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Jake
Jake

Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 Empty Re: Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress

on Thu 27 Jun - 0:24
Karkko and Poof’s showings absolutely shit on being a nexus, scaling above generic accolades and getting noticed by the Emperor.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level One
Level One

Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 Empty Re: Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress

on Thu 27 Jun - 0:28
Karkko doesn't scale from Terrak Morrhage who as a weakened spirit can fill the Malachor system with dark side energy with his mere presence. Spirit!Morrhage isn't even close to the strength he achieved as Vivicar.

Poof isn't planetary, lmfao.
Jake
Jake

Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 Empty Re: Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress

on Thu 27 Jun - 0:34
Karkko’s power as a threat to the whole galaxy on his own is more impressive. The planet corruption was done in a matter of minutes, then he was killed. It definitely would’ve spread further given the chance.

A fraction of Poof’s power is planetary.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level One
Level One

Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 Empty Re: Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress

on Thu 27 Jun - 1:31
Morrhage was a galactic threat too. I don't even get what you're arguing at this point. Vivicar's plague had spread galaxy-wide at the point the Barsen'thor killed him, he just hadn't fully infected every Jedi he'd come in contact with.

Vivicar was casually dominating hundreds of Jedi Masters such as Yuon Par who Nomi Sunrider considered far too powerful to be telepathically influenced.

The Poof wank was debunked to be a mere chain reaction, not genuinely planetary destruction.
Jake
Jake

Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 Empty Re: Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress

on Thu 27 Jun - 3:10
That source being IU, when we have multiple OU ones stating the complete opposite, as well as the comic itself.
MacialRecognition
MacialRecognition

Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 Empty Re: Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress

on Fri 28 Jun - 11:59
Stop it, Kulvax. I'm not changing my mind. The Outlander wins this.
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Three
Level Three

Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 Empty Re: Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress

on Fri 28 Jun - 14:18
Lmao.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level One
Level One

Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 Empty Re: Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress

on Fri 28 Jun - 14:20
Why are you laughing? He's a worse troll than 2016 Carthage.
avatar
Quorian Debatist

Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 Empty Re: Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress

on Wed 3 Jul - 23:27
@LadyKulvax wrote:This is the kind of utterly insane scaling Outlander gets, which is why there's no way on earth that the team wins:

(Valkorion >> Spirit!Valkorion >> Outlander, Arcann & Spirit!Vaylin >>) The Outlander > Vaylin >> Chained!Vaylin ~ Arcann > (Weakened)Spirit!Valkorion >>> Spirit!Vitiate ~ Ziost > YavinIV!Vitiate > Dark Revan >> Hero of Tython, Lord Scourge, Darth Marr, Satele Shan, Lana Beniko & the Protagonist Strike Team >> Protagonist Strike Team (aid of mental protection) > Dread Masters ~ multi-system power projection; TK dominating DreadWar!Hero of Tython; destroying fleets >> Emperor Malgus ~ Coalition Strike Team >>

1.ActIII Barsen'thor > First Son > > Children of the Emperor >/~ Act II Barsen'thor >> EoActIBarsen'thor > Lord Vivicar ~ 100s of Jedi Masters >> Terrak Morrhage ~ system-wide dark side nexus.

2.ActIIIDarth Nox >> Darth Thanaton >>> Teneb Kel ~\< Exal Kressh >> Children of the Emperor > ActIIBarsen'thor >> EoActIBarsen'thor > Lord Vivicar ~ Draining 100s of Jedi Masters >> Terrak Morrhage ~ system-wide dark side nexus.

3.ActIII Wrath > Sel-Makor >> 'False Voice' Baras > Darth Ekkage > Darth Vengean > Master Wyellett > Xerender > Tol Braga > Warren Sedoru > Ven Zallow ~ Darth Malgus > Aryn Leneer > Hope!Malgus > Knight Satele Shan > Lord Malgus ~ Kao Cen Darach > ToC!Darth Baras > Pre-Sel Makor amp!Baras > Lord Fulminiss ~ breaking the minds of four elite Sith Lords, strong enough to be hand-selected by the Emperor for his death cult.

4.Act III Slayer > (Weakened) Vitiate > Spirit!Vitiate ~ Dark Temple destruction > Tol Braga, Warren Sedoru, Leeha Narezz, Act II Slayer > Act II Slayer ~ Lord Scourge > Tol Braga > Warren Sedoru > Leeha Narezz ~ all three are the most powerful Jedi and best warriors, in the Jedi Order.

The Outlander stomps.

Kenobi was experiencing near daily growth and was growing the entire time during the war, so, with that in mind we know he was growing more powerful every battle. Especially since he was still in his prime at this point in time.

This Maul ~ Utapau!Kenobi > InvisibleHand!Kenobi > Cato Neimoidia!Kenobi > Boz Pity!Kenobi > Coruscant!Kenobi > Rendili!Kenobi > Titavian!Kenobi > Vjun!Kenobi > Onderon!Kenobi > Mandolore!Kenobi > Coruscant!Kenobi > Florrum!Kenobi > Turtle Tanker!Kenobi > Raydonia!Kenobi > Florrum!Kenobi > Negotiator!Kenobi > Theed!Kenobi > The BOX!Kenobi > Rako Hardeen Kenobi > Kadavo!Kenobi > Zygerria!Kenobi > Kiros!Kenobi > Umbara!Kenobi >  Starcrusher!Kenobi > Lola Sayu!Kenobi > Mortis!Kenobi > Toydaria!Kenobi > Sullust!Kenobi > Death Canyon!Kenobi > Teth!Kenobi > Nal Hutta!Kenobi >  Coruscant!Kenobi > Coronet!Kenobi > Concordia!Kenobi > Mandolore!Kenobi > Kamino!Kenobi > Saleucami!Kenobi > Geonosis!Kenobi > Valahari!Kenobi > Zillo Beast Kenobi > Malastare!Kenobi > Felucia!Kenobi >  Rogue Antar system!Kenobi > Jedi Temple!Kenobi > Rodia!Kenobi > Jedi Temple!Kenobi > Felucia!Kenobi > Lessu!Kenobi > Nabat!Kenobi > Iego!Kenobi > Blue Shadow Virus!Kenobi > Orto Plutonia!Kenobi >  Florrum!Kenobi > Vanqor!Kenobi > Bothawui!Kenobi > Zigoola!Kenobi > Devestation!Kenobi > 3 Planet!Kenobi > Malevolence!Kenobi > Gwori!Kenobi > Teth!Kenobi > Tatooine!Kenobi > Christophsis!Kenobi > Azure!Kenobi > Genian!Kenobi >  Merson asteroid belt!Kenobi > Riflor!Kenobi > Rattatak!Kenobi > Jabiim!Kenobi > Ord Cestus!Kenobi > Skye!Kenobi > Battle of Hypori!Kenobi > Battle of Muunilinst!Kenobi > Queyta!Kenobi > Ohma-D'un!Kenobi > Dark Reaper(4planets)!Kenobi > Kamino!Kenobi > Geonosis1stbattle!Kenobi > Kamino!Kenobi > Coruscant!Kenobi > Ansion!Kenobi > Random Planet!Kenobi > Korriban!Kenobi > Falleen!Kenobi > Romin!Kenobi > Typha-Dor!Kenobi > Vanqor!Kenobi > Mawan!Kenobi > Andara!Kenobi > Ragoon VI!Kenobi > Barlok!Kenobi > Radnor!Kenobi > Nar Shaddaa!Kenobi > Kodai!Kenobi > Zonama Sekot!Kenobi > First Mission Anakin!Kenobi > Jedi Temple!Kenobi > Naboo Kenobi > Jinn < Maul who Kenobi was able to cut in half >>>>>>>> young exhausted Maul who was able to give Lord Sidious a good fight > Tenebrous >>> Tenebrous' Master > Galaxy Light Side Bubble


The Maul in this fight scales wildly above a galactic level shift in the entire force... and that's only using one Kenobi scale.

This is naturally ignoring Savage Opress who scales somewhere near the last Florrum!Kenobi. So we have two people who scale wildly above galaxy bubble level against a guy who scales above Solar System levels? lol
I also believe I may have missed some planets that Kenobi fought on too, so this is the absolute minimum of Kenobi's growth!

