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lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on August 21st 2020, 11:48 am
@Master Azronger wrote:Krayt is in another league to everyone here.
can u make a quick case as to why?
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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on August 21st 2020, 12:30 pm

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lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on August 21st 2020, 12:37 pm
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
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on August 21st 2020, 12:40 pm
krayt>caedus>dooku>kun
HellfireUnit
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on August 21st 2020, 1:37 pm
@The lord of hunger wrote:krayt>caedus>dooku>kun

based on what?
Lord Eon
Lord Eon

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on August 21st 2020, 1:43 pm
Sith Archivist wrote:
The Rich Man wrote:If we buy Malak quote

SoR Revan >/~ Reborn Krayt >/~ Caedus >/~ Dooku <(<) Yoda >>> Hero of Tython > Vitiate > Revan Reborn > Malak >> Kun

If we don't buy Malak quote, I'm not sure.
SoR Revan is pretty much confirmed to be weaker than Vitiate
I was referring to ACT III Vitiate
Lord Eon
Lord Eon

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on August 21st 2020, 1:54 pm
@HellfireUnit wrote:
The Rich Man wrote:If we buy Malak quote

SoR Revan >/~ Reborn Krayt >/~ Caedus >/~ Dooku <(<) Yoda >>> Hero of Tython > Vitiate > Revan Reborn > Malak >> Kun

If we don't buy Malak quote, I'm not sure.

What makes you think that SOR Revan is above anyone else in the list bar Kun and Malak
His performance against the strike team. If we think the strike team had some advantages, it's a good thing for Revan.

- The strike team was massively amped by Satele's battle meditation. If we think Revan was amped by Yavin IV nexus, it was balanced.

- Light Spirit of Revan helped the strike team. If Light Spirit of Revan didn't save them, Revan would defeat them.
Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

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on August 21st 2020, 2:25 pm
The Rich Man:

His performance against the strike team. If we think the strike team had some advantages, it's a good thing for Revan.

- The strike team was massively amped by Satele's battle meditation. If we think Revan was amped by Yavin IV nexus, it was balanced.

- Light Spirit of Revan helped the strike team. If Light Spirit of Revan didn't save them, Revan would defeat them.

Revan was definitely amped by Yavin IV while Satele and HoT were hindered by it. Only 2 from the strike team would have been amped while the rest were non Force users. Satele wasn't even fighting Revan for most of it as she was using her battle meditation instead. There isn't evidence that the team was "massively amped" by Sateles BM or at least to the same extent as the Yavin IV hinder-ness level. The "doubling stats" is simply game mechanics and not a realistic take of the actual impact of the Battle meditation relative to the Yavin IV impact. This comes from the fact that the user/character stats are never reduced when on Yavin IV meaning that the Yavin IV impact is not taken into account within these stats. Therefore, these stats are not a realistic take of the lore itself and for all we know Sateles BM simply reduced the hinder-ness HoT and Satele had from Yavin IV meaning they were actually weaker than under normal conditions overall and therefore not amped but actually hindered, which seems more logical considering Yavin IV was a very powerful Nexus. So really an amped Revan was fighting 2 amped users, 2 hindered users ( one of which wasn't even fighting most of the time) and some non Force users. It is still impressive but not as much as some people make it seem. And this is assuming that Amps/hinders from nexuses are linear and don't grow stronger the more powerful a user initially is.
KingKopecz
KingKopecz

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on August 21st 2020, 4:29 pm
@Seturna wrote:Why is Krayt above RoTS Sidious?
Pre-reborn Krayt has strong feats against GM Luke and Abeloth.
 
