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Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Knightfall Vader Questions Empty Knightfall Vader Questions

on June 22nd 2020, 12:01 am
So I am sort of new to this Era and don't have much knowledge on this but I have been interested in KF Vader recently and have some questions. Also any other information (even if irrelevant) would be nice.

1- Why would is Mustafar Vader considered weaker than KF Vader? Isn't Mustafar Vader after KF Vader and so he would be more immersed in the dark side? Was it his mental condition that rendered his power?

2- If KF Vader was able to decimate Dooku in seconds, wouldn't that put him above Yoda who was not able to do the same and matched evenly with Dooku in that time frame? I think it's also stated that Yoda and Dooku are equals in Force power.

3- Would KF Vader be able to defeat ROTS Sidious?

4- Who is considered a tier 9 and how would the list go? (from lowest to highest)

5- Is KF Vader more skilled as a duelist (combined with his rage hits) than Yoda?

6- How mentally stable was KF Vader relatively speaking and why did his condition worsen later on?
Azronger
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on June 22nd 2020, 2:03 am
1. Mustafar Vader is just as, if not more powerful than Knightfall Vader per Lucas and other sources. Some members believe he was unable to properly focus his power because of mental hindrances, but I don't personally buy into this hypothesis as Lucas has indicated he's still on the same tier as Sidious and Yoda combatively.

2. That was AOTC Yoda. ROTS Yoda is matching Sidious, who is more powerful than KF Vader per a majority of sources. Lucas, who said that Yoda and Dooku are equals in AOTC, also decreed that Sidious and Mustafar Vader are equally powerful, and that Sidious, Yoda and Vader are all on level 9, whereas Anakin at the start of the movie - while still superior to Dooku - is only on level 8.

3. No. Even if he's conventionally on the same level, he'll fall to the lightning, and will possibly break down from Palpatine's dun möch if we are going in-character.

4. Sidious, Yoda, and Vader are the only officially confirmed nines. In swordsmanship, they are all relatively equal and victories will come down to stylistic and environmental factors. However, when all aspects of the Force are factored in, I believe Palpatine to be the greatest of the three.

5. His fighting style is said to have the least flaws, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's uniquely suited to combating someone like Yoda. Mastery of the Force is also a factor e.g. Yoda was able to disarm Palpatine with a calculated burst of speed.

6. He's as stable as someone who's truly gorging himself on the dark side for the first time can be. There are conflicting sources on his condition following Operation Knightfall.

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on June 22nd 2020, 5:29 am
1- Why would is Mustafar Vader considered weaker than KF Vader? Isn't Mustafar Vader after KF Vader and so he would be more immersed in the dark side? Was it his mental condition that rendered his power?

It was his mental condition, yes. Granted, there is a debate on the subject, but the arguments for Mustafar Vader being weaker is that essentially he was overwhelmed by his fear, rage, etc, and unable to focus his power properly as a result.

2- If KF Vader was able to decimate Dooku in seconds, wouldn't that put him above Yoda who was not able to do the same and matched evenly with Dooku in that time frame? I think it's also stated that Yoda and Dooku are equals in Force power.

You can make the case that this puts KF Vader above Yoda, yes. Of course, there are rebuttals, and people have different ideas on the source material, though.

3- Would KF Vader be able to defeat ROTS Sidious?

Probably not. Sidious knows Anakin extensively, and given that single taunts from Dooku were able to throw Anakin off-balance on the IH, Palpatine would have a field day with him.

4- Who is considered a tier 9 and how would the list go? (from lowest to highest)

Palpatine, Yoda, and KF Vader are all tier 9s, and I'd rank them in that order. Mace has also been stated to be a 9 (though, there's some debate on that), so I'll answer the question that if I were to include him, he'd probably be at the very bottom.

5- Is KF Vader more skilled as a duelist (combined with his rage hits) than Yoda?

I'd say so. Though, once again, you'll find people with varying answers.

6- How mentally stable was KF Vader relatively speaking and why did his condition worsen later on?

As of Operation Knightfall, Anakin has basically snuffed out his fear entirely, so more mentally stable than any other iteration of himself, but obviously no one using the DS for the first time is ever truly "mentally stable". As for Mustafar Vader, the idea is that after Operation Knightfall his fear returned (stated in the novel), so that's why he's weaker combatively.