Brothers stomps. Spite.
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Three
Level Three

Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 Empty Re: Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress

on Wed 3 Jul - 23:31
Lmao.

PeraltaEagle45
PeraltaEagle45

Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 Empty Re: Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress

on Thu 4 Jul - 0:15
10/10
DC77 (Reborn)
DC77 (Reborn)
Level Five
Level Five

Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 Empty Re: Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress

on Thu 4 Jul - 0:59
I've rarely seen such quality debating. Gonna have to switch my vote to the brothers.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level One
Level One

Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 Empty Re: Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress

on Thu 4 Jul - 8:11
@Quorian Debatist wrote:
@LadyKulvax wrote:This is the kind of utterly insane scaling Outlander gets, which is why there's no way on earth that the team wins:

(Valkorion >> Spirit!Valkorion >> Outlander, Arcann & Spirit!Vaylin >>) The Outlander > Vaylin >> Chained!Vaylin ~ Arcann > (Weakened)Spirit!Valkorion >>> Spirit!Vitiate ~ Ziost > YavinIV!Vitiate > Dark Revan >> Hero of Tython, Lord Scourge, Darth Marr, Satele Shan, Lana Beniko & the Protagonist Strike Team >> Protagonist Strike Team (aid of mental protection) > Dread Masters ~ multi-system power projection; TK dominating DreadWar!Hero of Tython; destroying fleets >> Emperor Malgus ~ Coalition Strike Team >>

1.ActIII Barsen'thor > First Son > > Children of the Emperor >/~ Act II Barsen'thor >> EoActIBarsen'thor > Lord Vivicar ~ 100s of Jedi Masters >> Terrak Morrhage ~ system-wide dark side nexus.

2.ActIIIDarth Nox >> Darth Thanaton >>> Teneb Kel ~\< Exal Kressh >> Children of the Emperor > ActIIBarsen'thor >> EoActIBarsen'thor > Lord Vivicar ~ Draining 100s of Jedi Masters >> Terrak Morrhage ~ system-wide dark side nexus.

3.ActIII Wrath > Sel-Makor >> 'False Voice' Baras > Darth Ekkage > Darth Vengean > Master Wyellett > Xerender > Tol Braga > Warren Sedoru > Ven Zallow ~ Darth Malgus > Aryn Leneer > Hope!Malgus > Knight Satele Shan > Lord Malgus ~ Kao Cen Darach > ToC!Darth Baras > Pre-Sel Makor amp!Baras > Lord Fulminiss ~ breaking the minds of four elite Sith Lords, strong enough to be hand-selected by the Emperor for his death cult.

4.Act III Slayer > (Weakened) Vitiate > Spirit!Vitiate ~ Dark Temple destruction > Tol Braga, Warren Sedoru, Leeha Narezz, Act II Slayer > Act II Slayer ~ Lord Scourge > Tol Braga > Warren Sedoru > Leeha Narezz ~ all three are the most powerful Jedi and best warriors, in the Jedi Order.

The Outlander stomps.

Kenobi was experiencing near daily growth and was growing the entire time during the war, so, with that in mind we know he was growing more powerful every battle. Especially since he was still in his prime at this point in time.

This Maul ~ Utapau!Kenobi > InvisibleHand!Kenobi > Cato Neimoidia!Kenobi > Boz Pity!Kenobi > Coruscant!Kenobi > Rendili!Kenobi > Titavian!Kenobi > Vjun!Kenobi > Onderon!Kenobi > Mandolore!Kenobi > Coruscant!Kenobi > Florrum!Kenobi > Turtle Tanker!Kenobi > Raydonia!Kenobi > Florrum!Kenobi > Negotiator!Kenobi > Theed!Kenobi > The BOX!Kenobi > Rako Hardeen Kenobi > Kadavo!Kenobi > Zygerria!Kenobi > Kiros!Kenobi > Umbara!Kenobi >  Starcrusher!Kenobi > Lola Sayu!Kenobi > Mortis!Kenobi > Toydaria!Kenobi > Sullust!Kenobi > Death Canyon!Kenobi > Teth!Kenobi > Nal Hutta!Kenobi >  Coruscant!Kenobi > Coronet!Kenobi > Concordia!Kenobi > Mandolore!Kenobi > Kamino!Kenobi > Saleucami!Kenobi > Geonosis!Kenobi > Valahari!Kenobi > Zillo Beast Kenobi > Malastare!Kenobi > Felucia!Kenobi >  Rogue Antar system!Kenobi > Jedi Temple!Kenobi > Rodia!Kenobi > Jedi Temple!Kenobi > Felucia!Kenobi > Lessu!Kenobi > Nabat!Kenobi > Iego!Kenobi > Blue Shadow Virus!Kenobi > Orto Plutonia!Kenobi >  Florrum!Kenobi > Vanqor!Kenobi > Bothawui!Kenobi > Zigoola!Kenobi > Devestation!Kenobi > 3 Planet!Kenobi > Malevolence!Kenobi > Gwori!Kenobi > Teth!Kenobi > Tatooine!Kenobi > Christophsis!Kenobi > Azure!Kenobi > Genian!Kenobi >  Merson asteroid belt!Kenobi > Riflor!Kenobi > Rattatak!Kenobi > Jabiim!Kenobi > Ord Cestus!Kenobi > Skye!Kenobi > Battle of Hypori!Kenobi > Battle of Muunilinst!Kenobi > Queyta!Kenobi > Ohma-D'un!Kenobi > Dark Reaper(4planets)!Kenobi > Kamino!Kenobi > Geonosis1stbattle!Kenobi > Kamino!Kenobi > Coruscant!Kenobi > Ansion!Kenobi > Random Planet!Kenobi > Korriban!Kenobi > Falleen!Kenobi > Romin!Kenobi > Typha-Dor!Kenobi > Vanqor!Kenobi > Mawan!Kenobi > Andara!Kenobi > Ragoon VI!Kenobi > Barlok!Kenobi > Radnor!Kenobi > Nar Shaddaa!Kenobi > Kodai!Kenobi > Zonama Sekot!Kenobi > First Mission Anakin!Kenobi > Jedi Temple!Kenobi > Naboo Kenobi > Jinn < Maul who Kenobi was able to cut in half >>>>>>>> young exhausted Maul who was able to give Lord Sidious a good fight > Tenebrous >>> Tenebrous' Master > Galaxy Light Side Bubble


The Maul in this fight scales wildly above a galactic level shift in the entire force... and that's only using one Kenobi scale.

This is naturally ignoring Savage Opress who scales somewhere near the last Florrum!Kenobi. So we have two people who scale wildly above galaxy bubble level against a guy who scales above Solar System levels? lol
I also believe I may have missed some planets that Kenobi fought on too, so this is the absolute minimum of Kenobi's growth!

Brothers stomps. Spite.

Not only did Maul never give Sheev a 'good fight', as Skillz enumerated upon when he dissected ILS' Maul wank.

But worse, there's no real reason to think that said Sheev incarnation scales that far above Tenebrous' Master. Espeially given that Plagueis needed a paradigm shift in the balance to operate anywhere near Tenebrous' level. This is something that's irrefutable as Tenebrous could do with ease what a pre-imbalance Plagueis considered impossible to achieve. So not only is it massive conjecture that said galaxy wide nexus popping ever happened in the first place given that the sources for it are IU. But to claim that that Sheev incarnation scales so immensely beyond it is utterly unsupported in the text.

Yeah, you probably shouldn't have bothered.
Gideon/Tempest
Gideon/Tempest

Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 Empty Re: Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress

on Thu 4 Jul - 12:59
@Quorian Debatist wrote:

Kenobi was experiencing near daily growth and was growing the entire time during the war, so, with that in mind we know he was growing more powerful every battle. Especially since he was still in his prime at this point in time.

