KOTOR Revan vs Karness Muur/Celeste Morne

Celeste has accepted Karness into her heart. Legacy versions of both.

Location:Star Forge (no amps)

revan dies as always

CuckedCurry wrote:Celeste has accepted Karness into her heart. Legacy versions of both.

Location:Star Forge (no amps)

Revan gets fucked Karness Muur is >>>> Vong Krayt who could also smash Revan

Murr wins

I'm siding with Revan. Let me just explain the logic behind this. 

Karness Muur was one of the Exiled. We know that all of the Exiled have been corrupted by fragment of the Star Forge/Rakatan DS tech.
In the same time, we also known that Darth Malak was able to fully mastered the Star Forge and even make it work at 300% of its potential.

Based on this we should have something like: Malak >>> Exiled

In addition to this we have that KotOR Revan while on the SF, after defeating an army of powerful foes was able to defeat a SF amp Malak. Thus having: KotOR Revan > SF amped Malak.

As a result we have this scaling chain:

KotOR Revan > SF amped Malak >> Base Malak >>> Exiled.

Even if I give you that Karness Muur coud have grown incredibly in power I genuinely ask anyone siding with Muur: what make you think that this growth was sufficient to become more powerful than Revan ?

xolthol wrote:I'm siding with Revan. Let me just explain the logic behind this. 

Karness Muur was one of the Exiled. We know that all of the Exiled have been corrupted by fragment of the Star Forge/Rakatan DS tech.
In the same time, we also known that Darth Malak was able to fully mastered the Star Forge and even make it work at 300% of its potential.

Based on this we should have something like: Malak >>> Exiled

In addition to this we have that KotOR Revan while on the SF, after defeating an army of powerful foes was able to defeat a SF amp Malak. Thus having: KotOR Revan > SF amped Malak.

As a result we have this scaling chain:

KotOR Revan > SF amped Malak >> Base Malak >>> Exiled.

Even if I give you that Karness Muur coud have grown incredibly in power I genuinely ask anyone siding with Muur: what make you think that this growth was sufficient to become more powerful than Revan ?

“The real question the readers should be asking is not whether Celeste Survives the last issue of “Vector” but it’s Karness Muur does. If that happens, a very powerful sith - perhaps stronger than any other we’ve seen thus far in “Legacy”- will be loose in the Galaxy. That would not be a good thing”

That quotes from the creator of legacy, this quote is in reference to sport Karness Muur who is significantly weaker than Karness in life, meaning that Living Karness is a fair amount above Vong Krayt whos much more powerful than Darth Revan

@Vaelias

Some questions:

why is Vong Krayt "much more powerful than Revan" ?

The quote uses the word "perhaps" so why are you so sure that Muur is stronger than Krayt ?

If you defend that Physical Muur >> Spirit Muur can you proove my argumentation wrong or you just destroy your own case ?

Well, if you take Hett relativity with Post-ROTS Kenobi with any seriousness then he scales from an essentially Yoda-level Jedi Master (at least Kenobi as he is on Mustafar). That alone would make it essentially impossible for Pall to be correct and the Star Forge scaling to be correct also. It'd make Revan(KotOR) literally Grand Master Luke Skywalker level. Good luck arguing a Revan inferior to the one that got beaten solidly by Vitiate is GM Luke tier.

BUT, again, that's if you can argue that Hett was genuinely on par with Kenobi. Not many people here buy that.

As far as Muur goes, the mere fact that he's possibly > Krayt by himself goes to show that he's on par with Krayt's power. Taking into account what Pall says about the Exiles all using the Star Map as their source of power then naturally spirit Muur is much weaker.

I personaly don't give a shit about the theory that Hett is in the same league that Post-ROTS Kenobi.

Revan, decent fight at best

I personally don't give a shit about the theory that ROTS Kenobi is in the same league as Yoda.