Last edited by NotAA3 on June 22nd 2020, 12:33 pm; edited 2 times in total
Sjuttiosju
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on June 22nd 2020, 7:04 am
@Azronger:

ROTS Yoda is matching Sidious, who is more powerful than KF Vader per a majority of sources.

Wouldn't this be overruled by Lucas making explicit mention of the two's equality?

Agreed with the rest though.
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on June 22nd 2020, 7:30 am
@Sjuttiosju Lucas said Mustafar Vader and Sidious are equals, meaning Sidious is stronger than KF Vader.

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on June 22nd 2020, 7:45 am
@Azronger: The context of the statement surrounding Mustafar lowkey slipped my mind while replying lol. Thanks for reminding me.
Darth Nihilus
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on June 22nd 2020, 12:14 pm
Thanks for the answers everyone.

So what I am getting here is that there is a debate between who is more powerful between Knightfall Vader or Mustafar Vader with some claiming Knightfall was in a better mental condition and so more powerful combatively than Mustafar Vader. But if there are sources stating that Yoda is more powerful than Knightfall Vader and Mustafar is known to be on par with Yoda/Sidious, then wouldn't this definitely put Mustafar Vader over Knightfall? Also why would Mustafar Vader be weaker due to his fear and rage? These feelings enhance the dark side in someone and not render it. So he should be even more powerful than Knightfall Vader if these feelings are greater than before.

Also I am guessing the only reason Obi Wan wasn't decimated (like Dooku) by Mustafar Vader is because Obi Wan knew Anakin and how he fights really well(even instinctively). So he was able to hold his own through this.

As for Yoda not being able to decimate Dooku in AOTC, like Vader did, wasn't Yoda pretty much just as powerful between AOTC and ROTS?
NotAA3
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on June 22nd 2020, 12:50 pm
@Darth Nihilus

Thanks for the answers everyone.

You're welcome. To clarify a small detail in my post:

I wrote:Palpatine, Yoda, and KF Vader are all tier 9s, and I'd rank them in that order.

I originally - accidentally - wrote these 3 the other way round, but it's been fixed now. In terms of their saber ability, I'd rank them Palpatine < Yoda < KF Vader (this is not ranking them overall).

So what I am getting here is that there is a debate between who is more powerful between Knightfall Vader or Mustafar Vader with some claiming Knightfall was in a better mental condition and so more powerful combatively than Mustafar Vader.

Yes.

But if there are sources stating that Yoda is more powerful than Knightfall Vader and Mustafar is known to be on par with Yoda/Sidious, then wouldn't this definitely put Mustafar Vader over Knightfall?

As far as I'm aware, no source places Yoda over Knightfall Vader. In fact, Anakin has more most powerful Jedi quotes (when he was weaker than he was in Operation Knightfall) than Yoda, and statements regarding him during Operation Knightfall itself suggest he's superior to Sidious.

Also why would Mustafar Vader be weaker due to his fear and rage?

While they obviously fuel the Dark Side they can overwhelm Anakin to the point where he's unable to fully channel his power - provided they remain in his head. On the Invisible Hand - against Dooku - Anakin unleashes these emotions into the fight, so his head is "as clear as a crystal bell", and all his doubts "shrivel" in the flame of his furnace heart; and during Operation Knightfall, Anakin crushes the metaphorical dragon - which represents his fear - beneath his heel; but on Mustafar, these emotions are heightened and he's unable to rid himself of his fear - it's in his head - so he doesn't have the same pristine clarity he does in either of the two aforementioned instances.

These feelings enhance the dark side in someone and not render it. So he should be even more powerful than Knightfall Vader if these feelings are greater than before.

While these emotions do enhance the Dark Side, we have seen characters be overwhelmed by negative emotions, and thus be hindered. HK-47 even comments on this in KOTOR 2 stating that "fear" is "rarely a strength to the Sith Code":

HK-47 wrote:Generally, this was done by broadcasting strong emotions while thinking about something else. It was a curious technique, but it seemed to be effective in blinding Jedi. Whether guilt, lust, fear - they act as mental interference, making finding the true intentions of the broadcasting meatbag difficult. Obviously, a Force Sensitive broadcasting such emotions puts themselves at risk of not using the Force "properly," since to use it seems to require an inner calm that most meatbags do not possess. As much as the Jedi could not use such a technique, the Sith Lords cannot use it for much the same reasons - such passions as guilt, lust, and fear are rarely strengths to the Sith code.

