Tykan, a Kaleesh, who is no Coleman Trebor in combat situations I assure you (e.g. two marksmen pulled their guns on him only to be shoved around and killed by a blast of power which came in a split-second moment) - this is minor stuff for him. His incredible ‘Command of the Force’ and biology enabled him to traverse even the most dangerous environments of the galaxy and help recover some of the ravaged worlds in the process. He would go to and flourish in places where others wouldn’t dare to and/or last long. Due to this factor, he was finding it difficult to take a Padawan and found one suitable after a long break. This guy is a Kaleesh at its finest. - - - - - - [7]

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A Kaleesh Jedi Master, Cin Tykan’s expert survival skills allow him to thrive in the deadliest and most dangerous environments. Master Tykan has put his unique talents to use throughout the galaxy, exploring and studying dozens of ravaged worlds and finding ways to reverse the catastrophic damage to their ecosystems. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Codex Entry: Cin Tykan (Consular)

2. Children of the Emperor were extensions of Valkorion’s will in other living beings and each was a Master of the Force without formal training irrespective of biology and Force-sensitivity (“You think so? Sith fight to master the powers we Children use as infants” - Augin Blaesus). Each had the strength to exchange blows with the legendary Jedi Consular and one even bested him in a cut-scene in ACT 3. The legendary Jedi Consular was able to address the threat of Lord Vivicar’s Plague which would have crippled the entire Jedi Order otherwise – he was so powerful in the ways of the Force that he utilized the special shielding technique [repeatedly] to release some of the most valuable Jedi from Lord Vivicar’s Plague before confronting the SOURCE itself:

The Consular – now the only Jedi in the galaxy who knows the secrets of this shielding technique – sets out on a dangerous adventure to seek others afflicted by the plague and determine its cause. After a long and difficult search, the Consular discovers that the plague was created long ago, by an ancient Sith who possesses terrifying power. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Lord Vivicar was siphoning energies from hundreds of Jedi to fuel his own at the time but the legendary Jedi Consular prevailed in the resultant showdown:

Boarding Vivicar’s flagship, the Consular challenges and defeats Vivicar, only to discover that Vivicar is possessed by the spirit of the plague’s original creator, the ancient Sith Lord Terrak Morrhage. The Consular faces a near-impossible choice: risk attempting to redeem Vivicar and restore every Jedi afflicted with his plague, or cut Vivicar down, which would kill every plague-stricken Jedi, but would also destroy the plague and its evil, forever. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Having demonstrated EXCEPTIONAL skill and wisdom, the legendary Jedi Consular was not only granted the rank of Jedi Master but bestowed the mantle of Barsen’thor (only 3 Jedi qualified for this mantle throughout history and only 1 lived through the experience of it). Lifting and throwing massive (multiton) objects around were minor feats for this guy. Before confronting Master Tykan, a massive BLAST DOOR was blocking his path and he destroyed it easily (this BLAST DOOR was 25 feet tall and 3 feet thick in its construction). The Jedi are not into abusing their powers on average; it is difficult to tell to what extent the legendary Jedi Consular is capable of affecting an external environment but based on his heavy utilization of the special shielding technique and still having the capacity to handle Lord Vivicar, he is absolutely Yoda TIER if not better. The legendary Jedi Consular was able to recover his lost strength and became a true Master of the Force before discovering Children of the Emperor. Now you can imagine at what levels of strength and capabilities Children of the Emperor were operating on average. The most powerful of them all was the First Son who made it impossible for the Jedi Order to sense and unmask each and every Child of the Emperor for as long as the former existed – imagine this (Palpatine concealed his own darkness from the Jedi Order but the First Son took this matter to another level in comparison). When the legendary Jedi Consular confronted and defeated Augin Blaesus in single combat, King Sethun was in disbelief for a while: “He’s dead? You-how could you... he seemed invincible.” Going by the cut-scenes, Children of the Emperor incorporated Force powers in their attacks, and some were capable of handling even the most powerful Jedi of the time (the Jedi Order (SWTOR) was/is at its finest throughout history as explained to you above). These beings could work in GROUPS as well when necessary.

