SS - Darth Plagueis (Meatpants) vs Galen Marek (ArkhamAsylum3)

Hellfire, Tor has risen vastly in your absence.

IdrisianGraecus wrote:Hellfire, Tor has risen vastly in your absence.

How so?

Scourge is no longer fodder, he’s TPM kenobi level. Kun isn’t shite either

@BreakofDawn @HellfireUnit @lorenzo.r.2nd @xolthol

To clarify, this post is mine but it is incomplete. I posted the unfinished version on the Slorg Discord server, and someone thought it'd be highly amusing to release it on the forum under my name. Rest assured the post has some serious editing needed and will be finished soon.

@The Apprentice Ok thanks for the explanation

Fair post from HP.

The post should be up soon, just got to transfer and source.

dude... starkiller annihilates plagueis tbh

1) Introduction

Alright, let’s begin. My goal throughout this post is to establish that:

A) Galen is a mega prodigy with Luke Skywalker tier potential whose decade and a half of ruthless training allowed him to perform some of the best raw power feats in the mythos.

B) Plagueis explicitly isn’t comparable to post-boost TPM Sidious, there are circumstances to Sidious’s fear of him.

C) Sidious did not hit his full potential as of TPM - he grew between then and ROTS - the conclusion that he did is based solely on an obviously hyperbolic commonly used English phrase.

D) What I established in my first post isn’t Galen’s best, his clone in TFU 2 is superior and performed even more insane feats than the original.

2) Performance against Sidious

I originally didn’t want to use this argument, so I could see what I could do with Galen’s other feats, but because of the half a dozen comparisons you drew between Galen and Sidious in your post, I, unfortunately, have no choice.

At the end of The Force Unleashed, Galen performs quite possibly his best feat, defending against Sidious’s Lightning for 20-30 seconds - depending on which version of the game you use. The feat as shown in the game is already impressive, but the novel tells us more:

The Force Unleashed Novelization wrote:Without hesitation, he stepped between Kota and the Emperor, taking the full brunt of the Sith lightning into his own body.

The pain was incredible, searing every nerve back to its individual cells, skewering each of them on white-hot needles. He had never before felt anything like this. He wanted to recoil from the source, to curl into a ball and let unconsciousness take the pain away, but somehow he stayed standing, seeing the world through a crackling blue light, and even took a step toward the Emperor.

"Go!" he hissed at Kota. "Hurry!"

The general hesitated only for a moment. He, too, had seen a glimpse of the future, the apprentice remembered. He knew that it came down to a simple choice: him and the Rebels or the apprentice and darkness forever. Gathering up the Rebels, Kola ushered them toward the descending ship.

Another staggering, painful step and the Emperor was within the apprentice's reach. With shaking fingers, he took the old man's bony shoulders in his hands and gripped them tight. The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations. The Emperor tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain. Darkness threatened to envelop the apprentice's mind, but he clutched to consciousness with feverish will. He had to see this through. He had to.

From the passage in the novelization, I made two key observations:

1. Sidious was placed into a state of “desperation” by Galen advancing on him, which he is actively noted to be “fuelling” his lightning with. This not only shows Sidious was clearly going all out but also displays how Galen put Sidious into a state where he lost hope in his own victory, clearly highlighting Galen’s display as incredibly impressive. Moreover, if we’re going to perform insane over-analysis - which you have no right to berate me for given that your opener was essentially comprised of hyper-analysing obviously non-literal statements - we can look at the CollinsDictionary definition of the word “desperation”:

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/desperation[/mention] wrote:Desperation is the feeling that you have when you are in such a bad situation that you will try anything to change it.

What would “anything” include? Hmmm, let me think. Surely not drawing on power beyond his biological Force potential (if I’m to accept your opening argument as legitimate)? So, we’ve essentially got Galen defending against energies massively more potent than those Plagueis can unleash - even if I agree Sidious’s biological Force Potential is capped circa TPM - and you think he has a shot against Galen? That’s some suspect insight.

2. The Lightning Galen was defending against caused Sidious to experience “lascivious pain” indicating it breached his own defences, and while Galen wasn’t fully defending against the Lightning, mitigating the effect of an attack which bypassed Palpatine’s barrier is incredibly impressive.

This point is relevant to previous arguments - and will also assist with my rebuttals to you - but honestly serves as a good indicator of Galen’s power by itself.

Furthermore, given that you believe Galen’s base power is potentially leagues below his TK - you seem to think it’s plausible Vader rivals SK in base power yet his TK can literally ragdoll him - you apparently think that SK can massively outdo the power needed to perform this feat with his Telekinesis, meaning if SK blasts Plagueis with TK, I see no reason why you would argue against the fact that Plagueis would more than likely be pulverized like the Starkiller clones or atomised like The Salvation.

3) Galen’s Potential

A) Sidious

MP put shade on Witwer’s credibility repeatedly throughout his post, without actually going into any detail on why Witwer is an unreliable source. There are 2 reasons why Witwer’s statements have merit:

1) They demonstrate a clear narrative intent that the game/novels were written with.

2) His statements are published in an official SW magazine meaning they’re accepted into the continuity.

Due to premise 1, any perceived inconsistencies between Witwer’s statements and the primary material are probably just that, perceptions. Absolutely nothing MP has posted regarding Galen’s potential has a shred of credibility, because he’s making arguments against what the creators have outlined. Now, onto specific rebuttals regarding the Oneness blast feat:

This is true given the fact that at the end of TFU Galen “manifests his true potential by unleashing the Force.”, whilst physically linked to Sidious (Link).

This is a lol-worthy interpretation, absolutely nowhere does the quote even mention Galen’s Oneness blast. The full context is provided below:

(The roleplaying game statistics below represent Vader's protégé fairly early in his apprenticeship, before he manifests his true potential by unleashing the Force.)

The quote is attempting to provide a timeframe for the segment of the game it’s referring to Galen in, which means it can’t possibly be referring to the time where Galen died lmao. Your interpretation of the quote is literally:

“These stats represent Galen fairly on in his apprenticeship, before he died.”

The second part is totally irrelevant - a no-brainer - and doesn’t help elaborate on the first point. The more realistic, non-hyper literal interpretation - where we don’t conclude “true potential” is literally referring to his full Force Potential - is that it’s referring to Galen’s development throughout the novel (outlined in my first post) wherein he finally unleashes his raw power, hence the terminology “true potential.” That’s a much more plausible interpretation and helps to back up the prior statement from the quote. As an aside - to back up my previous point - this statement is not dissimilar to quotes on Vaylin’s growth when Vitiate was locked away on Yavin IV:

When most of the Emperor's power was locked away on Yavin 4, he was no longer able to hide Vaylin's strength from her, and she finally got a taste of her full capabilities.

Vaylin was obviously nowhere close to her “full capabilities” as of the start of KOTFE - she grows consistently throughout it and KOTET. You wouldn’t apply the “full potential” standard to Vaylin (given that it’s totally wrong), so why should you apply it to Starkiller?

The Emperor was in the virtual epicentre of the blast radius and was not affected by the full potency of Galen’s potential.

Right, but he tanked the barest fraction of the power of the blast as it was omnidirectional. Moreover, given that Sidious was in “desperation” just prior, and Marek has just become considerably more powerful, I’d say it’s not unreasonable to assume that Sidious drew beyond his biological Force Potential if I accept your stance on that - which I’m not saying that I am, it’s just an aside. Finally, Sidious was actually affected by Galen’s Oneness blast, we can see he’s burnt in the comic (1).

All the cells in his body went into shock, "He felt ripped apart by the energy that had flowed through him. Every cell was in shock; every fiber shook."

And this proves he hit his full potential how exactly?

Finally, it’s stated that “He was no match for Palpatine...” (Link).

Why are we assuming that these candy bar quotes refer to Oneness Marek, and not base Marek? The wording doesn’t preclude them from doing so.

So what we have for Galen’s potential being comparable to that of Sidious or Luke is:

The testimony of Galen's voice actor, who also says that in TFUIII Vader would have dominated Starkiller;

There’s a fundamental difference between unpublished/unofficial quotes from Witwer on a game that was never released, and published/official quotes from Witwer clarifying the intent of material that was released.

To summarise this whole section:

-Galen wasn’t in his full potential when entering Oneness.

-Sidious took the barest fraction of Oneness Galen’s power.

-Galen’s Oneness blast did damage Sidious as can be seen in the comic.

-There’s no reason to doubt the authenticity of Witwer’s statements, they reflect a clear narrative intent and are accepted into continuity.

B) Early Novel Galen vs Vader

Since author/voice actor quotes are perfectly acceptable for you, let’s consider developer statements regarding Vader during the first mission of the game.

A few years after ROTS, Vader is “well above” Galen in power as we see him at the start of the game. This is around when Vader got his suit, invalidating about half of your post that you used to wank Galen’s training during well over a decade. In other words: you were waffling and trying to wank start of game Galen who is actually - according to your criteria of using outside authorities - still well inferior to early suit Vader.

Did you miss the part where I basically admitted Galen’s applicable power is sh*t? The point wasn’t to hype up Early-Game Galen who lacks any control of his powers, but rather to hype up End-Game Galen who finally gains control of the power he’s built up over 15 years of rigorous training. Despite constantly mocking my first post on Discord you seem to have missed a few key details.

C) Galen vs Luke: Vader Comparisons

You argue here that Galen broke his conditioning on Raxus Prime:

Galen is free of his master’s conditioning on Raxus Prime, and thus also in his confrontation with Vader. Despite this and a further boost in power during the duel, he still isn’t more powerful than Vader. At the onset, the duel is relatively even, “Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defences… The apprentice vowed not to give him one. He whirled and danced around his Master's defences, testing them to their limits.” Both men are struggling to gain an advantage over the other.

It’s amusing to see how you blatantly omitted the whole passage in favour of a single citation to favour Vader. The rest of the passage clarifies the context which allowed Vader to compete, that being that Galen doesn’t understand how to kill without drawing on his rage/desire for revenge (he only does so at the end of the fight) which he’s explicitly resisting in this instance, ergo he’s not fighting at his best - when he does he dominates Vader (2) - so trying to dismiss his insane potential based on comparisons to Luke in ESB, is completely and totally pointless.

The Force Unleashed Novelization wrote:The apprentice felt the wild, joyous energies of the dark side flowing through him and he resisted its call, seeking a better way to finish the job.

The Force Unleashed Novelization wrote:Glancing over Darth Vader's shoulder, he saw the Emperor watching the duel, his face screwed up in malevolent delight. And the apprentice understood. A better way to kill. . .

Not out of hatred. Whatever lay beneath that black mask, it wasn't beauty or happiness. Only ugliness and pain would hide itself away for so long. Hatred would not be enough to turn the tables on Darth Vader.

To add to the above, Vader and Galen don’t even fight equally, Galen is notably faster and more skilled, he “tests Vader’s defences to their limits”, while blocking Vader’s attacks with “elegant precision” and nearly kills Vader in the opening exchange of their duel. Vader being able to kill him if given an opening doesn’t illustrate he’s comparable, just that he’s a good fighter, which isn’t in dispute.

In TFU 2 Starkiller’s clone is more powerful and knows more Force abilities than TFU1 Starkiller whilst also retaining the original's fighting skills, yet is incapable of defeating Vader via sabers or power in the Force until he takes advantage of a wound inflicted by Juno on Vader’s chest panel (Link). Until that point, Galen was unable to gain an edge against Vader, and admits he the best he could do is create a stalemate, "Blow after blow rained on him, forcing him back. There had to be a way to free himself and avenge Juno at the same time... but a stalemate seemed unavoidable."

Citing this fight is useless because Starkiller was exhausted when he fought Vader - at his peak, he’d decimate him as will be elaborated on in the final segment of my post regarding Galen’s TFU 2 feats. Then there’s also the matter of Vader specifically gearing his fighting style to defending against Starkiller:

The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization wrote:Vader himself fought more cautiously than he had on the Death Star, the last time they had dueled in earnest. His armor seemed to have improved, too; it was less vulnerable to lightning than it had been just days before.

The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization wrote:Vader's defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller's, every time. He may have defeated Vader before, but Vader had learned from that mistake. He knew the measure of his former apprentice now.

Even discounting the circumstances, your claim that Vader stonewalled Starkiller is still emphatically false, Galen hits Vader with Force Lightning earlier in the duel and would have struck him down if not for a timely vision of Juno’s death:

The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization wrote:But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it.

The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike.

Juno lying limp in his arms.

The vision struck him as powerfully as a physical blow. When he tried to push it aside, it returned with even more power.

Juno-dead.

He reeled in shock. Was this what would happen if he killed Vader? He had no choice but to believe so. But if he didn't kill Vader, how would he ever get to her?

The Dark Lord took advantage of his momentary confusion. He delivered a telekinetic shove that threw Starkiller backward off the platform and down to the lower levels of the ruined cloning tower. The blow and the fall had the welcome effect of clearing his mind. He turned in midair and landed on his feet. An instant later he was leaping upward again, his face a mask of determination.

Also, given that you love other mediums, and consistently deferred to sources which contradict the novelization in your post, I’d like to point out that in virtually every depiction of the fight sans the Wii version of the game and the novelization Starkiller legitimately overpowers Vader in the final section of the fight: in the XBOX version of the game he blasts him into submission with Force Lightning (3), in the comic, he Force Pushes Vader mid duel before finishing him with Force Lightning (4), and in the DS version of the game he ragdolls Vader (5).

All in all, any comparisons between Galen and ESB/ROTJ Luke are totally unjustified, they have no merit whatsoever due to the circumstances surrounding both Galen vs Vader fights.

He has “greater mastery over himself and over the Force” since ANH, has “largely freed himself of pain through the Force” and “advanced his lightsaber technique”, thus making him “a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star.” He’s also freed himself from the limitations of his suit (S&V#8). So, overall, his combative deadliness and power in the Force have increased dramatically since his fights with Galen Marek. This is the Vader that Luke Skywalker in ESB faces off against, and he does extremely well considering his extreme deficit in training and experience.

So, Luke holds his own against Vader at the height of his powers, in a state “far more formidable” in combat than what Galen Marek faced - all with a bare minimum of training. Vader even tells Luke that he was performing better than Ben Kenobi on the Death Star, “You have been learning, you’re young and quick, you offer me better sport than the old man.” (ESB:RD). The duel was “long and trying” for both combatants, and Luke was constantly improving as the duel progressed (Link). Lucas describes it as a “slightly one-sided sword fight” (Link), and “It is only Vader’s much greater experience that gives the Dark Lord the dominant edge in the battle.” (Insider #62)

This paragraph is pointless given that the Galen vs Vader segment of your post does not have any merit. Though regarding the fight, I feel the need to point out that Luke was on the losing end of the exchange, he performed well sure, but in the end, Vader was definitely the vast superior - they’re clearly on opposite ends of the same tier. Luke is completely exhausted from the first exchange in the Carbonite Freezing Chamber (6), meanwhile, at the end of the duel, Vader comes on “twice as powerful” as before and pushes Luke back. If Vader still has a plentiful supply of reserves left and Luke is on the verge of collapse, they’re clearly not close. This aligns with the entire thematic premise of ESB i.e. Luke wasn’t close to ready to face Vader, he can contend, but an accurate scale if we assume Vader’s musings on Ben vs Luke are accurate is probably something like this:

ESB Vader>>ESB Luke~ANH Ben~ANH Vader.

Which given that Starkiller is like >>>>>>>>>> Vader, this comparison doesn’t really favour Luke at all.

During his final confrontation with Vader, Luke was his father's equal as a duelist and as a Force user (Link), despite Vader exhibiting "more deadly invincibility than ever" [1] and "brings his full strength and power" against his son [2]. To put this into perspective, Luke with 4 years of training, most of it concentrated within one session with Ben, some time with Yoda on Dagobah and the rest self-taught is the combat equal of a Vader “far more formidable” than TFU Vader, the same Vader Starkiller cannot overcome in TFU2 by normal means (taking advantage of an opening in his chest panel made by Juno during her surprise attack).

I don’t disagree with anything here, it’s just pointless. There were circumstances to Starkiller’s fight with Vader - a lot of circumstances actually - and Starkiller still won. These comparisons to try to sh*t on Galen’s potential and disprove the clear narrative intent of the game developers don’t hold the slightest bit of water.

D) Galen vs Luke: Sidious Comparison

A mere six years after the events of ROTJ, Luke Skywalker defeated Darth Sidious in a lightsaber duel, being “too strong” for him (note that Luke isn't stronger than Sidious in overall power) (Link). Compare this with Sidious’ casual ragdoll of “enlightened” Starkiller in the Dark Side ending for TFU1:

Starkiller has had a decade and a half of ruthless training under Darth Vader, only to be completely ripped apart and casually ragdolled by Sidious. Conversely, Luke with ten years of training, most of it self taught had become stronger than Sidious. The disparity in potential and growth is clear.

That’s some suspect insight. Do you remember what Galen’s enlightenment was? Because it genuinely doesn’t seem like you do:

The Force Unleashed Novelization wrote:Glancing over Darth Vader's shoulder, he saw the Emperor watching the duel, his face screwed up in malevolent delight. And the apprentice understood. A better way to kill. . .

Not out of hatred. Whatever lay beneath that black mask, it wasn't beauty or happiness. Only ugliness and pain would hide itself away for so long. Hatred would not be enough to turn the tables on Darth Vader.

Galen’s enlightenment - as you have so aptly called it - was realising that he shouldn’t kill Vader out of hate but rather out of pity. Now, what does Galen do in the Dark Side ending (you may find a clue in the name of the ending)? Yes, that’s right, funnily enough, he doesn’t make the good, upstanding choice, he chooses to get his revenge on Vader - killing him out of hate - as opposed to helping Kota and the rebels, ergo this isn’t Galen fighting Sidious while enlightened, as his enlightenment was realising that he shouldn’t give into anger to beat Vader, instead he should kill him out of pity. In fact, I’d say it’s incredibly likely Galen was weakened in the Dark Side ending of TFU, and far from at his strongest. To elaborate, HK-47 notes that Jedi can be weakened by negative emotions, like guilt and fear:

HK-47 wrote:Generally, this was done by broadcasting strong emotions while thinking about something else. It was a curious technique, but it seemed to be effective in blinding Jedi. Whether guilt, lust, fear - they act as mental interference, making finding the true intentions of the broadcasting meatbag difficult. Obviously, a Force Sensitive broadcasting such emotions puts themselves at risk of not using the Force "properly," since to use it seems to require an inner calm that most meatbags do not possess. As much as the Jedi could not use such a technique, the Sith Lords cannot use it for much the same reasons - such passions as guilt, lust, and fear are rarely strengths to the Sith code.

