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lorenzo.r.2nd
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Vader (Suited Prime) vs Tenebrous  - Page 3 Empty Re: Vader (Suited Prime) vs Tenebrous

on May 20th 2020, 3:34 pm
@Meatpants wrote:
@The lord of hunger wrote:imagine still thinking that resurrection takes place before rotj

It's advertised as ROTJ Vader, the timeline is irrelevant since it isn't in the timeline.

Either way, Vader's growth from ANH to ROTJ, while significant, wouldn't put him *that* far above Maul; certainly not enough to justify him being Dooku level, for instance.
if it isnt in the normal timeline, then its not ROTJ either, right? not play the retard card here either, but doesnt wookiepiedia say it takes place before ANH?
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on May 20th 2020, 3:37 pm
It's advertised as the brawl to settle it all - Vader vs Maul. The comic is infinities, so the fight never happened, and thus the timeline they use is irrelevant.

It's not like it being ANH Vader gives ROTJ Vader much more to work with.

Plus, George Lucas still one-shots the comic, so the entire thing is incorrect anyway.
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on May 20th 2020, 3:40 pm
Cool. Vader's suited prime is The Force Unleashed where he contends with Starkiller "a top tier" and is shown to not be a "slow half man half machine"

ROTJ Vader < Maul is fine, TFU Vader has better feats and better scaling and isn't hampered by george.
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on May 20th 2020, 3:45 pm
What exactly does TFU Vader scale from? And how exactly is TFU Vader > ANH Vader?
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on May 20th 2020, 3:51 pm
@Meatpants wrote:What exactly does TFU Vader scale from? And how exactly is TFU Vader > ANH Vader?

By virtue of being better in terms of feats and OT Vader being sub TPM Jedi while TFU Vader is a match for Galen who as a teenager was already more powerful than most knights and by his 20s was more powerful than council masters. This is all before TFU 2 where Vader proves to grow far more powerful in of himself. I plan on debuting more of this later on, but for now his feats are better, he's visibly not as slow, and he's matching opponents OT Vader could not
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on May 20th 2020, 3:54 pm
Ah, you mean the Vader who's inferior to the Galen Sidious effortlessly ragdolled?

Being better in terms of feats only means ANH Vader scales from it, unless you've got evidence he declined from TFU2 to ROTJ.

Nobody is saying Vader isn't better than most Jedi Knights, just the good ones (or the extremely prodigious ones, like TPM Kenobi).

What council masters was Galen superior to? Shaak Ti?
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on May 20th 2020, 4:12 pm
@Meatpants wrote:Ah, you mean the Vader who's inferior to the Galen Sidious effortlessly ragdolled?

Being better in terms of feats only means ANH Vader scales from it, unless you've got evidence he declined from TFU2 to ROTJ.

Nobody is saying Vader isn't better than most Jedi Knights, just the good ones (or the extremely prodigious ones, like TPM Kenobi).

What council masters was Galen superior to? Shaak Ti?

I think you miss the point. George has said time and time again that Vader and ESB Luke aren't that far apart, but we see that ESB Luke isn't that powerful he can't even lift an X-wing, so what we have to do then is look at the C canon sources and say "alright how do we fix this?" and the answer is simple, something happens in the gap between TFU 2 to ANH that makes Vader a "half-man half cyborg" and sub TPM Kenobi, but Starkiller is "one of the top tiers" of the force users so we have to reconcile the time periods.

I have fully accepted Lucas into my heart and OT Vader and TFU Vader are separate overall based on shown feats and statements
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on May 20th 2020, 4:16 pm
Uh, regarding Resurrection, it was designed to function around the time of ANH within continuity - the fact that it was later made non-canon doesn't change the idea that the comic was written with ANH Vader in mind - so why exactly are we assuming it's ROTJ Vader? I'm not exactly sure how the comic being made to answer the debate really serves as an adequate reason, as it can still do so under the context of it being ANH Vader. To elaborate, given that Vader wins the fight circa ANH we can assume he'd win as of ROTJ as well - with it being even less of a struggle - and the debate is still settled.
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on May 20th 2020, 4:33 pm
The G Canon Purist wrote:I think you miss the point. George has said time and time again that Vader and ESB Luke aren't that far apart, but we see that ESB Luke isn't that powerful he can't even lift an X-wing, so what we have to do then is look at the C canon sources and say "alright how do we fix this?" and the answer is simple, something happens in the gap between TFU 2 to ANH that makes Vader a "half-man half cyborg" and sub TPM Kenobi, but Starkiller is "one of the top tiers" of the force users so we have to reconcile the time periods.