I also personally don't give a shit about the theory that author quotes matter on specific power levels. I only care about them clarifying the intent behind what they wrote in-continuity, and in this case, what was actually written within the story doesn't necessitate Muur ~ Vong Krayt (the fight was very circumstantial).

xolthol wrote:I personaly don't give a shit about the theory that Hett is in the same league that Post-ROTS Kenobi.

You can’t just “not give a Shit” about something that the argument is based upon cos like it or not it’s fact that Hett is around Kenobis level he then grew between them and Vong Krayt so Vong Krayt is definitely > ROTS Kenobi and if spirit Muur is “perhaps > Krayt” then he’s deffo on the same level which means that Living Muur is definitely > VK. Hett could arguably beat Darth Revan if he’s on ROTS Kenobi Level

I love how Muur can simultaneously wreck Krayt, Cade, Maladi, Azelyn Rae and Shado Vao:



And the publisher's summary, Insider and Ostrander all support the idea that Muur's spirit could single-handedly be > Krayt:

Legacy 31: Vector: Part 12 wrote:But Emperor Krayt might no longer be the most powerful Sith lord in the galaxy. Will Cade and Celeste have another Sith to defeat... or join?

Insider #113 wrote:On Had Abbadon, in the Deep Core, Krayt confronted Skywalker a second time. But a third Force-user possessed powers that outshone them both. Karness Muur, an ancient Sith spirit, blasted Krayt with overpowering energy, sending him over a cliff to the rocks below.

But nah, circumstantial.

Bro that insider quote is the final nail in Krayt’s coffin 

CuckedCurry wrote:Bro that insider quote is the final nail in Krayt’s coffin 

Who can Revan even beat?

Vaelias wrote:
You can’t just “not give a Shit” about something that the argument is based upon cos like it or not it’s fact that Hett is around Kenobis level he then grew between them and Vong Krayt so Vong Krayt is definitely > ROTS Kenobi and if spirit Muur is “perhaps > Krayt” then he’s deffo on the same level which means that Living Muur is definitely > VK. Hett could arguably beat Darth Revan if he’s on ROTS Kenobi Level

Can you prove that RoTS Kenobi > KotOR Revan ? Because I personaly don't know any argument in favor of it.

Can you prove that post-RoTS Kenobi (that Hett faced) is similar to RotS Kenobi?
Can you prove that Hett and post-RotS Kenobi are in the same league?
Can you prove that Hett growth allo him to become more powerful than the Kenobi he faced?

And also: CAN YOU PLEASE PROVE MY SCALING WRONG ? If not I have no reason to change my mind

[quote="CuckedCurry"]

Xolthol wrote:

Can you prove that RoTS Kenobi > KotOR Revan ? Because I personaly don't know any argument in favor of it.

There is no argument because it is a fact already.

CuckedCurry wrote:Bro that insider quote is the final nail in Krayt’s coffin 

That is Vong Krayt Keep in mind, I think Reborn Krayt is still > Muur

Hard to pin down spirit Muur due to Ostrander and Duuresma somehow thinking he's with Palpatine, but Revan atomizes physical Muur.

xolthol wrote:

Vaelias wrote:
You can’t just “not give a Shit” about something that the argument is based upon cos like it or not it’s fact that Hett is around Kenobis level he then grew between them and Vong Krayt so Vong Krayt is definitely > ROTS Kenobi and if spirit Muur is “perhaps > Krayt” then he’s deffo on the same level which means that Living Muur is definitely > VK. Hett could arguably beat Darth Revan if he’s on ROTS Kenobi Level

Can you prove that RoTS Kenobi > KotOR Revan ? Because I personaly don't know any argument in favor of it.

Can you prove that post-RoTS Kenobi (that Hett faced) is similar to RotS Kenobi?
Can you prove that Hett and post-RotS Kenobi are in the same league?
Can you prove that Hett growth allo him to become more powerful than the Kenobi he faced?