In this instance, I wouldn’t say it’s at all far-fetched to say Galen would feel guilty about taking his revenge on his Master (he’s felt guilty about sh*t he was far less responsible for) and leaving Kota and the rebels at Sidious’s mercy given that upon seeing Bail Organa’s body he screams “no” and is visibly horrified by the sight of it. Such emotions in combination with anger - which Galen was clearly feeling when he fought Sidious as he’s visibly angry when he lunges at him - generally lead to an absolute sh*t show (see Anakin vs Dooku on the Invisible Hand). In fact, Galen notes earlier when fighting Vader that anger “clouded his eyes when he most clearly needed to see” reinforcing my position that Galen’s bitter feelings towards Vader and Sidious do not at all benefit him. These feelings would only be intensified by Sidious’s mockery of his predictability, and betrayal of his friends. Overall, the most likely and consistent conclusion, which doesn’t involve throwing away statements and Galen’s performance in the Light Side Ending, is that he was operating well below his peak capabilities.

4) Galen’s Power: Vader Scaling

A) Galen vs Vader

Though after enlightenment, Galen gains an advantage in the lightsaber duel, penetrating Vader’s defences. He then proceeds to telekinetically ragdoll Vader:

So does this prove that Galen is more powerful than Vader to the point where he can outright ragdoll his former master? Not at all. Note first that Galen Marek is a TK savant, and his prodigious abilities in this area are disproportionate to his actual power level (Link). His telekinetic feats are not indicative of his actual power - they’re stronger. Furthermore, Vader’s dueling skills are severely inferior to his power (Link), making his loss against Starkiller in a duel irrelevant to the topic of power. Thus, the power disparity between Vader and Galen is vague and unquantifiable; since Starkiller’s TK is disproportionate to his actual power level, which would explain away why he was able to ragdoll Vader via TK without deferring to Starkiller simply being more powerful.

So many excuses lmao. Do you think Sean Williams really sat there and had Galen dominate Vader in every fundamental area relevant to combat - both Force and sabers - yet had the thought process you’re outlining now i.e. Galen isn’t vastly more powerful? This is a misguided, bad faith attempt to dismiss SK’s performances, we don’t just ignore everything he’s done because of a largely unquantifiable prodigious talent with TK. I don’t think any character has ever shown to be utterly disproportionate with one power in combat to the degree you’re suggesting. Regardless given that SK’s Lightning is also indicated to be more potent than his other powers (7), it seems more likely that because SK is a “primal” Force wielder, he’s better with more basic powers like TK and Lightning (rather than it simply being that he’s got TK tiers above his normal power and the rest of his abilities are sh*t like you’re suggesting), and thus his TK and Lightning are more than likely the greatest reflection of his raw power anyway (the subject of my opener) as they’re the easiest to master (instead of other more difficult abilities being indicative of his so-called “actual power”). That doesn’t mean his other powers are vastly below his TK and Lightning though unless you want to argue that Galen’s mastery is so bad that the only powers he’s got any degree with skill with are incredibly basic ones, and that he can’t even get up his other abilities to 75% of the power of his extra potent TK + Lightning, or that he could have ragdolled Palpatine. Besides this isn’t really going to negatively affect SK in any significant manner for two reasons:

A) He can still obviously use his prodigious TK + Lightning in this fight.

B) His range of powers isn’t really that varied in the first place, he mostly uses TK + Lightning + Augmentation, so this hardly affects him that much. The only thing that is negatively affected by this argument is his aug, but given that even with his less potent powers he’s defended against Palpatine’s Lightning, and Plagueis is lacking in saber feats and accolades I don’t think it matters that much.

B) Vader vs Early-TCW Ventress

This quote is merely relaying that Sidious didn’t intend for the Dark Side adepts to become a threat to his Rule of Two, hence why their training was limited.

And we know that he was successful in stopping them from becoming a threat to Vader, himself and the Rule of Two, given that the quote says Ventress is was “only” a Sith adept, making it clear she falls into the previously mentioned criteria: “The most powerful of these agents were 'only' Sith adepts but would appear to be almost as dark Jedi - the likes of Asajj Ventress, Mara Jade or Inquisitor Valin (in fact a fallen Jedi).”

This is not mutually exclusive with them actually becoming a threat, thus rendering the rest of your Vader scaling completely moot.

The quote doesn’t mention that they ever became a threat, and the only thing it indicates is that Sidious succeeded in his goal. Moreover, your rebuttal is essentially contingent on arguing Sidious sucks at keeping his adepts in check, and that Ventress became a threat to Vader despite not being trained to which isn’t really at all believable.

You’ve yet to prove why scaling off Vader is relevant against someone like Plagueis in the first place.

The reasoning was provided in my opener:

I wrote:Overall: Vader>>TCW Mace Windu>>TPM Mace>Jedi Dooku>Darth Maul.

So what is the relevance of this? Well, it’s rather simple based on showings from Plagueis probably can’t replicate this feat due to the scaling above.

To elaborate, Sidious grew extensively from TPM (by which point he was already better than Plagueis) to TCW (elaborated upon in later section), yet he couldn’t ragdoll TCW Maul whereas Galen can ragdoll TPM Maul’s significant superior without effort. Now, while Maul obviously grew from TPM to TCW I doubt it’s enough to offshoot the significant gap between himself and Vader, Sidious’s growth, and the vast difference in performance between Galen and TCW Sidious.

Galen>>>>Vader>>TCW Mace Windu>>TPM Mace Windu>Jedi Dooku>TPM Maul still stands.

5) The Power of Darth Plagueis The Wise (or lack thereof)

A) Fear

Are you so sure? Merely two years before TPM, Sidious described Plagueis as such:

This is Sidious sensing Plagueis through the Force, describing him as emitting "terrifying energy" and his body could contain "the full power of the dark side" in Sidious' eyes.

This does nothing to disprove the idea that the reason Sidious was afraid of Plagueis after his boost is that he feared Plagueis became immortal. The fact that Sidious viewed Plagueis as powerful prior to TPM isn’t in dispute, the question here is whether Sidious viewed Plagueis as comparably powerful to himself post-boost.

If you’re trying to debunk the premise that Sidious’s speech about having greater power than Plagueis is indicative of his actual views you haven’t actually gone into any detail as to why these passages disprove that notion, so there’s not really anything to refute here.

Circa TPM, Sidious even describes Plagueis as "seemingly omnipotent" and feels envy that Plagueis could possibly have known about Veruna's attack on Sojourn.

I can’t stop laughing at this argument. Are you genuinely trying to see what you can get away with at this point? The full context of the quote is provided below:

Darth Plagueis wrote:The Muun's renewed vigor had taken Sidious by surprise. The mere fact that he had escaped the devastation on Sojourn made him seem almost omnipotent.

Right, so the sole reason Sidious views Plagueis as seemingly almost omnipotent is that he escaped the devastation of Sojourn due to a tip-off from Jabba alerting him of the bombing before it happened (not a display of Force Power). You’re essentially arguing Sidious is like, “Wow, Plagueis flew away from a bombing in an invisible ship due to receiving a warning about it just prior, that makes him really strong in the Force.” which doesn’t make any sense in the slightest. The more logical take is to assume that this quote has nothing to do with Force Power and that Sidious stating Plagueis is omnipotent refers to him having almost unlimited allies and resources at his disposal. But of course, I forgot, we don’t take into account logic in pro-Plagueis arguments. Whatever makes him look the best is obviously the take we should go with.

The difference in tune when Sidious assassinates Plagueis - his egotistical speech - isn't necessarily indicative of Sidious' true feelings.

Why wouldn’t it be indicative of his true feelings? The entire speech is essentially Sidious revealing how he really feels to Plagueis, and he even acknowledges Plagueis’s accomplishments in that very same monologue. Your arguments against it have been refuted above. So far you’ve yet to provide a valid contradiction.

Furthermore, since you deem voice actor's quotes as an acceptable authority in continuity, I don't see any reason why Luceno's opinions about the outcome of a duel between Sidious and Plagueis can't be used as well:

There’s a fundamental difference between officially published VA statements, and Luceno’s unofficial Facebook Q and A.

So Luceno clearly thinks Plagueis had a shot taking Sidious down combatively.

This quote hinders your argument more than it helps it. Luceno using terminology such as “may have” and “undermine” clearly doesn’t illustrate he views Plagueis and pre-boost TPM Sidious as not close. The fact that he says Plagueis only “may have” beaten Sidious indicates uncertainty about the victor, and if Plagueis has to “undermine” (i.e. subtly and gradually weaken) Sidious there clearly isn’t a massive difference in Force Power. In total contrast, post-boost Sidious is much more powerful than pre-boost Sidious, so your argument that post-boost Sidious and Plagueis are comparable crumbles in on itself (if you accept Luceno’s statement as legit).

But what's more to the point, the idea that Plagueis being immortal was the only concern of Sidious' is more speculative and less based on the facts than my stance.

Strawmann. I never claimed that Plagueis potentially being immortal was Sidious’s “only concern” just that it’s a relevant factor that should be acknowledged.

Sidious doesn't seem incredulous at all over the prospect of Plagueis causing the tremor that "shook the stars themselves"; he regards Plagueis as insanely powerful.

There’s no question Sidious views Plagueis as insanely powerful, that’s not in dispute. The question is whether Plagueis is comparable in power to post-boost TPM Sidious, and the answer to that, in my opinion, is clearly no.

Plagueis' survival as an immortal entity isn't a possibility that arouses feelings of indifference or amusement in Sidious, but abject fear. Consider that even though he feared Ventress in the Clone Wars and saw her as a threat to his power, that doesn't mean he wouldn't be wary of engaging her. Case and point: he engaged Sidious and Savage, stated threats to the Rule of Two and engaged them in a lightsaber duel. And even though he knew after the fact that Ventress and Maul weren't dead, he was dismissive because they posed no threat to his plans. In other words, this is a singular case where he not only considers a being a threat to his person, he's also in abject fear of that being, even after being boosted in power.

Relevance? Of course, Plagueis is obviously closer to post-boost Sidious than either Maul or Ventress are to TCW Sidious, but that doesn’t preclude Sidious from still being significantly stronger than Plagueis, especially since as I mentioned, there is context to Sidious’s fear.

Even if Plagueis was unkillable, there's no reason Sidious couldn't capture and imprison Plagueis.

Sure, but if he had advanced MM to the point where he became immortal he’d be virtually impossible to incapacitate. Add on the fact that Plagueis potentially hadn’t taught Sidious everything and had some tricks up his sleeve, plus his own incredible power, and you definitely have reasonable cause for Sidious to be scared. Also, if Plagueis had become immortal that also proposes the question to Sidious: What else can he do with MM?

If he was significantly more powerful than Plagueis, he wouldn't be so out of character with abject fear and concern for his own personal safety.

I don’t see why not given that Sidious doesn’t know whether Plagueis has ways to overcome his power advantage, and is considering in this context that Plagueis may have become immortal.

Touching briefly on the quote you mentioned:

Sidious knew that his own powers had increased tenfold over the decades, but he couldn’t be certain he had learned all of Plagueis’s secrets—“his sorcerer’s ways,” as the Sun Guards referred to them—including the ability to prevent beings from dying. He sometimes wondered: Was he a level behind? Two levels behind?

This is irrelevant to cite because Sidious as of his attempt on Plagueis had learnt exactly how to do that:

I could save you, of course. Return you from the brink, as you did Venamis. I could retask your body to repair the damage already done to your lungs, your hearts, your aged brain. But I'll do no such thing. The idea here is not to drag you back at the last moment, but to bring you to death's door and shove you through to the other side.

The fact that Sidious eventually learned one of Plagueis’s secrets doesn’t mean he was confident he’d learned all of them. The point of citing the quote is to substantiate that Sidious questioned whether he’d learned all his master’s secrets (like almost all Banites) and that this fear would still very much be there by the time of his Master’s death (there’s no way for Sidious to prove he knew everything Plagueis did). Moreover, Sidious thought it was possible Plagueis had discovered the key to immortality and not told him, due to the potentially becoming “ensnared in a self-spun web of jealousy and possessiveness.” Operating under this premise, there’s no reason for Sidious to think Plagueis didn’t hide other sh*t from him too, it’s possible Plagueis has a few extra cards up his sleeve.

The idea that Sidious learnt his master's secrets is corroborated extensively in the lore (Link). Although it's safe to say Sidious didn't literally know everything, he knew most of it.

You’ve already conceded that your own premise isn’t true - Sidious knew most, not all, of what his master knew - so I’m not exactly sure how this refutes my argument. Sidious can still know most of what his master taught him, yet still be vulnerable to 1 or 2 tricks Plagueis hadn’t taught him, the two aren’t mutually exclusive. Plus, this argument isn’t about what Sidious actually knew, but what about he thought he knew - there’s no way for Sidious to definitively know his master had taught him everything - and as already cited, he clearly wasn’t certain he knew everything.

So, since you conceded indirectly that author quotes are valid, Luceno doesn't see anything wrong with Plagueis winning a combat against Sidious.

I conceded author quotes that have been published in official material are valid, I couldn’t care less about a Luceno Facebook Q and A that doesn’t even support your argument.

This, combined with Sidious uncharacteristic abject fear of Plagueis' power after his own boost in power corroborates the point that Plagueis was comparable in power to TPM Sidious.

Comparable to pre-boost Sidious? Definitely. Comparable to post-boost Sidious? Absolutely not. Sidious’s fear is based on uncertainty of what Plagueis brings to the table, not solely Plagueis’s conventional power.

B) Potential

I’m sorry if I sound pissed off while writing this, my dedication is at an all-time low and I have very little patience for bullsh*t.

Firstly, the amount of times you stated Sidious growing in power is not mutually exclusive with his body hitting his biological limit is honestly infuriating:

You’re conflating growth in power with applicable power. Sidious can still become stronger whilst also being limited by his body, they’re not mutually exclusive.

---

How is Sidious’ growth in the Force mutually exclusive with him only being able to use as much as his body can handle without deforming and aging him? He can still become more powerful, that doesn’t change his limit, which is his body.

---


Expanding on what I’ve said above, Sidious’ power increase is not mutually exclusive with limits on how much of that power he can use. It doesn’t matter how much he has in the tank, he can only drain so much of it at once without deteriorating his body.

---

Again, we come full circle to the point that Sidious’ growing power is not mutually exclusive with him being able to funnel all of that without damaging his body instantaneously, though the presence of that power destroys his body slowly nonetheless, hence the ritual and the increasing strain on Palpatine's Face as the Clone Wars progressed; it was getting harder and harder to maintain the mask as he grew in power (Link).

I fully acknowledged they’re not mutually exclusive - I wrote an explanation on why the quotes refer to combat applicable power - yet you saw fit to repeat the exact same f*cking thing four times even though I acknowledged. Did you actually read my post or did someone summarise it for you lol? Here:

I wrote:Why would Sidious bide his time in order to gather strength if he’s only going to use that power in extreme moments given that it will damage his body, and it isn’t even necessary for his plans?

I wrote:And given that it’s actively affecting the Jedi’s ability to see the future it’s clearly combat applicable and not just power locked inside Sidious. Furthermore, Yoda even thinks it’s logical the Sith increased based on his fight with Sidious indicating Sidious’s growth quotes do refer to combat applicable power.

Please read what I write next time, it’d save us both a lot of time - you’d get to spend less time with your rebuttals, and I wouldn’t have to respond to blatant misinterpretations of my arguments.

Quote 1:

The quote is likely referring to political power, rather than power in the Force.

The quote notes just prior that Sidious is “the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power” which is completely irrelevant information if the quote is talking about political power, the phrase being included in the quote is much more plausible if it’s referring to Force Power. You’re going to need to go into detail on why it’s “likely” that it’s talking about political power.

It never says that Sidious bides his time so that he can become powerful enough to enact his plans, only that his plans and strength are growing simultaneously.

So you’re arguing that him initiating his plans as his strength grows is wholly coincidental? Your interpretation doesn’t really fit with the reading of the quote, you're arguing that it randomly denoted his strength grew alongside his plans despite that being completely irrelevant to the subject matter (if we accept your take). The quote makes so much more sense if we interpret it as Sidious only finally unleashing his plans when he’s strong enough, and it fits with the text noting just prior Sidious is waiting for the opportune moment to initiate his plans.

Quote 2:

There’s no evidence to substantiate the dark side cloud being representative of his combat applicable power. Considering that during the Clone Wars he had to use a ritual repeatedly in order to maintain his appearance as Palpatine, it makes sense to conclude that the more powerful he became in sync with the dark side cloud becoming denser only made the need for his body to revitalised more apparent as time went on. Again, we come full circle to the point that Sidious’ growing power is not mutually exclusive with him being able to funnel all of that without damaging his body instantaneously, though the presence of that power destroys his body slowly nonetheless, hence the ritual and the increasing strain on Palpatine's Face as the Clone Wars progressed; it was getting harder and harder to maintain the mask as he grew in power (Link).

Bullsh*t. As already noted in my opener: “Given that it’s actively affecting the Jedi’s ability to see the future it’s clearly combat applicable and not just power locked inside Sidious.” How on earth is power that’s directly affecting people around Sidious not combat applicable? It can’t exactly be power Sidious cannot use without damaging his body if he is using it consistently for over a decade with no serious effects.

The quote you cited doesn’t prove anything, Sidious suffering from Dark Side degradation is not indicative of him supposedly having power inside of him that’s too much for his body to handle like you’re concluding.

And again, you’re ignoring the obvious intent of the quote in question. Yoda concludes Sidious must have grown in power based on his fight with him indicating it’s clearly combat applicable power and not just power that’s locked away which Sidious can’t use apart from in extreme situations.

As an aside, Sidious did, in fact, draw beyond his body against Yoda:

Right… Sidious’s body becoming deformed from his fight with Yoda doesn’t mean he drew beyond his body’s potential, there are other explanations for that. Besides, even if he did, there’s no evidence he was doing it for the full fight (I’m pretty sure we’d see him be heavily damaged if he did), especially not right at the start of the fight when he’s not in any significant danger. Then there’s also the fact that the two were fighting equally in that part of the fight - which given the two are equals when Sidious is at base - you’d expect Sidious to be winning if he was drawing beyond his biological Force potential.

Anyway, do you seriously think the author wrote this quote with the intention: “Oh Sidious has grown more powerful but his body limits him, yet he’s drawing beyond his body’s potential.” I certainly don’t think so, the author notes a general power increase for him without even remotely touching upon the fact that this is power that he can’t use without damaging himself.

Post-Boost TPM Sidious:

The sensation and direct correlation to hitting a limit in the body is echoed across numerous sources, including with Starkiller himself! When he enters oneness during TFU, he “felt ripped apart by the energy that had flowed through him.” And unleashed all the power of the Force in him, putting his cells into shock. Luke in Dark Nest feels the same sensation of being ripped apart when he focused too much power for his body to endure, and even looks like Sidious after the feat - Mara Jade notes that this is what happened to Sidious; the strain of using too much power than the body could handle aged and deformed it. In Plagueis, Sidious is said to be a “vessel full to bursting” after he gains an influx of power, matching the other descriptions.