In view of the above, I don’t see GG having an easy time with a lone Child of the Emperor and some would be capable of one-shotting him. GG is not equipped to handle advanced Sith powers. He is fast and can evade attacks but not for long.

3. Conventional armies of the Empire were a solid mix of well-trained troops, sophisticated droids, massive armored vehicles, heavy artillery, Sith Warriors, and sophisticated aircraft working in tandem in pursuit of assigned objectives in any theater of operations.

THE ARMIES of the Sith Empire are a masterpiece of military ingenuity. Their training is as effective as it is efficient. Their equipment is second to none. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

GG had impressive body armor enabling him to withstand a certain amount of firepower but he cannot hold his ground against an entire conventional army out in the open – this is suicide.

Gungans defeated GG using EMP munitions.



When Mace threw a vehicle at GG, it injured the latter and he needed rescue.

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 4228578-winducrush

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When Master Ki Adi Mundi brought a well-armed Squad of Clone Troopers to attack GG inside the wreckage of a starship, the latter used his speed and the environment to evade attacks throughout the ordeal.



A conventional army of the Empire encompass a lot more than that and would have converted that Starship wreckage into a tomb of GG instead.

Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 Empire-army-organizational-units

When a full formation of Imperial armor sets out toward an objective, practically nothing can stand in their way. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Think before you type your responses, my friend.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Considering that Grievous has killed hundreds of Jedi and is capable of fighting 5 trained masters at once, with 2 of them being council members, I'm pretty sure Grievous would have plowed through everyone in the Hope cinematic.


GG killed ‘many’ in unknown circumstances and quality of the Jedi had significantly dropped by his time as I have explained above. If the likes of Coleman Trebor were making it to the Jedi High Council and hyped as one of the best in his time then where does this leave the average?

It is rather shameful to see 5 x Jedi failing to defeat GG when a bunch of Gungans managed to. Every fight can be a different experience from the next – you are extrapolating from GG’s finest hour and this does not work. GG stood no chance against a conventional army out in the open by himself – this is ridiculous assumption.

SWTOR Hope Cinematic demonstrate LEGIONS of Republic’s finest Havoc Squads AMBUSING an advancing column of a conventional army of the Empire while it was moving through the forest and many were all but overwhelmed until Satele Shan arrived and turned the battle around with her incredible Force powers and blinding speed levels which enabled her to BLITZE many in her path (time-slowing effects were/are adopted to capture her actions in the Cinematic because she is too fast for many of the well-trained Force-users to keep up with, let alone normal people). This battle was shown through the lens of Jace Malcom, Satele and Darth Malgus in large part – there were numerous developments which were not shown in the Cinematic or it would become a Feature Film. Aryn Leener was also involved in this battle and she too was an overwhelming presence much like Satele in the battlefield. These guys are operating at levels BEYOND the likes of GG because Palpatine was convinced that Darth Malgus’s battlefield exploits were never duplicated throughout history. By no means it was easy for Satele to defeat Darth Malgus on Aldeeran; she credited Jace’s timely intervention for her victory in this duel. Even though Darth Malgus suffered a major blow in this duel, he had he strength to get back on his feet and proceeded to cut down two Jedi in sheer anger before leaving Aldeeran (one of them powerful enough to collapse buildings in a fight). Palpatine understand the ways of the Force better than most and his judgements are to the point and realistic on many counts.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Grevious could also pressure Mace Windu whilst being environmentally hindered. Grievous could also overload Obi Wan's defenses. Grievous could also pressure Dooku on multiple occasions. Dooku also beat Durge and Ventress simultaneously. Grievous could also shit stomp 5 Jedi Masters simultaneously. Grievous can also out muscle Darth Maul. The HoT being > the best Jedi swordsman and Sith warriors doesn't really prove anything beyond that he's better than them. You'd have to show why these Masters stack up to either Windu, Obi Wan's or Dooku's lightsaber skills. Which they don't.