Krayt was the dark counterpart to GM Luke on the throne of balance:
 
"No one whose help you want," Jacen said. "That's the dark man I saw on the Throne of Balance.”
-Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse 
Krayt was strong enough to hurt Abeloth with a punch:
''The tattooed stranger stepped in from the left, then slid to the front and drove his stiffened fingers deep into the pit of Abeloth's stomach. A black spray erupted from the wound, and she writhed in pain as the stranger probed for something to grab.''
-Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse
Krayt was capable of draining Abeloth and GM Luke:
"Luke did not understand until an eternity later, when the stranger rolled up on his feet and jerked them all to a halt. The Sith seemed to be growing stronger as Abeloth grew weaker, and there were wisps of dark fume swirling off his shoulders and head. It did not take a Jedi Grand Master to understand that Luke was being betrayed by a force draining technique."
-Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse
Given that reborn Krayt becomes even more powerful than this, he should be on par or slightly above RotS Sidious who Dooku can't even hold a candle to. 
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
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on August 21st 2020, 8:29 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
I guess a lot of the relevance here comes via the scale of feats and the implications of Kun's spirit in comparison to everyone else:

1.Exar Kun in his prime had drained thousands of Massassi to grow powerful enough to fuel his ritual and become a spirit. Prior to this he faced down an Ood Bnar who had channelled the living Force to attempt to stop him. Kun walked off the attack but was in turn incapable of crossing Bnar's Force shield. This shield was also channelled via the planet and such energy was strong enough to mitigate the damage from ten supernova waves that would've otherwise completely destroyed the planet.

Bnar in turn, in this state, is demonstratably far beyond the power of the likes of Odan-Urr and Vodo-Siosk Baas, both more powerful than Thon.

Thon quite famously was capable of overpowering the combined spirits and dark side energy of Ambria. Thus cleansing the entire surface of the planet. Containing it all within a single locale. It's also stated to be a greater accumulation of dark side energy than anything on Jedi record prior to it. This puts that energy far, far above a mega-amped Naga Sadow manipulating star fire. Regular Naga Sadow is at least more powerful than Darth Tenebrous. Insanely impressive power feat scaling.

2.Exar Kun's spirit is outright stated to be more powerful than Vision of the Future Master Luke Skywalker. Which is 19ABY Luke. Figuring in that Exar Kun's spirit is canonically magnitudes beneath his living prime then the scaling in and of itself puts Kun well within the ballpark of one of the NJO iterations of Luke Skywalker.

That's a hell of a lot for the others here to match up to.


Last edited by LadyKulvax on August 22nd 2020, 5:40 am; edited 1 time in total
BigMouthPrick
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on August 21st 2020, 9:08 pm
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^ Good post. The lowballing of Exar Kun needs to stop.
Lord Eon
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on August 22nd 2020, 5:35 am
@Darth Nihilus wrote:
The Rich Man:

His performance against the strike team. If we think the strike team had some advantages, it's a good thing for Revan.

- The strike team was massively amped by Satele's battle meditation. If we think Revan was amped by Yavin IV nexus, it was balanced.

- Light Spirit of Revan helped the strike team. If Light Spirit of Revan didn't save them, Revan would defeat them.

Revan was definitely amped by Yavin IV while Satele and HoT were hindered by it. Only 2 from the strike team would have been amped while the rest were non Force users. Satele wasn't even fighting Revan for most of it as she was using her battle meditation instead. There isn't evidence that the team was "massively amped" by Sateles BM or at least to the same extent as the Yavin IV hinder-ness level. The "doubling stats" is simply game mechanics and not a realistic take of the actual impact of the Battle meditation relative to the Yavin IV impact. This comes from the fact that the user/character stats are never reduced when on Yavin IV meaning that the Yavin IV impact is not taken into account within these stats. Therefore, these stats are not a realistic take of the lore itself and for all we know Sateles BM simply reduced the hinder-ness HoT and Satele had from Yavin IV meaning they were actually weaker than under normal conditions overall and therefore not amped but actually hindered, which seems more logical considering Yavin IV was a very powerful Nexus. So really an amped Revan was fighting 2 amped users, 2 hindered users ( one of which wasn't even fighting most of the time) and some non Force users. It is still impressive but not as much as some people make it seem. And this is assuming that Amps/hinders from nexuses are linear and don't grow stronger the more powerful a user initially is.
There is, lol.

[The Coalition Strike Team's] combat effectiveness is greatly increased.

It proves the strike team's combat effective is greatly increased by Satele's battle meditation.