The sensation matching other descriptions doesn’t mean the quote isn’t hyperbole. In the example(s) provided extensive descriptions are given, whereas in Sidious’s case we’re given a single phrase, yet you’re nonsensically concluding Sidious hit his biological Force Potential, despite the fact that if he had the author probably would have gone into greater detail given that it has significance to the rest of the lore.

Regardless, the term “full to bursting”, even if hyperbole still means something is full or close to full, so your argument becomes moot.

“Filled to bursting” and “full to bursting” are, of course, obviously not the same thing - the latter necessitates that something is full (given that the word full is used in the phrase), whereas the former doesn’t. I think it’s pertinent to note that the phrase is exaggeration and commonly used to convey there is an abundance of something rather than something literally hitting its maximum capacity. For example, to look back at my previous citations in post 1, in absolutely none of these cases has the thing in question hit its maximum capacity. Likewise, if I claim I am “filled to bursting” with food after having a filling turkey on Christmas Day, that does not mean I can literally not consume any more food. This aligns with the reading of the quote, it’s trying to convey Sidious is juiced up with power, not that he hit his full potential (that’s indicated absolutely nowhere). Again, the phrase is an obvious overstatement, and is clearly non-literal - I’ve seen it used dozens of times before. Why you chose to make this your main argument is quite frankly beyond me.

6) Midichlorian Manipulation

The mere fact that you titled the scans you listed the scans in this section as “inconsistencies” is hilarious, it genuinely doesn’t seem like you view any of the garbage I’m going to respond to as consistent with SK’s feats.

Anyway, half of these scans are taken out of their proper context, and the few that are legitimate don’t prove SK lacks mastery. I can cite potentially dozens of instances, for example, of Kenobi getting tagged by Force attacks in combat by equal/superior/slightly inferior opponents, and the conclusion isn’t that he lacks mastery. You’re jumping to assumptions based on something that happens to virtually every character in the mythos.

Moreover, you’re deliberately cherry-picking whichever depiction of the fight is most favourable to you - the one where someone scores a Force attack on SK and ignoring the medium where he completes the fight flawlessly. In the novelization, for example:

-Kota doesn’t land a single Force attack on SK - the most he manages to do is reflect SK’s own attacks back against him - it’s noted he can’t breach Galen’s defences (8).

-Ti similarly fails to hit SK with a Force attack - all she lands are Lightsaber strikes when she throws everything she has into her final attack (9).

-The Shadow Guard(s) once again, don’t land even a physical strike on SK, much less a Force strike (10).

-Vader fails to breach Starkiller’s defences in the entire TFU 2 fight (11).

I say we agree to a singular source for SK’s fights, in order to keep consistent and avoid cherry-picking, as they all portray the fights differently. I’d suggest the novelization as it's by far the most detailed, plus it has been labelled as “the one true canon path” for TFU material meaning it’s what actually took place in continuity.

Following on from that previous point, several of the scans you posted contradict each other:

-Gifs 1 and 3 from your TFU 2 list completely contradict each other, they both depict the exact same scene, just in a different manner.

-Gifs 4 and 5 from your TFU 2 list do not align, they both show the ending of the fight, just in different ways.

See what I mean? You’re cherry-picking from sources that portray different fights and stitching together the scans most favourable to your argument. It’s dishonest and a pain in the ass to respond to, so please next time, at least try to stick to a single version of the fights.

Anyway, this lengthy tangent aside, most of these scans lack context, so let’s put them into perspective:

Starkiller has shown to neglect his own defences in battle; although he is generally more powerful than his opponents, he fails to adequately defend himself, thus resulting in combatants like Rahm Kota (1), Shaak Ti (2)(3), and a shadow guard (4) being able to penetrate his Force wall, even though he proved to be the overall superior combatant.

Scan 1: You seem to be ignoring the rather obvious fact that SK had never fought a real Jedi before, so it makes sense that he’d be tagged by a Force attack, he hasn’t had any real experience fighting yet. Kota even comes to this conclusion after he hits SK with his Telekinesis attack, suggesting that SK’s lack of experience was the cause of him getting tagged. By the end of the novel/comic/game, SK had fought a much greater number of opponents, and had more experience of what to expect, using this fight to lowball him is pathetic. This also contradicted by the novelization regardless.

Scan 2: This is one instance, it doesn’t prove anything, and anyway, it once again is contradicted by the novelization.

Scan 3: This is a direct continuation of the previous attack (from scan 2) on an already floored SK, I have no clue what you’re trying to prove by citing it. And like the previous scan, it does not line up with the novel.

Scan 4: A Shadow Guard surprise attacking Galen does not prove he neglects his own defences in combat - he wasn’t even in combat when the Shadow Guard pushed him. It also once more, does not align with the novel.

And of course against Darth Vader himself (5).

This one actually has a case for being both legitimate and non-contradictory. Comics are massively cropped down versions of a fight though, so it’s unclear whether this is before or after Galen’s “enlightenment” boost, but I’d say it more than likely happened before, (given that the comic shows an initial Lightsaber clash - albeit the initial clash is depicted slightly differently in the comic - then a Force exchange just like the novel, and that’s where this could fit in) at a time where Galen and Vader were “equals” (according to SK), rather than the part where Galen was dominating Vader meaning once again it’s just a typical example of two close fighters tagging each other with Force attacks.

As for the TFU 2 SK dies gif compilation, gifs 2, 3, and 4 are all contradicted by the novelization, and 5 can have a case be made either way, but I’ll refute them individually regardless, as you left out context for most of these:

Gif 1: It's likely Starkiller was hindered when Vader ragdolled him, given that Starkiller states Vader's plan by killing Juno was an attempt to destabilise him:

The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization wrote:This was what Darth Vader had wanted all along. He had been right to fear that Juno was in danger, but not just from clones like him-from Vader, who would use her death to destabilise Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair.

Generally, when a Force User has been destabilised (emotionally compromised), their ability to use the Force is diminished as is noted by HK-47:

HK-47 wrote:Generally, this was done by broadcasting strong emotions while thinking about something else. It was a curious technique, but it seemed to be effective in blinding Jedi. Whether guilt, lust, fear - they act as mental interference, making finding the true intentions of the broadcasting meatbag difficult. Obviously, a Force Sensitive broadcasting such emotions puts themselves at risk of not using the Force "properly," since to use it seems to require an inner calm that most meatbags do not possess. As much as the Jedi could not use such a technique, the Sith Lords cannot use it for much the same reasons - such passions as guilt, lust, and fear are rarely strengths to the Sith code.

If you read the novelization, you'll find that SK was exhibiting all the underlined emotions, making it clear Vader's plan to destabilise him worked.

Guilt: "Horror and self-reproach filled his mind. He hadn't seen her crawling for the lightsaber; he hadn't sensed her desperate plan until the very last moment-and it was his alarm that had alerted Vader, he was sure of it."

Fear: "Instead, he had thought only of saving Juno-a plan, he feared, that might always have been doomed to failure . . . He had been right to fear that Juno was in danger, but not just from clones like him-from Vader, who would use her death to destabilize Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair."

Overall, Vader breached the defences of a hindered Starkiller, this is not proof SK neglects his own defences in battle.

Gif 2: This is perhaps the only legitimate instance in the entire compilation of gifs, but it falls under the same banner as my arguments against the Kota and Ti showings, it’s contradicted by the novelization and a few instances of SK getting tagged by Force attacks doesn’t prove much.

Gif 3: As per the Prima Guide, when Vader draws in Juno with the Force, SK’s “focus wavers, and he seizes the opportunity”, ergo Vader hit an unfocused SK with TK. This isn’t proof SK neglects his own defences in combat, there was a specific reason for his momentary defensive lapse, one which will not be available in this matchup for Plagueis to exploit.

Gif 4: Per the VG and the Prima Guide, Galen just prior had used “Force Rage” to “strike a savage blow to Darth Vader and his minions (11:47 - 11:56)." After Galen has struck the “savage blow” against Vader, however you can clearly see he’s no longer in Force Rage (his Force Rage meter is reset and the red around the edges of the screen fades), meaning he would have been “drained of huge amounts of energy”, as that is what happens when one exists Force Rage. You cannot conclude SK neglects his own defences in combat because Vader ragdolled him while he was heavily weakened (in this state he was most definitely far inferior to Vader).

Gif 5:  According to the novelization, Galen let himself get disarmed so he could beat Vader when the latter lowered his guard (12). Now, obviously Vader doesn’t lower his guard in the VG and Galen ends up having to do things the hard way, but that doesn’t mean the original reason why he let himself get disarmed still wasn't there. Note that if you attempt to argue that the scene in the VG is different from the novel so I cannot apply SK’s motives from there to it that would mean the scene itself is contradictory (Vader disarming SK legitimately obviously never happens in the novel), and according to the canon policy we’re using gameplay mechanics are S-Canon, whereas the novelization is C-Canon meaning if the scene contradicts the novelization depiction of events it is rendered N-Canon (this is also reinforced by my previous arguments for novel supremacy). Either the disarm never happened or SK let him do it. Either way, the scene is illegitimate and does not prove SK doesn’t focus on his defences in combat.

In other words, he lacks self-mastery and discipline in combat, choosing rather to rely on his raw power to see him through.

How on earth you reached this conclusion from SK getting hit like every normal fighter is quite frankly beyond me. You’re jumping to insane conclusions in a hilarious attempt to lowball. Out of this great number of gifs and scans, you have maybe 3 legitimate ones if I let you cherry-pick from different sources, and 1 legitimate one if I don’t. This is in total contrast to SK not getting touched in pretty much every fight in the novel.

This is problematic against a masterful opponent like Plagueis, especially when said opponent not only has superior Force knowledge and abilities at his disposal, but an ability that needs only a small gap in SK’s defence to enact.

Too bad you’ve cited barely any instances of SK slipping up, and the ones you have cited are from near equals to SK, so you’d need to prove parity between Plagueis and SK anyway for this case to work.

As for your case for MM itself, I don’t see anything wrong with it, but it’s limited by the fact that you haven’t got any proof SK will give openings for Plagueis to exploit.

7) The Force Unleashed 2

As already cited by you, Starkiller is combatively superior to his original self in The Force Unleashed 2 making any of his feats in TFU a taster of his best, which is shown at the end of TFU 2.

In the final stages of TFU 2, Galen performs all of his best feats back to back. He starts by defending against heat comparable to “the outer layers of a star” while guiding a 300m frigate, before atomising the fore section of the frigate (13) - blowing it “into a billion pieces.” Starkiller then falls unconscious for a duration of time, and when he wakes up he can barely stand (14) and struggles to lift a relatively small ship (15), yet later when he “sought strength from within himself and pushed outward with all his might” he had enough strength left to blast away an army of Starkiller clones (16) that could have “easily turned upon their creator (Vader) and overpowered him.” After this Starkiller states, he’d “never felt so exhausted at every level of his being” (17) which would include a time when he spent thirteen days wasting away Force energy to the point where he didn’t even want to spend energy on thinking or remember (18), yet despite being in such poor condition he defeats Vader once (19) and then stalemates him the second time (20). Overall, Galen performs one of the best TK feats in the mythos, and despite being incredibly weakened afterward still had enough power left to beat a fighting force vastly superior to Vader, and then defeat Vader himself. This feat is immense, and you have you ask yourself, can you really see Plagueis doing something like this? My answer to that is no, Plagueis isn’t on Galen’s level in raw power, he’s capped firmly below post-boost TPM Sidious, meanwhile, SK is running gauntlets I can see ROTS Sidious having a hard time against.

8) Conclusion

Overall:

-Galen has vastly more power than Plagueis, my scaling still stands, and he’s performed environmental feats that sh*t all over anything Plagueis has done.

-Plagueis isn’t comparable to post-boost TPM Sidious, nor did Sidious hit his full potential after being boosted by his master’s death.

You’ve placed all your eggs in one basket, and a faulty one at that, meanwhile I have both lines of scaling, and environmental feats to substantiate Galen is wielding power on par with the high tiers, whereas Plagueis clearly isn’t.

9) Sourcing

1:



2:

The Force Unleashed Novelization wrote:"I don't need to hate you in order to beat you," he gasped. "That's something I will teach you now."

"You can teach me nothing," Darth Vader's leaden voice intoned. One black glove clenched, and for a moment the apprentice's throat closed tight.

He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room.

For all his size and occasional clumsiness, the Dark Lord was sure on his feet. He landed upright and launched himself back into the fray.

"I don't hate you," the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. "I pity you." With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot. "You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you." A strip of Darth Vader's cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. "You are his creature just as I was yours - but you've never had the strength to rebel. That's why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I'll make sure you don't, either."

Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot.

"I will kill you," he said, "to set you free."

The lightsabers flashed again - and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound.

3:

https://youtu.be/4A_i2cvowi4?t=1064

4:



5:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lye6FuGWOYc

6:

The Empire Strikes Back Novelization wrote:Luke's knees nearly buckled with the exhaustion of battling his fearsome opponent.

7:



8:

The Force Unleashed Novelization wrote:"A boy?" With one blindingly fast movement, the lightsaber was in his hand and lit. "After all these months of attacking Imperial targets, Vader sends a boy to fight me?"

Grim and silent, the apprentice adopted a fighting crouch. So the trap had been directed not at him but at his Master. If Kota was disappointed, the apprentice swore that this would be the last emotion Kota ever felt.

He raised his left hand and with the power of the dark side unleashed a bolt of Sith lightning at the renegade Jedi.

Kota only laughed. Raising his left hand in a move that was a mirror image of the apprentice's own, he sent the lightning arcing back to its source. The energy struck both of them, hurling them apart.

The apprentice broke off the attempt, blinking smoke away from his eyes. His anger intensified. He was the first to his feet and running as soon as his boots touched the deck. He felt completely weightless, yet full of momentum, like a hurled spear. His red blade cut a blur through the air, aimed hard at Kota's throat.

The Jedi general ducked and swept his green lightsaber up and down in a lazy attempt to catch him as he went by. That was a move the apprentice had long ago learned to avoid by tucking his head down closer to his center of gravity and rolling in midair, then kicking himself back at his opponent off the nearest wall. This time he pushed telekinetically as he came, attempting to knock Kota's feet out from under him before bringing his blade to bear.

Again, however, Kota deflected his Force energies back at him. Again they were pushed apart.

More cautiously the apprentice circled him, slicing chairs to pieces as he walked and sending the glowing fragments at his enemy's head. Anger made him eager to attack, but he knew better than to give in to it. He hadn't been humiliated. He had successfully tested Kota's defenses. Now that he knew a direct attack would probably fail, he had to find another way to get closer to the man. Or to make the Jedi come to him.

Suddenly Kota was moving, charging with astonishing speed behind a furious diversity of strokes. The apprentice retreated with lips pulled back over his teeth. This is more like it! Green and red energies clashed as he blocked blow after blow and still Kota kept coming, attempting to overwhelm him with sheer determination and speed. The apprentice went back four steps, then stopped. He drew his blade close around him, forming a tight defense in deliberate imitation of the Soresu style that Obi-Wan Kenobi had favored. Realizing he couldn't penetrate it, Kota backed off and tried a different style - slow, deliberate, with sudden and devastatingly quick strikes. These, too, the apprentice parried, and when the old man's guard looked to be slipping, he offered strikes of his own.

The duel raged all across the control center, which shook and rattled as the facility around it broke apart. The apprentice ignored everything else - Juno's voice, the wildly fluctuating gravity, the never-ending explosions, the rising temperature of the floor beneath him - in order to concentrate solely on this one vital battle. Kota wouldn't beat him, but could he beat Kota? He had to. He would rather go down with the ship than break off and admit failure. Darth Vader's secret apprentice knew which fate would await him if he did.

The general was wily and strong and possessed some moves the apprentice had never seen before. But he was older and willfully ignorant of the dark side of the Force. He attempted his charge attack two more times, obviously hoping to force a mistake or wear out his opponent, but it was he who started to show the effects of the duel, he who took hits. Soon his cloak was a smoking rag and one of his shoulder pads was glowing red-hot.

The apprentice pressed harder, feeling victory and the attainment of his full power approaching. Soon the Jedi's lightsaber - and head - would be his. Then he truly would be worthy of his Master's praise!

He caught the general in a choke hold and maintained his grip even though it turned partially back on him. He had been ready for this; his lungs were full. The general, however, clutched at his throat with one hand while barely managing to parry with the other. The apprentice let the fire in his lungs fuel his lust for triumph. Even as darkness crowded around the edges of his vision, he sent objects hurtling at Kota's legs and face, battling him on all fronts.

Finally a fragment of smoking debris struck the general's knees from behind. With a cry of frustration, the flailing Jedi went down, his face purple and eyes bulging. The apprentice relented slightly, letting them both have a little air, but before Kota could scramble to his feet he was on him, pressing down on their locked light-sabers, which sizzled just millimeters from their faces.

Kota strained but couldn't force the red blade away. In his blue eyes the apprentice saw not cleansing hatred, but regret. Even at the end, Kota clung to his weak Jedi ways.

"Vader thinks" - the old man gasped - "he's turned you. But I can sense your future - and Vader isn't part of it!"

The apprentice urged the lightsabers even closer to Kota's face.

Sweat beaded on the Jedi Master's forehead. "I sense- I sense only ..." A look of shock and confusion passed over his face. "Me?"

The apprentice forced Kota's own lightsaber down into his eyes.

And suddenly - as though in a vision from out of time, exactly the sort of vision the apprentice sought in the fire of his red blade - Kota's face became that of another man, a man with dark hair and strong features, features not dissimilar to the apprentice's own.

The general cried out in pain - and in that cry the apprentice thought he heard a man shouting, "Run!"

He flinched away, blinking furiously, wondering if Kota in his desperate extremity had concocted some new and insidious Jedi mind trick. But his head seemed clear of intrusion, and the general seemed to be thinking of anything but attack. Blinded and agonized, he scrabbled backward, his lightsaber slipping from his fingers and dropping with a dead thud to the deck. A blast of telekinesis erupted from him, shattering every viewport in the command center and sending the apprentice flying. A raging wind swept past them, sucking out the smoke and shrapnel of their duel. Kota, too, was sucked out and fell with a fading cry into the atmosphere below. Or had he leapt?

The apprentice let the gale drag him closer to the hole where the viewport had once been. Catching a bent stanchion with one hand, he carefully leaned out and looked down, lightsaber at the ready for any final deception.

Kota's body was already far below, spread-eagled and dwindling among the skylanes of the Vertical City. A large transport intersected his path; thenceforth his body was invisible. The apprentice imagined it being swatted like a bug on a transparisteel windscreen and told himself to feel the satisfaction of a task completed.

9:

The Force Unleashed Novelization wrote:He didn't believe that for a second. With a flick of one wrist, he ripped a mushroom out of the sarlacc's skin and threw it at her head.

She flicked it away with the Force, barely moving an eyebrow.

"You reek of that coward Vader," she said, unfurling her legs and standing in one smooth movement. Her horn-like montrals framed her red-skinned face like an elaborate headdress. The white oval patches around her eyes gave her a slightly startled look, but the apprentice was under no illusion that he had surprised her. She was dressed in the fashion of the Felucians, in a garment made of vegetable material-some still living, judging by the mossy sheen on her belt - and bone. Her striped lekku hung well out of the way down her back, adorned by ribbons and decorative tassels.