This Maul ~ Utapau!Kenobi > InvisibleHand!Kenobi > Cato Neimoidia!Kenobi > Boz Pity!Kenobi > Coruscant!Kenobi > Rendili!Kenobi > Titavian!Kenobi > Vjun!Kenobi > Onderon!Kenobi > Mandolore!Kenobi > Coruscant!Kenobi > Florrum!Kenobi > Turtle Tanker!Kenobi > Raydonia!Kenobi > Florrum!Kenobi > Negotiator!Kenobi > Theed!Kenobi > The BOX!Kenobi > Rako Hardeen Kenobi > Kadavo!Kenobi > Zygerria!Kenobi > Kiros!Kenobi > Umbara!Kenobi >  Starcrusher!Kenobi > Lola Sayu!Kenobi > Mortis!Kenobi > Toydaria!Kenobi > Sullust!Kenobi > Death Canyon!Kenobi > Teth!Kenobi > Nal Hutta!Kenobi >  Coruscant!Kenobi > Coronet!Kenobi > Concordia!Kenobi > Mandolore!Kenobi > Kamino!Kenobi > Saleucami!Kenobi > Geonosis!Kenobi > Valahari!Kenobi > Zillo Beast Kenobi > Malastare!Kenobi > Felucia!Kenobi >  Rogue Antar system!Kenobi > Jedi Temple!Kenobi > Rodia!Kenobi > Jedi Temple!Kenobi > Felucia!Kenobi > Lessu!Kenobi > Nabat!Kenobi > Iego!Kenobi > Blue Shadow Virus!Kenobi > Orto Plutonia!Kenobi >  Florrum!Kenobi > Vanqor!Kenobi > Bothawui!Kenobi > Zigoola!Kenobi > Devestation!Kenobi > 3 Planet!Kenobi > Malevolence!Kenobi > Gwori!Kenobi > Teth!Kenobi > Tatooine!Kenobi > Christophsis!Kenobi > Azure!Kenobi > Genian!Kenobi >  Merson asteroid belt!Kenobi > Riflor!Kenobi > Rattatak!Kenobi > Jabiim!Kenobi > Ord Cestus!Kenobi > Skye!Kenobi > Battle of Hypori!Kenobi > Battle of Muunilinst!Kenobi > Queyta!Kenobi > Ohma-D'un!Kenobi > Dark Reaper(4planets)!Kenobi > Kamino!Kenobi > Geonosis1stbattle!Kenobi > Kamino!Kenobi > Coruscant!Kenobi > Ansion!Kenobi > Random Planet!Kenobi > Korriban!Kenobi > Falleen!Kenobi > Romin!Kenobi > Typha-Dor!Kenobi > Vanqor!Kenobi > Mawan!Kenobi > Andara!Kenobi > Ragoon VI!Kenobi > Barlok!Kenobi > Radnor!Kenobi > Nar Shaddaa!Kenobi > Kodai!Kenobi > Zonama Sekot!Kenobi > First Mission Anakin!Kenobi > Jedi Temple!Kenobi > Naboo Kenobi > Jinn < Maul who Kenobi was able to cut in half >>>>>>>> young exhausted Maul who was able to give Lord Sidious a good fight > Tenebrous >>> Tenebrous' Master > Galaxy Light Side Bubble


The Maul in this fight scales wildly above a galactic level shift in the entire force... and that's only using one Kenobi scale.

This is naturally ignoring Savage Opress who scales somewhere near the last Florrum!Kenobi. So we have two people who scale wildly above galaxy bubble level against a guy who scales above Solar System levels? lol
I also believe I may have missed some planets that Kenobi fought on too, so this is the absolute minimum of Kenobi's growth!

Brothers stomps. Spite.

This is hilarious. Well done.
Azronger
Azronger
Moderator
Moderator

Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 Empty Re: Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress

on Thu 4 Jul - 13:06
@Gideon/Tempest wrote:
@Quorian Debatist wrote:

Kenobi was experiencing near daily growth and was growing the entire time during the war, so, with that in mind we know he was growing more powerful every battle. Especially since he was still in his prime at this point in time.

This Maul ~ Utapau!Kenobi > InvisibleHand!Kenobi > Cato Neimoidia!Kenobi > Boz Pity!Kenobi > Coruscant!Kenobi > Rendili!Kenobi > Titavian!Kenobi > Vjun!Kenobi > Onderon!Kenobi > Mandolore!Kenobi > Coruscant!Kenobi > Florrum!Kenobi > Turtle Tanker!Kenobi > Raydonia!Kenobi > Florrum!Kenobi > Negotiator!Kenobi > Theed!Kenobi > The BOX!Kenobi > Rako Hardeen Kenobi > Kadavo!Kenobi > Zygerria!Kenobi > Kiros!Kenobi > Umbara!Kenobi >  Starcrusher!Kenobi > Lola Sayu!Kenobi > Mortis!Kenobi > Toydaria!Kenobi > Sullust!Kenobi > Death Canyon!Kenobi > Teth!Kenobi > Nal Hutta!Kenobi >  Coruscant!Kenobi > Coronet!Kenobi > Concordia!Kenobi > Mandolore!Kenobi > Kamino!Kenobi > Saleucami!Kenobi > Geonosis!Kenobi > Valahari!Kenobi > Zillo Beast Kenobi > Malastare!Kenobi > Felucia!Kenobi >  Rogue Antar system!Kenobi > Jedi Temple!Kenobi > Rodia!Kenobi > Jedi Temple!Kenobi > Felucia!Kenobi > Lessu!Kenobi > Nabat!Kenobi > Iego!Kenobi > Blue Shadow Virus!Kenobi > Orto Plutonia!Kenobi >  Florrum!Kenobi > Vanqor!Kenobi > Bothawui!Kenobi > Zigoola!Kenobi > Devestation!Kenobi > 3 Planet!Kenobi > Malevolence!Kenobi > Gwori!Kenobi > Teth!Kenobi > Tatooine!Kenobi > Christophsis!Kenobi > Azure!Kenobi > Genian!Kenobi >  Merson asteroid belt!Kenobi > Riflor!Kenobi > Rattatak!Kenobi > Jabiim!Kenobi > Ord Cestus!Kenobi > Skye!Kenobi > Battle of Hypori!Kenobi > Battle of Muunilinst!Kenobi > Queyta!Kenobi > Ohma-D'un!Kenobi > Dark Reaper(4planets)!Kenobi > Kamino!Kenobi > Geonosis1stbattle!Kenobi > Kamino!Kenobi > Coruscant!Kenobi > Ansion!Kenobi > Random Planet!Kenobi > Korriban!Kenobi > Falleen!Kenobi > Romin!Kenobi > Typha-Dor!Kenobi > Vanqor!Kenobi > Mawan!Kenobi > Andara!Kenobi > Ragoon VI!Kenobi > Barlok!Kenobi > Radnor!Kenobi > Nar Shaddaa!Kenobi > Kodai!Kenobi > Zonama Sekot!Kenobi > First Mission Anakin!Kenobi > Jedi Temple!Kenobi > Naboo Kenobi > Jinn < Maul who Kenobi was able to cut in half >>>>>>>> young exhausted Maul who was able to give Lord Sidious a good fight > Tenebrous >>> Tenebrous' Master > Galaxy Light Side Bubble


The Maul in this fight scales wildly above a galactic level shift in the entire force... and that's only using one Kenobi scale.

This is naturally ignoring Savage Opress who scales somewhere near the last Florrum!Kenobi. So we have two people who scale wildly above galaxy bubble level against a guy who scales above Solar System levels? lol
I also believe I may have missed some planets that Kenobi fought on too, so this is the absolute minimum of Kenobi's growth!

Brothers stomps. Spite.

This is hilarious. Well done.

I see you online, @Gideon/Tempest

How are you, good sir?
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level One
Level One

Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 Empty Re: Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress

on Thu 4 Jul - 13:11
There was a 9785616257283583% chance you were going to reply to him.
Gideon/Tempest
Gideon/Tempest

Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 Empty Re: Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress

on Thu 4 Jul - 16:42
@Azronger wrote:
@Gideon/Tempest wrote:
@Quorian Debatist wrote:

Kenobi was experiencing near daily growth and was growing the entire time during the war, so, with that in mind we know he was growing more powerful every battle. Especially since he was still in his prime at this point in time.

