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Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Darth Nihilus and the Ancient Sith - A big misinterpretation Empty Darth Nihilus and the Ancient Sith - A big misinterpretation

on June 20th 2020, 2:25 am
Hello everyone,
 
Before I begin, I would like to give credit to @S_W_LeGenD and Freedon Nadd (from KMC) for helping me out with this thread.
 
As for the thread, I am going into the topic relating to Nihilus and the ancient Sith. Many people claim that Nihilus is ‘confirmed’ as below the ancient Sith such as Exar Kun,Freedon Nadd and Naga Sadow. This mainly comes from two quotes and a ‘confirmation’ from Chris on one of these quotes which seemingly confirms Nihilus is below these ancients. I will be discussing this thoroughly in this thread through the two quotes themselves and further going into who the ‘ancient Sith’ were actually being alluded to in KOTOR 2 and how it could not have been Exar Kun or the others anyway.
 
Chris’s ‘confirmation’ and the ‘children’ quote
 
Chris did not confirm or say that Nihilus is below the ancients (at least the ancients that we know and not the unmade KOTOR 3 ones; further on this later). Let us take a look at what Chris said:
 
"Kreia is setting the stage for what we imagined KOTOR3 to be, and as we had a sense for the power that we wanted those Sith Lords to reveal, her predictions are accurate. And yes, she had a number of Sith holocrons that she had read (the ones on Telos)."
 
-Chris Avellone, lead writer of Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords
 
The above, I believe, was said in response to the following quote, which many people took as Chris confirming Nihilus is below Exar Kun and the others:
 
Kreia: “If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old masters.”
 
 
Let us take a further look at the context surrounding the above quote and where it came from:
 
Kreia: This was the tomb of Tulak Hord, known as the greatest lightsaber duelist of the Sith Lords. His skill was considered remarkable even in his time, when many true lightsaber masters lived.
 
Meetra: Are you saying modern Jedi are poorly skilled with the lightsaber?
 
Kreia: If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old masters.
 
Meetra: What made him so good?
 
Kreia: This is unknown. But supposedly he created a holocron to teach his technique to other Sith. The holocron would have been laid to rest in his tomb.
 
Kreia’s ‘children’ quote was specifically about lightsaber combat and lightsaber skill relative to the modern Jedi. Let us break it down. Kreia first opens up about Tulak Hord and goes into how great of a lightsaber duelist he was and praises his ‘remarkable’ skill and how he was the best lightsaber duelist even during a time where ‘true lightsaber masters lived.’ Meetra then asks Kreia if the modern Jedi are poorly skilled with lightsabers. Kreia responds to that question, about skill with lightsabers, by stating the ‘children’ quote. Notice how Kreia says ‘playing with toys’ which would not have made much sense if we are talking about power, especially when the context leading to this was strictly about lightsaber combat and skill. The ‘playing with toys’ is directly related to lightsaber combat and how the modern Jedi carry lightsabers like they are ‘playing with toys’. Not only that, but notice how Kreia also mentions the ‘prowess of the old masters’ part. ‘Prowess’ is defined as skill/expertise/mastery which is directly related to technique/skill of something and not raw power. The ‘the old masters’ part of the quote is directly related to the ‘when many true lightsaber masters lived’ in the previous quote by Kreia. Put simply, Kreia is essentially talking about how Tulak was the greatest lightsaber duelist and how he was considered remarkable even during a time when ‘true lightsaber masters’ lived and then relates it the modern Jedi by saying that they are essentially ‘playing with toys’ instead of lightsabers when compared to the skill/mastery of the old masters lightsaber combat (i.e the true lightsaber masters period). This is even further supported by the last quote where, after Meetra asks what made Tulak so good, Kreia responds by saying that it is ‘unknown’ but that Tulak made a holocron to teach his technique of lightsaber combat to others. The fact that Kreia answers with ‘technique’ right after Meetra questions what made Tulak ‘so good’, is a further indication that this wasn’t about the power of the ancients and that it wasn’t raw power that made Tulak ‘so good’, but instead it was his lightsaber combat skills/technique relative to the modern Jedi. And this is all shown in the context of the conversation that took place.
 