He raised the tip of his lightsaber in challenge, but still she didn't reach for hers.

"My Master is not a coward," he said.

"Then why are you here in his place?" she asked with a knowing smile. "Welcome to the Ancient Abyss, a place of sacrifice since time immemorial."

He smiled, letting anger fuel his hatred for her and for all that the Jedi represented. With the dark side behind him, he reached out for the mind of the sarlacc and goaded it to lash out at her.

All the creature did was roar. It resisted him, he realized, with her help.

She smiled in mockery. "Are you prepared to meet your fate?" Then her lightsaber was lit and she was spinning through the air toward him, striking downward as she fell.

The apprentice simultaneously backflipped and blocked her opening blow. The force of it surprised him, and the recoil threw him backward. His hood caught on one of the sarlacc's teeth, and he tore it impatiently away before the snag could interfere with his defense. Shaak Ti's lightsaber was a jagged blue blur between them. He blocked her as best he could until he had his balance again.

Then he jumped. Over her he spun and fell down two layers of teeth toward the mouth of the sarlacc. From there he jumped up again, angling away from her to avoid giving the Jedi the advantage of height, but she was there ahead of him, driving him back down with a series of blows so rapid he barely caught them all.

In desperation, he summoned a bolt of Sith lightning and sent it down, into the flesh of the sarlacc. The beast roared and shook, giving him the opening he needed. Shaak Ti's right foot slipped, forcing her to flip elegantly out of reach of his blade. He leapt after her, swinging as he came.

The fight progressed around the sarlacc's center rings, blow and counterblow accompanied by the roaring of the beast. The apprentice cut off teeth and threw the fragments at his adversary's head. In return she took tighter control of the beast's distributed intelligence and sent its food-seeking tentacles flailing for him. He repulsed them and fought on.

Down they drove each other, closer and closer to the very lip of the creature's enormous mouth. The air was foul down there, heavy with digestive by-products and the stink of rotting meat. Ghastly exhalations rolled over them as the sarlacc roared on. The apprentice was running out of teeth to sever, so he resorted more and more frequently to Sith lightning and random slashes of his lightsaber to keep it twitching underfoot. Thick ichor leaking out of the wounds made the footing even more treacherous.

"You can't keep this up forever," he taunted Shaak Ti as they dueled.

"Neither can you," she said. "You are wasting your strength too quickly."

"The dark side is inexhaustible."

"Your strength is prodigious," she admitted, "but that is your doing. Light, dark..." She paused to aim a blow at his head that he barely deflected. "They are just directions. Do not be fooled that you stand on anything other than your own two feet."

He slashed at her own feet as they spun by overhead and sent one of her ribbons twirling down into the sarlacc's gaping mouth. "Spare me the philosophy lesson, Jedi," he snarled. "I'm only here for your blood."

"And you may yet have it, or I yours."

On her last three words, she struck three blows that each partially found their mark. The first burned a sizzling line down the apprentice's left shoulder. The second scored diagonally across his chest. The third would have skewered his right eye had he not held her back at the last minute with a desperate telekinetic block that stopped her lightsaber barely a millimeter from his skin. He could feel his eyelashes and eyebrows burning. The right side of his sight was entirely blue.

She gasped and staggered backward. Her lightsaber and her gaze dropped. A full half meter of red blade emerged from her stomach, then the rest came free with a hiss.

He backed away, shocked by how close he had come to death and how lucky he had been to defeat her. He had raised his lightsaber by reflex. She had, in the desperation of her final assault, practically thrown herself on the blade. Perhaps she had meant for the two of them to defeat each other at the same time.

Her weakening fingers let go of her lightsaber, which deactivated with a click as it spun away into the sarlacc's mouth. She didn't look angry, just weary and in pain. Her red skin was suddenly very pale.

He feinted toward her, but she didn't react in any way, except to look at him.

"You are Vader's slave," she breathed, "but your power is wasted with him. You could be so much more."

"You'll never convince me to betray my Master." He was shocked that she would try such a weak gambit again. Were these the depths to which the Jedi had sunk?

"Poor boy." She winced. "The Sith always betray one another - but I'm sure you'll learn that-soon enough..."

There was pity in her eyes as they rolled up into her head. She went limp and fell back into the mouth of the sarlacc. The apprentice reached out halfheartedly to catch her body, but was too slow. A second later, he wished that he had tried harder.

A huge explosion of Force energy threw him bodily off his feet. The sarlacc went berserk. Its tentacles lashed out at him and its surface quaked violently, trying to toss him into its waiting maw. He dodged the tentacles' frenzied lunges as best he could and dived for safety onto the town street.

10:

The Force Unleashed Novelization wrote:The black guard deflected every bolt he sent his way. When the last of the troopers fell, the black guard stepped forward with his saber-staff lowered to charge.

"Stay away from the dock!" the apprentice warned both Juno and Kota. "We need another rendezvous point!"

"There's a shipping balloon dock not far from you," Juno responded as his lightsaber clashed with his new enemy's. "What's that noise? You're not fighting Kota, are you?"

"Too hard to explain," he grunted, not sure what the explanation even was. "Get to the balloon dock and wait for me there."

He broke off communications to block a downward slash that almost knocked him flat. Glancing around for Kota, he was relieved to see that the general was nowhere nearby. Now he could summon the full power of the dark side. Drawing on the sense of betrayal and shock he had felt on seeing the figure waiting for him - this deadly, dark assassin who might or might not have something to do with Darth Vader - he pushed with all his might.

His ears rang, such was the energy he released. The dock buckled underneath him; rivets popped and welds tore. His assailant went flying across the wide space, arms spread wide apart. The saber-staff cut a long, twisting line in the metal floor as its owner rolled and came up standing.

A bolt of Sith lightning shot from the hand not holding the staff. The apprentice grinned, having anticipated that tactic. He met the lightning bolt with one of his own. They collided in a spit-ling, tackling ball of pure energy that danced crazily from side to side. The air filled with the sharp stink of ozone.

The hooded assassin grunted and applied more effort. The apprentice met that effort and exceeded it. The ease with which he drove his assailant's lightning back surprised him. For one wielding a Sith blade, the man he was fighting had less power than he should have.

The ball of energy where their crackling bolts met drifted closer and closer to the black guard. He grunted audibly and leaned physically forward with both hands upraised, one in a shaking claw and the other stabbing the saber-staff into the beam, adding its energy to his desperate attack. To no avail. The ball inexorably approached, driven by the dark power of the apprentice's will. When it touched the hilt of the black guard's saber-staff, all its pent-up energy was drawn into him.

With a truncated shriek the guard flew out the open dock and buttered away, dead before his feet even left the ground.

[...]

Out of the cloud of metal fragments leapt a second of the Emperor's Sith assassins, saber-staff upraised. The apprentice met him with a clash of sparks and lightning.

Sith against Sith, they fought backward and forward through the broad, metal-lined space. This assassin was more proficient than the first, wiry and strong with a good reach and penchant for telekinetically throwing items from inside the apprentice's blind spot. He proved to be tough work until the apprentice wrenched the next giant fan off its gimbals and sent it spinning through the air. The black guard seemed so stunned by the sight of it that he didn't jump until it was too late. One spinning blade took his right leg off at the knee. From then, the fight was over.

[...]

Stepping out into the open air, he found himself facing another squad of troopers, two more of the Emperor's assassins, and no less than six Uggernaughts. Two transport balloons heavily weighted with supplies hung overhead, motors whirring to keep them on station, presumably waiting to land. Kota was nowhere in he seen. The apprentice bent his knees and adopted a fighting stance.

"Are you sure you want to do this?" he asked his gathered foes.

The answer came in the form of blasterfire from the troopers, a barrage from the Uggernaughts, and a combined charge from the two assassins. He whirled and leapt, filling the air with reflected energy. All thought ceased; his connection to the Force became deeper than it ever had been before. He moved with grace and pure reflex, ducking under saber-staff blows, hurling troopers bodily at their Ugnaught allies, tossing walkers off the dock, and even raining supplies from one of the balloons above.

The crew of the balloon bailed out in a small speeder. Seeing it abandoned gave him an idea. When his enemies regrouped for a second combined charge, he wrenched the balloon physically downward from the sky, crashing its entire weight down on them all - and then, when the petals of the explosion were at their peak, sweeping the entire mess off the dock with one cathartic flexure of telekinesis.

11:

The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization wrote:"Why me?" he asked the silent cloning tower.

"Search your feelings," Vader said, stepping into view at the very top of the tower, lightsaber held tightly in his right hand. "The answer lies within you."

Starkiller stared up at his former Master. What did he have that none of the other clones did?

He remembered:

"How long this time?"

"Thirteen days. Impressive. "

And he remembered:

"The Force gives me all I need."

"The Force?"

"The dark side. I mean."

Slowly a dark understanding began to form. All the duels, all the tests, all the torturous mind games, had been to ensure his survival against every opponent - bar one. His Master. In a sense, they were still playing out the first time they had faced each other in combat.

He didn't remember the early days of his apprenticeship, when the memories of his parents had been strong and the young boy he had once been resisted Vader's absolute authority, but he was sure the battle had been even then, psychological. The battle would never cease until one of them won.

Was this what it was like to be a Sith? Forever at war with one's own Master?

"Your training made me strong enough to escape you," he said, "not obey you. "

"Yet here you are." Darth Vader's words fell on him like heavy weights. "My most deadly creation."

"You lie!" Starkiller jumped up to the next platform, passion stirring him to action. "You never wanted this. You can't have. Once Juno has been rescued, your facility will be destroyed. You with it, if there's any justice."

"There is no justice, " said Darth Vader, watching him ascend. "Only power."

Vader made no move to defend himself when Starkiller reached the very top of the cloning tower. Determined to prove him wrong, Starkiller didn't waste time announcing his intentions. He just lunged. Only at the very last moment did Vader raise his blade to block the blow, and even then the move seemed almost casual, disinterested. Starkiller struck again, with both lightsabers. Vader blocked one blade and used telekinesis to throw the other off target. The platform buckled and twisted, sending Starkiller flying.

He rolled and leapt, and came up swinging. Covered in blood - the blood of his fellow clones - and knowing Juno was close, he fought his former Master with single-minded focus. Vader was still testing him; he sensed that more and more keenly, with every passing moment, but to what purpose he still couldn't tell. Vader himself fought more cautiously than he had on the Death Star, the last time they had dueled in earnest. His armor seemed to have improved, too; it was less vulnerable to lightning than it had been just days before.

Vader threw wrecked platforms and cloning rubes at him, while he scored three slashes to the Dark Lord's cape in return. They circled the top of the cloning tower, striking and assessing, then striking again.

Starkiller swore that he would not give in to anger or frustration. If that was what Darth Vader wanted, he wasn't going to get it. The only emotion he would give in to was love.

Finally, Starkiller saw an opportunity. They were exchanging rapid blows along the edge of the buckled platform, blades swinging so fast they were visible only as blurs. Vader's defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller's, every time. He may have defeated Vader before, but Vader had learned from that mistake. He knew the measure of his former apprentice now.

But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it.

The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike.

Juno lying limp in his arms.

The vision struck him as powerfully as a physical blow. When he tried to push it aside, it returned with even more power.

Juno - dead.

He reeled in shock. Was this what would happen if he killed Vader? He had no choice but to believe so. But if he didn't kill Vader, how would he ever get to her?

The Dark Lord took advantage of his momentary confusion. He delivered a telekinetic shove that threw Starkiller backward off the platform and down to the lower levels of the ruined cloning tower. The blow and the fall had the welcome effect of clearing his mind. He turned in midair and landed on his feet. An instant later he was leaping upward again, his face a mask of determination.

Whatever happened to Juno, he saw no choice but to confront Darth Vader. The Dark Lord had killed his father, betrayed him at least once, and would kill Juno the very second she was of no more use to him. Their time of reckoning was long overdue.

The attainment of his true mastery of the Force - the destiny Darth Vader so often threatened him with - could only come one way. He saw that now. His final test was to kill Vader himself.

When he reached the top level, Vader was disappearing behind the doors of another turbolift. Starkiller ripped them open, but the cab had already begun to ascend. He had no intention of waiting for it to return. He braced himself on the inside of the shaft, and jumped.

One powerful leap saw him rising almost as fast as the cab. He reached telekinetically for its underside, and caught it. When the cab started to slow, he approached close enough to physically hold on to the underside, and raised one lightsaber to cut his way through.

The cab jerked to a halt. Vader was already gone by the time Starkiller emerged through a circular hole in the floor. Outside the cab wasn't another cloning tower. A short ramp led up to the roof of the spire itself, currently out of sight. Starkiller emerged from the cab, a tightness in his chest telling him that Juno was very close now. Very close indeed. She was exactly where he had last seen her.

It was raining.

The dome had been breached. All around him, the fight between the Rebels and Imperials waged on. Wrecked starfighters tumbled from the sky in flames. Debris gushed out of wounded frigates. A listing Star Destroyer vented air and bodies in huge quantities. Across the facility, dozens of dark columns of smoke formed a thick veil of carbonized ash, choking the air. A constant high-frequency pulsation of energy weapons came from all around him, punctuated by the occasional bass explosion. It was impossible to tell who was winning.

Wary of an ambush, Starkiller walked up the ramp. As he did so, Darth Vader came into view. The Dark Lord stood with his lightsaber extinguished in the center of the roof. Behind him, partially obscured by their lord, were four stormtroopers with weapons held at the ready.

"Get out of my way," he said.

"Your memories betray you," Darth Vader said.

"They make me who I am."

"You must turn your back on them in order to become who you will be."

Starkiller stopped in his tracks. Was that why Darth Vader burdened him with everything the original Starkiller had been - to demonstrate his strength and commitment by dismissing it, his former self with it? Or was there still some other motive that he couldn't discern?

Of only one thing was he certain. He wouldn't turn his back on Juno for any incentive.

"Never," he said.

"Then she will die."

Darth Vader stepped aside, revealing Juno in shackles. He gestured, and the four stormtroopers surrounding her raised their weapons and fired as one.

[...]

When Darth Vader walked onto the roof, the stormtroopers stood to immediate attention. Juno straightened, too, but not out of respect. She didn't know what was coming, but she swore she would be ready for it. The strange sounds coming from below - the screams and clash of lightsabers - had encouraged her to hope that it would be Starkiller who came to her first, but that was dashed now. If he was dead, then Vader would surely have no reason to keep her alive.

Her guards' comlinks chattered too faintly for her to make out the words. Orders, she assumed, from the Dark Lord. They nodded and took new positions, two on either side of her. Then they all turned to face their Master, and he turned his back on them.

For a second, the world paused. The fighting around the spires seemed to lessen. Even the conflict in the sky grew still. She felt as though everyone in Kamino was looking in her direction - although surely, she knew, they didn't even see her. It was all about Vader and Starkiller - if the man she had loved was still alive.

Footsteps came up the ramp. She strained against her bonds, but Vader was directly in her line of sight. She couldn't see past him.

She could hear, though, and she would recognize his voice under any conditions, just like the Rogue Shadow.

"Get out of my way," he said to Vader.

"Your memories betray you."

"They make me who I am."

"You must turn your back on them in order to become who you will be."

"Never, " he said.

Vader stepped to one side, and past the swirling of his cloak, Juno saw him - Starkiller - and for an instant she didn't see the blood all over him or the tattered state of his flight uniform. All she saw was his eyes. And they in turn saw nothing but her.

"Then she will die," Vader said, raising one hand in a signal to her guards.

They raised their weapons, took aim, and fired.

It happened so fast she barely had time to flinch. Vader had been keeping her alive for so long now that it didn't seem entirely real that he would dispose of her so suddenly. She jerked forward as far as the shackles allowed her, straining to get away. Every muscle in her body tensed in readiness.

The weapons' muzzles flashed...

...and at that very instant a massive force struck her and the guards, flinging her backward so hard she thought her chains might break her wrists. The stormtroopers effectively disappeared, swept off the top of the spire in an instant. The shots they had fired all missed, deflected by the powerful force, although one burned her right cheek as it went by. The four energy bursts followed wild trajectories, outward across the crowded sky.

"Juno!"

Her shackles fell to the ground with a heavy clatter.

Alive but winded, she couldn't reply. She could barely even believe she was alive. She had caught just the fringe of the push that had killed the guards, and she knew that even so she had almost been killed herself.

A different force gripped her, one no less powerful than the first, but aimed at her, not at anything else. It gripped her cruelly about the throat and lifted her so her feet barely touched the ground.

"Bow before me," said Vader to the man she loved.

Starkiller took a step forward. The force gripped her even more tightly, closing her windpipe. She choked, kicking out and finding no ground at all beneath her now. Her hands pulled at her throat, but there was nothing there to grip, and no way to fight it.

"Juno!"

She heard the furious despair in Starkiller's voice, and understood that he was fighting for her, and losing.

"Bow before me," Vader repeated, "or she dies."

Don't, she wanted to say. Don't do it. You've been down that path before. You know where it leads you. But she couldn't speak. She could barely even see him. Black dots were crowding out her vision as her oxygen-starved optic nerve began to fail. Don't let him trick you again.

He couldn't possibly hear her, but she suspected it wouldn't make any difference. In his shoes, she would be tempted to give in, too. After all they had been through, after all they might have been but had been denied, they at last had a second chance. Arguably that was worth more than any political movement or philosophy. So long as they survived, their love would survive. Nothing else mattered.

She understood, but she felt no relief as Darth Vader's terrible grip loosened and she fell painfully to the ground. Cool air rushed into her lungs. She coughed as though retching, feeling pain all along her windpipe.

Over the sound of her hacking and wheezing, she heard two metallic clinks and looked up to see what had happened.

Starkiller had deactivated his lightsabers and thrown them at Vader's feet. They rolled across the rooftop, their residual hear making the raindrops steam.

Her vocal cords were red raw. Juno could only shake her head as Starkiller rook three steps forward, and went down on one knee at Darth Vader's feet.

"I'll do your bidding," he said. "Just promise me you'll never hurt her again."

"That, " said Vader, "depends entirely on you."

Starkiller bowed his head, and Juno fought the urge to weep. She understood the dark place from which his capitulation had come, but submission to Darth Vader was not the way to save her. That way lay nothing but more separation and death. And betrayal. And murder.

She had to find the strength somehow to free Starkiller - just as he, clone or original, had somehow fought his way back from the dead in order to find her again.

Her desperate gaze caught sight of one of Starkiller's lightsabers. It had rolled in her direction and lay just out of her reach. If she was quiet, she might just be able to reach it.

The equation was very simple, really. Once before, she had abandoned her entire life for Starkiller. She could easily abandon this one too if it meant saving him from the horrible fate he had just accepted, thinking that it would save her.

Vader's back was to her, and Starkiller's head was still bowed.