This Maul ~ Utapau!Kenobi > InvisibleHand!Kenobi > Cato Neimoidia!Kenobi > Boz Pity!Kenobi > Coruscant!Kenobi > Rendili!Kenobi > Titavian!Kenobi > Vjun!Kenobi > Onderon!Kenobi > Mandolore!Kenobi > Coruscant!Kenobi > Florrum!Kenobi > Turtle Tanker!Kenobi > Raydonia!Kenobi > Florrum!Kenobi > Negotiator!Kenobi > Theed!Kenobi > The BOX!Kenobi > Rako Hardeen Kenobi > Kadavo!Kenobi > Zygerria!Kenobi > Kiros!Kenobi > Umbara!Kenobi >  Starcrusher!Kenobi > Lola Sayu!Kenobi > Mortis!Kenobi > Toydaria!Kenobi > Sullust!Kenobi > Death Canyon!Kenobi > Teth!Kenobi > Nal Hutta!Kenobi >  Coruscant!Kenobi > Coronet!Kenobi > Concordia!Kenobi > Mandolore!Kenobi > Kamino!Kenobi > Saleucami!Kenobi > Geonosis!Kenobi > Valahari!Kenobi > Zillo Beast Kenobi > Malastare!Kenobi > Felucia!Kenobi >  Rogue Antar system!Kenobi > Jedi Temple!Kenobi > Rodia!Kenobi > Jedi Temple!Kenobi > Felucia!Kenobi > Lessu!Kenobi > Nabat!Kenobi > Iego!Kenobi > Blue Shadow Virus!Kenobi > Orto Plutonia!Kenobi >  Florrum!Kenobi > Vanqor!Kenobi > Bothawui!Kenobi > Zigoola!Kenobi > Devestation!Kenobi > 3 Planet!Kenobi > Malevolence!Kenobi > Gwori!Kenobi > Teth!Kenobi > Tatooine!Kenobi > Christophsis!Kenobi > Azure!Kenobi > Genian!Kenobi >  Merson asteroid belt!Kenobi > Riflor!Kenobi > Rattatak!Kenobi > Jabiim!Kenobi > Ord Cestus!Kenobi > Skye!Kenobi > Battle of Hypori!Kenobi > Battle of Muunilinst!Kenobi > Queyta!Kenobi > Ohma-D'un!Kenobi > Dark Reaper(4planets)!Kenobi > Kamino!Kenobi > Geonosis1stbattle!Kenobi > Kamino!Kenobi > Coruscant!Kenobi > Ansion!Kenobi > Random Planet!Kenobi > Korriban!Kenobi > Falleen!Kenobi > Romin!Kenobi > Typha-Dor!Kenobi > Vanqor!Kenobi > Mawan!Kenobi > Andara!Kenobi > Ragoon VI!Kenobi > Barlok!Kenobi > Radnor!Kenobi > Nar Shaddaa!Kenobi > Kodai!Kenobi > Zonama Sekot!Kenobi > First Mission Anakin!Kenobi > Jedi Temple!Kenobi > Naboo Kenobi > Jinn < Maul who Kenobi was able to cut in half >>>>>>>> young exhausted Maul who was able to give Lord Sidious a good fight > Tenebrous >>> Tenebrous' Master > Galaxy Light Side Bubble


The Maul in this fight scales wildly above a galactic level shift in the entire force... and that's only using one Kenobi scale.

This is naturally ignoring Savage Opress who scales somewhere near the last Florrum!Kenobi. So we have two people who scale wildly above galaxy bubble level against a guy who scales above Solar System levels? lol
I also believe I may have missed some planets that Kenobi fought on too, so this is the absolute minimum of Kenobi's growth!

Brothers stomps. Spite.

This is hilarious. Well done.

I see you online, @Gideon/Tempest

How are you, good sir?

Herro. I'm doing well; yourself?
Azronger
Azronger
Moderator
Moderator

Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 Empty Re: Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress

on Thu 4 Jul - 19:37
@Gideon/Tempest wrote:
@Azronger wrote:
@Gideon/Tempest wrote:
@Quorian Debatist wrote:

Kenobi was experiencing near daily growth and was growing the entire time during the war, so, with that in mind we know he was growing more powerful every battle. Especially since he was still in his prime at this point in time.

This Maul ~ Utapau!Kenobi > InvisibleHand!Kenobi > Cato Neimoidia!Kenobi > Boz Pity!Kenobi > Coruscant!Kenobi > Rendili!Kenobi > Titavian!Kenobi > Vjun!Kenobi > Onderon!Kenobi > Mandolore!Kenobi > Coruscant!Kenobi > Florrum!Kenobi > Turtle Tanker!Kenobi > Raydonia!Kenobi > Florrum!Kenobi > Negotiator!Kenobi > Theed!Kenobi > The BOX!Kenobi > Rako Hardeen Kenobi > Kadavo!Kenobi > Zygerria!Kenobi > Kiros!Kenobi > Umbara!Kenobi >  Starcrusher!Kenobi > Lola Sayu!Kenobi > Mortis!Kenobi > Toydaria!Kenobi > Sullust!Kenobi > Death Canyon!Kenobi > Teth!Kenobi > Nal Hutta!Kenobi >  Coruscant!Kenobi > Coronet!Kenobi > Concordia!Kenobi > Mandolore!Kenobi > Kamino!Kenobi > Saleucami!Kenobi > Geonosis!Kenobi > Valahari!Kenobi > Zillo Beast Kenobi > Malastare!Kenobi > Felucia!Kenobi >  Rogue Antar system!Kenobi > Jedi Temple!Kenobi > Rodia!Kenobi > Jedi Temple!Kenobi > Felucia!Kenobi > Lessu!Kenobi > Nabat!Kenobi > Iego!Kenobi > Blue Shadow Virus!Kenobi > Orto Plutonia!Kenobi >  Florrum!Kenobi > Vanqor!Kenobi > Bothawui!Kenobi > Zigoola!Kenobi > Devestation!Kenobi > 3 Planet!Kenobi > Malevolence!Kenobi > Gwori!Kenobi > Teth!Kenobi > Tatooine!Kenobi > Christophsis!Kenobi > Azure!Kenobi > Genian!Kenobi >  Merson asteroid belt!Kenobi > Riflor!Kenobi > Rattatak!Kenobi > Jabiim!Kenobi > Ord Cestus!Kenobi > Skye!Kenobi > Battle of Hypori!Kenobi > Battle of Muunilinst!Kenobi > Queyta!Kenobi > Ohma-D'un!Kenobi > Dark Reaper(4planets)!Kenobi > Kamino!Kenobi > Geonosis1stbattle!Kenobi > Kamino!Kenobi > Coruscant!Kenobi > Ansion!Kenobi > Random Planet!Kenobi > Korriban!Kenobi > Falleen!Kenobi > Romin!Kenobi > Typha-Dor!Kenobi > Vanqor!Kenobi > Mawan!Kenobi > Andara!Kenobi > Ragoon VI!Kenobi > Barlok!Kenobi > Radnor!Kenobi > Nar Shaddaa!Kenobi > Kodai!Kenobi > Zonama Sekot!Kenobi > First Mission Anakin!Kenobi > Jedi Temple!Kenobi > Naboo Kenobi > Jinn < Maul who Kenobi was able to cut in half >>>>>>>> young exhausted Maul who was able to give Lord Sidious a good fight > Tenebrous >>> Tenebrous' Master > Galaxy Light Side Bubble


The Maul in this fight scales wildly above a galactic level shift in the entire force... and that's only using one Kenobi scale.

This is naturally ignoring Savage Opress who scales somewhere near the last Florrum!Kenobi. So we have two people who scale wildly above galaxy bubble level against a guy who scales above Solar System levels? lol
I also believe I may have missed some planets that Kenobi fought on too, so this is the absolute minimum of Kenobi's growth!

Brothers stomps. Spite.

This is hilarious. Well done.

I see you online, @Gideon/Tempest

How are you, good sir?

Herro. I'm doing well; yourself?

Splendid, if I may so say myself; thank you for asking. Thoroughly enjoying AP being sodomized by the glorious new Kenobi scaling.
avatar
Quorian Debatist

Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 Empty Re: Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress

on Thu 4 Jul - 23:36
All below quotes come from Darth Plagueis unless otherwise stated.