The ‘children’ quote has been heavily misused and misinterpreted for years by some people to claim that Nihilus is ‘confirmed’ to be below Kun and the others when in fact its context is taken entirely out of place. The quote is specifically about lightsaber combat/skill of modern Jedi relative to the ancient Sith and not power.
 
 
The ‘rivalling’ quote and its meaning
 
Now let us take a look on the other quote regarding Nihilus ‘rivaling’ the ancients and try to break it down as well:
 
"The blind seer, her master harnessed this technique and he is rapidly approaching the height of its power. I fear he may even rival some of the ancient Sith. He is already more of a force than a living thing, a hole in the Force that threatens to draw everything to it.”
 
-Kreia, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords
 
Looking at the context of the quote above, Kreia does not claim that Nihilus ‘may rival’ the ancients in power. She is firstly claiming that Nihilus is rivaling these ‘ancients’ in the potency of his technique and how effective he was relative to the ancient Sith in utilizing his technique and this is also evident in how she mentions that Nihilus is ‘approaching’ the height of its power (the technique) which is in direct analogy to ‘rivalling’ in the next part of the quote. Secondly, Kreia is also claiming that Nihilus is rivaling these ‘ancients’ in terms of his entity state and being ‘already more of a force than a living thing.’ The ‘already’ here has significance as it is alluding to what has been previously said (i.e the rivalling). Both of these claims by Kreia are directly attributed to the ancient Sith Vitiate and there is a further confirmation on this later on.
 
Let us look at the first claim. We already know that Nihilus harnessed this technique and took it to a whole new level with him being able to consume entire planets with it. Looking back at the ancient Sith, none of them have been mentioned to be able to do this and utilize the technique to the extent that Nihilus did. They were only able to do such things through rituals (Nathema, thought bomb) and thus would only be able to rival Nihilus in this technique by relying on such rituals. The ancient Sith rituals like the thought bomb which when exploded annihilated every Force being caught within its blast and the ritual of Nathema(by Vitiate) essentially annihilated the planet and consumed it entirely (just like Nihilus does). These rituals were extremely potent and even Darth Bane was too afraid to even consider trying them when he first heard of them. The rituals had impacts directly similar to Nihilus and on a planetary scale which would have easily lead Kreia to rival Nihilus and his technique to what the ancient Sith were also able to cause. The only way for the ancients to match Nihilus with the technique is through other means than simply their potency of the technique itself. It’s even mentioned that the ancient Sith, whilst knowing Nihilus’s technique, did not utilize it as much to avoid losing their identity, just like Nihilus eventually did. And this is further supported by Chris when he mentions that Kreia had a number of the Sith holocrons and this would have probably included Darth Revan’s holocron which details Vitiate’s Nathema ritual that had impacts directly similar to Nihilus on a planetary scale.
 
Now the other claim of the quote is that Kreia was rivalling Nihilus to the ancient Sith based on his entity state and being more of a force than a living thing. And this is evident by how Kreia mentions the ‘rival’ part and right after mentions that Nihilus is ‘already’ more of a force than a living thing. The ‘already’ here has significance as it is alluding to what has been previously said (i.e the rivaling). So Kreia claiming Nihilus is already more of a force than a living thing means she was rivaling/comparing Nihilus to the ancient Sith based on this. And this can be attributed to the ancient Sith Vitiate again who became an immortal and no longer a normal being after his Nathema ritual. And this directly correlates to Nihilus since both consumed entire planets, both are no longer normal beings and both have an effect of hunger. There is no constraint that the phrase ‘ancient Sith’ has to virtually refer to literally every ancient Sith that existed, especially when KOTOR 2’s ‘ancient Sith’ were being set up and meant to be revealed in KOTOR 3.
 
The bottom line here is that Kreia rivals Nihilus based on two things. First, is the potency of his technique on a planetary scale which would have directly caused her to rival Nihilus to Vitiate’s Nathema ritual, which she would have knowledge of from the Sith holocrons Chris confirms Kreia had access to. Secondly, Kreia rivals Nihilus based on his entity state which is, again, related to Vititate’s state of no longer being a ‘living being’.
 