She raised herself to hands and knees and reached out for the lightsaber.

"You will find and kill General Kota," Vader said. "If you refuse, the woman dies."

Starkiller said nothing. Maybe he nodded, but Juno couldn't see him. Vader had placed himself firmly between them once again, symbolically as well as physically.

"You will return to me and give yourself to the dark side," Vader went on. "If you resist, she dies."

The warm metal hilt slid into Juno's hand. She lifted it gently, afraid of making any noise at all, and raised herself to her knees. This was the first time she had held a lightsaber. She knew all too well that it was probably going to be her last.

"And when your training is complete," Vader said, "you will hunt down and execute the Rebel leaders."

Still winded and aching from head to foot, Juno rose unsteadily to her feet, feeling for the lightsabers activation switch and hardly daring to take her eyes off Vader's back as she did so. They were less than two paces apart.

"If you fail, she dies. "

She pressed the activation switch at the same instant she lunged. The bright blue blade sprang to life with a startling hiss, but she didn't let herself be distracted. She had used vibroblades in her training days; she knew how to wield a sword. It was even simpler than the point-and-shoot quip about blasters.

She stabbed at Vader's back, taking the one chance she had left to reclaim her life with Starkiller.

For an instant, she thought it might actually work. Vader's attention was firmly on Starkiller, and the sounds of battle provided effective cover. What was one more energy weapon over the hundreds in play in the facility?

At the last instant, however, some arcane instinct must have warned him. He turned with inhuman speed. She could barely credit her eyes - black holes didn't spin so fast. The tip of Starkiller's lightsaber grazed the front of his chest panel, producing a shower of sparks. She felt no resistance.

Then he pushed her in exactly the same way Starkiller had pushed the stormtroopers. She felt as though the world moved out from under her, sucking all the air away with it. The lightsaber fell from her hand, and suddenly she was flying. Her head snapped forward, and the rain boiled around her. The air itself seemed to hurt, she was moving so fast. Vader receded into the distance with uncanny speed.

How far he pushed her, she couldn't tell. It seemed to last forever, but she knew she had to hit the ground sometime. She hoped it wouldn't be soon. Landing was going to hurt.

Something slammed into her from behind.

It did hurt.

The last thing she felt was rain falling into her open eyes. The last thing she saw were three lightsaber blades painting red and blue shapes against the encroaching black.

[...]

Starkiller ran past Darth Vader to where Juno lay broken on the edge of the cloning spire's roof. Horror and self-reproach filled his mind. He hadn't seen her crawling for the lightsaber; he hadn't sensed her desperate plan until the very last moment - and it was his alarm that had alerted Vader, he was sure of it. He and his former Master had reacted at the same time. If Starkiller had moved an instant faster, had a fraction more of a second to think the problem through, he would have pushed Vader just as Vader had pushed Juno, impaling him on the blade before it was whisked away. Instead, he had thought only of saving Juno - a plan, he feared, that might always have been doomed to failure.

He stopped her before she flew off the edge of the roof, at least, but the grisly crunch of bones when she landed was unmistakable. Her head was bent at an impossible angle, and her eyes didn't track him as he ran toward her.

"Juno!"

A black-gloved hand grabbed his shoulder. He pulled away, howling with rage. His fallen lightsabers snapped into his hands and came instantly to life. With both blades moving in tandem, he struck out at his former Master using all his strength, all his rage, all his grief. Darth Vader blocked the blow, but only just. Starkiller pushed, and the Dark Lord stumbled backward.

Instead of pursuing the attack, Starkiller went to go to Juno, but once again Darth Vader stood in his path.

"Get out of my way."

"Your feelings for her are not real," Vader said, not moving.

"They are real to me."

Starkiller attacked the Dark Lord again, but this time he was the one driven back.

With a sense of piercing despair, he saw exactly how the fight would go. He and his former Master would dance like marionettes while Juno lay dying - if she wasn't already dead - and the war raged around them, unchecked by this minor tragedy. In the context of the galaxy's suffering, Juno was just one freedom fighter who had died that day - one among many on Kamino alone. Only she hadn't given her life in combat or to save someone less fortunate than herself. She had been snuffed out thanks to the manipulations of one single tortured man, a man whose stubbornness would never allow him to give up, admit fault, or compromise.

Starkiller knew nothing about the Dark Lord's origins, but he knew what he had become. More monolith than man, his shadow bestrode the Empire, casting darkness wherever it fell. But what was the source of that scourge? What twisted psychology had brought him to where he stood now - risking his life to prevent the clone of his failed apprentice from coming near the body of the woman he had loved?

Sudden understanding burst in Starkiller's mind. This was what Darth Vader had wanted all along. He had been right to fear that Juno was in danger, but not just from clones like him - from Vader, who would use her death to destabilize Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair. Where Starkiller had seen hope, where Starkiller had been willing to sacrifice his own destiny to give the woman he had loved a chance to live, his former Master had seen only opportunity for betrayal - for without Juno, what did Starkiller have left to live and fight for? He had no family, friends, or allies. Juno was always intended to be the catalyst for his downfall. Her precipitous attack had merely brought the critical moment forward.

Starkiller saw things very differently. It wasn't Juno who had to die to complete Starkiller's training. It was Darth Vader himself, and he had brought this moment upon himself. Had he been content to let Starkiller go, none of this would have happened. Were he dead or freely searching for Juno, either way, he would never have willingly come back to Kamino. He would have gone anywhere else, and never returned.

Darth Vader simply wouldn't let go. The massive cloning exercise itself was proof of that. He had raised Starkiller to be a monster, and he would let nothing get in the way of achieving that outcome. Not even Starkiller's own death. Even if it took a thousand reincarnations and the death of trillions of innocent people, Darth Vader would not give up. His persistence, his unwillingness to accept defeat, was both his greatest strength and his greatest weakness.

All the clones were destroyed. As far as Starkiller knew, he was the last one left - so that was one vision averted, at least. No matter what happened, no version of him would hill foul of Darth Vader's vile plan now.

They fought like the Sith Lords of old, raging back and forth across the roof of the spire, uncaring what happened around them. Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him. Neither would capitulate. Neither would be the first to break. Their wills were locked.

They broke apart, lightsabers hissing in the ceaseless rain. Lightning split the sky into a thousand jagged shapes. Thunder rolled. Neither had noticed the battle fading around them.

"Let me go," Starkiller said, sounding much calmer than he felt. His heart was pounding, and his lungs burned. "You've taken everything from me. You must see that I will never serve you now."

"You are wrong. I have given you everything."

"This?" He gestured at Juno's inert form. He couldn't tell if she was breathing, but he still held out a distant hope. "You have done nothing for me."

"It is our destiny to destroy the Emperor. You and me, together."

There it was, Starkiller thought. That promise again. Surely Darth Vader could see that it meant nothing now, after so many times offered in the past, and none of them fulfilled?

Unless... A deeper layer of understanding presented itself. Unless Darth Vader felt exactly the same as he did.

What lengths had the Emperor, Darth Vader's Master, gone to in order to create him? And how far would Darth Vader go to get revenge? To attain his own destiny as a Sith?

"The Rebels want to destroy the Emperor," Starkiller said. "Why not work with them rather th-?"

Vader attacked before he could finish the sentence, a blistering combination of blows that left Starkiller on his back foot. Clearly he had hit a very deep nerve. For a fleeting moment, the plan had seemed almost inspired. With Darth Vader on Kota's side, what couldn't the Alliance accomplish?

But it was a dream. The Rebels would never trust the Emperor's apprentice, and Vader was making it very clear that he wanted no part of it either. The vehemence of his response left no doubt about that.

Starkiller found himself backed up almost to the edge of the cloning spire's roof. One more step, and he would fall, and to fall would give Vader the high ground. That might not result in his death, but it would certainly end the fight.

It needed to end now, or else it might never end.

Blow after blow rained on him, forcing him back. There had to be a way to free himself and avenge Juno at the same time... but a stalemate seemed unavoidable. Any move he made was sure to lead him to an indefensible position.

Then it occurred to him. An indefensible position was exactly what he needed.

He lunged. Darth Vader saw him coming and swiped with unbearable strength, sending Starkiller's left lightsaber flying in pieces. Starkiller lunged again, and his right lightsaber joined his left. He fell back, beaten, and stared up at his former Master.

"This is your last chance," Vader said, standing over him with the unwavering tip of his lightsaber pointed directly at Starkiller's chest.

Starkiller stared up at the black mask, sure of two things. Vader didn't want to kill him, but not out of mercy or sympathy for his lot. The Dark Lord had invested far too much time and energy in re-creating his former apprentice, and he wouldn't want to throw all that away. Not when he seemed on the verge of victory.

Juno was dead or dying. Starkiller was disarmed and helpless.

Any rational being would at least consider Vader's offer.

The second thing Starkiller knew was: The best way to beat Darth Vader is to let him think he's won.

Thinking of Wedge Antilles, he said, "I make my own chances."

With both hands he sent a wave of lightning into the sparking gash Juno had made in Vader's chest plate.

The Dark Lord staggered backward, transfixed by the unexpected retaliation. Starkiller leapt to his feet and followed him, keeping up the lightning attack and using telekinesis to rip Vader's lightsaber from his temporarily weakened fingers. Sheers of energy spread our across the wet rooftop. Smoke and steam rose up in a tortured spiral. The grating whine of Vader's respirator rook on a desperate edge.

He went down on one knee. Starkiller stood over him. Vader's lightsaber swept into his former apprentice's hand. The blade came to rest at his throat.

Starkiller stared into the black mask, breathing heavily. One twitch of the blade and Vader would be dead at last.

12:

The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization wrote:Then it occurred to him. An indefensible position was exactly what he needed.

He lunged. Darth Vader saw him coming and swiped with unbearable strength, sending Starkiller's left lightsaber flying in pieces. Starkiller lunged again, and his right lightsaber joined his left. He fell back, beaten, and stared up at his former Master.

"This is your last chance, " Vader said, standing over him with the unwavering tip of his lightsaber pointed directly at Starkiller's chest.

Starkiller stared up at the black mask, sure of two things. Vader didn't want to kill him, but not out of mercy or sympathy for his lot. The Dark Lord had invested far too much time and energy in re-creating his former apprentice, and he wouldn't want to throw all that away. Not when he seemed on the verge of victory.

Juno was dead or dying. Starkiller was disarmed and helpless.

Any rational being would at least consider Vader's offer.

The second thing Starkiller knew was: The best way to beat Darth Vader is to let him think he's won.

Thinking of Wedge Antilles, he said, "I make my own chances."

With both hands he sent a wave of lightning into the sparking gash Juno had made in Vader's chest plate.

13:

The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization wrote:Barely a minute into the dive, Starkiller knew he had to move. Nebulon-B frigates weren't designed for rapid reentry. Anything over eight hundred kilometers an hour risked tearing off control vanes and external sensors - and the Salvation was already doing far in excess of that.

The ship shook and thundered. Strange screeching noises ran from nose to tail, as though it might tear apart at any moment. It would physically hold together long enough - he was sure of that, but the controls in the bridge were already approaching useless. The main display was full of static. He could barely make out the planet, let alone the location he was aiming for.

He needed a better vantage point if he was going to pull this off.

That he was effectively riding in a giant metal coffin was an additional thought he tried to suppress.

The ship could fly itself for a short time. He had patched the navicomp into what remained of targeting computers, leaving him reasonably certain that it could point and thrust effectively while his hands were off the controls. He didn't want to leave it long, though, so he ran for the exit and headed upward as fast as he could, taking turbolift shafts and passages cur by the bounty hunter wherever he could. He ignored bodies, personal effects, fires - everything. Where doors or bulkheads lay in his path, he telekinetically ripped them aside and kept running.

The ship lurched beneath him as he entered the upper decks. That, he presumed, was the result of the primary forward laser cannon being ripped away by the rising atmospheric friction. Its center of gravity perturbed, the ship began to sway from side to side. He tried not to imagine superheated air boiling up through the infrastructure from the hole left behind. He would be exposed to the same soon enough.

He reached the freshwater tanks and began moving horizontally, toward the rear rather than forward. When he reached the surgery suite - even more of a bloody mess than it had been before - he headed upward again, to where the short-range communications array protruded from a bulge on the frigate's upper fore section.

He could hear the air rushing past as he approached the outer hull. It sounded like a mad giant screaming.

The ship lurched again, but less noisily this time. The rupture was more distant - probably the static discharge vanes on the aft section, he decided. That would rob the ship of even more stability.

Even as he thought that, the Salvation began slewing from side to side.

"Hang in there, " he told the ship. "I'm coming. "

He found a maintenance ladder leading to an air lock and leapt up it in two bounds, blowing the inner hatch as he came. He could feel a wild drumming from the far side of the outer door. The ship was moving so fast now that unexposed flesh wouldn't last a microsecond. He would have to rely on a Force shield to keep him safe. A single lapse in concentration would be the end of him.

He took a second to compose himself.

For Juno.

Then he raised a hand and telekinetically burst through the outer hatch.

Instantly the world was fire. The air around the ship consisted of a blinding plasma, hotter than any ordinary flame. He forced his way into it, bracing himself against metal rungs that had turned instantly red on exposure to the outside. His eyes narrowed to slits in order to make out even the nearest outline. He could barely see the fingers in front of his face.

He didn't need to see. The Force guided him, move by move, out onto the hull, where he braced himself with his back to the short-range array and turned to face forward. Like Kota, he would see without eyes.

A trembling shape up and to his left chose that moment to give way, showering molten fragments all along the spine of the ship. The primary array was no great loss: he couldn't have heard anyone anyway over the racket in his ears. But the forward turbolasers and primary sensor unit, the next two chunks to go, were more of a concern. The ship was seriously unbalanced now. It shuddered underfoot, pulling wildly in different directions. If he was going to prevent it slipping into an uncontrollable rumble or rearing apart, he had to act quickly and decisively.

This was where it got difficult. He needed to maintain the Force shield against the sort of hear he might find in the outer layers of a star. He also had to keep in mind the target ahead - a target he couldn't see through the plasma, but had to hit square-on or else the planetary shield generators wouldn't fail. No matter what happened, he had to fly straight.

Starkiller took a deep breath. The cool trapped air behind the shield would last long enough, he hoped. He had been too worried about frying to consider suffocating to death.

He raised his hands and spread his fingers wide. His eyes closed tightly against the fiery brightness of the plasma. With each bucking and shaking of the ship beneath him, he encouraged himself to ride with it instead of fighting it. He was part of the ship, not a passenger. He was the ship, not a reckless pilot guiding it to destruction.

In the same way that he could feel his fingers and toes, his mind seeped outward into the metal and plastoid of the frigate, until every joint and weld, every porthole and deck became part of his sense of being. There was no line anymore between Starkiller and the Salvation. They were one and the same being, from the perspective of the Force.

He raised his right arm, and the ship followed the movement, listing slowly and heavily to starboard. Some of the headlong shuddering faded, as though it were grateful to have someone at the helm again. Even the wind's shrieking seemed to ebb.

Something tore away at aft of the ship, and he bent his knees slightly to absorb the shock.

The Salvation steadied, found a new center of gravity, and roared on.

Confident that his vast metal charge was now under control, he cast his mind outward. He was shocked by how far he had fallen. The Salvation must have punctured the planetary shield itself some time ago, and he simply hadn't noticed in all the turbulence. Now the cloud cover was less than a hundred meters below and coming up quickly. Behind the Salvation, a long fiery wake stretched across the sky, trailed by starfighters, and, farther back, capital ships on both sides, coming through the hole in the shield. The generators below would soon repair the hole, if he didn't guide his hurtling missile correctly, leaving the Rebel ships on the inside trapped, with him.

Assuming he survived...

For Juno.

The frigate slammed into the clouds with a rearing sound. At that speed, individual droplets of water hit like thermal detonators. The Salvation's own shields were holding, barely, but even so it lost still more of its mass to the ongoing battering. Several lower decks peeled back and were swept away, including the bridge. Most of the short-range array was gone, leaving him with just the base to hold him steady. He clenched his hands into fists and willed the ship to keep going.

Something succumbed to the plasma with a flash. A bright spark tumbled in his wake - the secondary reactor he had spent so much energy saving from the giant droid. He ignored it. The bottom of the cloud layer was approaching, and with it would come his first clear glimpse of the shield generators.

The air became still and relatively quiet when the Salvation punched through the clouds. The extra friction had slowed the frigate somewhat, making it a more manageable beast. Starkiller opened his eyes and discovered that he could see over the bulge of the forward decks to his destination. Perhaps some of the hull had been ripped away there, too.

The cloning facility lay spread out ahead of him. Had he wanted to, he could have hit it dead-center and wiped it off the face of Kamino. And had Juno not been inside, he would have been tempted. He felt no sentimental attachment to the place of his rebirth, and if there was any chance of taking out Darth Vader with it, all the better.

His sole target, however, was the shield generator buildings, and at last he saw them, as clear as they had seemed from the bridge, directly ahead.

Carefully, wary of putting too much strain on an already overtaxed chassis, he nudged the Salvations nose down. If he came in low and hit the ocean first, he could concentrate the damage to one location. If he overreached by so much as a degree, he might miss the ocean completely and scrape a long, fiery line right through the heart of the facility.

The Salvation resisted. He pushed harder. The nose descended and held there for ten seconds, strain echoing all through the ship. It wasn't made for anything like this. Nothing larger than a starfighter was. Neither was he.

With a bone-jarring crack, the spine connecting fore and aft sections of the frigate snapped clean through. Starkiller reached out with the Force, trying desperately to keep the two pieces together, but nothing could be done. They were already moving on slightly different trajectories. Air and debris sprayed from the great wound that separated them, providing entirely unpredictable thrust.

Groaning, juddering, the fore section began to lift again. Starkiller didn't fight it. With so much mass already stripped from it, the damage it would do when it hit was negligible. The rear was the priority. The heavy engines and main reactor continued powering forward on the trajectory it had originally been following. Was that the right trajectory or not? Starkiller anxiously studied its fall, projecting it forward to the best of his senses.

It looked good. He felt positive about it. Keeping an eye on the stubby rear section as it passed under him, he braced himself for impact. Barely a minute remained now. If he survived the crash, he would soon know whether he was right or not.

Ahead, a series of cloning towers loomed, standing as upright and tall as wroshyr trees on Kashyyyk. The fore section he stood upon was going to come down among them, doing a considerable amount of damage in the process. Starkiller didn't mind. Until their memories were activated, clones weren't truly alive; they were little more than meat in suspended animation. And the technicians attending them were servants of the Empire, and therefore viable targets. Some of them, perhaps, were responsible for his birth, if clone he truly was, and for their complicity in Vader's twisted plans. He smiled as his fiery steed descended toward them, imagining them fleeing in the face of the meteor as it grew large in the sky.

He could actually see tiny long-necked figures running through the complex, white-armored stormtroopers resolutely standing at their stations, and a black-robed figure looming high above them all, watching him approach.