GG was a Kaleesh and a well-constructed cyborg on top of that – he should not be environmentally hindered in theory. GG had superhuman strength and speed by virtue of his cybernetics; he could shatter a humanoid droid with a single hit. He could build much pressure on many a living being due to his cybernetics in a duel. This does not suggest that the legendary Hero of Tython and his chief opponents do not stack up to either Mace, Obi-Wan, or Count Dooku in skills with a Lightsaber. There are no official rankings to consult and consider. I have yet to see anybody approaching technical proficiency levels of Master Kao Cen Darach [on-screen], and the legendary Hero of Tython scale from him among others. Force-users are separated by time, have different strengths and weaknesses, and employ their own choice of fighting forms against opponents. How many know about Master Vo’ren Faalo, his teachings, and standing in the lore for instance? He could be better than the names you provided going by his teachings. Qualities such as 'aptitude in combat' and 'strength in the Force' were prioritized above all else in SWTOR times – remember this.

Do you take interest in the Terminator franchise? Each Terminator is very strong and durable. Each could breach heavy structures, flip a large vehicle over, punch through a human, tolerate much firepower, and more. Humans managed to fight these Terminators regardless and even reprogram some of them to do their bidding, and the Corners weren’t necessary as the latest Film established. If not the Corners, somebody else would rise to the occasion.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Oh boy. Let's see how many blatantly false things we can get from this :

1. Filoni had an extremely low opinion on Grievous. This is blatant when he had the latter lose to Gungans. And the fact that he flat says he doesn't think Grievous can beat any force users.

2. Ah yes, let's ignore the fact that the novel flat out states he overloaded Obi Wan's defenses and that Obi Wan never killed Grievous in a duel. You should rewatch the movie again.


LOL – what is FALSE in the following footage:



???

Authors have their respective biases but I can see his point. Jedi are supposed to have formidable powers to deal with impossible odds in theory – unless the Jedi Order began to train those in the ways of the Force who were not much Force-sensitive to begin with but NUMBERS were important to maintain to meet all commitments across the galaxy. This could be one of the reasons why the Jedi Order was in decline in times of peace and many were unable to deliver results in a galactic war when it materialized after a long break.

Highly stubborn and emotional, he shows arrogance in his abilities as a pilot, with a lightsaber, and with the Force. Unlike other Jedi who display overconfidence in their abilities, Anakin is able to back up his boasts. - Star Wars Saga: The Clone Wars Campaign Guide

I respect cybernetics and acknowledge strengths of GG but I find his HYPE ridiculous in view of his numerous documented blunders and cowardice, and that he is a part of a galaxy which bear witness to threats of far greater magnitude only to become FOOTNOTES in archives or historian accounts. As I pointed out earlier, Lucas did not take much interest in EU and its consistency drive. He was mainly interested in telling his story of Star Wars and he did not necessarily come up with great characters and high quality content much of which is apparent in PT. Just look at the Battle of Naboo in Episode 1 (the technologies demonstrated and Jar Jar Binks in it). There is a vast disparity in technologies shown in Episode 1 and the remainder of Star Wars and in universe explanation of this disparity is in the QUOTE from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan which I have shared above. Darth Maul was cool in Episode 1 but this character was also ruined in The Clone Wars. WE have to come to terms with these contents now.

Obi-Wan is most effective in Form III (defensive) but not necessarily in Form IV (offensive). He did succeed in cutting off two cybernetic arms of GG and send him packing across the hall with a Force push. GG realized that he will have to change his tactics or risk demise which came regardless. This duel does justice to both in a way – GG proves to be a hard nut to crack due to his cybernetics but the Jedi Master have his skills and the Force to guide his actions and succeeds in cracking him. This is one of the better moments of Episode 3.