Further Elaboration on Kreia’s claims
 
Chris Avellone has expanded upon and elaborated more on his 'ancient Sith':
 
Kreia is setting the stage for what we imagined KOTOR 3 to be, and as we had a sense for the power we wanted those Sith Lords to reveal, her predictions are accurate….”

-Chris Avellone , Lead writer of KOTOR 2

 
Considering that KOTOR 3 was never made as intended whilst making KOTOR 2, the Revan novel is the canonical continuation of KOTOR 2 and thus all the ‘ancients’ being built up and set up in KOTOR 2 are to be alluded to the Revan novel as it is ‘our KOTOR 3’ canonically speaking. Even though it was not Chris who made the novel ,and so we don’t really know what Chris would have done with his ‘ancient Sith’, Vitiate is the canonical continuation of KOTOR 2 and thus all of Chris’s ‘ancient Sith’ (being built up in KOTOR 2 for KOTOR 3) are directly attributed to Vitiate even if Chris would not have done that in KOTOR 3. The novel was written to continue what Chris made in KOTOR 2 and as Chris claims that his ancients’ power was to be revealed in KOTOR 3, they are essentially revealed in the Revan novel from our perspective, which means Vitiate is the ‘ancient Sith’ being built up for in KOTOR 2. And there is further confirmation on this later.

Kreia’s predictions at the end of KOTOR 2 were alluding to Tenebrae’s Sith Empire in the Unknown Regions, which is a direct set up for the ‘ancients’ meant to be revealed in KOTOR 3. Kreia does not know that the current Sith Empire is basically the ancient Sith Empire taken upon by Tenebrae.

Let’s state some important points first:

1-Kreia is knowledgeable about some of the ancient Sith and this is confirmed by Chris

2-Kreia knows that a Sith Empire exists in the Outer Regions but does not know that it’s in fact the ancient Sith empire taken upon by Tenebrae

 
3-Chris says that the power of those Sith Lords (I.e the ancient Sith Kreia talks about) was to be revealed in KOTOR 3 meaning that the ‘ancient Sith’ Lords are not dead and would be revealed. This means that Tenebrae himself is who Kreia is referring to when she says ‘ancient Sith’ but Kreia thinks he is dead after all those thousands of years and hence says ‘ancient’ Sith.
 
The ‘ancient Sith’ Kreia talks about is Tenebrae himself and not the other ancients like Exar Kun, Naga Sadow etc…  as they are dead/spirits by this time and so their powers were not going to be shown and revealed in KOTOR 3 meaning that Chris was not alluding to them in his ‘ancient Sith’. On top of all that, Exar Kun and Freedon Nadd were already revealed and mentioned in KOTOR 1 and KOTOR 2 and even beforehand (for example Kun was revealed back in 1994). Tenebrae is the only ancient Sith that was never revealed or mentioned in anyway in either KOTOR 1 or 2 And so it makes sense for it to be Tenebrae considering he is the only ancient Sith that isn't revealed and the only one that's alive. This is all also consistent with the fact that the Revan novel is essentially the continuation of KOTOR 2 and is basically the replacement of KOTOR 3. And Tenebrae is the only ancient Sith revealed in the Revan novel. It all lines up. He was alluding to Tenebrae only as he is the only ancient Sith alive by this time and so would be able to reveal his powers in KOTOR 3( i.e the Revan novel), as stated by Chris. Put simply, the ‘ancient Sith’ Chris and Kreia allude to is Tenebrae himself and not any of the other ancients that we know from our perspective. Note that the ‘ancient Sith’ mentioned in KOTOR 2 would have been more than 1 (not just Vitiate) in KOTOR 3 but since that wasn’t made, then we have to attribute it to the Revan novel instead.
 