Vader.

Below and slightly ahead, the engines struck the surface of the sea, sending a wave of superheated steam radiating outward along the wave tops.

Starkiller couldn't take his eyes off his former Master. He was right in his path, and not even moving! For a moment Starkiller couldn't understand why - until, next to Vader, bound in shackles and so small he had barely noticed her, he saw-

Juno.

A huge eruption heralded the impact of the engines into the side of the shield generators. The sky and sea convulsed. A shock wave spread through the facility, making the cloning towers sway. The fore section of the Salvation rolled to starboard, but not by enough to miss the cloning towers. Its terminus was fixed.

Just seconds remained before the Salvation's fore section hit Kamino. The facility was in close focus ahead of him, and he imagined he could see Juno's eyes widening on seeing him, haloed with his Force shield on top of her precious ship. Did she know it was him, or did she wonder at this strange apparition? Did she imagine that he was her death coming at last, from the skies instead of Darth Vader's hand?

Starkiller closed his eyes. He didn't have time to wonder what was going through her mind. He had to think of something fast, or Juno was going to die.

There was only one thing he could do, and although he knew he wasn't likely to survive, he didn't hesitate. What was death when the love of his former life was at stake? Besides, anything was possible. Dying, as he had thought once before, always seemed to bring out the best in him.

With his mind and all the power of the Force, Starkiller embraced what remained of the frigate beneath him - and blew it into a billion pieces.

[...]

Juno was hypnotized by the fiery blaze in the sky. Ever since it had broached the cloud cover, two things had become clear. It was a ship, a big ship, and it was going to hit the facility. The roar it made vied with thunder for loudest sound in the sky. Lightning scattered from the disturbed clouds in its wake.

Then the falling ship had split in two, with one half powering down at a steeper angle, and the other continuing onward. Only then had she realized that the second one was coming right for her.

"Was this part of your plan?" she asked Vader, who still stood, unmoving, beside her.

He didn't respond. Neither did he make any move toward the ramp that might take him to safety. Maybe, she thought, he had other means of protecting himself, means that neither she nor the stormtroopers possessed. She could see that they were getting nervous, too. The fiery balls grew brighter and brighter until they were almost too painful to look at. She refused to avert her eyes.

The first came down hard and fast, striking a well-defended portion of the facility outside the dome immediately surrounding her. There was a bright flash of light. The boom followed later, along with a rising sensation that she assumed was the shock wave rolling through the flexible foundations of the ocean-bound facility. She could see the cloning towers swaying from side to side. A vast column of flash-boiled steam and wreckage rose up into the sky. Hot, damp air rushed outward in its wake.

Still the other fragment of the ship came toward her. Seconds remained before it hit - not long enough to think anything coherent, barely time even to observe what was happening. The stricken ship was glowing red, with the last shreds of plasma still clinging to it like flames. Its class was almost unrecognizable, but she made out stumps that might once have been a communications array on the upper port side. That made it a Nebulon-B frigate, one of many EF76s in the service of either the Empire or the Rebel Alliance. It could have been any one of them.

So why, then, did she feel a cold stab of certainty in her gut that this was none other than the Salvation?

Her own ship was going to kill her.

The irony wasn't lost on her.

At the last instant she made out a tiny human figure standing on the upper hull. The flames and rushing wind swept past him, as though he were impervious to their touch. His arms were upraised in defiance and his head was tipped back so she couldn't see his face. But she knew. Just as she knew that it was the Salvation, she knew it was him.

He would come for her in flames and smoke, wreaking destruction all around.

Despite the apparent certainty of her death, she smiled. Either he would save her - in which case there was nothing to worry about - or he wouldn't, and she didn't want to live anyway.

The ship was almost upon them when the figure brought his hands down in a fierce, pounding motion, and the last solid fragment of the Salivation exploded into fiery pieces.

She had to close her eyes. The conflagration was too intense, and the sound was that of worlds ending. The cloning tower kicked beneath her. She was momentarily afraid that she might be falling with it into the sea. But then she was rising again, and she understood that the structure had survived, somehow, and so had she.

Her eyelids flickered, braving the brightness that only slowly faded around her. A cloud of hot metallic fragments was spreading across the city. Dense splinters rained from it, hissing where they landed. Heavier fragments struck with more substantial thuds, near and far. None struck her. The rain ceased for a moment, and then returned, settling the cloud of dust still further. Of the Salvation, nothing at all remained.

Darth Vader lowered the hand he had risen to shield his helmet and took stock around him. Juno did the same. Fires blazed in the wreckage where the rear half of the Salvation had come down. Alarms sounded through the facility, loud enough even for Juno's blast-numbed ears to hear them. Ash was settling on every horizontal surface and forming a thick, gray sludge.

Above, the clouds, already disturbed by the Salvation's fiery passage, were being torn apart by a new outrage. Starfighters and capital ships powered down from orbit in large numbers, dodging and firing at one another as they went. Juno recognized more frigates, and dozens of Headhunter, Y-wing, and TIE fighters. There were bombers, cruisers, even Star Destroyers bringing up the rear. An all-out war was taking place above Kamino, between Imperial and Alliance forces, and it, too, was growing ever nearer.

"I ask again, is this part of the plan?"

Instead of answering, Vader stalked off, waving for the stormtroopers to remain where they were. When he was gone, they stationed themselves several paces away from her and carefully watched the perimeter around them. High above their heads, the secure facility's dome began to close.

Juno coughed and wished she could wipe her eyes clear of ash. Her ship had blown itself practically to atoms; she had seen it happen, right in front of her. There was no chance at all that Starkiller could have survived. He had been riding right on top of it.

But she knew as well as they did that this wasn't the end. He had come back from the dead sufficient times now to make anything possible. Anything at all.

[...]

Starkiller's eyes jerked open. Where was he? All was dark around him. He smelled smoke and his body felt as though it had been hit by an asteroid. The last thing he remembered was tightening the Force shield around him and destroying the Salvation so it wouldn't kill Juno. He was somewhere on Kamino, then. But his mind remained full of strange images and feelings that he had never experienced before.

14:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhOMe5NPfeI&t=0m41s

15:

https://youtu.be/MhOMe5NPfeI?t=590

16:

The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization wrote:He sought strength from within himself, and pushed outward with all his might. Clones went flying. The empty rubes from which they had emerged shattered into millions of pieces. Platforms buckled and fell with reverberant crashes. The interior of the cloning tower rang as though struck with a giant hammer. Every muscle in his body shook with the effort of it.

The echoes faded, and he felt a peculiar kind of quiet descend.

The air was misted red, and every surface was slick with blood. He tasted it on his tongue and smelled it in his nose. His blood. A veritable ocean of it.

17:

The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization wrote:He maintained a defensive pose, breathing rhythmically and deeply, regaining his strength. The tips of his lightsabers shook. He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being.

Nothing moved. Slowly, incredulously, he began to believe that it was over.

They were all dead. He had destroyed every last one of them. He was the only one left-of the many Darth Vader had created to do his bidding.

"Why me?" he asked the silent cloning tower.

"Search your feelings, " Vader said, stepping into view at the very top of the tower, lightsaber held tightly in his right hand. "The answer lies within you."

18:

The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization wrote:He shied away from both memory and contemplation. There was no point wasting energy on either when his very survival was at stake. How many days he had been down the pit he no longer knew, but in that time he had neither eaten nor slept. His enemy wasn't physical in the sense of a foe he could strike down or manipulate. It was himself-his fallible body, his weak mind, his faltering spirit. He would endure and emerge whole, or never emerge at all.

"You're alive," said Darth Vader.

At the voice of his former Master, Starkiller looked up, blinking against the light. Vader's boots were three meters above him, barely visible behind the lights and the grate that separated the pit from the dark room beyond. The Dark Lord loomed like a shadow, a black hole in the shape of a robed man.

Starkiller's throat worked. It was so dry he could barely talk at all.

"How long this time?"

"Thirteen days. Impressive."

19 and 20: See scan 11.

God that formatting though.

Nice post

@The Apprentice Really good post

Meatpants wrote:Nice post

Can't tell if serious.

@xolthol Thanks.

That was genuinely amazing tbh.

@Azronger @The Ellimist @DarthAnt66 @Bart: BTW, I'd suggest a cleanup of the nonsense on the previous page.

Very good post. 

@AlexSerp Cheers.

The Apprentice wrote:@AlexSerp Cheers.

good post :3

Damn, I got clapped. I blame the alcohol I consumed while writing my post.

Meatpants (away) wrote:Damn, I got clapped. I blame the alcohol I consumed while writing my post.

Concession accepted.

1. ALL HIS POWER IN THE FORCE Cont.

As I have foreseen, you've ignored large swathes of my arguments to focus on nitpicks for some cheap wins. Don't worry though, I'll be keeping a concession counter. You'll see this regularly, and it's easy to spot.

A. The weird side tangent that proves absolutely nothing?

1. Sidious was placed into a state of “desperation” by Galen advancing on him, which he is actively noted to be “fuelling” his lightning with. This not only shows Sidious was clearly going all out but also displays how Galen put Sidious into a state where he lost hope in his own victory, clearly highlighting Galen’s display as incredibly impressive. Moreover, if we’re going to perform insane over-analysis - which you have no right to berate me for given that your opener was essentially comprised of hyper-analysing obviously non-literal statements - we can look at the CollinsDictionary definition of the word “desperation”:

[...]

2. The Lightning Galen was defending against caused Sidious to experience “lascivious pain” indicating it breached his own defences, and while Galen wasn’t fully defending against the Lightning, mitigating the effect of an attack which bypassed Palpatine’s barrier is incredibly impressive.

I agree, Sidious was desperate...



That point of view being Galen's, since the passage you're referring to is from his POV. There isn't necessarily a problem with POV perspectives, but the problem here for you is that the total aggregate of sources override what Galen thought he saw. In other words, your entire argument literally hinges on Galen being correct about Sidious being desperate, but virtually every other piece of information we have points in the other direction.

Consider only moments before, Sidious had been toying with Galen, pretending to lose and prostrating himself as a weak, old and defenceless in order to turn Galen to the dark side. During the subsequent confrontation, Sidious throws his head back and howls in an overtly sexual way (lascivious by definition is an overt sexual display). We don't see this in any other confrontations where his life was on the line, like his battle with Yoda or Windu. Sure, he enjoys himself in the sense of how a Sith would, but when push came to shove in the Force battle Sidious didn't look like he was getting his dick sucked by a twi'lek stripper, he was worried. Harkening back to my original argument, Sidious found the time to gloat against Plagueis when he was in control, but that tune changed very quickly when he considered the prospect that Plagueis could return in a position to threaten him. Coming back to the topic, Galen wasn't mitigating Palpatine's attack or defending against it. As soon as he stepped in front of the Emperor it immediately tore through any defence he did have up, "Without hesitation, he stepped between Kota and the Emperor, taking the full brunt of the Sith lightning into his own body." So it was more like Galen having a moment of oneness that allowed him to retain consciousness through the pain. The only reason why Sidious was coming into contact with his own lightning was due to Galen literally walking up to him and joining hands, "Another staggering, painful step and the Emperor was within the apprentice's reach. With shaking fingers, he took the old man's bony shoulders in his hands and gripped them tight. The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations. The Emperor tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain." So Sidious only suffers his lightning after Galen comes into contact, after which the Emperor starts enjoying himself sexually.

This point is relevant to previous arguments - and will also assist with my rebuttals to you - but honestly serves as a good indicator of Galen’s power by itself.

How does this feat in any way serve as an indicator of Galen's base power by itself? I think you dropped the ball here massively. Galen entered a state of Oneness during his confrontation: 

"No!" the apprentice cried, dropping his defenses to strike one last time at the Imperials. Energy surged through him. He felt as though a star had blazed to life in his chest. Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child. His nerves were on fire. Streamers of light radiated from his skin. His bones glowed like radiant lava.

Distinguishing first between before/after he enters oneness, he fails to mitigate any of Sidious' lightning, he merely stands in front of it and finds he has the willpower to prevent himself from going unconscious (of course, there's no proof Sidious was using his full power, especially since he was toying with Galen only moments before). He then closes the distance and joins hands with the Emperor, at which point the Emperor obviously comes in contact with his own lightning, then proceeds to have an orgasm. Then, Galen goes into oneness and blows up right in front of the Emperor, causing literally no damage to the Emperor except for a light singe on his face. How exactly does this give an indication of Galen's power except the fact that he had an enlightened sense of purpose that allowed him to survive having his nerves completely destroyed and go into oneness? If anything, it just shows how powerful Sidious is relative to Galen, considering that Galen's oneness blast, the centre of which is virtually ON Sidious does nothing. 

And no, the "muh omnidirectional" argument doesn't convince anyone. A blast is at its most powerful at the centre, the resulting wave is merely the energy moving outwards from the central point and dissipating. If a nuclear bomb has x megatons of power, when it detonates it releases that x megatons at the centre point, from which it moves out, weakening. Sidious was literally on that blast, so he took 99% of it. 

Let's sum up the evidence for and against Sidious being desperate. For your side, we have Galen's POV that Sidious was desperate (who then had an orgasm right after that assessment). Against? Sidious had been toying with Galen moments before, has an orgasm during the confrontation, no sold Galen's oneness mega blast at point-blank range without injury (didn't go beyond body's potential either) and it's stated that Galen was "ultimately no match for Darth Sidious", which would include the entire fight and the oneness blast. So yeah, I'll take what the rest of the novel says plus OOU quotes over what Galen thinks desperate Sidious looks like. There's simply not enough evidence to support the position that Sidious was desperate. We also know that Galen was not mitigating or defending against Sidious' lightning at all. There's no gauge of Galen's base power from this example, and all it does is show how a being of Sidious' power level (Plagueis, when Sidious doesn't go beyond his body) can no sell Galen's oneness blast at point-blank.

B. Of Witwer, Ignoring Arguments and Nitpicking

SAM WITWER

MP put shade on Witwer’s credibility repeatedly throughout his post, without actually going into any detail on why Witwer is an unreliable source.

I never "put shade" on Witwer's credibility, I was merely relaying that other sources that have more authority than him contradict what he's said, thus making his comments extremely unlikely. Verbatim from my post: "The actual authority Witwer has as an aside, the claims that he has the potential to be the most powerful Force user ever is explicitly contradicted in the continuity." I then go on to provide two sourced arguments for why Sidious has more potential than Starkiller; one of which you addressed and one of which you completely ignored. You stated "According to Sidious Galen’s full potential is at least comparable to his own, he stated Galen could have been his “successor,” his “equal.”" To which I showed via a collection of sources, including big daddy Lucas himself that Sidious never intended to have an equal, only a puppet to help him rule the galaxy as his weapon, meaning that whatever Sidious tells Starkiller in the DS ending is just a lie (wow, Sidious being manipulative?). There was no response from you regarding this, so I'm assuming a concession.

*CONCESSION COUNTER: 1

Moving onto your defence of Witwer's statements,

1) They demonstrate a clear narrative intent that the game/novels were written with.

Prove it? You've yet to provide factual evidence that the clear narrative intent of the game/novels is Galen having Luke Skywalker-tier potential in the Force, especially since subsequent licensed content explains on multiple occasions that Galen was "ultimately no match for Darth Sidious."

2) His statements are published in an official SW magazine meaning they’re accepted into the continuity.

That doesn't make them any more credible. The opinions of the voice actors published in Insider don't have the same canonical authority as OOU quotes. Especially again since Witwer was also talking about how Vader was to be stronger than SK in TFUIII, how's that for intent? This isn't the time for one of your main arguments to be based on the opinions of the voice actor and an attempt to tie that opinion into the "clear narrative intent" of the games and novels that you've yet to provide evidence for. 

Absolutely nothing MP has posted regarding Galen’s potential has a shred of credibility, because he’s making arguments against what the creators have outlined.

You must have forgotten that you failed to respond to one of my two main arguments for Galen's potential, either that or you're handwaving it for whatever reason. You also yet again cite the "narrative intent" that you've yet to explain to us. 

TRUE POTENTIAL

This is a lol-worthy interpretation, absolutely nowhere does the quote even mention Galen’s Oneness blast. The full context is provided below:

The quote is straightforward: at some point after his early apprenticeship he manifested his true potential by unleashing the Force. When factoring the other material that's all available in my last post, it clearly means his oneness moment and exploding himself. 

The Vaylin quote isn't sufficient proof; getting "a taste of her full capabilities" isn't the same as "manifesting your true potential".

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And this proves he hit his full potential how exactly?

I've already explained this in my last post, and I'm not repeating myself. Go back to my previous posts and read it, then address my arguments rather than asking me to repeat my stuff. The sensation of bursting apart and its relation to overloading the body's midichlorians has been my core argument throughout this entire thing, and I went into it in quite a lot of detail. Address those points, because I'm directly tying that to the exact same sensation Starkiller felt. 

Why are we assuming that these candy bar quotes refer to Oneness Marek, and not base Marek? The wording doesn’t preclude them from doing so.

Are you calling quotes from Vehicles and Starships and The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia "candy bar quotes"? We follow the guidelines set on the forum, and quotes from these two sources are perfectly legitimate. And I don't see why these don't include Oneness Marek, "ultimately" kind of seals it. All things told, from start to finish, Starkiller was no match for the Emperor, even in Oneness. So Oneness Starkiller < TFU Sidious = TPM Sidious ~ Plagueis. Ergo, Starkiller is no match for Plagueis. We know for a fact that Luke Skywalker exploding in Oneness would kill Sidious, but since SK didn't, he clearly doesn't have close to the same potential.

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Did you miss the part where I basically admitted Galen’s applicable power is sh*t? The point wasn’t to hype up Early-Game Galen who lacks any control of his powers, but rather to hype up End-Game Galen who finally gains control of the power he’s built up over 15 years of rigorous training. Despite constantly mocking my first post on Discord you seem to have missed a few key details.

Yet this training has had zero impact on your argumentation so far, it's all about his power. Not to mention Plagueis' training is vastly superior anyhow, so it doesn't matter regardless.

C. TFU 1

STRAWMANS 

It’s amusing to see how you blatantly omitted the whole passage in favour of a single citation to favour Vader. The rest of the passage clarifies the context which allowed Vader to compete, that being that Galen doesn’t understand how to kill without drawing on his rage/desire for revenge (he only does so at the end of the fight) which he’s explicitly resisting in this instance, ergo he’s not fighting at his best - when he does he dominates Vader (2) - so trying to dismiss his insane potential based on comparisons to Luke in ESB, is completely and totally pointless.