GG could be a much better character than how he was presented in the Clone Wars mini series. Somebody who could put his cybernetics to effective use in difficult situations while defending himself and avoiding direct confrontations with the Jedi Masters – relying on his innovative tactics and seemingly endless supply of droids to spring TRAPS for the Jedi when the situation called for it. This could be much better storytelling and would be in sync with developments and dialogues in Episode 3. However, some authors did not had many bright ideas... And now GG is one of the idiosyncratic themes of Star Wars.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
This is refuted by the fact that Grievous has killed hundreds of Jedi (https://i.servimg.com/u/f50/20/28/46/53/captur10.png).

Covered - see above.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Except Obi Wan never out dueled Grievous. Neither in the movie or Novel. He killed Grievous using a blaster.

Covered - see above.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
No. It has to do with the fact that Dooku trained Grievous to overcome the advantages of not having the force.

There are ways to achieve superhuman strength, reflexes, and speed in Star Wars, but come on. The Force is the single greatest aspect of Star Wars and its gifts to living beings should be unparalleled. I can understand some of the greatest technology-driven warriors in the galaxy being able to kill Jedi in single combat using uncommon technologies and tactics, but beating the Jedi in their own game with cybernetics? This is bad storytelling. GG does not benefit much from his accomplishments in cross-era comparisons anyways as I have established above.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Don’t let your pursuit of trinkets cloud your reality. Remember what I taught you, general. If you are to succeed in combat against the best of the Jedi, you must have fear, surprise, and intimidation on your side; for if any one element is lacking, it would be best for you to retreat. You must break them, before you engage them. Only then will you ensure victory... and have your trophy

Grievous retreats when he doesn't have any of those three on his side.

That instruction makes sense in itself but actual developments are not in sync with it; GG was able to kill hundreds and even humiliate some of the Jedi Masters. I see no point in expanding on this further in view of what I had to say above.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Grievous plows and steamrolls through Jedi. Do you unironically believe that droids would beat him? I mean sure they would, if Filoni was directing and writing it.


LOL - Thanks for the laugh in this case.

Well; depends on the type of droid.

Some were gigantic, well-equipped, and durable to the extent that each was declared the WORLD BOSS after becoming a rogue on any planet where it was last witnessed - these were uncommon productions. Some of the WORKER droids on Coruscant were HUGE – so much so that they could reduce living beings to pulp with just their raw emissions when passing through a sector. And some were literally SUPERWEAPONS capable of wiping out entire civilizations. The Gravestone was one of these in fact with the added caveat of being a Starship as well (the only one of its kind).

@DarthFatcow wrote:
It's not an assumption, it was said by Lucas, lmfao :
From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.

Emphasis on as strong as the Emperor

Thanks for the reminder but see [2] above and come to terms with following: (1) Yoda's vision which show Anakin defeating Count Dooku but loosing to Palpatine; (2) Anakin's accomplishment of defeating Count Dooku having circumstances attached to it (refer back to QUOTE from Star Wars: Labyrinth of Evil and the follow-on duel on Invisible Hand is in sync with Palpatine's instructions); (3) Anakin's leap to TIER 9 was due to the Cheat (or the Force LSD) and resultant gains did not last (see [3] above); and (4) Anakin's 'raw power' cannot carry him in every situation and in every fight by itself (see [3] above).

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Being equally powerful as the most powerful Sith lord and superior to the most powerful Jedi who ever existed, is somehow not better than the accolades and feats the HoT has, lmao.

See above.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Anakin was also amongst the top 3 duelists of his time. Anakin also above people who scale above the HoT. Anakin was also equal to the most powerful Sith lord in history.


See above.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Yet again you choose to forget that the system was created by Nick and Lucas.

And its applicability is limited, particularly in cross-era comparisons.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
You know last I check animals didn't wield lightsabers.