The comparison/rivaling here by Kreia is that both, Nihilus and Tenebrae, have drained planets completely out of life with Nihilus draining Katarr and Tenebrae draining Nathema. This big analogy between Nihilus and Tenebrae (the ancient Sith) would have driven Kreia to compare/rival Nihilus to the ancient Sith in terms of this planet draining. Not only that, but this would have driven Kreia to indeed allude to Nihilus rivaling Tenebrae in terms of Nihilus’s draining technique and in terms of being an entity/non human as a result of their planet draining. Tenebrae consuming Nathema has made him an immortal and no longer a natural or a human being and even had a side-effect of hunger on him, similar to Nihilus’s hunger. His consumption of Nathema has made him more of an entity and an immortal being. This is an exact analogy to Nihilus becoming more and more of an entity as he consumes and drains planets and thus why Kreia rivals Nihilus to Tenebrae (the ancient Sith) in terms of no longer being human and more of entities and why she rivals Nihilus’s technique and its potency to the ‘ancient Sith’ (i.e Tenebrae). This is exactly mentioned in Kreia’s quote itself:

“I fear he may even rival some of the ancient Sith. He is already more of a force than a living thing, a hole in the Force that threatens to draw everything into it.”

Notice how Kreia mentions the 'rival' part and right after says that Nihilus is ‘already’ (relating to what has been previously said; i.e the rivaling) more of an entity than a living thing and thus leading to the rivaling/comparison to Tenebrae also being more than a living thing. Note that Kreia is not rivaling Nihilus to Tenebrae’s immortality but to the fact that both of them are entities and not natural living beings anymore due to the fact that both have drained entire planets of the Force. Basically, when Kreia says Nihilus ‘may rival’ the ancient Sith, she is saying that he is becoming more and more of an entity just like Tenebrae, the ancient Sith. She is not comparing Nihilus’s power to the ancient Sith. She is comparing Nihilus’s increasing entity state/form to Tenebrae as he consumes and hungers more and more. Nihilus and Tenebrae have both been explicitly stated to being unnatural beings. This entity state comparison/rivaling by Kreia is even more supported by the following:

[Nihilus]

 
“I fear you are right. And I fear it may prove more than that. War… is a hunger. And there are spirits in the galaxy whose hunger is never satisfied.
 
 
He is a breach in the Force, capable of consuming the lives of those around him. Sometimes the touch is slow, as it is with his crew.”
 
“It is not something he can direct or focus, much like hunger itself. He is more of a hole in the Force than a living thing.
 
- Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
 
 
"... Darth Nihilus, a being of pure hunger and dark side power, was approaching the colony."
 
―The Conclave at Katarr Codex Entry (Star Wars: The Old Republic
 
 
"And it devours him as he devours others - his mere presence kills all around him, slowly, feeding him. He is already dead, it is simply a question of how many he kills before he falls."
 
―Darth Traya (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords
 
 
"Nothing matters except his hunger. Before it devours him totally, Nihilus uses its power to displace his persona into his robes and armor. As his useless body disintegrates, he becomes living primitive intention; at last, the whole of the galaxy becomes food—for Nihilus has become the hunger."
 
―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide
 
 
"He… if he can truly be called a man any longer… is one of the Dark Lords that pursues you. I do not think he knows what you are, not yet."
 
- Kreia, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords
 
 
"Nihilus wore a mask of possible Hendanyn origin and spoke an unsettling, literally extirpating, tongue. Jedi seers sampling it from a Sith holocron proclaimed its intelligibility required mere patience, for Nihilus’ was the language spoken billions of years hence, at the end of all time. Jedi mystics offered a slightly less fantastical hypothesis: impossibly, Nihilus spoke the raw dialect of the Force itself, untranslated by midichlorians - one needed only die to comprehend it."
 
―Abel Peña (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide Author)
 
[Tenebrae]
 
Valkorion is an ancient Sith entity with the power to possess and control the bodies of others, using them as puppets to enforce his will on the galaxy. The Immortal Emperor is his latest mask and Zakuul his greatest, most ambitious endeavor: an idealistic playground where he can shed his past and experience a new life unburdened by archaic Sith teachings..
 
-Star Wars: The Old Republic: Knights of the Fallen Empire: Codex Entry titled "Valkorion."
 
 
Valkorion has lived for millennia, using his dark mastery of the Force to assume many forms. His latest incarnation is Valkorion, the Immortal Emperor of the Eternal Empire.
 
-Star Wars: The Old Republic: Knights of the Eternal Throne: Official Profile
 
 
Over the millennia, Valkorion wore many faces and names: Lord Vitiate; Emperor of the Sith; Eternal Emperor of Zakuul. For centuries upon centuries, he shaped and manipulated galactic events, bending the arc of history to his will during his obsessive quest for immortality. A being of unfathomable power and insatiable appetite, he transcended death multiple times, shedding his physical shells as they were discovered, defeated, and destroyed... only to return in another form.
 