Yeah, Revan was amped by Yavin IV nexus. I don't deny it. But the strike team was also massively amped by Satele's battle meditation. It was balanced.
Master Azronger
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on August 22nd 2020, 8:02 am
@The Rich Man It could simply mean the strike team's effectiveness was increased in the context of the Yavin debuff, but not necessarily above their base power levels (aside for the dark siders like Marr and Beniko, of course)

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Lord Eon
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on August 22nd 2020, 9:52 am
@Master Azronger wrote:@The Rich Man It could simply mean the strike team's effectiveness was increased in the context of the Yavin debuff, but not necessarily above their base power levels (aside for the dark siders like Marr and Beniko, of course)
If the strike team's power level wasn't increased, how was the strike team's combat effectiveness increased?
Master Azronger
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on August 22nd 2020, 10:51 am
I literally explained it in the sentence you're quoting

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Darth Nihilus
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on August 22nd 2020, 11:18 am
The Rich Man wrote:
@Master Azronger wrote:@The Rich Man It could simply mean the strike team's effectiveness was increased in the context of the Yavin debuff, but not necessarily above their base power levels (aside for the dark siders like Marr and Beniko, of course)
If the strike team's power level wasn't increased, how was the strike team's combat effectiveness increased?

Basically the combat effectiveness was greatly increased but not to the point that Satele and the HoT were above their base levels despite this increase. Basically, the Nexus hinder-ness is greater than this increase from Satele's BM and so Satele and HoT were still below their base power levels despite this increase meaning they were still hindered overall. You can think of it as Satele and HoT being 'less' hindered due to this increase but still hindered overall.
xolthol
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on August 23rd 2020, 8:08 am
Siding with Reborn Krayt. For those who are looking for some argument you can also go HERE where @Master Azronger and @The Lostmade an insanely great work defending Reborn Krayt.
LadyKulvax
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on August 23rd 2020, 9:36 am
Yeah, that's already been linked. Unfortunately it's not really going to do a lot compared to what we know as absolute fact. Simply put, even if Vong Krayt is literally multiple times less powerful than his reborn incarnation. Which for the record just isn't the case given he's not capable of stomping Wyyrlok III in the way he should be if that were true.

The Ostrander statement is still binding, Muur's spirit is by itself more powerful than vong Krayt is. Muur's spirit can't compare to his living incarnation whose source of power was present where it isn't for him as a spirit. That source being the Star Map on Korriban for the record.

When it comes down to it, Karness Muur is on the wrong end of 2,000 years of raw power growth through each generation, that he and his fellow Exiles are bound by and buried under. It essentially shows that next to Ludo Kressh or Naga Sadow, Muur's not a competitor in the slightest. In other words, Naga Sadow is Darth Plagueis(in more ways than one) and Karness Muur is Darth Bane.

That's not factoring in Marka Ragnos, whose spirit Sadow and Kressh believe could 'crush' either of them. Certainly not Exar Kun, who as of his duel with Ulic Qel-Droma is the first person 'worthy' of the power and legacy of the former ancients.
Seturna
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on August 23rd 2020, 11:46 am
Hasn’t the Muur scaling been debunked?
LadyKulvax
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on August 23rd 2020, 11:49 am
No, there's a quote that's been misinterpreted really badly that was itself debunked months ago.
Seturna
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on August 23rd 2020, 11:57 am
I assume you’re referring to the Muur growing quote?
Caelus Pall
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on August 23rd 2020, 11:58 am
Krayt > Kun > Tyranus > Caedus > Revan.
LadyKulvax
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on August 23rd 2020, 12:05 pm
@Seturna wrote:I assume you’re referring to the Muur growing quote?

It never says he grows more powerful, just more dangerous. Which is obvious given that the Rakghoul plague and the talisman itself was more active than it used to be. The entire point of the talisman was to trap Muur and contain him, as stated by Sorzus Syn.
Seturna
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on August 23rd 2020, 12:22 pm
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Lord Eon
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on August 24th 2020, 5:42 am
My mind has changed.

If we buy Malak quote

Krayt > Revan > Dooku > Caedus > Kun

If we don't buy Malak quote

I'm not sure.
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