Not only did Maul never give Sheev a 'good fight', as Skillz enumerated upon when he dissected ILS' Maul wank.

You seem to be under the impression that someone saying something you agree with renders all discussion about that topic null and void. Explain the correlation, because I am not saying the same things ILS was. Skillz arguing ILS' exact words - Maul almost killed Sidious - do not delete Maul's accomplishments in that fight. I said 'good fight' and failing to properly convey his arguments against mine do not delete that sentiment.

Moreover, even if true, all this does is allow us to skip over the Factual Kenobi scaling, and simply go by the iteration seen in this thread. Where both Brothers fought Sheev - who inarguably was beyond Tenebrous, and therefore his master - and allow us to arrive at the same conclusion; albeit without some 80 odd Kenobis to scale from.

But then we'd have to count the exact days from at least TPM to his fight against the Maul brothers, because Sheev experienced daily power growth. This would be at least 4320 greater-than-symbols in terms of impressiveness from a being definitely greater than Tenebrous/Master - which completely eclipses the Kenobi chain in terms of power. The Sheev that fought Maul scales from 4320 Sheevs. Tenebrous' master cannot compare in any way to these Sheevian Units of power.

Though he could not consistently determine the significance of the structures he perceived—the darkening cloud upon the Force that had risen with the rebirth of the Sith made that harder and harder with each passing day—the presence of shatterpoints was always clear.

- ROTS Novel

*Credit to Goat for the quote

As an aside, I'm not convinced ILS and Skillz are even different people in the first place. You cannot spell Skillz without ILS, and they argue very similarly. From where I'm standing, it just seems like one person setting up arguments to simply knock them down. A very masturbatory display, wouldn't you say?



And if you prescribe to having others make their arguments for you, I present to you Lotl blogs. Blogs mind you, that has a lot more carry over to my arguments than yours. Simply line up every Kenobi feat to the corresponding Kenobi in the scaling chain and you can see how impressive Maul becomes.
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/lordofthelight/blog/obi-wan-kenobis-true-power-jedi-initiate/133955/
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/lordofthelight/blog/an-analysis-of-the-true-extent-of-obi-wan-kenobis-/128897/



But worse, there's no real reason to think that said Sheev incarnation scales that far above Tenebrous' Master.

Pure semantics. He doesn't need to scale that far above his master. He only needs to scale above him for the chain to be true. Your obsession with the precise amount of >>>>s causes you to miss the forest for the trees.



Espeially given that Plagueis needed a paradigm shift in the balance to operate anywhere near Tenebrous' level. This is something that's irrefutable as Tenebrous could do with ease what a pre-imbalance Plagueis considered impossible to achieve.


Well, Plagueis was definitely above Tenebrous as of 33 BBY:

Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn't master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.


Tenebrous 100 years before his own death had already grown beyond his master. Plagueis was considered way more powerful than Tenebrous thought at the time of his death:
Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 1o1zqe10

- The Tenebrous Way


So essentially, Tenebrous had an entire century to grow further above an inferior being. And Plagueis had 24 years to grow further from an incarnation Tenebrous deemed "powerful" when he only showed disdain for his prior master's level.

Then in 43 BBY, Sidious and Plagueis did something Tenebrous and his master could not do. Which is shift the balance of the force willingly. Yes, he [TenMas] rent a hole in the force which allowed them to do this, but he did not go further and make the force submit; they did. Plagueis then experiences large growths AFTER this:

Spoiler:

The question of whether he and Sidious had discovered something new or rediscovered something ancient was beside the point. All that mattered was that, almost a decade earlier, they had succeeded in willing the Force to shift and tip irrevocably to the dark side. Not a mere paradigm shift, but a tangible alteration that could be felt by anyone strong in the Force, and whether or not trained in the Sith or Jedi arts.

The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force's proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended.

On the same day they had allowed Venamis to die.

Then, by manipulating the Bith's midi-chlorians, which should have been inert and unresponsive, Plagueis had resurrected him. The enormity of the event had stunned Sidious into silence and overwhelmed and addled 11-4D's processors, but Plagueis had carried on without assistance, again and again allowing Venamis to die and be returned to life, until the Bith's organs had given out and Plagueis had finally granted him everlasting death.

But having gained the power to keep another alive hadn't been enough for him. And so after Sidious had returned to Coruscant, he had devoted himself to internalizing that ability, by manipulating the midi-chlorians that animated him. For several months he made no progress, but ultimately he began to perceive a measured change. The scars that had grown over his wounds had abruptly begun to soften and fade, and he had begun to breathe more freely than he had in twenty years. He began to sense that not only were his damaged tissues healing, but his entire body was rejuvinating itself. Beneath the transpirator, areas of his skin were smooth and youthful, and he knew that eventually he would cease to age altogether.

Drunk on newfound power, then, he had attempted an even more unthinkable act: to bring into being a creation of his own. Not merely the impregnation of some hapless, mindless creature, but the birth of a Forceful being. The ability to dominate death had been a step in the right direction, but it wasn't equivalent to pure creation. And so he had stretched out-indeed, as if invisible, transubstantiated-to inform every being of his existence, and impact all of them: Muunoid or insectoid, secure or dispossessed, free or enslaved. A warrior waving a banner in triumph on a battlefield. A ghost infiltrating a dream.

But ultimately to no end.

The Force grew silent, as if in flight from him, and many of the animals in his laboratory succumbed to horrifying diseases.

Regardless, eight long years later, Plagueis remained convinced that he was on the verge of absolute success. The evidence was in his own increased midi-chlorian count; and in the power he sensed in Sidious when he had finally returned to Sojourn. The dark side of the Force was theirs to command, and in partnership they would someday be able to keep each other alive, and to rule the galaxy for as long as they saw fit.

But he had yet to inform Sidious of this.

It was more important that Sidious remain as focused on manipulating events in the profane world as Plagueis was intent on dominating the realm of the Force, of which the mundane was only a gross and distorted reflection.

To be sure, the light had been extinguished, but for how long and at what cost?

He recalled a stellar eclipse he had witnessed on a long-forgotten world, whose single moon was of perfect size and distance to blot out the light of the system's primary. The result hadn't been total darkness but illumination of a different sort, singular and diffuse, that had confused the birds and had permitted the stars to be seen in what would have been broad daylight. Even totally blocked, the primary had shone from behind the satellite's disk, and when the moon moved on there had been a moment of light almost too intense to bear.

Gazing into Sojourn's darkening sky, he wondered what calamity the Force was planning in retreat to visit upon him or Sidious or both of them for willfully tipping the balance. Was retribution merely waiting in the wings as it had been on Coruscant twenty years earlier? It was a dangerous time; more dangerous than his earliest years as an apprentice when the dark side might have consumed him at any moment.

For now, at least, his full convalescence was near complete. Sidious was continuing to become more powerful as a Sith and as a politician, his most intricate schemes meeting with little or no resistance. And the Jedi Order was foundering...



Sidious had kept up with Plagueis to a degree, so it's very likely he was above or close to Tenebrous as of 37 BBY when he fought Maul. If you don't buy him being above Tenebrous, then simply take him out of the equation. There is reason to assume both are well beyond Tenebrous at this age, but there is no reason to assume both are below a guy who's below Tenebrous prior to 100 years of growth.

To depict it in a manner you're familiar with:

37BBY!Plagueis > 37BBY!Sheev > 67BBY!Tenebrous >>> 167BBY!Tenebrous > 167BBY!Tenebrous'sMaster





So not only is it massive conjecture that said galaxy wide nexus popping ever happened in the first place given that the sources for it are IU. But to claim that that Sheev incarnation scales so immensely beyond it is utterly unsupported in the text.

Yeah, you probably shouldn't have bothered.


Being IU does not allow you the ability to handwave it away. You have to present conflicting evidence to the contrary, not just state it's IU. This isn't a case of subjective power placements, this was a case of an event attempting to be explained. The hole being rent happened according to the author:


The task before him was at once invigorating and daunting, and in the eye of that cycloning storm he could hear the faraway voices of all those who had laid the goundwork of the Sith imperative-the Grand Plan; those who had enlivened the hurricane with their breath and lives: Darths Bane and Zannah, and on down through the generations that had included Cognus, Vectivus, Ramage, and Tenebrous. One hundred years earlier, Tenebrous's Twi'lek Master had opened a small rend in the fabric of the Force, allowing the dark side to be felt by the Jedi Order for the first time in more than eight hundred years. That had been the inauguration, the commencement of the revenge of the Sith. And now the time had come to enlarge that rend into a gaping hole, a gaping wound, into which the Republic and the Jedi Order would to their own hazard be drawn.