-Star Wars: The Old Republic: Knights of the Eternal Throne: Codex Entry titled "The Fall of Valkorion."
 
 
The Emperor was no longer a member of the Sith species; his power and immortality had transformed him into a being unique in the galaxy.
 
-Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
 
 
He was a living embodiment of the dark side of the Force who delighted in destroying the minds and spirits of those Jedi who came too close to him.
 
-Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
 
 
The Emperor is more than a man - he is the living embodiment of the dark side.
 
 -Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
 
 
The Emperor is the dark side incarnate. You wouldn't stand a chance.....you are nothing to him."
 
-The Emperor's Wrath, Star Wars: The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan
 
 
When the ritual ended, Lord Vitiate emerged as the only survivor. The pain, energy, and suffering of every living entity on the planet fueled his power and would prolong his life for centuries. The lifeless planet of Mediraas became a void in the Force and was erased from history. 
 
-Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
 
 
The Emperor had consumed everything. Life, sound, color, even the Force—nothing remained. This wasn’t about conquest or domination or destroying an enemy—all concepts Scourge embraced.
 
Everything on Nathema had simply been snuffed out, extinguished so completely that it ceased to have any meaning or purpose. It was a vacuum of existence; a blight on the natural order.
 
-Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
 
 
Lord Vitiate takes command of the Sith Empire, now in shambles following the Great Hyperspace War. He executes the Sith Council and consumes the life force of thousands of Sith Lords in a terrifying ritual that extends his life and vastly increases his capacity as a practitioner of the Force. Lord Vitiate declares himself Emperor of the Sith. Under his sovereign rule, the Empire retreats into deep space to rebuild its strength and prepare for vengeance.

-Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

 
All of the above quotes highlight the very clear similarity between Nihilus and Tenebrae’s form/state and is even further supported by their planet draining similarities. Both are beings of pure dark side power and are entities both driven by hunger. This further elaborates on Kreia’s comparison between the two and further shows that Kreia’s comparison was about how Nihilus was becoming closer and closer to reaching/rivaling Tenebrae's entity state. 
 
 
Confirmation of Kreia’s claims and that Vitiate is the ‘ancient Sith’ KOTOR 2 was setting up for KOTOR 3
 
Finally, I just want to say that the 'ancient Sith' that are mentioned most of the time in KOTOR 2 were ones that were meant for KOTOR 3 and were never even made. They are not Exar Kun or Naga Sadow or the rest that we know. Several articles have spoken about and elaborated further on what Chris was going to do in KOTOR 3. It is of great importance to note that the 'ancient Sith' that KOTOR 2 was building up were meant to be 'gradually revealed' in KOTOR 3. Yet, many of the ancients we know now were already revealed in KOTOR 1 and 2 and even made beforehand.
 
Article 1
 
 
[ “These guys would just be monsters,” Avellone said. “These would have a level of power that was considerable, but at the same time you’d be able to dig more into psychologies, and their personalities, their history, and even how they dealt with the player.”
 
The locations in the game – planets, moons, star systems – would all bear the unique stamp of their Sith ruler, a kind of devastation and terror unique to each of the lords.
 
Unlike Supreme Leader Snoke, Avellone says the ancient Sith lords created for Knights of the Old Republic 3 would be gradually revealed and clarified over the course of the game, which would have given players the opportunity to learn their backstories and motivations.
 
Of course, we’ll never know what Obsidian had in store for us. The game was cancelled when LucasArts ran into financial problems, and while BioWare has reportedly pitched a third game in the series to EA several times, the concept was eventually mothballed. ]
 
Article 2
 
https://www.pcgamer.com/chris-avellone-reveals-planned-kotor-3-premise-and-it-involved-battling-ancient-sith-lords/ :
 
[ Speaking to VG247 , Avellone said the dev team always imagined the series as a trilogy, and started "working on the third game pitch" after the release of KOTOR 2. The plan was for the player to follow the trail of Darth Revan across the galaxy and battle ancient Sith Lords, "who are far more terrifying than the Darths that show up". As well as fighting these powerful enemies, you'd be able to uncover their origin stories, he said.
 