Creatures vary much in size, strength, behavior, and their capacity to kill. Some are too big and vicious for normal living beings and would require a Force-user to handle each with all their might. And in some cases, groups of Force-users will do.

My statement was to inform following:

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Vaylin slaughtered THREE genetically enhanced Acklay beasts while next to each other without breaking a sweat on Nathema - the environment which hampered virtually 'any' Force-user to considerable effect.


Congratulations. You managed to prove that Vaylin is a more powerful force user and is stronger in the force than Obi Wan (albeit using a very funny argument).


Glad to see that. Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 1289255181

WE are getting somewhere.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
All aspects considered, Vaylin would be a high 8. Around RoTS Dooku.

Well, I am surprised you rated her this high which is commendable. I believe she is 9 but there is more to her anyways – her dueling moves incorporate elements of Forms (VI – V – IV) - a blend of Ataru acrobatics with Djem So overhand cleaves and finding it easy to incorporate Force powers in her dueling sequences. And her Force powers are on another level in comparison to Count Dooku who in turn could throw Anakin around which is apparent in their duel on Naboo. Vaylin is neither a Jedi and nor a Sith and her unorthodox dueling moves might puzzle Anakin and she have a good shot at overwhelming him with her Force powers anyways.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Yes. Valkorian was the most powerful force user, ever, in his own time. Him beating RoTS Sidious is already highly debatable.

Not really but this is a debate for another time.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
This proves she's a powerful force user, which I have never denied or argued against. Responding Valkorion's manipulation of the space-time continuum is literal chump change to either Sidious or Grandmaster Luke Skywalker.

Seriously? Vaylin could do that because she was Valkorion’s own child/creation and the most gifted one at that. Vaylin runs the Skywalker Gauntlet  - Page 2 4183286560

It is not possible to respond to manipulation of the space-time continuum unless the opposing Force-user understands these developments in great depth and have the necessary talents to do something about it. Palpatine could manipulate the space-time continuum by creating a Force Storm (Wormhole) but this was the extent of it. Luke Skywalker could Fold Space at most. Do you think Luke could prevent Palpatine from calling a Force Storm (Wormhole)? I doubt this. Valkorion is the only Force-user who demonstrated the capability to manipulate the space-time continuum in combat situations to his advantage. Bedlam Spirits could also do this but they are not tested to the same extent or the archives are incomplete.

You cannot assume and attribute all manner of talents and capabilities of other Force-users to Anakin, Palpatine and Luke as per your wishes. Valkorion and Vaylin demonstrated some talents and capabilities which were unique to them by and large.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Don't really see why Anakin can't replicate any of those feats, lol.

The Alliance Commander could not even though Valkorion helped shape his strength and develop his powers. Anakin could surprise in enabling environments but NATHEMA and BRAIN are the antithesis of enabling environments and constructs. Therefore, NO.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
And Anakin could hold back planetary atmospheric storms single handily.

Not really. Anakin prevented a Theta Storm from incinerating himself and a village caught in its path with Force Barrier and was described as becoming one with the storm shield as well as a living storm shield. Very impressive no doubt but Anakin have competition in this matter; an ancient Jedi Master Tott Doneeta who lived in the era of Exar Kun and prevented a Heat Storm from incinerating himself and a clan under his protection on Ryloth while they were on the move.

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Heat Storms were incredibly powerful and dangerous cyclones producing destructive winds approaching 500 KM per hour mark coupled with temperatures exceeding 300 Celcius mark. Heat Storms could last really long and destroy much in their path, and therefore, forced Rylothians to develop underground cities.

