KOTOR Revan vs Karness Muur/Celeste Morne

DarthAnt66 wrote:@Vaelias: Recall that Revan defeated Malak on the Star Forge multiple times over after having fought through armies of Sith.

Also, Ostrander's Muur > Krayt quote is not canon and does not take precedence over Malak's infinitely greater handling of the Star Forge compared to the Exiles.

Ok so if that’s not canon Muur > VK still is

“But Emperor Krayt might no longer be the most powerful Sith lord in the galaxy. Will Cade and Celeste have another Sith to defeat... or join?”
—Legacy Vector

@Vaelias: Blurbs aren't binding, but I believe that may have been reposted on the official website and if so would be C-Canon.  

Although, again note that in the flesh, Karness Muur regarded the Star Map as the source of his power, his darkest secret, why the Exiles were more powerful than past fallen Jedi, etc. Meanwhile, Malak successfully overcame and harnessed the full potency of the Star Forge, even driving it to 300% capacity. It's sort of like Muur and the Exiles were dancing around a camp fire amazed by the lights whereas Malak was manipulating the California wildfires. There's just no comparison.

That is the strongest and most direct connection we have between the Exiles and Revan/Malak. Muur's spirit maybe being more powerful than Krayt doesn't change that. It's also possible that the unique conditions of the Muur Talisman allowed Muur's spirit to retain his full power, and Insider floats the possibility that Muur's spirit actually grew more powerful across the centuries, meaning a disconnect between spirit and physical Muur's powers and positioning in scaling chains is on the table.

Regardless of how you want to treat spirit Muur, physical Muur being below Malak is rather set in stone. Many sources also indicate that subsequent generations of the original Sith Empire, especially by the Golden Age of the Sith under Marka Ragnos and Naga Sadow, grew more powerful than the Exiles, too. 

Note that nothing binds Revan and Malak below the Banites, either. I think you might be underrating them. 

DarthAnt66 wrote:@Vaelias: Blurbs aren't binding, but I believe that may have been reposted on the official website and if so would be C-Canon.  

Although, again note that in the flesh, Karness Muur regarded the Star Map as the source of his power, his darkest secret, why the Exiles were more powerful than past fallen Jedi, etc. Meanwhile, Malak successfully overcame and harnessed the full potency of the Star Forge, even driving it to 300% capacity. It's sort of like Muur and the Exiles were dancing around a camp fire amazed by the lights whereas Malak was manipulating the California wildfires. There's just no comparison.

That is the strongest and most direct connection we have between the Exiles and Revan/Malak. Muur's spirit maybe being more powerful than Krayt doesn't change that. It's also possible that the unique conditions of the Muur Talisman allowed Muur's spirit to retain his full power, and Insider floats the possibility that Muur's spirit actually grew more powerful across the centuries, meaning a disconnect between spirit and physical Muur's powers and positioning in scaling chains is on the table.

Regardless of how you want to treat spirit Muur, physical Muur being below Malak is rather set in stone. Many sources also indicate that subsequent generations of the original Sith Empire, especially by the Golden Age of the Sith under Marka Ragnos and Naga Sadow, grew more powerful than the Exiles, too. 

Note that nothing binds Revan and Malak below the Banites, either. I think you might be underrating them. 

I definitely understand what your saying but then my argument is also still valid unless we are saying that Vong Krayt is a complete bitch, but he can’t be cos he’s definitely surpassed Kenobi by the time he Became Krayt which should technically put him around Vader level
Meaning that the Exiles are above Vader level with a bunch more sith above that with significant power gaps all over the place if not Vader level then certainly above Kenobi Novel Kenobi level which is pretty dang high, it definitely puts VK above Maul who has accolades placing him up really high, it just seems weird is all...

And then you’ve got the quote stating that Bane is more powerful than any sith that came before him, which was referring to bane after he got Revans Holocron, unless you wanna hold bane above everyone bar Kun and Vitiate as a lot of their knowledge died with them. Which I could actually see making sense considering his feats.

I think I may underrate them a bit but I certainly wouldn’t hold them above Bane and Murr scales above bane
Do u c what I mean?

@Vaelias: The Bane quote was written in-universe by New Republic historians, plus the publisher stated Revan and co. were exempt from the quote, so it's not binding. If it were from an out-of-universe, in-universe omniscient, or even a credible in-universe limited source then that would be a different story, but New Republic historians know nothing about the KOTOR or SWTOR era explicitly. So, it's easily possible, and frankly very likely per multiple metrics, that Revan and Malak are above Bane.