I have fully accepted Lucas into my heart and OT Vader and TFU Vader are separate overall based on shown feats and statements

Just because Luke failed to lift an X-wing, doesn't mean Vader necessarily couldn't. Just like how Luke was completely helpless when Vader used TK against him. Vader is the superior combatant, he has the experience to focus on the Force and use it in ways Luke hasn't yet. It sort of reminds me of Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in TPM. Obi-Wan can clearly challenge his master, but he still lacks the ability to focus on the Force like Qui-Gon does, which makes a significant difference. Also, that doesn't preclude Luke being a prodigious lightsaber duelist either (which he is), and we have to remember that Luke is stated to be growing massively throughout the entire duel. Half a year after that, with mostly self-teaching, he rounds himself out to be an equal and match for Vader in both the Force and as a duelist.

There's nothing to fix.

Can you explain how Starkiller is one of the top tiers when Sidious ragdolled him?
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on May 20th 2020, 4:39 pm
@Meatpants wrote:
The G Canon Purist wrote:I think you miss the point. George has said time and time again that Vader and ESB Luke aren't that far apart, but we see that ESB Luke isn't that powerful he can't even lift an X-wing, so what we have to do then is look at the C canon sources and say "alright how do we fix this?" and the answer is simple, something happens in the gap between TFU 2 to ANH that makes Vader a "half-man half cyborg" and sub TPM Kenobi, but Starkiller is "one of the top tiers" of the force users so we have to reconcile the time periods.

I have fully accepted Lucas into my heart and OT Vader and TFU Vader are separate overall based on shown feats and statements

Just because Luke failed to lift an X-wing, doesn't mean Vader necessarily couldn't. Just like how Luke was completely helpless when Vader used TK against him. Vader is the superior combatant, he has the experience to focus on the Force and use it in ways Luke hasn't yet. It sort of reminds me of Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in TPM. Obi-Wan can clearly challenge his master, but he still lacks the ability to focus on the Force like Qui-Gon does, which makes a significant difference. Also, that doesn't preclude Luke being a prodigious lightsaber duelist either (which he is), and we have to remember that Luke is stated to be growing massively throughout the entire duel. Half a year after that, with mostly self-teaching, he rounds himself out to be an equal and match for Vader in both the Force and as a duelist.

There's nothing to fix.

Can you explain how Starkiller is one of the top tiers when Sidious ragdolled him?

I'm gonna ignore the first paragraph because I guess you can't see that pulling down ISD's is out of Lucas's realm for Vader

secondly, if you have a problem with the "top tiers statement" take that up with his creator:

Vader (Suited Prime) vs Tenebrous  - Page 3 Unknown

and the campaign guide

Vader (Suited Prime) vs Tenebrous  - Page 3 6333125-4650168151-TFUCG
Meatpants
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on May 20th 2020, 5:01 pm
The G Canon Purist wrote:I'm gonna ignore the first paragraph because I guess you can't see that pulling down ISD's is out of Lucas's realm for Vader

Concession accepted on the points you refused to address.

The G Canon Purist wrote:secondly, if you have a problem with the "top tiers statement" take that up with his creator:

If memory serves me correctly, that's Sam Witwer, or one of the creators of the game. Anyway, SK demonstrably does not have the most Force potential, nor does his potential have anything to do with him being top tier.

The G Canon Purist wrote:and the campaign guide

Being among the most powerful Force users in the galaxy isn't anything impressive when there's like a handful of people to compare to.
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Vader (Suited Prime) vs Tenebrous  - Page 3 Empty Re: Vader (Suited Prime) vs Tenebrous

on May 20th 2020, 5:05 pm
CONCESSION ACCEPTED.
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on May 20th 2020, 5:35 pm
@Meatpants wrote:
The G Canon Purist wrote:I'm gonna ignore the first paragraph because I guess you can't see that pulling down ISD's is out of Lucas's realm for Vader

Concession accepted on the points you refused to address.

The G Canon Purist wrote:secondly, if you have a problem with the "top tiers statement" take that up with his creator:

If memory serves me correctly, that's Sam Witwer, or one of the creators of the game. Anyway, SK demonstrably does not have the most Force potential, nor does his potential have anything to do with him being top tier.

The G Canon Purist wrote:and the campaign guide

Being among the most powerful Force users in the galaxy isn't anything impressive when there's like a handful of people to compare to.