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This might surprise you – Jedi Master Tott wasn’t among the strongest of his time. Thon, Arca Jeth, Vodo-Siosk Baas, Odan-Urr, Ulic-Qel Droma and Nomi Sunrider were much bigger and prominent names at the time. And as I pointed out to you above, the Jedi Order (SWTOR) was more competent than ever before and Master Tott is a footnote in comparison to the most powerful Jedi in SWTOR times. Master Tykan was capable of flourishing in the WORST environments of the galaxy for instance (see [7] above) and still fell under the spell of Lord Vivicar and the legendary Jedi Consular overcame both in respective confrontations. Anakin is TOPPED by a long shot, my friend. Obi-Wan would be in disbelief to learn what some of the ancient Jedi could accomplish. Yoda’s hype is looking increasingly subjective while connecting the right dots.

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@DarthFatcow wrote:
A random Jedi or Sith in TOR times is definitely capable of holding back planetary atmospheric storms and TK'ing dreadnought ships and shit stomping someone like Count Dooku, who can casually throw around multiple 215 meter long cruisers. Gotcha.

See above.

From the two random Jedi who fought Darth Malgus on Aldeeran, one collapsed two buildings around him in an effort to bury him beneath tons of debris but Darth Malgus held a part of debris falling over him, blew it all apart, and leapt outside from the mountain of rubble – all of this when he was mortally wounded by Satele Shan earlier. Some try to argue that these buildings were struck and damaged earlier, but each is composed of incredibly durable substances (durasteel and/or duracrete) and collapsing any would require incredible proficiency in Telekinesis. Did you see skyscrapers of Taris for instance? Many of them stood strong even after planetary bombardment. As I have firmly established above, Jedi used to be of much higher quality in SWTOR times than in PT on average. Therefore, yes, tilting a Dreadnaught, Force pushing Count Dooku, and Force pushing big ships are the feats well within the capacity of a number of Jedi and Sith in SWTOR times.

Count Dooku Force pushed that big ship into a wall – he did not throw it around. There is mistake in the interpretation made by some. Actual size of this ship is not clearly established either.

Then he knew.

"This way!" he yelled, as the first vehicle suddenly flipped over. It would have crushed them if Obi-Wan hadn't dashed to the side with Anakin on his heels. He flattened himself against the wall as another vehicle moved, its jagged wing a lethal weapon, capable of slicing them to ribbons. A cruiser suddenly zoomed toward the wall, straight at them.

"Drop!" Anakin and Obi-Wan hit the floor, hugging the stones as the cruiser passed over them and smashed into the wall.
- Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown

Since this development is being conveyed from the perspective of the Jedi, the cruiser would be much taller than them and it felt like passing over them as it smashed into the wall. WE do not know which type it is – 215 meter length is not authenticated figure.

Count Dooku could do all that on Korriban – a planet much strong in the Dark Side. Count Dooku was more effective in worlds strong in the Dark Side including Vjun. This is impressive showing from him no doubt – his sheer hype should amount to something, right?

Aryn Leener Force pushed a TRAM encompassing SIX CARS in total towards some sharpshooters on Coruscant – a neutral environment. TRAMS are massive transports in real life and even bigger in Star Wars. WE see one in Corellia and it was really big even though it was a SINGLE CAR transport. Aryn is more than capable of replicating Count Dooku’s Telekinesis even in neutral environments and Darth Maglus blew her across the hall with a single blast of power in a duel when he was angry and wanted to end this duel on a short note, and he managed to. He was angry due to Eleena Daru becoming a liability for him. Palpatine recognized Darth Malgus as one of his most powerful predecessors – not the likes of Count Dooku, Darth Maul and Darth Vader. Darth Malgus had something to teach to Palpatine even – a technique which enabled Palpatine to develop Force Storms. Dew the math.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Why don't you find me a showing of Vaylin holding back a planetary atmospheric storms single handily, then I will 100% agree with you on that statement you just made.

Following SCALING chain will do: Vaylin >>> Arcann >>> the legendary Jedi Consular >>> Lord Vivicar (a being of terrifying power) >>> some of the most powerful Jedi Masters in the galaxy including Yuon Par whose strength was assessed to be incredible by Nomi Sunrider herself when consulted through the Noetikon of Light and Cin Tykan who could flourish in the worst environments of the galaxy >>> Tott Doneeta = Anakin Skywalker (TCW).