And also: CAN YOU PLEASE PROVE MY SCALING WRONG ? If not I have no reason to change my mind

Well for one what makes Revan so good? Obiwan is stated to be one of the best Jedi in the order, what makes Revan as of KOTOR even around that level, especially given that Revans best feats are killing non force sensitive mandalorians, on the other hand Kenobi was bested General Grievous who’s close to on par with Dooku as a duelist who is on Mace Windus level who is on Sheevs level. And I know there’s circumstances surrounding the battle of the heroes but Obiwan still did insanely well in that fight against MFV who is on par with ROTS Sidious.
Also worth noting that Grievous defeated 7 Jedi on Hypori, 5 at the same time. Included Those 5 are Ki-Adi Mundi, Shaak Ti, Aayla Secura, and K’Kruhk, all some of the best of the council, and then Kenobi beats Grievous
He was also credited with being the best Saresu practitioners of all time
Kenobi also out dueled Maul and Savage whilst using two lightsabers, a technique that he doesn’t even use, and Maul is one of the top Duelists, definitely better than Revan as he scales waaaay above him, Revan literally scales below the Banite line

“Darth Bane had gained more knowledge and mastery of sith techniques and power than anyone who had came before him”

This is specifically referring to bane after he acquired Revans holocron

So we have Revan below Bane and Obiwan up there contending with Tyranus and Vader both whom scale far above Bane and therefore Revan. Meaning that ROTS Kenobi is undoubtably >>> KOTOR Revan

And the Version of Kenobi that fought Hett was undoubtably more powerful than ROTS Kenobi

In the Kenobi Novel we literally see Kenobi casually move “ a long row” of giant Tatooine rock pillars

“Except the rock pillars were too tall for any man to scale”

“Which rose high enough to blot out even the midday suns”

An yeh he moved all those with casual ease
This concludes that obiwan kept on growing after ROTS by a significant degree. At least for a good while
So the Kenobi that fought hett is more powerful than the Kenobi that fought MFV.

Kenobi is definitely more powerful than Hett here, but the question was is Vong Krayt more powerful than Kenobi and yes he definitely is, Hett contended really well with Kenobi and even landed a few hits meaning that he’s definitely approaching Kenobis level, we know that after turning to the dark side people grow in power rapidly especially former Jedi, look at Kun or Dooku for example Dooku literally caught up to Yoda After turning to the dark side
Vong Krayt was also stated to be the dark counterpart of GM Luke.

“Krayt perfected his combat techniques over many decades and his skills with telekinesis and Sith lightning far outstripped those of any Sith of his era.”

—Star Wars Insider #113

This puts Krayt above Darth Caedus and Darish Vol as of that time

“It was presumed that Hett had died during the execution of Order 66. In reality, he had taken the destruction of the Jedi Order to give in to and explore his emotions. Over time, he gained a great deal of strength in the Force, much of which came from collections of Sith lore he discovered in his travels to Korriban. Following the guidance found in an ancient Sith holocron, he eventually gave himself over to the power of the dark side, and became the Dark Lord known as Darth Krayt, a name honoring one of Tatooine’s most formidable predators.”

—The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

And this states he’s grown much stronger since becoming Darth Krayt
And him being more powerful than Caedus and Vol at that time makes Vong Krayt > Kenobi Definitely

You said

“Even if I give you that Karness Muur coud have grown incredibly in power I genuinely ask anyone siding with Muur: what make you think that this growth was sufficient to become more powerful than Revan ?”

Well the fact he was stated to be more powerful than Darth Krayt as a spirit which was a fraction of his real power, this clearly indicates that he grew much more powerful.

Also SF Malak is easily >>> Revan

Malak is stated numerous times to be the strongest

"You know the name? Malak is the strongest of us, and the strongest always rules."
―Yuthura Ban (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic)

I’m pretty sure direct statements and multiple quotes and feats takes precedent over how the exiles handled the star forge vs how Malak did

@Vaelias: Recall that Revan defeated Malak on the Star Forge multiple times over after having fought through armies of Sith.

Also, Ostrander's Muur > Krayt quote is not canon and does not take precedence over Malak's infinitely greater handling of the Star Forge compared to the Exiles.