Well the methodology has changed significantly for author statements. I think using Haden Blackman (project lead and director) of the force unleashed who worked extensively with George Lucas to iron out these characters and how they operate, power level, etc. I think that is a perfectly reasonable opinion to judge off of. Especially considering Blackman specifically wanted to please Lucas and make something that fits with his story. Hence why Vader is so powerful in The Force Unleashed since it's the previously roped off "Dark Times" era. Haden also expresses a different opinion on Vader than Lucas had at this time, that he could prove the emperor wrong.

So overall, it's reasonable to say that the Force Unleashed is like as Haden put it "new toys in George Lucas's toy box" that fit within Lucas's proverbial toybox. (The Force Unleashed comic forward from Haden)

So like, it's not hard to believe that since we know Vader drops off from being a powerhouse by ANH, Blackman confirms he thinks Vader can prove Lucas wrong during this time, and the Force Unleashed is set before ANH, that something happens that causes that fall from grace.
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on May 20th 2020, 6:20 pm
well if it doesnt matter why even bringing resurrection to the discussion then?  and its never been confirmed which timeline does the fight takes place but its heavily implied its before anh.

vader s grow its pretty significant per number of sources.
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on May 20th 2020, 7:19 pm
The G Canon Purist wrote:Well the methodology has changed significantly for author statements. I think using Haden Blackman (project lead and director) of the force unleashed who worked extensively with George Lucas to iron out these characters and how they operate, power level, etc. I think that is a perfectly reasonable opinion to judge off of. Especially considering Blackman specifically wanted to please Lucas and make something that fits with his story. Hence why Vader is so powerful in The Force Unleashed since it's the previously roped off "Dark Times" era. Haden also expresses a different opinion on Vader than Lucas had at this time, that he could prove the emperor wrong.

So overall, it's reasonable to say that the Force Unleashed is like as Haden put it "new toys in George Lucas's toy box" that fit within Lucas's proverbial toybox. (The Force Unleashed comic forward from Haden)

So like, it's not hard to believe that since we know Vader drops off from being a powerhouse by ANH, Blackman confirms he thinks Vader can prove Lucas wrong during this time, and the Force Unleashed is set before ANH, that something happens that causes that fall from grace.

The methodology for author statements doesn't change because you say so. Author statements are not C-canon. If an author says Agen Kolar > Kit Fisto, but a C-canon source says the opposite, then the latter is 100% correct. There is no way to verify whether Lucas shares the views of Blackman; and no, saying "well he worked with Lucas so anything he says is basically from Lucas' mouth" isn't a legitimate argument.

Clearly, Starkiller didn't prove the Emperor wrong in any capacity, because the Emperor toyed with him and tanked his oneness explosion point-blank. That in of itself is in direct contradiction to Galen having the most potential of any Force user ever, because someone with Anakin+ tier potential going into oneness and exploding right in front of Sidious would kill him. Plus, we know of course that Anakin has the most potential, so when Blackman and Witwer say this stuff, it doesn't count as C-canon, and it's wrong anyway because stuff IU and OOU proves it.

Show me the quote where Blackman "confirms he thinks Vader can prove Lucas wrong during this time". Even if that's true, again, it's an author statement.

There remains no evidence to suggest Vader drops drastically in the very short interim between TFU2 and ANH.

---

@The lord of hunger wrote:well if it doesnt matter why even bringing resurrection to the discussion then?  and its never been confirmed which timeline does the fight takes place but its heavily implied its before anh.

vader s grow its pretty significant per number of sources.

I mentioned it because if it's applicable, it's the best showing Vader has, and he hardly beat TPM Maul.

Vader's growth is significant during the OT, but nothing to suggest he went from struggling with Maul to absolutely smacking him since the growth is relatively unquantifiable.

Though granted, it's ultimately irrelevant since Lucas one-shots the Resurrection fight anyway.
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Vader (Suited Prime) vs Tenebrous  - Page 3 Empty Re: Vader (Suited Prime) vs Tenebrous

on May 20th 2020, 7:34 pm
@Meatpants wrote:
The G Canon Purist wrote:Well the methodology has changed significantly for author statements. I think using Haden Blackman (project lead and director) of the force unleashed who worked extensively with George Lucas to iron out these characters and how they operate, power level, etc. I think that is a perfectly reasonable opinion to judge off of. Especially considering Blackman specifically wanted to please Lucas and make something that fits with his story. Hence why Vader is so powerful in The Force Unleashed since it's the previously roped off "Dark Times" era. Haden also expresses a different opinion on Vader than Lucas had at this time, that he could prove the emperor wrong.