...

The rend that Tenebrous's Twi'lek Master had opened in the fabric of the Force had been felt by the Jedi, and already the Order was beginning to show signs of circumspection and languor.



The subjectivity arrives in Plagueis likening it to a literal force bubble:


The Force bubble itself was similar to those generated by creatures that drew on the Force to avoid predation by natural enemies. The relationship between the arboreal ysalamir and its adversary, the vornskr, provided a curious example, in that the latter was attracted to the former by the very mechanism the ysalamir employed as a defense. Where an extremely low midi-chlorian count might have bolstered the odds of survival, nature had instead made the ysalimir species strong in the Force. So strong, in fact, that several of the creatures acting in concert could create a Force bubble encompassing kilometers rather than meters. In a sense, the Jedi Order had done the same on a galactic scale, Plagueis believed, by bathing the galaxy in the energy of the light side of the Force; or more accurately by fashioning a Force bubble that had prevented infiltration by the dark side, until Tenebrous's Master had succeeded in bursting the bubble, or at least shrinking it. How the Order's actions could be thought of as balancing the Force had baffled generations of Sith, who harbored no delusions regarding the Force's ability to self-regulate.



It's giving the only explanations of how Tenebrous' master achieved the feat, not giving question as to whether or not it happened. Interesting to note that not all of that seems to be Plagueis' thoughts either. I'm not sure why we would ever question it, however? Why would the Jedi's overwhelming presence not create a vast shift to the lightside when the Sith have largely operated in complete secret, building their own power in sets of 2? Unless you want to argue that the Banites [2 at a time] throughout history were powerful enough to keep in lockstep with thousands of thousands of Jedi in terms of their impact on the force?

This in combination with the above passage where Sheev and Plagueis literally combat the force and willfully change its direction. Is that all IU too? There are at least 3 instances where they state the force is so shifted into the lightside, that feeling the darkside is a huge deal. Then we have a detailed instance of 2 people changing the force.
"In Universe" get out of here with that grasp.


An interesting thing to note here, however, is besides theories scrambled together haphazardly by random sources, the book takes into consideration that they would actually be facing the Celestials themselves. So not only do we have the feat itself, but we have the book theorizing that the Celestials would be overthrown in such a feat, and that Vitiate himself - therefore Baras/Vivicar - could only come halfway through surviving off others... not even overthrowing the force.

"But Ashla is a perversion," he went on, "for the dark has always preceded the light. The original idea was to capture the power of the Force and make it subservient to the will of sentient life. The ancients-the Celestials, the Rakata-didn't pronounce judgment on their works. They moved planets, organized star systems, conjured dark side devices like the Star Forge as they saw fit. If millions died in the process, so be it. The lives of most beings are of small consequence. The Jedi have failed to understand this. They are so busy saving lives and striving to keep the powers of the Force in balance that they have lost sight of the fact that sentient life is meant to evolve, not simply languish in contented stasis."

---

For while toppling the Jedi Order and the Republic was essential to the task of restoring order to the galaxy, that goal belonged to the realm of the ordinary-to the world that was nothing more than a byproduct of the eternal struggle between the light and dark forces, both of which were beyond any concepts of good or evil. The greater goal of the Sith involved toppling the Force itself, and becoming the embodiment of the galaxy's animating principle.

It had been theorized by Jedi and Sith alike that balance between the light and dark sides was actually under the guidance of a group of discorporate entities-the ones called the Celestials, perhaps-who had merged themselves with the Force thousands of generations earlier, and had continued to guide the fate of the galaxy ever since. In effect, a higher order of intermediaries, whose powers were beyond the understanding of mortal beings. But many Sith viewed the notion with disdain, for the theoretical existence of such a group had little bearing on the goal of making the Force subservient to the will of an enlightened elite. Only the Sith understood that sentient life was on the verge of a transformative leap; that through the manipulation of midi-chlorians-or the overthrow of the Forceful group that supervised them-the divide between organic life and the Force could be bridged, and death could be erased from the continuum.

As evidenced by those few Lords who had managed to perpetuate their spirits after physical death-foremost among them Emperor Vitiate, who was said to have lived a thousand years-the ancient Sith had come halfway across that bridge. But those few had been so focused on worldly power that they had ended up trapping themselves between realms. That they had never provided the Order with guidance from beyond attested to the fact that their influence had been negligible, and had long since faded from the world.

So, that's another part of the feat. Did Sidious and Plagueis overcome the will of the Celestials?

Yes.





Basically, Maul scales directly above a guy who can punch a hole in a galaxy nexus so pervaded in light that they haven't felt the darkness in 800 years. Maul then fought a guy who helped willingly flood the galaxy in darkness. That guy then got massive powerups and Maul - from this thread - was able to give him an even better fight.

So we have the Kenobi Chain, and we have the Sheevian Chain. Any more chains you'd like to bring to my attention? They all end in galaxy levels of power I'm afraid. Made even worse when the book itself points to the Celestials being involved.



Just to show exactly what the Sheevian scale looks like, I present it to you in full context. Every arrow represents a day for Sheev. Every arrow represents a year for Tenebrous under an assumption of slow growth.

Spoiler:

Sheev that fought Maul and Savage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
EndOfPhantomMenace!Sheev > EndOfPhantomMenace!Plagueis >>> 33BBY!Plagueis > 67BBY!Tenebrous >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 167BBY!Tenebrous > Tenebrous' Master who can combat and damage a galaxy sized nexus


Maul fought a guy that is at least 4400 greater-than symbols more powerful than a guy who can damage a galaxy-sized nexus. Brothers win. Spite.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level One
Level One

Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 Empty Re: Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress

on Fri 5 Jul - 0:13
Yeah you've still utterly failed to tell me why:

1.The Sith should be believed when we have many quotes staying that the natural balance of the Force is no dark side imbalance, at all.

2.Why I should care about daily power growth in comparison to my objective character scaling chains that massively clipse what one character will experience in general.

3.Why Maul ever actually 'almost killed' Sheev, when that claim has been debunked, utterly.

But worse than that, not only has Legends retconned the primary cause of the imbalance in the Force. (It wasn't the Sith in the first place) But one can't even objectively quantify what popping said theoretical bubble is remotely based on in the first place.

But honestly, using the Plagueis novel as a source of wank has always utterly blown my mind. As, why would you? What's hilarious is that when you actually read the thing in full, it along with the Book of Sith entry, debunks all of the claims that pro-Sheevites make. Then whatever is left over that could actually be considered as a tangibly impressive feat, that being the imbalance, gets left in the dirt the moment you watch the Mortis arc.

There are a lot of hot fire buttons that can be pressed when taking what the POV characters say at face-value, and I'm very much doing you a favor by not doing so.
avatar
Quorian Debatist

Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 Empty Re: Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress

on Fri 5 Jul - 2:39
@LadyKulvax wrote:Yeah you've still utterly failed to tell me why:

1.The Sith should be believed when we have many quotes staying that the natural balance of the Force is no dark side imbalance, at all.

Because it's not the Sith stating it. The author is OOU, and makes clear whenever it references a character's thoughts or poses a question. It plays with the reader, but it makes clear whenever something is an assumption In Universe or whether it just is.

It's not Plagueis narrating it or whatever you think is going on. Nor would the book allow you to handwave absolutely everything away had that been the case. Nothing is real, nothing happened, is Plagueis still alive? No clue.
 Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 3948126588

"The natural balance of the force is no dark side imbalance."

So... the natural balance of the force is not imbalanced towards the dark side?  
Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 39523600


Also, since you vaguely reference the Mortis arc having big details here, why would you think that the Son/darkside should have no place in the galaxy? How would that be balance? Overwhelming light with no darkness sounds like a major imbalance to me. Though I would like to see the source of your quotes on this matter.