Vaylin could endure forces which atomized powerful Force-users....

I expect nothing less than 100% agreement from you NOW - be a man of your word.

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@DarthFatcow wrote:
It's not an "argument". For that matter it's not even up for debate. Anakin being mentally hindered on Mustafar is supported by the highest canonical source in Star Wars. You constantly ignoring those sources in favor of your own subjective POV on the Mustafar fight doesn't change that.


Thanks for the reminder but see [2] above and come to terms with following: (1) Yoda's vision which show Anakin defeating Count Dooku but loosing to Palpatine; (2) Anakin's accomplishment of defeating Count Dooku having circumstances attached to it (refer back to QUOTE from Star Wars: Labyrinth of Evil and the follow-on duel on Invisible Hand is in sync with Palpatine's instructions); (3) Anakin's leap to TIER 9 was due to the Cheat (or the Force LSD) and resultant gains did not last (see [3] above); and (4) Anakin's 'raw power' cannot carry him in every situation and in every fight by itself (see [3] above).

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Pretty sure being the chosen trumps that.

“Prophecies are dangerous things.” - Melisandre



Discovered as a slave on Tatooine by Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker had the potential to become one of the most powerful Jedi ever, and was believed by some to be the prophesied Chosen One who would bring balance to the Force. A hero of the Clone Wars, Anakin was caring and compassionate, but also had a fear of loss that would prove to be his downfall.

LINK: https://www.starwars.com/databank/anakin-skywalker

DISNEY is the BOSS now – they get to decide what is true and what is not. Don’t push your luck.

Anakin’s potential is ‘meaningless discussion’ because he never realized it. Vaylin surpassed him by a long shot in terms of ‘actualized powers’ but she did not get the opportunity to live up to her potential either. Whose potential is greater from the two – WE would never know. Vaylin was never administered a Midichlorian count test (one of the worst aspects of PT because a Jedi should know better). Revan was also noted to have incredible potential.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
And Anakin was equally as powerful as RoTS Sidious, per Lucas, the highest canon in Star Wars. Anakin was also above Yoda, the most powerful Jedi in history up to that point, also backed by G-Canon sources. Anakin also is capable of holding back planetary atmospheric storms.

This argument is moot.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
That's based on conjecture and nothing more, really.

Valkorion could do all that and he feared that Vaylin would surpass him one day.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
Buddy, your points haven't proved anything beyond that they contradict the highest canonical sources in SW.

See [2] above.

@DarthFatcow wrote:
I'm willing to do an SS on this, if you're interested.

You need to stop living in the past first and foremost.

How you respond to this post – will show whether you have the capacity to understand and absorb presented arguments on merit or you will continue to pull G-Canon Card and handwave all else that does not fit your fiction view.

I have given you SS level information in this response anyways - take this as a sign of respect from me in good faith because I rarely address somebody’s posts on this level. Take your time to go through my post in full – repeatedly. And enjoy your life while at it. No need to take much pressure.
Jedi_Jesus
Jedi_Jesus

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December 3rd 2020, 1:30 pm
Yeah Vaylin isnt clearing 5
TheNuisanceBird
TheNuisanceBird

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December 11th 2020, 12:31 am
Ok what the fuck is going on in here?

Stops at 5.

And AOTC Anakin is actually stated to be a 7.

I'd get in this but Fatcow and BreakofDawn have it covered.
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

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December 11th 2020, 1:20 am
@TheNuisanceBird wrote:Ok what the fuck is going on in here?

Stops at 5.

And AOTC Anakin is actually stated to be a 7.

I'd get in this but Fatcow and BreakofDawn have it covered.