This is ironic because you omitted the last sentence of my paragraph when you quoted it:

Galen is free of his master’s conditioning on Raxus Prime, and thus also in his confrontation with Vader. Despite this and a further boost in power during the duel, he still isn’t more powerful than Vader. At the onset, the duel is relatively even, “Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defences… The apprentice vowed not to give him one. He whirled and danced around his Master's defences, testing them to their limits.” Both men are struggling to gain an advantage over the other. Though after enlightenment, Galen gains an advantage in the lightsaber duel, penetrating Vader’s defences. He then proceeds to telekinetically ragdoll Vader:

The underlined is what you omitted. You've claimed that I "blatantly omitted the whole passage in favour of a single citation to favour Vader", then explained how Vader was only competing until Starkiller discovered a better way to kill. Except... that's exactly what my paragraph says. If you read closely, my argument on why Starkiller isn't more powerful than Vader isn't tied to the opening of the duel, it's part of a larger argument. Consider that the opening sentence of my next paragraph is "So does this prove that Galen is more powerful than Vader to the point where he can outright ragdoll his former master?" You've examined my paragraph in a vacuum and argued a strawman. I describe the onset of the duel, followed by a power boost from Galen that allows him to ragdoll Vader. You omit the part about the power boost and ragdolling, then claim I've omitted context to favour Vader over Galen (which isn't what I'm arguing). 



What my paragraph actually says is that Vader and Galen are fighting "relatively evenly", then Galen has his power boost and ragdolls Vader. The issue of my argument isn't on who was winning/losing the duel, it was focused on Galen's TK. Not at one point did I argue that Vader was the superior duelist to Galen in TFU 1; especially since the second half of the quote I provided from the novelisation talks about how Galen was testing Vader to his limits before the power boost. Nice strawman.

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So many excuses lmao. Do you think Sean Williams really sat there and had Galen dominate Vader in every fundamental area relevant to combat - both Force and sabers - yet had the thought process you’re outlining now i.e. Galen isn’t vastly more powerful?

Probably not. That's not my problem though, I'm merely referencing official source material that as practically as canonical as the game. That material says Galen's TK is disproportionately more potent than his base power level. That's not a bad faith assessment, it's just using the guidelines agreed to in the debate to point out a fact.

This is a misguided, bad faith attempt to dismiss SK’s performances, we don’t just ignore everything he’s done because of a largely unquantifiable prodigious talent with TK. I don’t think any character has ever shown to be utterly disproportionate with one power in combat to the degree you’re suggesting.

We don't ignore his feats with TK, he can do them whenever. That's not the point I'm trying to address, so let's stay on topic.

Regardless given that SK’s Lightning is also indicated to be more potent than his other powers (7), it seems more likely that because SK is a “primal” Force wielder, he’s better with more basic powers like TK and Lightning (rather than it simply being that he’s got TK tiers above his normal power and the rest of his abilities are sh*t like you’re suggesting), and thus his TK and Lightning are more than likely the greatest reflection of his raw power anyway (the subject of my opener) as they’re the easiest to master (instead of other more difficult abilities being indicative of his so-called “actual power”). That doesn’t mean his other powers are vastly below his TK and Lightning though unless you want to argue that Galen’s mastery is so bad that the only powers he’s got any degree with skill with are incredibly basic ones, and that he can’t even get up his other abilities to 75% of the power of his extra potent TK + Lightning, or that he could have ragdolled Palpatine.

I wholeheartedly agree; I also do not believe that Starkiller's TK or lightning is insanely more potent than his base Force power at all, but you're missing the point, which is that Starkiller's power in the Force relative to Vader is unquantifiable. He might only be mildly more powerful than Vader; combine that with savant abilities in TK and you can appear to be a lot more powerful.

Why is this relevant? Because we don't even know if Enlightened!Starkiller could have ragdolled a fresh TFU1 Vader. Consider that in a universe where one lightsaber wound typically means the end of the fight, Vader suffered three wounds, all "deep" cuts, "Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat...a second scored a deep wound across his black-clad shoulder. A third stabbed deep into his thigh." He's then literally shaking and can't even hold his lightsaber straight "Darth Vader reeled backward, servos whining in his injured limbs and lightsaber shaking." Not exactly an indication that Vader is putting up the best defence. It's only after this that he's ragdolled. So Enlightened!Starkiller dominating a deeply wounded and shaking Vader is not proof that he can ragdoll Vader at will; he needs to beat Vader down first. Consider also that the opening that started it all was a surprise to both of them, "Instead of pressing the attack, the apprentice stood his ground. Despite himself, he was as surprised as his former Master clearly was." This is despite base Starkiller already having a speed advantage over Vader, then receiving his boost in power; and even then Vader still actually reacted to the blow as well "Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat." 

And this is where I couldn't agree with you more, "That doesn’t mean his other powers are vastly below his TK and Lightning though..."; since this further shows that Starkiller is inexorably tied to Vader. You cannot prove that Starkiller could ragdoll a fresh Vader in TFU1 because when he did ragdoll Vader, it was after Vader had fought on for a period of time, then suffered three wounds and was shaking (weak defence). Whittling down someone then ragdolling is not the same as being able to just outright ragdoll at the start of the fight. So if Starkiller's TK and Lightning aren't that much better compared to his other powers (which you have argued), and he can't ragdoll TFU1 Vader, that means it's unlikely he's even much more powerful than Vader at all. He's better than Vader, but he also can't ragdoll him either, whereas we know Plagueis can because he's approximately as powerful as Sidious (who can ragdoll any incarnation of suit Vader without going beyond his body's potential). 

D. TFU2

EXHAUSTION

Citing this fight is useless because Starkiller was exhausted when he fought Vader - at his peak, he’d decimate him as will be elaborated on in the final segment of my post regarding Galen’s TFU 2 feats. 

It's time to educate you on the "exhaustion argument". You can't handwave the entire fight and claim Starkiller would just "decimate" Vader, but couldn't because he was exhausted yet also regaining his strength. 

The Force Unleashed 2 Novelisation wrote:He maintained a defensive pose, breathing rhythmically and deeply, regaining his strength. The tips of his lightsabers shook. He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being. He felt simultaneously cleansed and poisoned.

Galen has never felt so exhausted, yet he is also regaining his strength, feeling "simultaneously cleansed and poisoned". The problem with applying this exhaustion to the rest of the duel is problematic because, of course, Galen is regaining his strength as well. Consider that Dooku hits exhaustion in his duel against Anakin and Obi-Wan on the Invisible Hand, yet manages to rejuvenate himself and fight on, "He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him..." (ROTS:N). Briefly after, he uses "his last burst of dark power" to incapacitate Kenobi with a kick, following it up with another surge of energy to accelerate Kenobi's limp body. He then proceeds to take a boot to the face from Anakin and uses his "dark power" yet again to cushion his landing off the balcony, all while exhausted. Then, he washes the exhaustion away, "He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away." 

This isn't the only example; we also have Qui-Gon displaying incredible stamina despite being exhausted. On Tatooine, he was fully exhausted from his 40 second fight with Maul, yet on Naboo, Qui-Gon fights Maul with Obi-Wan for "several brutal minutes" (The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi) while taking the "brunt" of Maul's assault relative to his apprentice (Darth Maul Journal). At the tail end of this duel, the two Jedi are separated, and Qui-Gon faces Maul alone, "By the time Obi-Wan had recovered, Qui-Gon was in pursuit of Darth Maul, following him down the catwalk toward a small door at the far end of the power station. The Jedi Master went swiftly, legs and arms pumping, lightsaber flashing. He was worn and battered by now, close to exhaustion, but the Sith Lord was on the defensive at last, and he did not want to give him a chance to regroup." Several minutes are a lot longer than 40 seconds, yet Qui-Gon is still fighting all-out to keep Maul pressured. Sidious remarks "I suspect he [Qui-Gon] surprised Maul with his stamina." When the laser gates are up, Qui-Gon meditates for a few minutes, which allows him to replenish his reserves "He had found a fresh reserve of strength during his meditation..." (TPM: N) After pressing on Maul for a period of time, he begins to slow, "But he was beginning to weary now from carrying the battle alone. His strokes were not so vigorous as before his face bathed with sweat and taut with fatigue." (TPM: N) Despite exhausting rapidly, Qui-Gon holds his own for an extended period of time, and Maul ends up killing the Jedi with a hilt bash that even Nick Gillard, the choreographer of the fight, admits was underhanded (Link), implying Jinn could have held his own for a lot longer. Not to mention that Jinn's exhaustion and his inability to keep up with Maul is referenced an insane number of times in the source material, yet he keeps up in a high-intensity life-or-death lightsaber duel for several minutes and more, most of the time while exhausted and still kept up with his opponent, who's better than him in pretty much every way.

What's the difference in TFU2? Galen was exhausted from his fight with the clones, but he's also regaining his strength before his fight with Vader. This exhaustion is never referenced anywhere else in the source material, be it the novelisation or anything else for the rest of the protracted duel. The only other point of reference for Galen's physical condition is this: "His heart was pounding, and his lungs burned." But this is at the very tail end of the duel after a very protracted fight. I'm not convinced that an exhausted Starkiller regaining his strength scales down to Vader's level rather than the exhaustion making an impact on his peak performance. The best examples of this are again Dooku and Qui-Gon. Dooku was able to maintain his gap between Kenobi both before and during his exhaustion ("Greydolling" Kenobi both times), we don't see Dooku's normal combative performance drastically weaken when he's exhausted, in fact, he keeps it up as Anakin is getting even stronger. Qui-Gon's performance doesn't drop drastically when he hits exhaustion or the verge of exhaustion; his strength was "ebbing" on Tatooine, and he was seconds away from total exhaustion, yet Maul still can't find any opening from which to exploit, and on Naboo where Qui-Gon is more exhausted than that still doesn't let Maul past his guard until Maul uses an underhand move to temporarily stun him. So, again, I'm not convinced that Starkiller's exhaustion (despite the fact he's regaining his strength anyway) would be any different to Qui-Gon's or Dooku's in terms of how it affected his combative performance: it doesn't drastically drop down to Vader's level, since other Force users while exhausted don't just drastically drop down in performance. I'm not denying that Starkiller undertook a series of impressive showings that exhausted him before fighting Vader, but I also don't believe that the whole time he's fighting he's running on fumes and that if he was fresh he'd "decimate" Vader.

OTHER TFU 2 STUFF 

Then there’s also the matter of Vader specifically gearing his fighting style to defending against Starkiller:

Vader fighting more cautiously =/= gearing his fighting style to defending against Starkiller. The second quote says Vader learned from his "mistake", are we to take it the mistake was not knowing Galen's fighting style? That doesn't make sense. The quote additionally says "He knew the measure of his former apprentice now." Again, this doesn't really give off the impression that Vader has tooled his style specifically against Galen. Consider that Maul does the same with Qui-Gon "He found it on Tatooine, and there duelled with Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn. Though Jinn escaped, Maul was content that he had the measure of the man." (V&S) We wouldn't take that as meaning Maul geared his fighting style to counter Qui-Gon in the next duel. I don't find the quotes you've provided as compelling proof of your claim. Furthermore, wouldn't it go both ways? Starkiller should have a really good idea of how Vader fights, which the novel actually says "He may have defeated Vader before, but Vader had learned from that mistake. He knew the measure of his former apprentice now. But the same was true in reverse." Look who's "blatantly omitting" context now.

Even discounting the circumstances, your claim that Vader stonewalled Starkiller is still emphatically false, Galen hits Vader with Force Lightning earlier in the duel and would have struck him down if not for a timely vision of Juno’s death:

 I never claimed Vader stonewalled Starkiller, the fight goes back and forth multiple times. Stonewall meaning "delay or obstruct (a request, process, or person) by refusing to answer questions or by being evasive." (Google translate); "to be uncooperative, obstructive, or evasive" (Merriam-Webster). In the case of the SW universe, I would take stonewalling as meaning delaying someone as long as possible, as Bondara did against Darth Maul. Never did I claim Vader stonewalled Starkiller, only that Galen was unable to gain the advantage until he created an opening with his lightning.



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Also, given that you love other mediums, and consistently deferred to sources which contradict the novelization in your post, I’d like to point out that in virtually every depiction of the fight sans the Wii version of the game and the novelization Starkiller legitimately overpowers Vader in the final section of the fight: in the XBOX version of the game he blasts him into submission with Force Lightning (3), in the comic, he Force Pushes Vader mid duel before finishing him with Force Lightning (4), and in the DS version of the game he ragdolls Vader (5).

I never defer to other versions of the game in order to contradict the novelisation/s, I only use them as corroborating, secondary evidence. I'll take the novelisation as primary evidence.

E. Luke

All in all, any comparisons between Galen and ESB/ROTJ Luke are totally unjustified, they have no merit whatsoever due to the circumstances surrounding both Galen vs Vader fights.

I've already pointed out why this is wrong. In the case of the TFU1 fight, there is no evidence whatsoever that Enlightened!Galen could outright ragdoll Vader; a Galen with a huge power boost ragdolled a shaking, damaged Vader who took three deep cuts into his armour. There is no provable ragdoll gap. In TFU2, Galen was unable to slash past Vader's guard, and resorted to abusing Vader's weakness to lightning. Either way, the duel was long, and as I explained above, there's no evidence that exhaustion for Force users scales their augmentation down massively. In fact, you argue that "Starkiller is like >>>>>>>>>> Vader"; so you're essentially arguing that Starkiller's exhaustion takes away all those gaps. This is "emphatically false" since other examples of exhaustion don't show the same effects, plus it's just a plain cop-out to argue that Starkiller's exhaustion scaled him all the way down to being in Vader's ballpark (conveniently?). 

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This paragraph is pointless given that the Galen vs Vader segment of your post does not have any merit. Though regarding the fight, I feel the need to point out that Luke was on the losing end of the exchange, he performed well sure, but in the end, Vader was definitely the vast superior - they’re clearly on opposite ends of the same tier. Luke is completely exhausted from the first exchange in the Carbonite Freezing Chamber (6), meanwhile, at the end of the duel, Vader comes on “twice as powerful” as before and pushes Luke back. If Vader still has a plentiful supply of reserves left and Luke is on the verge of collapse, they’re clearly not close. This aligns with the entire thematic premise of ESB i.e. Luke wasn’t close to ready to face Vader, he can contend, but an accurate scale if we assume Vader’s musings on Ben vs Luke are accurate is probably something like this:

It's like you didn't even read and take in what I wrote. Compared to TFU2 Vader, this Vader has more mastery over himself, the Force, is freed himself of the pain of his suit (and its limitations), and is a better lightsaber duelist (see previous post for sources). Vader is already a better duelist than Starkiller in TFU2. The Prima Guide says Vader is an "unparalleled duelist"; this logically includes Starkiller. Considering the combatants are in the same ballpark in terms of augmentation, this confirms that Vader is the most skilled of the two. He further increases his power and mastery of the Force, along with his skill with the lightsaber, meaning Vader by ESB now has an augmentation and skill advantage against Starkiller. Coming back to ESB, Luke challenges this new and improved Vader to such an extent that the fight is "long and trying" for both men. Lucas, who per the rules of this debate is de-facto rule of law describes the fight as only "slightly one-sided", and Insider confirms "It is only Vader’s much greater experience that gives the Dark Lord the dominant edge in the battle." (Insider #62) This is saying that the only gap between Luke and Vader is Vader's experience, which indicates Luke's skill is already ~ Vader's, and thus >> Starkiller's. 

You're also missing the point that ESB Luke is only the stepping stone for ROTJ Luke, the Luke you conceded as being Vader's equal in the Force and as a duelist: 

I don’t disagree with anything here, it’s just pointless. There were circumstances to Starkiller’s fight with Vader - a lot of circumstances actually - and Starkiller still won. These comparisons to try to sh*t on Galen’s potential and disprove the clear narrative intent of the game developers don’t hold the slightest bit of water.

Since I've already debunked your claims RE: exhaustion scaling a ">>>>>>>>>>" gap in your words to ~ TFU2 Vader, we thus find that ROTJ Luke's parity with a far stronger Vader is of course entirely relevant. Note additionally that Vader has never felt as powerful as he did shortly before his confrontation with Luke on the Death Star, "His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor." (ROTJ Novelisation). So, we have:

ROTJ Luke = ROTJ Vader > ESB Vader ~/> ESB Luke > TFU2 Vader ~ Starkiller. 

And even ROTJ Luke was merely yet another stepping stone in my argument which led to DE Luke. Considering you had nothing to say regarding my actual argument for Luke's growth up to DE, I'm assuming you're conceding it. Luke has exponentially more growth than Galen, indicating a greater Force potential.

*CONCESSION COUNTER: 2

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Galen’s enlightenment - as you have so aptly called it - was realising that he shouldn’t kill Vader out of hate but rather out of pity. Now, what does Galen do in the Dark Side ending (you may find a clue in the name of the ending)? Yes, that’s right, funnily enough, he doesn’t make the good, upstanding choice, he chooses to get his revenge on Vader - killing him out of hate - as opposed to helping Kota and the rebels, ergo this isn’t Galen fighting Sidious while enlightened, as his enlightenment was realising that he shouldn’t give into anger to beat Vader, instead he should kill him out of pity. In fact, I’d say it’s incredibly likely Galen was weakened in the Dark Side ending of TFU, and far from at his strongest. To elaborate, HK-47 notes that Jedi can be weakened by negative emotions, like guilt and fear:

[...]

In this instance, I wouldn’t say it’s at all far-fetched to say Galen would feel guilty about taking his revenge on his Master (he’s felt guilty about sh*t he was far less responsible for) and leaving Kota and the rebels at Sidious’s mercy given that upon seeing Bail Organa’s body he screams “no” and is visibly horrified by the sight of it. Such emotions in combination with anger - which Galen was clearly feeling when he fought Sidious as he’s visibly angry when he lunges at him - generally lead to an absolute sh*t show (see Anakin vs Dooku on the Invisible Hand). In fact, Galen notes earlier when fighting Vader that anger “clouded his eyes when he most clearly needed to see” reinforcing my position that Galen’s bitter feelings towards Vader and Sidious do not at all benefit him. These feelings would only be intensified by Sidious’s mockery of his predictability, and betrayal of his friends. Overall, the most likely and consistent conclusion, which doesn’t involve throwing away statements and Galen’s performance in the Light Side Ending, is that he was operating well below his peak capabilities.

Yes, Galen gets his revenge on Vader, then instantly regrets it "Faced with a critical choice, the secret apprentice faltered. Rather than save his friend Rahm Kota, he gave in to his hatred and destroyed his old master, Darth Vader. When he realized what he’d done, he regretted his decision." (TFU1 Wii Prima Guide). Thus, his subsequent attempt to kill the Emperor isn't based on hatred (the Dark Side). On the contrary, he regrets killing Vader out of hate, then attempts to trick the Emperor. There's no evidence that Galen wasn't "enlightened", or rather convinced that he was wrong to think killing Vader out of hatred was the best way. The Galen who tried to backstab the Emperor by lulling him into a false sense of security isn't "DS Starkiller". The only reason it's called the "Dark Side Ending" is that Galen has a moment of weakness and kills Vader out of hate, then regrets it instantly (and of course becomes a Dark Sider after Sidious mutilates him).