"These guys would just be monsters. These would have a level of power that was considerable, but at the same time you’d be able to dig more into their psychologies, and their personalities, their history, and even how they dealt with the player, how they talk with the player, the different powers they cultivated and developed, and for some of them like—they’re the ancients, so they’re not just ruling a solar system, [but] swathes of the galaxy," he explained.
 
“So the places you travel to [you’d see] how they left their stamp on that world, or that solar system, or whatever collection of moons. You’d see how horrible that was. Part of that environment would tell a story about that. [That] would be a great, epic way to end the trilogy. The Old Republic are out there. We just didn’t get a chance to do it."  ]
 
Article 3 :
 
https://nordic.ign.com/star-wars-knights-of-the-old-republic-iii-rumored/24343/news/obsidians-plan-for-star-wars-knights-of-the-old-republic-3-featured-monstrous-sith-lords
 
[ Obsidian had big plans for Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 3, and although the game never saw the light of day, one of its writers has given us a look into what could have been for this planned next entry in the beloved KOTOR series.
 
As Reboot Develop, VG247 spoke to lead writer and designer for Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords and asked him if Obsidian had ever started work on a story for Knights of the Old Republic 3.
Avellone confirmed that work was underway, as the team always envisioned the KOTOR story to be a trilogy.
 
"When we finished the second one we were all trying to restore our lives back to sanity,” Avellone remembers. “We did start working on the third game pitch, because we always imagined the trilogy. Even when working on the second game, we [tried] to foreshadow what Darth Revan was doing in the second game, and he wasn’t always just ruthlessly and mindlessly blowing everything up. He actually had a larger plan because there was some greater manipulation and threat going on."
 
The third game involved you, as a player character, following where Revan went and then taking the battle to the really ancient Sith lords who are far more terrifying than the Darths that show up. These guys would just be monsters. These would have a level of power that was considerable, but at the same time you’d be able to dig more into their psychologies, and their personalities, their history, and even how they dealt with the player, how they talk with the player, the different powers they cultivated and developed, and for some of them like – they’re the ancients, so they’re not just ruling a solar system, [but] swathes of the galaxy."
 
Avellone also brought up how these Sith lords would be "initially mysterious, but they wouldn't be unknowable like Snoke in the newer films." A huge part of KOTOR 3 would be uncovering their origin stories and learning about what brought them to their height of power and...well...evilness. ]
 
 
Article 4:
 
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-07-31-fear-is-the-path-to-the-dark-side
 
[ "There's a lot of design decisions that occurred in Knights of the Old Republic 2 that, to this day, I still question whether that was the right thing to do or not, and one was, ideally we should have maybe looked for more ways to introduce Revan in the sequel.


"But then again," he adds, "when we were plotting out the idea of doing the third game we just thought it would be cool if we were foreshadowing what Revan was really doing in Knights of the Old Republic 1, and what he was preparing for in Knights of the Old Republic 2, and then bring it to a close, the end of the trilogy, but we didn't get a chance to do that."


That third game would cast you as "the Exile" and allow you to track Revan's path. "Whether you encounter him or not..." he pauses, wary of spoilers in case the game ever happens in the future. "The idea was that even before the 'modern day' Sith came into being in The Old Republic ... there were even more distant Sith Lords that were considered the true Sith, and the idea that they were still lurking out there in the galaxy waiting for a chance to strike, kind of like the Shadows in Babylon 5, I thought would be a cool finale for that Old Republic trilogy.


"Part of the fun with designing them," he adds, "was if you have these incredibly powerful Force users and they have their whole hidden domain out in the distant reaches of the galaxy, what would that Sith empire really look like at the hands of these things? 