Also I am guessing the only reason Obi Wan wasn't decimated (like Dooku) by Mustafar Vader is because Obi Wan knew Anakin and how he fights really well(even instinctively). So he was able to hold his own through this.

Yes.

As for Yoda not being able to decimate Dooku in AOTC, like Vader did, wasn't Yoda pretty much just as powerful between AOTC and ROTS?

I think so, though others disagree.
Darth Nihilus
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on June 22nd 2020, 1:12 pm
@NotAA3

Oh I see what you mean now. So essentially his feelings during Mustafar have reached a heightened level and pretty much overwhelmed his mind to the point that he did not have the same clarity and perception as in Knightfall, where he wasn't distracted by those feelings. So his clarity was much clearer during Knightfall and not 'foggy' as in Mustafar I am guessing. And since his mindset was distracted and overwhelmed, he could not fight with as much focus and perception as in Knightfall. He is not weaker than Knightfall technically speaking, but his mindset is distracted and so he is not able to combat as effectively on Mustafar.

But what exactly made those feelings increase/enhance and impact him like that on Mustafar? Was it Padme and Vader thinking she trusted/sided with Obi Wan over him? If I remember correctly, this definitely would have had an impact on him and created conflict within his feelings.
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Knightfall Vader Questions Empty Re: Knightfall Vader Questions

on June 22nd 2020, 1:54 pm
@Darth Nihilus wrote:So I am sort of new to this Era and don't have much knowledge on this but I have been interested in KF Vader recently and have some questions. Also any other information (even if irrelevant) would be nice.

1- Why would is Mustafar Vader considered weaker than KF Vader? Isn't Mustafar Vader after KF Vader and so he would be more immersed in the dark side? Was it his mental condition that rendered his power?

his mental condition was not the proper during his fight with kenobi although its confirmed by lucas that he is= rots sidious by this point.

2- If KF Vader was able to decimate Dooku in seconds, wouldn't that put him above Yoda who was not able to do the same and matched evenly with Dooku in that time frame? I think it's also stated that Yoda and Dooku are equals in Force power.

very likely but ofc there is some other sources that state yoda was gaining the upper hand against dooku during his duel and that the only chance of survival was escape.

3- Would KF Vader be able to defeat ROTS Sidious?

honestly i doubt it kfv is the most formidable version of vader but it cant compare to a guy who have more mastery,control of his power and skill.

4- Who is considered a tier 9 and how would the list go? (from lowest to highest)

yoda,mace windu,kfv and sidious are the only tier 9 

5- Is KF Vader more skilled as a duelist (combined with his rage hits) than Yoda?
gillard confirmed he have least faults in his style of fightning compared to the other tier nines so thats your answer 



6- How mentally stable was KF Vader relatively speaking and why did his condition worsen later on?

during operation knightfall its the time vader takes his first steps on the dark side of the force he feel not remorse of his actions until mustafar.
SnowxElf
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on June 22nd 2020, 1:58 pm
@Azronger

1. Mustafar Vader is just as, if not more powerful than Knightfall Vader per Lucas and other sources.


Source?


Aren't there there two versions of Mustafar Vader? The one that arrived and killed the separatist and the other that fought Obi. It is quite clear that the Vader that killed the separatist is far more composed than the one that fought Obi.
 
If you read the novel, you will see that the Vader that killed the separatist had a completely different personality (joyful) than the Vader that Obi fought (distressed). On screen it also differentiates the two because the Vader that kills the separatist was shown to have his eyes yellow from the darkside. While the Anakin that Obi fought was seen crying before the fight and in general was not mentally composed (he literally strangled his own wife).
MasterCilghal
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on June 22nd 2020, 3:04 pm
@Darth Nihilus wrote:As for Yoda not being able to decimate Dooku in AOTC, like Vader did, wasn't Yoda pretty much just as powerful between AOTC and ROTS?

While not downright confirmed by the lore, it’s very possible Yoda might have experienced a noticeable degree of growth after his training under Qui Gon’s spirit. This is somewhat eluded to in the databank. 

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Usually, gaining a greater understanding of the force results, especially in such a way, results in a power increase, which might explain the discrepancies between Anakin’s and Yoda’s respective performances against Dooku. That said, it’s totally possible Anakin on the IH (after he enters his “Zonakin” state) might be above Yoda.
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on June 23rd 2020, 12:53 am
@MasterCilghal That would be a very low possibility as he is still an 8 there while Yoda is a 9.

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