They have covered nothing accept trying to pull the G-Canon card every now and then which is no longer valid consideration. Obi-Wan Kenobi defeated Darth Vader on Mustafar in a fair fight and he was more powerful than Darth Vader in Episode 4 as well.

Vaylin is far more powerful than both as I will establish soon enough.
TheNuisanceBird
TheNuisanceBird

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December 11th 2020, 6:04 pm
@S_W_LeGenD wrote:

They have covered nothing accept trying to pull the G-Canon card every now and then which is no longer valid consideration. Obi-Wan Kenobi defeated Darth Vader on Mustafar in a fair fight and he was more powerful than Darth Vader in Episode 4 as well.

Vaylin is far more powerful than both as I will establish soon enough.

Lol What? Ok sure G-Canon doesn't apply in things post 2012 but isn't Vaylin still Legends? I mean she's not canon right?

If Fatcow doesn't retaliate I'll get in this.

Zenwolf
Zenwolf
Level One
Level One

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December 11th 2020, 6:09 pm
@TheNuisanceBird wrote:
@S_W_LeGenD wrote:

They have covered nothing accept trying to pull the G-Canon card every now and then which is no longer valid consideration. Obi-Wan Kenobi defeated Darth Vader on Mustafar in a fair fight and he was more powerful than Darth Vader in Episode 4 as well.

Vaylin is far more powerful than both as I will establish soon enough.

Lol What? Ok sure G-Canon doesn't apply in things post 2012 but isn't Vaylin still Legends? I mean she's not canon right?

If Fatcow doesn't retaliate I'll get in this.


She is Legends yes.

Though thinking on it, G-Canon doesn't need to be focused on if discussing C-Canon. I mean even the authors didn't follow Lucas' word at various instances. Really his word would only apply to the movies at the very best, especially since he sees the EU as a separate thing from his movies which he has said more than once.

His word is more case by case basis if discussing C-Canon works. It's not complete.
TheNuisanceBird
TheNuisanceBird

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December 13th 2020, 12:03 pm
True but Anakin's ranking in ROTS by Lucas's word is very direct so going by pre Disney material I'd say Anakin being at least Sidious level is still valid.
Zenwolf
Zenwolf
Level One
Level One

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December 13th 2020, 12:16 pm
@TheNuisanceBird wrote:True but Anakin's ranking in ROTS by Lucas's word is very direct so going by pre Disney material I'd say Anakin being at least Sidious level is still valid.


Alright but is there anything within C-Canon material to support this other than Anakin’s raw power? If we were going by just the movies, sure it’s without real question since there didn’t really seem to be a huge gap between the characters. But C-Canon is a little different.
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

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December 13th 2020, 1:02 pm
@TheNuisanceBird wrote:True but Anakin's ranking in ROTS by Lucas's word is very direct so going by pre Disney material I'd say Anakin being at least Sidious level is still valid.

Canon policy is not a part of the lore but to shape the course of lore in regards to WHAT should be taken at face value and what should not be. G-Canon used to be a thing before the Canon-Legends split but this is no longer the case.

Episode 3 Film gives the impression that Obi-Wan Kenobi cannot handle Palpatine in a duel but he have a chance against his former apprentice Anakin Skywalker. Yoda experienced a Force vision indicating Anakin had grown to the extent of defeating Count Dooku but not Palpatine prior to events in Episode 3.

You may consider an author's statements to INFORM an argument but such statements are not necessarily in sync with published content. I recall some authors contradicting their own works in their independent statements. What shall WE do in this case?

The word 'strong' is open to interpretation. Raw power? Mastery? Physicals? Whatever the case, George Lucas have excused himself from the responsibilities of managing the Star Wars brand.


Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on December 13th 2020, 1:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
TheNuisanceBird
TheNuisanceBird

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December 14th 2020, 11:59 am
Ok so how much are we excluding Anakin's accolades and statements by? I feel like if we're going to nerf Anakin Forcecast style we should just use canon Anakin.
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