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Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator | Champion of the Light
Moderator | Champion of the Light

The Ones of Mortis - not as powerful as you believed Empty The Ones of Mortis - not as powerful as you believed

on June 29th 2020, 4:08 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
The Ones of Mortis - not as powerful as you believed Image0

https://www.starwars.com/news/the-world-puller-the-history-of-centerpoint-station-needs-author-entry/

The above quote has really only been cited as evidence of Abeloth's inferiority to the Ones, and I myself only took a careful look at the quote moments prior to making this thread. While the first sentence states Abeloth isn't as powerful as the Ones, the adverb "quite" denotes that the gap is not all that significant. In support of this interpretation, the third sentence outright states that the very reason the Ones created the Maw was because no existing prison could contain "beings of the architects' power," outright identifying Abeloth as an entity in the same power class as the Ones themselves. And if the Maw is powerful enough to contain "beings of the architects' power," then it logically is capable of containing the Ones themselves. For those unaware, the Maw is a cluster of a few dozen black holes around Abeloth's planet that prevented her escape because of their gravitational pull.

This is not to say that the Ones are weak, but their hype as universal forces of destruction is completely unfounded if regular black holes are enough to neutralize the threat they seemingly posed.

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Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

The Ones of Mortis - not as powerful as you believed Empty Re: The Ones of Mortis - not as powerful as you believed

on June 29th 2020, 4:40 am
Interesting read  The Ones of Mortis - not as powerful as you believed 1289255181.
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
Level Three
Level Three

The Ones of Mortis - not as powerful as you believed Empty Re: The Ones of Mortis - not as powerful as you believed

on June 29th 2020, 8:08 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
This is a very interesting argument, and one that I will definitely consider. However, there’s 2 factors I think need to be taken into account (Note that this is not a debunk, just some food for thought): 
1)Centerpoint station 
2) The effects of black holes on force users. 

Now for the former, let’s start with a few statements on Centerpoint’s power:

Abyss wrote:Centerpoint had been an ancient space station located in the stable zone between the Corellian worlds of Talus and Tralus. Its origins remained cloaked in mystery, but the station had once been the most powerful weapon in the galaxy, capable of destroying entire star systems from hundreds of light-years away. One of the few positive things to come of the recent civil war, in Ben’s opinion, had been the facility’s destruction. He was far from happy to discover another version hidden here, deep inside the Maw.

Outcast wrote:Han, the makers of this place might also have built Centerpoint Station. Remember how powerful it was?” Centerpoint’s gravitic tractor could, in theory, move planets and suns; could collapse and destroy whole solar systems. Han didn’t miss its presence in the universe.

GALACTIC ARCHITECTURE 101 AND THE HISTORY OF CENTERPOINT STATION wrote:Centerpoint Station, the most powerful force in the galaxy, second only to the power of the Force itself, was created in February 1995 by legendary science fiction author Roger Macbride Allen for his Corellian trilogy series of novels for Bantam Spectra. The station’s power dwarfed that of previous superweapons and left an impression on fans, paving the way for the station’s return as both a setting and superweapon in future novels and role-playing games. This is its story.
[…]
The Killik hives that constructed Centerpoint Station called it Qolaraloq, or The World Puller. However, the Killiks did not design the station, they were working on behalf of two Celestial architects known as the Son and Daughter of Mortis. The purpose of the station was to create a tractor beam analogue powerful enough to move planets, stars, and even black holes from across the galaxy. To accomplish this feat, the Killiks first constructed Centerpoint Station in orbit around Corel, a star with only two outlier planets.

So first of all, Abeloth has no way to actually move the black holes themselves, since they’re being held there by an immensely powerful force artifact, one which exceeds even her strength. And this makes perfect sense: it’s established in FOTJ and in the article you liked that it was Centerpoint’s destruction the direct cause of Abeloth’s freedom (indirectly by Jacen changing the Current). The same obviously applies to Sinkhole station, a miniature version of centerpoint. 

Allies wrote:“I’ll have a better idea when we’re there,” Luke said, deflecting the question. In truth, Ben knew, Luke didn’t think they’d find information. He wanted to see if there was any way he could effect repairs to the station, bring it back to its proper position. Because the more time passed, the more both Luke and Ben felt certain that Sinkhole Station played a vital role in keeping Abeloth where she currently was.”

Apocalypse wrote:He did not want to believe the Killik’s version of history, but the truth was clear. Centerpoint Station had been destroyed during the war against the Sith Lord Caedus, and its loss had launched a catastrophic chain of events. Sinkhole Station had been crippled, allowing the Lost Tribe to discover Abeloth and her planet. There could be no denying Thuruht’s claim. The war between the Jedi and the Sith had led directly to the freeing of Abeloth.
No, Thuruht said, speaking inside Raynar’s head. Qolaraloq’s destruction followed, but it did not cause. It was just one link snapping, in a chain full of snapping links.