But this is all meaningless anyway; I've already demonstrated that there's no proof Enlightened!Galen could ragdoll TFU1 Vader off the bat, yet we know that the Emperor can rapidly incapacitate a "far more formidable" Vader "at the height of his powers" with no trouble or sign he needed to go all-out to do so, as we see from his Force equal Luke Skywalker being utterly incapable of fending off Sidious' lightning. Thus, Sidious could ragdoll Enlightened!Galen anyway, and since Plagueis is on approximately the same power level, so could he.

ASAJJ VENTRESS SCALING

The quote doesn’t mention that they ever became a threat, and the only thing it indicates is that Sidious succeeded in his goal. Moreover, your rebuttal is essentially contingent on arguing Sidious sucks at keeping his adepts in check, and that Ventress became a threat to Vader despite not being trained to which isn’t really at all believable.

This is the bit I'm gonna focus on, because it's where your argument breaks down. Of course, the quote doesn't mention whether they ever became a threat because the whole point of it was to simply explain that they were not trained to become a threat. That's the entire point of the quote; it's not all-inclusive. My argument isn't contingent on Sidious sucking at all, he really couldn't have known about Dooku's extra training. And considering Ventress leaves the service of Dooku and therefore Sidious during the Clone Wars, then proceeds to become stronger, she doesn't really fall under the quote even if it said what you're wanting it to say, which is that "Vader > Ventress"; whereas the quote is simply saying "Vader > Ventress in Sith training". That's literally it. Sidious didn't intend for agents other than his Sith apprentices to be trained enough to challenge him or his apprentice, not mutually exclusive with them ever becoming a threat. Thus, you're scaling remains incorrect.

II. PLAGUEIS' POWER

A. FEAR

This does nothing to disprove the idea that the reason Sidious was afraid of Plagueis after his boost is that he feared Plagueis became immortal. The fact that Sidious viewed Plagueis as powerful prior to TPM isn’t in dispute, the question here is whether Sidious viewed Plagueis as comparably powerful to himself post-boost.

I'd rather clarify what is and isn't in dispute. Sidious' decision to kill Plagueis was on-the-spot, "Again, his eyes darted around the room, and the dark side whispered: Your election assured, the Sun Guards absent, Plagueis unsuspecting and asleep... And he moved in a blur." In fact, it's heavily insinuated that it wasn't even his decision, but the dark side whispering to him, since just beforehand he was considering killing Plagueis, but decided against it: "A few meters distant, Sidious came to a halt, gazing at Plagueis for a long moment, as though making up his mind about something. Then, blowing out his breath, he set his own glass down and reached for the cloak he had draped over a chair. Swirling it around himself, he started for the door, only to stop shortly before he reached it." The clear intent here is that Sidious doesn't believe he can defeat Plagueis, or considers it too much of a risk, even when Plagueis is highly intoxicated, sleeping for the first time in two decades with none of his guards around to protect him. This, combined with the quote in discussion - that two years before TPM Sidious describes Plagueis as omitting "terrifying energy" and could contain "the full power of the dark side" - implies that Sidious was never seriously considering challenging Plagueis; only a specific set of circumstances allowed for it to happen, and even then he dismissed it until the Dark Side whispered for him to do it.

Right, so the sole reason Sidious views Plagueis as seemingly almost omnipotent is that he escaped the devastation of Sojourn due to a tip-off from Jabba alerting him of the bombing before it happened (not a display of Force Power). You’re essentially arguing Sidious is like, “Wow, Plagueis flew away from a bombing in an invisible ship due to receiving a warning about it just prior, that makes him really strong in the Force.” which doesn’t make any sense in the slightest. The more logical take is to assume that this quote has nothing to do with Force Power and that Sidious stating Plagueis is omnipotent refers to him having almost unlimited allies and resources at his disposal.

This is a red herring. I was responding to your claim that "Sidious’s fear of Plagueis is largely based on the fact that Plagueis potentially could have become immortal." The purpose of the quote was to give an idea of how Sidious is feeling about Plagueis approaching TPM, and ties into my other points. This shouldn't be analysed in a vacuum (which you seem to be fond of).

Why wouldn’t it be indicative of his true feelings? The entire speech is essentially Sidious revealing how he really feels to Plagueis, and he even acknowledges Plagueis’s accomplishments in that very same monologue. Your arguments against it have been refuted above. So far you’ve yet to provide a valid contradiction.

Because Sidious (bar perhaps a few arguably similar) is pretty much the most egotistical and self-centered person in the SW universe. If you check out my last post, I linked a part from the ROTJ novel where he literally associates himself with the void of space. He goes from deciding against killing Plagueis, to doing it because the Dark Side whispered to him, to making a vain, egotistical speech, to being in abject fear for his own safety. I don't agree with using his speech as 100% accurate. Plus of course he claims to be more powerful than Plagueis yet also equally powerful to Plagueis in that same speech, so.

There’s a fundamental difference between officially published VA statements, and Luceno’s unofficial Facebook Q and A.

Perhaps, to an extent. But as I discussed above, just because Witwer had his opinions on Starkiller's potential published in Insider doesn't mean those comments are treated as factual, especially when G-canon and other sources contradict him.

This quote hinders your argument more than it helps it. Luceno using terminology such as “may have” and “undermine” clearly doesn’t illustrate he views Plagueis and pre-boost TPM Sidious as not close. The fact that he says Plagueis only “may have” beaten Sidious indicates uncertainty about the victor, and if Plagueis has to “undermine” (i.e. subtly and gradually weaken) Sidious there clearly isn’t a massive difference in Force Power. In total contrast, post-boost Sidious is much more powerful than pre-boost Sidious, so your argument that post-boost Sidious and Plagueis are comparable crumbles in on itself (if you accept Luceno’s statement as legit).

Plagueis and Sidious are quite comparable, so of course Plagueis doesn't have a definitive 10/10 win chance, I've already made this clear. I don't find his use of the term "undermining" as particularly hindering. Dooku may "undermine" Ventress because he taught her, just like any Sith master would take advantage of specific weaknesses they know of/have deliberately developed in their apprentices. The fact that Plagueis may be able to undermine Sidious in a duel means that his inside knowledge may give him the ability to work against Sidious' style.

Moreover, you've failed to substantiate this claim:

In total contrast, post-boost Sidious is much more powerful than pre-boost Sidious

Where's the evidence for this? This is a very big claim, "much more powerful". Since you fail to prove it, I'll consider it as a concession.

*CONCESSION COUNTER: 3

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Strawmann. I never claimed that Plagueis potentially being immortal was Sidious’s “only concern” just that it’s a relevant factor that should be acknowledged.

Fair enough, my bad.

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Relevance? Of course, Plagueis is obviously closer to post-boost Sidious than either Maul or Ventress are to TCW Sidious, but that doesn’t preclude Sidious from still being significantly stronger than Plagueis, especially since as I mentioned, there is context to Sidious’s fear.

Sure, but here you are again implying Sidious goes from being comparable to significantly more powerful after the boost without substantiating it. Furthermore, I've already discussed the context of Sidious' fear, and you failed to address that as well, instead rebutting with an unproven claim.

Sure, but if he had advanced MM to the point where he became immortal he’d be virtually impossible to incapacitate. Add on the fact that Plagueis potentially hadn’t taught Sidious everything and had some tricks up his sleeve, plus his own incredible power, and you definitely have reasonable cause for Sidious to be scared. Also, if Plagueis had become immortal that also proposes the question to Sidious: What else can he do with MM?

Again, you're the one arguing post-boost Sidious is significantly more powerful than Plagueis, so why should Plagueis being able to live on through death be a threat to him if Sidious is far more powerful? You've backed yourself into a corner here.

I don’t see why not given that Sidious doesn’t know whether Plagueis has ways to overcome his power advantage, and is considering in this context that Plagueis may have become immortal.

Pretty much the same as what I said above. Why should Sidious, who according to you is "much more powerful than pre-boost Sidious" - and you said that pre-boost Sidious and Plagueis are comparably powerful - be concerned about a significantly weaker Force entity without a corporeal form? He didn't seem worried about "a power greater than himself" after he'd confirmed that Plagueis couldn't threaten him from beyond the grave in a combative sense.

B. POTENTIAL

The quote notes just prior that Sidious is “the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power” which is completely irrelevant information if the quote is talking about political power, the phrase being included in the quote is much more plausible if it’s referring to Force Power. You’re going to need to go into detail on why it’s “likely” that it’s talking about political power.

Okay, let's post the quote again:

Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.

And let's remember your original point: 

Quote 1: Self-explanatory. It notes Sidious “bides his time” and only “as his strength grows” do “his planes begin to shape the course of the galaxy” i.e. Sidious is biding his time and gathering strength before he initiates his plans. Why would Sidious bide his time in order to gather strength if he’s only going to use that power in extreme moments given that it will severely damage his body, and it isn’t even necessary for said plans?


He's simply biding his time, his strength (force power, political dominance) and his plans are beginning to the shape the galaxy. It's simple, and like the Vader/Ventress quote, you're invoking stuff desperately when they don't actually say what you want it to say. You have no evidence that the quote is saying "Sidious was biding his time until his Force power was enough to enact/finish his plans", or whatever weird argument you're implying.

So you’re arguing that him initiating his plans as his strength grows is wholly coincidental? Your interpretation doesn’t really fit with the reading of the quote, you're arguing that it randomly denoted his strength grew alongside his plans despite that being completely irrelevant to the subject matter (if we accept your take). The quote makes so much more sense if we interpret it as Sidious only finally unleashing his plans when he’s strong enough, and it fits with the text noting just prior Sidious is waiting for the opportune moment to initiate his plans.

If he's waiting for the opportune moment to initiate his plans, then how can he also be waiting until he's strong enough? How will he be sure his plans will line up with reaching his desired power level? You're just overcomplicating this. 

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Bullsh*t. As already noted in my opener: “Given that it’s actively affecting the Jedi’s ability to see the future it’s clearly combat applicable and not just power locked inside Sidious.” How on earth is power that’s directly affecting people around Sidious not combat applicable? It can’t exactly be power Sidious cannot use without damaging his body if he is using it consistently for over a decade with no serious effects.

It's not an active power. Nowhere have you substantiated that.

The quote you cited doesn’t prove anything, Sidious suffering from Dark Side degradation is not indicative of him supposedly having power inside of him that’s too much for his body to handle like you’re concluding.

Okay, because why? Saying "it doesn't prove anything" after I link various sources and exposition throughout my posts isn't an answer. That's another concession.

*CONCESSION COUNTER: 4

And again, you’re ignoring the obvious intent of the quote in question. Yoda concludes Sidious must have grown in power based on his fight with him indicating it’s clearly combat applicable power and not just power that’s locked away which Sidious can’t use apart from in extreme situations.

Yoda is merely saying that since the dark side cloud is unprecedented in terms of how it's limiting the Jedi, it must stand to reason that the Sith were also stronger since that has never happened at that level before.

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Right… Sidious’s body becoming deformed from his fight with Yoda doesn’t mean he drew beyond his body’s potential, there are other explanations for that. Besides, even if he did, there’s no evidence he was doing it for the full fight (I’m pretty sure we’d see him be heavily damaged if he did), especially not right at the start of the fight when he’s not in any significant danger. Then there’s also the fact that the two were fighting equally in that part of the fight - which given the two are equals when Sidious is at base - you’d expect Sidious to be winning if he was drawing beyond his biological Force potential.

Yes, other explanations that you've failed to substantiate.


When did I claim he was doing it for the full fight? Why do I need to provide evidence for that? 



Sidious did end up winning though, "The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat." (Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia); "The Jedi Master and the Sith Lord dueled in the Senate chamber, but Sidious was too strong for Yoda to defeat." (Source: Databank: Coruscant History Gallery); and "A fierce duel commenced. Yoda and Darth Sidious each used his side of the Force to try to defeat the other. But the Sith Lord's powers were too strong." (Source: Revenge of the Sith Junior Novelization). I see no reason why Sidious couldn't have drawn beyond his body to get an edge on Yoda.

Anyway, do you seriously think the author wrote this quote with the intention: “Oh Sidious has grown more powerful but his body limits him, yet he’s drawing beyond his body’s potential.” I certainly don’t think so, the author notes a general power increase for him without even remotely touching upon the fact that this is power that he can’t use without damaging himself.

Not relevant. I'm looking at the Legends continuity regarding this topic on the whole, and this quote happens to conform with the position. 

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The sensation matching other descriptions doesn’t mean the quote isn’t hyperbole. In the example(s) provided extensive descriptions are given, whereas in Sidious’s case we’re given a single phrase, yet you’re nonsensically concluding Sidious hit his biological Force Potential, despite the fact that if he had the author probably would have gone into greater detail given that it has significance to the rest of the lore.

And I've already explained that there's no reason to take this as hyperbole when other material supports the idea that he hit his potential. Considering you've failed to actually deconstruct one of my core arguments supported from various materials and eras on reaching/abusing the body's Force potential, I see no obligation on my part to repeat myself. 

“Filled to bursting” and “full to bursting” are, of course, obviously not the same thing - the latter necessitates that something is full (given that the word full is used in the phrase), whereas the former doesn’t. I think it’s pertinent to note that the phrase is exaggeration and commonly used to convey there is an abundance of something rather than something literally hitting its maximum capacity. For example, to look back at my previous citations in post 1, in absolutely none of these cases has the thing in question hit its maximum capacity. Likewise, if I claim I am “filled to bursting” with food after having a filling turkey on Christmas Day, that does not mean I can literally not consume any more food. This aligns with the reading of the quote, it’s trying to convey Sidious is juiced up with power, not that he hit his full potential (that’s indicated absolutely nowhere). Again, the phrase is an obvious overstatement, and is clearly non-literal - I’ve seen it used dozens of times before. Why you chose to make this your main argument is quite frankly beyond me.

Don't know about you, but if a container is filled to bursting, it means it has been filled until the container is gonna burst from the pressure. You're just playing a semantics word game here.

It's not my main argument, you're taking that phrase in a vacuum and ignoring all the other materials and quotes I've provided to substantiate the point - which you've failed to address at all in this SS.

III. Cherry-picking

A. HP IS LEELAND CHEE?

I say we agree to a singular source for SK’s fights, in order to keep consistent and avoid cherry-picking, as they all portray the fights differently. I’d suggest the novelization as it's by far the most detailed, plus it has been labelled as “the one true canon path” for TFU material meaning it’s what actually took place in continuity.

I'm sorry, what? Are you saying I'm not allowed to use Legends continuity materials? We take all the sources and reconcile them, not throw-out sources that don't conform with the game novelisation. As per the rules of the debate, I'm perfectly within my right to invoke a comic scan, which falls under C-canon and is perfectly legitimate.

See what I mean? You’re cherry-picking from sources that portray different fights and stitching together the scans most favourable to your argument. It’s dishonest and a pain in the ass to respond to, so please next time, at least try to stick to a single version of the fights.

I wasn't aware that per the rules, we can only stick to one version of the fight. You're missing the point of these gifs anyway, but we'll get to that now.

B. STARKILLER'S INCONSISTENCIES PT. 2

You seem to be ignoring the rather obvious fact that SK had never fought a real Jedi before, so it makes sense that he’d be tagged by a Force attack, he hasn’t had any real experience fighting yet.

You mean the Starkiller you hyped up in your first post? Let me post some quotes you cited in that opening post regarding specifically to the Starkiller that fought Kota:

more powerful than many Jedi Knights had been during the Clone Wars



among the most powerful Force-users in the galaxy.



learned to wield many fearsome dark side powers



all but perfected the fine art of lightsaber combat.

But this guy gets the "he never fought a real Jedi before"? What about Maul? He never experienced this problem.

I also like you're enforcing a "novel only" stance whilst also having used the comic various times in your opening post. Case and point: him killing Shaak Ti with a Force repulse. So, you're allowed to give comic scans of Galen using the Force against Shaak Ti or Kota as examples, but I'm not allowed to because the scans I post aren't convenient to you? At this point, I'm not going to indulge every single rebuttal, considering most of it is "meh, I'm only interested in novel only." You've just blatantly contradicted your own standards.

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I'll rebut a few more particular points of note.

for example, of Kenobi getting tagged by Force attacks in combat by equal/superior/slightly inferior opponents, and the conclusion isn’t that he lacks mastery.

Sure, he lacks mastery relative to his opponents.

How on earth you reached this conclusion from SK getting hit like every normal fighter is quite frankly beyond me.

And here we reach my main point: that SK is getting thrown around consistently across various sources in a very short period of time. The point of my gifs was to illustrate that this guy gets knocked around by people he's superior/equal to quite frequently. It's not the best track record for Force mastery.

IV. More TFU2 Stuff

In the final stages of TFU 2, Galen performs all of his best feats back to back. He starts by defending against heat comparable to “the outer layers of a star” while guiding a 300m frigate, before atomising the fore section of the frigate (13) - blowing it “into a billion pieces.” Starkiller then falls unconscious for a duration of time, and when he wakes up he can barely stand (14) and struggles to lift a relatively small ship (15), yet later when he “sought strength from within himself and pushed outward with all his might” he had enough strength left to blast away an army of Starkiller clones (16) that could have “easily turned upon their creator (Vader) and overpowered him.” After this Starkiller states, he’d “never felt so exhausted at every level of his being” (17) which would include a time when he spent thirteen days wasting away Force energy to the point where he didn’t even want to spend energy on thinking or remember (18), yet despite being in such poor condition he defeats Vader once (19) and then stalemates him the second time (20). Overall, Galen performs one of the best TK feats in the mythos, and despite being incredibly weakened afterward still had enough power left to beat a fighting force vastly superior to Vader, and then defeat Vader himself. This feat is immense, and you have you ask yourself, can you really see Plagueis doing something like this? My answer to that is no, Plagueis isn’t on Galen’s level in raw power, he’s capped firmly below post-boost TPM Sidious, meanwhile, SK is running gauntlets I can see ROTS Sidious having a hard time against.

Yeah, this is impressive and all, but what relevance does this have when considering his power next to a Sidious level being? You've failed to prove why Starkiller's exhaustion (that he gets rid of immediately just before fighting Vader) is relevant to the fight or why it makes him ">>>>>>" Vader.

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Touching briefly on lightsaber dueling, I see no reason why Plagueis wouldn't be able to utterly dominate Starkiller in a duel. His augmentation is on par with post-boost Sidious, he's comparably skilled to Sidious as well given he taught Sidious lightsaber combat, and there's no evidence that his skills would have atrophied greatly enough to significantly affect his performance (Sidious is a perfect example). Starkiller mastering lightsaber combat doesn't mean anything when pre-prime Vader was his superior as a duelist. 

V. Conclusion

You've ignored various rebuttals of mine (including not addressing some of my core arguments), showed yourself to be a hypocrite by using comic scans of fights as evidence and then saying I can't because we can only use the novelisation (double standards), strawmanned me at least four times, tried to scale Vader over Ventress because a quote says Sidious didn't want her trained as a Sith, argued that Sam Witwer's opinions on Galen's potential should be treated as fact simply because they were published in Insider - and much more. 

You have no substantiated why Starkiller can contend with a Sidious tier being.