And if you're stating it was already balanced because... blank... then that would mean 2 HIDDEN Banite Sith of any era have kept the Balance equal with thousands upon thousands of Jedi. Indirectly wanking the entire Banite Line. Which I have no problem with because Sidious scales 4320 Greater-Than signs above anyone when he faces Maul, including himself in TPM.

@LadyKulvax wrote:2.Why I should care about daily power growth in comparison to my objective character scaling chains that massively clipse what one character will experience in general.

Why should you care about daily power growth from the most powerful Sith of all time is what you're asking? Or in your opinion, the top 20 Sith of all time? Oh wait, you specifically don't count Valk as a Sith to get away from the Sidious binding quotes... so, why should we care about the most powerful Sith of all time growing more powerful every day?

Because he was able to flood The Mandalore System the galaxy with the Darkside in a joint-effort before immense growth. He somehow managed to keep up with his Master who unlocked the secrets of MM and grew in leaps and bounds. Then he got a massive power boost, and grew more powerful everyday. In a weaker state his earlier power growth was able to keep up with a guy who unlocked a literal hack in the force after he'd been a Sith for many decades, and he never stopped growing. He was never complacent, and he never hit a wall. Just because he didn't get beaten by random fodder like every character in ToR, that doesn't mean his growth doesn't count. He started off at an extremely high level and kept growing his power because he knew he had to overcome an entire Jedi Order.

Also, you state that your chain eclipses what one character will experience, but your entire chain is centered around one character experiencing growth. indirectly showing how lesser characters than Sheev can experience massive jumps in power.

Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 3948126588

@LadyKulvax wrote:3.Why Maul ever actually 'almost killed' Sheev, when that claim has been debunked, utterly.
See here's the issue with you making claims - you can't read at all.

How you can read my post and still think I'm stating this is beyond me.

From my first paragraph

You seem to be under the impression that someone saying something you agree with renders all discussion about that topic null and void. Explain the correlation, because I am not saying the same things ILS was. Skillz arguing ILS' exact words - Maul almost killed Sidious - do not delete Maul's accomplishments in that fight. I said 'good fight' and failing to properly convey his arguments against mine do not delete that sentiment.

I have not, nor have I once stated that Maul almost killed Sidious. StrawPower

@LadyKulvax wrote:But worse than that, not only has Legends retconned the primary cause of the imbalance in the Force. (It wasn't the Sith in the first place) But one can't even objectively quantify what popping said theoretical bubble is remotely based on in the first place.

What came out after the Plagueis book (2012) that retcons the imbalance? Issue/Source please? And what were Sidious/Plagueis doing then? Just tripping out on acid? Because they definitely attempted and accomplished something, so I have the book, and then I have you saying NOPE. Hmm.

Well, it's based on popping a galaxy wide nexus.  Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 3948126588

As for trying to quantify it, he was able to effect a galaxy wide nexus to a degree that the Jedi could feel his power/darkness in a galaxy wide nexus where the dark wasn't supposed to infiltrate it. In a galaxy wide nexus bathed with the power of the light, the dark found a way to seep in and make it's presence felt. IE, his power was so great it was able to be felt by the Jedi Order in a place that should have utterly drowned it out. Imagine a Jedi being so powerful the average Sith could feel it in the capital of Dromund Kaas with Vitiate on planet. Now upscale that to an entire galaxy with the Sith being in a non-specific place, and the Jedi feeling the effects from Coruscant.

But yes, question him having an impact on a galaxy wide nexus emboldened by 800 years of overwhelming Jedi presence, but then pretend that flooding Mandalorian Systems with the Darkside is a game changer. He sure had to overcome a lot of Light in those Mandalorian systems with all their non-war mongering ways. Completely quantifiable.

Also, you had no issue using this when it is purely In Universe.
https://i.servimg.com/u/f10/20/06/22/02/morrha10.png

Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 3948126588

You're also questioning popping a galaxy bubble when you were literally wanking "multi-system power projection" in your chain.

Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 1076326320

@LadyKulvax wrote:But honestly, using the Plagueis novel as a source of wank has always utterly blown my mind. As, why would you? What's hilarious is that when you actually read the thing in full, it along with the Book of Sith entry, debunks all of the claims that pro-Sheevites make. Then whatever is left over that could actually be considered as a tangibly impressive feat, that being the imbalance, gets left in the dirt the moment you watch the Mortis arc.

There are a lot of hot fire buttons that can be pressed when taking what the POV characters say at face-value, and I'm very much doing you a favor by not doing so.

Why would you continue to try and delete everything about the book because you think it's from an IU perspect, and then sit there and think the entry in Book of Sith should be brought up because it debunks all the claims?

You keep making these vague claims about how everything is debunked but you haven't posted a single thing to back up anything you say. I can't take what you say as fact because you can't read, and I can't trust you that I'm wrong because you refuse to be specific.

Oh right, of course these things were stated opposite to Darth Plagueis in blank blank #blank, and it of course debunks it because blank. Is that the way to debate now? Just say something is debunked because so many things say it? In Universe doesn't count until it does? Skillz debunked something I haven't stated? I had no idea we were pretending to be ISV in this thread, my mistake. In that case

I have a quote that debunks everything you said. GG, Mauls win.
LadyKulvax
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Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 Empty Re: Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress

on Fri 5 Jul - 4:37
In the first place, your Kenobi scaling entirely depends on a good fight having taken place between Sidious and a young Maul. This is factually incorrect:

I realize then that he [Sheev] has just begun to tap into his own reserves. Mine are played out.

Sheev wasn't even using the Force in any meaningful manner, yet Maul was spent. In what dialect of Sanskrit does that mean a 'good fight'?

The worst part comes in when you consider how strong Plagueis, and thus Sheev, actually are. Because when you actually read the book it's made clear that Tenebrous' power dwarfs Plagueis' long after he's dead:

The Tenebrous Way wrote:Amidst the billions upon billions of individual midi-chlorian deaths in Tenebrous' cells were a tiny fraction of midi-chlorians that were not dying.

That would not die so long as they inhabited a living host. These especially tenacious midi-chlorians - Tenebrous had privately labeled them with the jesting sobriquet maxi-chlorians - had been altered. Improved. It would not be an overstatement, in Tenebrous' opinion, to use the word perfected. These maxi-chlorians would indeed migrate, but not into the Force.

They would migrate into Plagueis.

To detect this infinitesimal percentage would require the precision of a Bith; it was far beyond his apprentice's limited perceptions - and indeed, Tenebrous had gone to considerable trouble to ensure it would always remain so.

Instead of actually training his doltish apprentice, Tenebrous had flattered Plagueis' mysticism while pricking his insecurities, sending him off on one useless, doomed-to-fail mission after another. In turn, Tenebrous had invested every available second of the freedom this afforded into designing, creating, and deploying the one weapon that Plagueis would never suspect.

Could never suspect. His own prejudices about the Force ensured Plagueis wouldn't believe such a thing was possible.

Tenebrous created a retrovirus that could infect midi-chlorians.

Midi-chlorians were, after all, merely symbiotic organelles that contribute to the organic processes of the living cells they inhabit. Due to their role in Force interactions, altering them was singularly challenging - they had an unsettling tendency to spontaneously express unexpected and unfortunate side effects - but by applying the full analytic prowess of his vast Bith brain and the preternatural power of his Bith senses to detect and resolve sub-microscopic structure, he eventually succeeded in creating a retrovirus that would transform normal midi-chlorians into long-lived maxi-chlorians.

Noting that to achieve the aforementioned, is entirely reliant on willpower:

Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side wrote:”The solution, therefore, is not to introduce new midi-chlorians but to impose one’s will on the midi-chlorians already present in the subject. This can be done through the energy of the pneuma. Just as a warrior in peak condition can lift a heavy weight, so can someone with a sharpened mental focus and an affinity for the Force achieve a measurable effect on living cells.

“I began with experiments on scurriers and other small creatures. I used my will, amplified through my body’s own midi-chlorians, to override the lesser concentrated midi-chlorian voices of the test subjects. This proved more challenging than I predicted. Because midi-chlorians are linked by a universal mind, the ones in my own cells seem to resist this imposition upon their fellows. But eventually I succeeded, first with small creatures, then with slaves purchased from the Hutts. I forced midi-chlorians to override their natural life cycles.”