Moreover, note how you're applying that quote. If Bane is the most powerful Sith ever, he's more powerful than Kun and Muur, too. They aren't exempt from that quote because other quotes or scaling positions maybe put them above Bane. What happens there is a clash of sources that needs to be untangled and analyzed.  

Also, given spirit Muur is possibly above physical Muur as outlined in my last post, I'm not sure you can throw the Exile collective into other era scaling chains.

To expand on that a bit more: Muur is an incredibly messy character to rank. The KOTOR writers clearly intended him to be dirt compared to Revan and Malak, but the Dark Horse writers explicitly put him with Palpatine as an all-time dark side baddie. KOTOR codified their low opinion of the Exiles through Ajunta Pall's Star Map dialogue, and Purge and Legacy codified their high opinion of the Exiles through Vader sincerely believing him and Muur could beat Palpatine and the Krayt+ blurb sneaking on the official website. Physical Muur is also constrained by other sources, like the Sith Empire growing more powerful than the Exiles, Vitiate being the most powerful Sith ever as of SWTOR, and Palpatine being the most powerful Sith ever as of ROTS. Bringing all the evidence together and working within all the different constraints, what I think you will most reasonably have is physical Muur being far beneath most famous ancient Sith but spirit Muur being far more powerful and perhaps somehow comparable to Palpatine and Krayt, which is fortunately quasi-supported by Insider suggesting that sprit Muur may have grown more powerful across the centuries.
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Insider never says he grew more powerful, just more dangerous through going from inert to an active player.

If you're applying Star Map logic then Muur in his physical prime is obviously stronger given his spirit lacks his main source of power. Not to mention Ostrander himself says that Muur in full control of a body could 'truly live again'. Which is an obvious nod to physical Muur > spirit Muur.

My point isn't predicated on the Insider quote. Rather, like I said, I'm looking at all the different constraints for Muur:

- Weaker than Sadow in the flesh
- Far weaker than Malak in the flesh
- Far weaker than SWTOR Vitiate in the flesh
- Far weaker than ROTS Palpatine in the flesh
- Able to defeat DT Palpatine with DT Vader as a spirit
- Likely more powerful than Vong Krayt as a spirit

And observing the best way that all fits together is bifurcation between flesh and spirit and letting spirit be far more powerful.

It just so happens that Insider has a line stating Muur grows more dangerous across the centuries, which can easily be interpreted to mean other things in a vacuum, but now can help give further out-of-universe credence to this split. Of course, another alternative is arguing A'Sharad was never near Obi-Wan and thus Vong Krayt isn't necessarily either, and that Vader's just totally wrong about spirit Muur's powers, yielding Palpatine > Vitiate > Malak > Muur > Krayt. I don't have a problem with you arguing that, but I have no interest in diving into the Hett minefield and also think that chain perhaps unfairly distorts Dark Horse's stance of Palpatine ~ Krayt ~ Muur. Splitting flesh and spirit best captures the distinctively different intent behind KOTOR/SWTOR/PT's low take on physical Muur and Purge/Legacy's high take on spirit Muur.

Well, a better argument is that Kenobi just isn't on par at all with his ROTS self and even so, as soon as Kenobi went for lethal intent with the threat against Luke, Hett got one-shotted. So Hett wasn't even in the same library as ROTS Kenobi, nevermind on the same page.

I also think Vader's POV is pretty drastically inflated. We know he's one-shottable against Palpatine. We also know that when he gets a more accurate estimation of Palpatine's powers he absolutely gives up all hope of ever overthrowing him. So yeah, Vader's not a great estimation of the powers of Palpatine. Also, Muur is literally feeding his ego so he'll take the talisman as he thinks this over, so he's even less reliable.

Like I said, if you want to just throw Muur and Krayt under the bus, I think that works consistently (at least within the context here) and reduces the need to force a reconcile through splitting Muur between flesh and spirit. If you want to try to thrust Krayt deep in the prequel trilogy scaling chains like Vaelias was considering, though, a bifurcation seems necessary, since otherwise you have Murr simultaneously above and below Malak, Sadow, the Voice, etc. due to clashing intents.

LadyKulvax wrote:Well, a better argument is that Kenobi just isn't on par at all with his ROTS self and even so, as soon as Kenobi went for lethal intent with the threat against Luke, Hett got one-shotted. So Hett wasn't even in the same library as ROTS Kenobi, nevermind on the same page.

I also think Vader's POV is pretty drastically inflated. We know he's one-shottable against Palpatine. We also know that when he gets a more accurate estimation of Palpatine's powers he absolutely gives up all hope of ever overthrowing him. So yeah, Vader's not a great estimation of the powers of Palpatine. Also, Muur is literally feeding his ego so he'll take the talisman as he thinks this over, so he's even less reliable.