"If they could shape entire planets or galaxies or nebulas, and they had all these slave races at their disposal, how cool would that be, to go into the heart of darkness and you're the lone Jedi and/or new version of the Sith confronting these guys? What would that be like? I thought that would be pretty epic." ]
 
The articles make it really clear what KOTOR 2 was setting up for in KOTOR 3. Chris mentions that KOTOR 2 tried to foreshadow what Revan was doing and how there was a ‘greater manipulation and threat going on’. And this is exactly what takes place in the Revan novel leading to Vitiate. Chris also mentions that we were meant to be ‘The Exile’ and 'follow where Revan went' and 'taking the battle to the really ancient Sith lords' and this is exactly what takes place in the Revan novel. Chris even mentions that these Sith lords ‘were still lurking out there in the galaxy waiting for a chance to strike’ and ‘have their whole hidden domain out in the distant reaches of the galaxy’ which ,again, is directly related to Vitiate and takes place in the Revan novel. To top it all off, Chris also mentions that these ancient Sith would be ‘gradually revealed’, ‘initially mysterious’ and that a huge part of KOTOR 3 would be to uncover their origin stories, backstories and history. And this is exactly what takes place in the Revan novel for Vitiate, the ancient Sith.  All of the above articles and points directly support Kreia’s claims from earlier relating to Vitiate and Nihilus and how the ‘ancient Sith’ in KOTOR 2 allude to Vitiate (Even if this isn’t what Chris might have done, this is what ends up happening canonically in the Revan novel) and they also show the direct contradiction to the claim that the 'ancients' building/set up in  KOTOR 2 refer to Exar Kun and the others due to what the articles have pointed out regarding what the ancients, which Nihilus is alluded to, were going to be in KOTOR 3. Also the fact that the spirit of Freedon Nad was destroyed by KOTOR 2’s timeline and Naga Sadow and Kun were virtually spirits by KOTOR 2’s timeline support this as well. It would have been virtually impossible to ‘follow Revan’ to them and ‘battle’ them as the ‘really ancient Sith lords’ , especially when the ancient Sith alluded to in KOTOR 2 were meant to be ‘still lurking out waiting for a chance to strike’ and ‘have their whole hidden domain out in the distant reaches of the galaxy’. All of the above are directly alluded to Vitiate, are consistent and in line with the ‘canonical KOTOR 3’ the Revan novel and support Kreia’s claims relating Nihilus to Vitiate, who is essentially the ‘Ancient Sith’ KOTOR 2 was alluding to as the articles and Chris have pointed out.


Last edited by Darth Nihilus on July 1st 2020, 10:11 am; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : Changed the blog completely.)
LadyKulvax
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Darth Nihilus and the Ancient Sith - A big misinterpretation Empty Re: Darth Nihilus and the Ancient Sith - A big misinterpretation

on June 21st 2020, 12:43 am
Your entire blog falls flat when considering that the quote in question put to Avellone is the following:

If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old masters.

The quote applies to the 'true' Sith over-all, be it past, present or future. Which is made even more obvious when you take Avellone's full quote and don't cut out context:

"Kreia is setting the stage for what we imagined KOTOR3 to be, and as we had a sense for the power that we wanted those Sith Lords to reveal, her predictions are accurate. And yes, she had a number of Sith holocrons that she had read (the ones on Telos)."

These numerous attempts at divorcing Nihilus from the narrative established within the game are really blatant. But none moreso than the 'misinterpretation' of this quote:

”What do you wish to hear? That I once believed in the code of the Jedi? That I felt the call of the Sith, that perhaps, once, I held the galaxy by its throat? That for every good work that I did, I brought equal harm upon the galaxy? That perhaps what the greatest of the Sith Lords knew of evil, they learned from me? What would it matter now? There is only so much comfort in knowing such things, and it is not who I am now.”

By no means is Kreia saying Nihilus is the greatest of the Sith Lords ever. She's talking about her own apprentices who fell. Where you possibly found a historical context here is beyond me.

And, I don't know why I have to explain this. But none of those quotes are comparing Nihilus to Vitiate directly. The most loose of interpretations compare him to the true Sith over-all. You could've at least tried to salvage this by appealing to the Sith Entity in the Sith Warrior storyline, who treats Vitiate like he's the most perfect thing ever. But even then, that's a very far cry.

Sorry to say, but this is just falsehood after falsehood.
Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Darth Nihilus and the Ancient Sith - A big misinterpretation Empty Re: Darth Nihilus and the Ancient Sith - A big misinterpretation

on June 21st 2020, 2:47 am
@LadyKulvax wrote:Your entire blog falls flat when considering that the quote in question put to Avellone is the following:

If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old masters.