Something Plagueis was completely inadequate at replicating:

Darth Plagueis wrote:The dispersal of midi-chlorians at the moment of physical death was, for lack of a better term, inexorable. Analogous to his fated confrontation with the Woebegone crew, the moment of death appeared to be somehow fixed in space and time. According to his Sith education, since Captain Lah and the others had been in some sense dead from the moment Plagueis’s gaze had alighted on the freighter, it followed that the midi-chlorians that resided in alleged symbiosis with them must have been preparing to be subsumed into the reservoir of life energy that was the Force long before Plagueis had stowed away. His attempts to save them—to prolong that state of symbiosis—were comparable to using a sponge to dam a raging river.

NOTE: I'm gonna destroy Plagueis' whole career before this thread is over.

As a matter of fact, when Plagueis kills Tenebrous, his powers are deemed 'pitiful' in comparison:

The Tenebrous Way wrote:Tenebrous was by far the most powerful Force-user whose death Plagueis had the opportunity to observe, and he had known all along that his apprentice would apply all his physical, mental, and Force capabilities - pitiful as they might be - to witness each slightest detail.

So not only is it not anywhere near as clear-cut as your initial reply represented it as being. I'm struggling to believe that Plagueis, nevermind his inferior in Sidious, scales from Tenebrous' master by much of any margin whatsoever.

NOTE: Again, more on that later.

But here's the thing. The biggest claim to fame that Sidious and Plagueis had, and required to replicate Tenebrous' power. Was in all actuality something the Son had done and they had been amplified by:

Darth Plagueis wrote:“The Jedi await the coming of a savior, a prophesied Chosen One who will destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force. The Jedi tell of Mortis, a place of impossible geography inside the angles of a gargantuan monolith. The three all-powerful beings of Mortis can assume strange shapes and exemplify the dark side, the light side, and the principle of balance.

“Compelling? It is debatable, but at the very least it is an adequate way to illustrate an allegorical point. Day coexists with night, for example and construction is always followed by ruin. Yet many of the Jedi treat the legend of Mortis as literal truth. They believe that the Chosen One will prevent these gods and demons from tearing the universe asunder—that their champion will be a vessel of pure Force energy.”

Even the novel references Mortis, which means there is an absolute and definitive canonical link between the two. It is hence confirmed that the Son caused an imbalance with his power and that Anakin's destiny is to stop it:

The Father and Anakin Skywalker, Altar of Mortis, Star Wars The Clone Wars wrote:"Do you feel your destiny? You must see it now. I am dying, and you must replace me."
"Replace you? I can't stay here."
"But this is yours. It has been foretold. The Chosen One will remain to keep my children in balance."
"No."
"I cannot force you to do this. The choice must be yours. But leave and your selfishness shall haunt you and the galaxy."

The Father and the Son, The Mortis Arc, Star Wars The Clone Wars wrote:"You are growing stronger, my son."
"Am I, father?"
"Vanity, however, is getting the better of you."
"How so?"
"You have done what is forbidden. You have chosen the dark side and allowed it to feed your anger and desire for power."

The Databank wrote:In the mysterious realm of Mortis there exists a trio of beings able to wield the Force in ways no known mortals of the galaxy can. The Father maintained balance between his Daughter and his Son, who expressed affinity to the light and dark side of the Force, respectively. The Father knew his days were numbered -- facing his impending demise, he needed to find another to keep the balance. His goal was the same described in an ancient Jedi prophecy -- the rise of a Chosen One who will bring balance to the Force.

Only because of this imbalance, and the power the dark side now had, could Plagueis replicate the power of Tenebrous:

Darth Plagueis wrote:The question of whether he and Sidious had discovered something new or rediscovered something ancient was beside the point. All that mattered was that, almost a decade earlier, they had succeeded in willing the Force to shift and tip irrevocably to the dark side. Not a mere paradigm shift, but a tangible alteration that could be felt by anyone strong in the Force, and whether or not trained in the Sith or Jedi arts.

The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force's proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended.

On the same day they had allowed Venamis to die.

Then, by manipulating the Bith's midi-chlorians, which should have been inert and unresponsive, Plagueis had resurrected him. The enormity of the event had stunned Sidious into silence and overwhelmed and addled 11-4D's processors, but Plagueis had carried on without assistance, again and again allowing Venamis to die and be returned to life, until the Bith's organs had given out and Plagueis had finally granted him everlasting death.

But having gained the power to keep another alive hadn't been enough for him.

So in other words, the Banite Sith's power capped out with Tenebrous. They needed an ungodly amplification to replicate and surpass that. In fact, Plagueis fully admits that prior to this, he'd failed to replicate the powers of the likes of Exar Kun:

Darth Plagueis wrote:If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and holocrons, the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish this. But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras? Some commentators claimed that the ability to survive death had been limited to those with a talent for sorcery and alchemy, and that the use of such practices actually predated the arrival of the Dark Jedi exiles on Korriban. But sorcery had been employed less to extend life than to create illusions, fashion beasts, and resurrect the dead. Powerful adepts were said to have been able to saturate the atmosphere of planets with dark side energy, compel stars to explode, or induce paralysis in crowds, as Exar Kun apparently did to select members of the Republic Senate. Other adepts used sorcery merely as a means to better understand ancient Sith spells and sigils.

Darth Bane had referred to sorcery as one of the purest expressions of the dark side of the Force, and yet he hadn't been able to harness those energies with near the skill as had his onetime apprentice Zannah

So Plagueis is effectively saying, that Exar Kun and Naga Sadow were either genuinely more powerful than him or the dark side of the Force had been stronger back then. Which doesn't really matter. Because it means the same thing. The powers of the Banite line up until the imbalance, were lesser than that of Exar Kun by Plagueis' own admission.

It makes sense though, in all honesty. Because even Plagueis approaching his prime was unable to shroud his powers from the senses of Jedi who were across the galaxy:

Darth Plagueis wrote:Palpatine paced away from Pestage. He opened himself fully to the Force, and was left staggered by an inrush of overwhelming malevolence. He planted his left hand on the desk for support and managed a stuttering inhale. Somewhere close by, the dark side was unspooling.

[...]

“Master, we need to leave at once,” Sidious said. “What I felt, the Jedi may have felt, and they will come.”

[...]

“I’m relieved to learn that I didn’t disappoint you, Master. But the Jedi summoned the police to the Fobosi district moments after we left. The plan is already endangered.”

Color rose in Plagueis’s cheeks. “The Jedi have long known that the dark side has been reawakened and cannot be checked by them. Now they have felt it on their own Coruscant.”

Whereas Kun in a very weakened spiritual state was able to do both that and knock out Corran Horn, whilst maintaining direct domination over Kyp's mind. But this time, it was literally fifteen meters away from a hall full of Jedi:

I, Jedi wrote:"What happened to you?"
"Kyp didn't like the menu." I winced as a twing rang through my ribs. "We had a discussion in the hallway, you didn't feel anything?" Heads all around the hallway shook, and I felt a cold dread begin to congeal in my stomach. If Exar Kun could mask the attack on me in such a way that Master Skywalker could not feel it barely fifteen meters away, then we were up against something more powerful than I'd cared to imagine existing.

One of which was Master Luke Skywalker, who had already been actively looking for him:

Dark Apprentice wrote:His best students were going sour, getting impatient, trying to push the limits of their abilities. But he had sensed a greater, deeper menace that vibrated within the very stones of the Great Temple itself. . . evil, and well hidden.

Would you now like me to explain why possibly capping out at Exar Kun means Vitiate murks Plagueis, by extension the brothers, and thus so would the Outlander?

Your scaling ain't got shit.
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Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 Empty Re: Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress

on Fri 5 Jul - 12:35
This is becoming the GOAT thread on SI.
LadyKulvax
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Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 Empty Re: Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress

on Fri 5 Jul - 13:54
He wants to debate my scaling, he can try.
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Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress - Page 4 Empty Re: Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress

on Sat 6 Jul - 11:06
This thread is now bookmarked.
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