Doesn’t it look pretty likely that Kenobi had grown since then given that in the Kenobi Novel we literally see him casually moving small mountains

DarthAnt66 wrote:@Vaelias: The Bane quote was written in-universe by New Republic historians, plus the publisher stated Revan and co. were exempt from the quote, so it's not binding. If it were from an out-of-universe, in-universe omniscient, or even a credible in-universe limited source then that would be a different story, but New Republic historians know nothing about the KOTOR or SWTOR era explicitly. So, it's easily possible, and frankly very likely per multiple metrics, that Revan and Malak are above Bane.

Moreover, note how you're applying that quote. If Bane is the most powerful Sith ever, he's more powerful than Kun and Muur, too. They aren't exempt from that quote because other quotes or scaling positions maybe put them above Bane. What happens there is a clash of sources that needs to be untangled and analyzed.  

Also, given spirit Muur is possibly above physical Muur as outlined in my last post, I'm not sure you can throw the Exile collective into other era scaling chains.

Thanks for clearing that up, If I was applying the quote I wouldn’t put Bane above Kun or Vitiate as its stated that a lot of their knowledge died with them.

We must be assuming that Krayts power grew insanely more powerful after his rebirth as i always had Krayt as up there with Palpatine but it looks as if Vong Krayt isn’t that powerful by all this

Vaelias wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:Well, a better argument is that Kenobi just isn't on par at all with his ROTS self and even so, as soon as Kenobi went for lethal intent with the threat against Luke, Hett got one-shotted. So Hett wasn't even in the same library as ROTS Kenobi, nevermind on the same page.

I also think Vader's POV is pretty drastically inflated. We know he's one-shottable against Palpatine. We also know that when he gets a more accurate estimation of Palpatine's powers he absolutely gives up all hope of ever overthrowing him. So yeah, Vader's not a great estimation of the powers of Palpatine. Also, Muur is literally feeding his ego so he'll take the talisman as he thinks this over, so he's even less reliable.

Doesn’t it look pretty likely that Kenobi had grown since then given that in the Kenobi Novel we literally see him casually moving small mountains

In ROTS he's portrayed as pretty heavily close to Vader on Mustafar which is infinitely more impressive than mountain TK. So not really.

LadyKulvax wrote:

Vaelias wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:Well, a better argument is that Kenobi just isn't on par at all with his ROTS self and even so, as soon as Kenobi went for lethal intent with the threat against Luke, Hett got one-shotted. So Hett wasn't even in the same library as ROTS Kenobi, nevermind on the same page.

I also think Vader's POV is pretty drastically inflated. We know he's one-shottable against Palpatine. We also know that when he gets a more accurate estimation of Palpatine's powers he absolutely gives up all hope of ever overthrowing him. So yeah, Vader's not a great estimation of the powers of Palpatine. Also, Muur is literally feeding his ego so he'll take the talisman as he thinks this over, so he's even less reliable.

Doesn’t it look pretty likely that Kenobi had grown since then given that in the Kenobi Novel we literally see him casually moving small mountains

In ROTS he's portrayed as pretty heavily close to Vader on Mustafar which is infinitely more impressive than mountain TK. So not really.

True but there are circumstances to that tho aren’t there as Vader was off balance with his emotions and shit, also we’ve never seen Kenobi do anything near that magnitude before and theirs no reason for him to become weaker at least for the first years in his exile

You can argue about Vader's mental state but all the same applies to Kenobi and then some.

LadyKulvax wrote:You can argue about Vader's mental state but all the same  applies to Kenobi and then some.

True.
But either way why would Kenobi have lost power so early on in his exile and why would he have stopped growing in the force

In ROTS he's been constantly fighting a war, almost non-stop. By the time he fights Hett, he's been spending years doing some light training. There's an obvious drop off. There's also a continuous growth in the imbalance that directly effects the light side of the Force as a whole.

LadyKulvax wrote:In ROTS he's been constantly fighting a war, almost non-stop. By the time he fights Hett, he's been spending years doing some light training. There's an obvious drop off. There's also a continuous growth in the imbalance that directly effects the light side of the Force as a whole.

Ahhh ok thanks for clearing that up
I think the TK feat is still huge so if he has lost strength he hasn’t lost much it’s at least an indication of that

@DarthAnt66 Thanks for clarifying my explanation with Vaelias.

@Vaelias It didn't seems that I need to respond to your argument.