That said, what did Centerpoint’s destruction actually cause? According to your article: 

When Centerpoint Station was destroyed in 40 ABY, it created a fissure in the Maw that allowed Abeloth to reach out into the galaxy through the Force.

The black holes are obviously still there, and their gravitational pull hasn’t changed, but since their positioning has changed, Abeloth is now capable of reaching out through the force, implying she previously wasn’t. This leads me into the next point, that being the black hole’s nature. According to Luke earlier in the series, the black holes have a sickening effect on force users (Abeloth should be no exception to this), as they are, in a way, disconnected from it. 

Outcast wrote:Luke nodded. “Black holes are an interesting astronomical phenomenon to scientists, and a vaguely unsettling image for most other people … but Force-users and Force-sensitives have a real dislike or dread of them.”
“Why?”
His father shrugged. “The Force derives from life. Even death is not all that disturbing to a Force-user, since it is a part, a necessary consequence, of life. Black holes are something else. A cessation outside of life. Maybe the way they draw in all energy and trap it forever runs against our instincts. I’m not sure. I do know that the Force-sensitive children we hid at Shelter during the Yuuzhan Vong War did not like being in the Maw, surrounded on all sides by black holes. You’re too young to remember, but the Jedi caretakers at Shelter said there was a lot of crying.

With this in mind, my understanding is that they work in a similar way to the ysalamiri, in that they prevent a force user from using the force at any level in a specific area. To my knowledge, no source downright confirms it was just the gravitational pull that prevented her from leaving. Otherwise Lando’s Rockhound or any other ship who’s navigated the Maw should be capable of generating more power than Abeloth, which in all honesty wouldn’t make much sense. Abeloth at the end of FOTJ is stated to be at least capable of reshaping entire the galaxy, though since it’s from Ben’s point of view it’s up to you to decide whether to buy it or not. 
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator | Champion of the Light
Moderator | Champion of the Light

The Ones of Mortis - not as powerful as you believed Empty Re: The Ones of Mortis - not as powerful as you believed

on June 29th 2020, 9:23 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
@MasterCilghal

So first of all, Abeloth has no way to actually move the black holes themselves, since they’re being held there by an immensely powerful force artifact, one which exceeds even her strength. And this makes perfect sense: it’s established in FOTJ and in the article you liked that it was Centerpoint’s destruction the direct cause of Abeloth’s freedom (indirectly by Jacen changing the Current). The same obviously applies to Sinkhole station, a miniature version of centerpoint.

My argument was that the black holes' gravitation pull was preventing Abeloth from leaving i.e. that she's not strong enough to overcome that pull, and neither are the Ones. Obviously by extension they're not strong enough to telekinetically move those black holes, Centerpoint or no Centerpoint. I don't see the point in mentioning this.

The black holes are obviously still there, and their gravitational pull hasn’t changed, but since their positioning has changed, Abeloth is now capable of reaching out through the force, implying she previously wasn’t. This leads me into the next point, that being the black hole’s nature. According to Luke earlier in the series, the black holes have a sickening effect on force users (Abeloth should be no exception to this), as they are, in a way, disconnected from it.

Yes, the destruction of Centerpoint Station widened the gap between select black holes and created a passageway where their pull wasn't as intense, allowing Abeloth to escape. This strengthens my argument.

With this in mind, my understanding is that they work in a similar way to the ysalamiri, in that they prevent a force user from using the force at any level in a specific area. To my knowledge, no source downright confirms it was just the gravitational pull that prevented her from leaving.

Nothing in your citation even remotely hints at black holes inherently depriving Force-users of their powers. It wouldn't even make sense as Luke and Kyp Durron have telekinetically manipulated micro-black holes. Luke at best is describing some sort of discomfort aroused by the implications of black holes's nature, which could be entirely psychological, and he even says "I'm not sure" in your very own quote.

Otherwise Lando’s Rockhound or any other ship who’s navigated the Maw should be capable of generating more power than Abeloth, which in all honesty wouldn’t make much sense.

I have no context or knowledge or any of this, so citation needed. Regardless, it's possible that the black holes were more tightly-knit near Abeloth's planet than in other parts of the Maw.

Abeloth at the end of FOTJ is stated to be at least capable of reshaping entire the galaxy, though since it’s from Ben’s point of view it’s up to you to decide whether to buy it or not.

One of your own quotes that you cited describes Centerpoint Station as "the most powerful force in the galaxy, second only to the power of the Force itself," and you yourself admitted that it exceed's Abeloth's power, so that should put the nail in the coffin: The Ones are beneath Centerpoint Station, and therefore far from universal threats. That was my main point with this thread; I don't much care for the minutiae.

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The Ones of Mortis - not as powerful as you believed Empty Re: The Ones of Mortis - not as powerful as you believed

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