The quote applies to the 'true' Sith over-all, be it past, present or future. Which is made even more obvious when you take Avellone's full quote and don't cut out context:

"Kreia is setting the stage for what we imagined KOTOR3 to be, and as we had a sense for the power that we wanted those Sith Lords to reveal, her predictions are accurate. And yes, she had a number of Sith holocrons that she had read (the ones on Telos)."

These numerous attempts at divorcing Nihilus from the narrative established within the game are really blatant. But none moreso than the 'misinterpretation' of this quote:

”What do you wish to hear? That I once believed in the code of the Jedi? That I felt the call of the Sith, that perhaps, once, I held the galaxy by its throat? That for every good work that I did, I brought equal harm upon the galaxy? That perhaps what the greatest of the Sith Lords knew of evil, they learned from me? What would it matter now? There is only so much comfort in knowing such things, and it is not who I am now.”

By no means is Kreia saying Nihilus is the greatest of the Sith Lords ever. She's talking about her own apprentices who fell. Where you possibly found a historical context here is beyond me.

And, I don't know why I have to explain this. But none of those quotes are comparing Nihilus to Vitiate directly. The most loose of interpretations compare him to the true Sith over-all. You could've at least tried to salvage this by appealing to the Sith Entity in the Sith Warrior storyline, who treats Vitiate like he's the most perfect thing ever. But even then, that's a very far cry.

Sorry to say, but this is just falsehood after falsehood.

I don't even need to address your 'flaw' attempts when you have completely ignored Kreia's quote itself and the context surrounding it which I have addressed in the blog. Kreia is comparing Nihilus to the ancient Sith on the basis of him being 'already more of a force than a living thing.' And that is very clearly stated and shown in her 'Ancient Sith' quote and I have already elaborated on that in the blog. So even if you were literally going to argue against everything I said, the quote and its context is very clear and it is the fact that Kreia is not comparing/rivaling Nihilus to the ancient Sith in terms of power, as has been thought previously. There isn't really a way around this. The context of the quote is very clear and is literally stated there.

And what do you mean that Kreia is talking about her 'own apprentices who fell' ? Kreia is saying that the 'greatest of the Sith Lords' learned and was taught in the dark side by Kreia. And who was taught and trained in the dark side by Kreia? Nihilus and not some of those 'apprentices who fell' when Kreia was a Jedi Master back then and was not even a Sith lord to even teach the dark side in the first place.  Your blatant interpretation does not even make any sense. If Kreia was talking about her apprentices who fell, then why would she call them the greatest of the Sith Lords when most of them are unknown people that we have never even heard of least to think that they are some of the greatest Sith Lords. Not only that, but right after Kreia mentions that statement, she explains to Meetra her story and the scene of Nihilus and Sion betraying Kreia plays. So not only does logic indicate that the quote is about Nihilus, this is even backed up by the context. You genuinely have no case here.
 

Meetra: “Kreia, what are you – are you a Jedi, a Sith?”


Kreia: “Does it matter? Of course it does, such titles allow you to break the galaxy into light and dark, categorize it. Perhaps I am neither, and I hold both as what they are, places of a whole. Know that I am your teacher, and that is enough."


Meetra: ” To ally myself with someone without knowing their allegiance is unwise.”


Kreia: ”What do you wish to hear? That I once believed in the code of the Jedi? That I felt the call of the Sith, that perhaps, once, I held the galaxy by its throat? That for every good work that I did, I brought equal harm upon the galaxy? That perhaps what the greatest of the Sith Lords knew of evil, they learned from me? What would it matter now? There is only so much comfort in knowing such things, and it is not who I am now.”


Meetra: “I still wish to hear the story.”


[Scene of Kreia getting betrayed by Sion and Nihilus plays]


Kreia:  "Take what strength you may steal from me, and that is all I need be to you."
Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Darth Nihilus and the Ancient Sith - A big misinterpretation Empty Re: Darth Nihilus and the Ancient Sith - A big misinterpretation

on July 1st 2020, 10:37 am
EDIT: Completely changed the blog.
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Darth Nihilus and the Ancient Sith - A big misinterpretation Empty Re: Darth Nihilus and the Ancient Sith - A big misinterpretation

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