So overall, it's reasonable to say that the Force Unleashed is like as Haden put it "new toys in George Lucas's toy box" that fit within Lucas's proverbial toybox. (The Force Unleashed comic forward from Haden)

So like, it's not hard to believe that since we know Vader drops off from being a powerhouse by ANH, Blackman confirms he thinks Vader can prove Lucas wrong during this time, and the Force Unleashed is set before ANH, that something happens that causes that fall from grace.

The methodology for author statements doesn't change because you say so. Author statements are not C-canon. If an author says Agen Kolar > Kit Fisto, but a C-canon source says the opposite, then the latter is 100% correct. There is no way to verify whether Lucas shares the views of Blackman; and no, saying "well he worked with Lucas so anything he says is basically from Lucas' mouth" isn't a legitimate argument.

Clearly, Starkiller didn't prove the Emperor wrong in any capacity, because the Emperor toyed with him and tanked his oneness explosion point-blank. That in of itself is in direct contradiction to Galen having the most potential of any Force user ever, because someone with Anakin+ tier potential going into oneness and exploding right in front of Sidious would kill him. Plus, we know of course that Anakin has the most potential, so when Blackman and Witwer say this stuff, it doesn't count as C-canon, and it's wrong anyway because stuff IU and OOU proves it.

Show me the quote where Blackman "confirms he thinks Vader can prove Lucas wrong during this time". Even if that's true, again, it's an author statement.

There remains no evidence to suggest Vader drops drastically in the very short interim between TFU2 and ANH.

---

@The lord of hunger wrote:well if it doesnt matter why even bringing resurrection to the discussion then?  and its never been confirmed which timeline does the fight takes place but its heavily implied its before anh.

vader s grow its pretty significant per number of sources.

I mentioned it because if it's applicable, it's the best showing Vader has, and he hardly beat TPM Maul.

Vader's growth is significant during the OT, but nothing to suggest he went from struggling with Maul to absolutely smacking him since the growth is relatively unquantifiable.

Though granted, it's ultimately irrelevant since Lucas one-shots the Resurrection fight anyway.
a no vader have better showings than the maul fight especially the entirety of the coruscant nights trilogy 


its not that really unquantifiable he grows to surpass ben and being a more intimidating opponent than before 


why bringing lucas?
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on May 21st 2020, 1:57 am
@The lord of hunger wrote:a no vader have better showings than the maul fight especially the entirety of the coruscant nights trilogy

Can you point me to any feats in particular during the trilogy that trumps defeating Darth Maul in a lightsaber duel?

@The lord of hunger wrote:its not that really unquantifiable he grows to surpass ben and being a more intimidating opponent than before

He was already about equal to Ben, so him surpassing Ben doesn't really mean a lot. It's like saying AOTC Kenobi > TPM Kenobi. Yes, he grew, but by what amount? The sources don't make it exactly clear, however we can't make too many assumptions.

@The lord of hunger wrote:why bringing lucas?

Because Lucas has supreme authority on Legends continuity.
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on May 21st 2020, 2:03 am
@Meatpants wrote:
@The lord of hunger wrote:a no vader have better showings than the maul fight especially the entirety of the coruscant nights trilogy

Can you point me to any feats in particular during the trilogy that trumps defeating Darth Maul in a lightsaber duel?
Tons of it especially the confrontations with jax pavan and all of the scaling he gets especially the >Kar vastor part

defeating maul isnt that huge achievement tbf especially tpm versión 


@The lord of hunger wrote:its not that really unquantifiable he grows to surpass ben and being a more intimidating opponent than before

He was already about equal to Ben, so him surpassing Ben doesn't really mean a lot. It's like saying AOTC Kenobi > TPM Kenobi. Yes, he grew, but by what amount? The sources don't make it exactly clear, however we can't make too many assumptions.

He was superior to Ben per numeral sources...

@The lord of hunger wrote:why bringing lucas?

Because Lucas has supreme authority on Legends continuity.
Yeah no Lucas always make clear he give a fuck about Legends continuity never the guy have touched or read a book of it he especially make it clear tons of times
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on May 21st 2020, 2:13 am
No, he did read some books, he was directly involved in a number of Legends material and the official Holocron uses Lucas as the solid foundation of continuity. So, yeah, in Legends Lucas was officially word of God.

But the thing is, again, what does Vader have even without Lucas hampering him? Especially since it isn’t entirely plausible that Resurrection is useable. All I’ve heard so far is that he blitzed some no name Jedi.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on May 21st 2020, 2:21 am
@Meatpants wrote:No, he did read some books, he was directly involved in a number of Legends material and the official Holocron uses Lucas as the solid foundation of continuity. So, yeah, in Legends Lucas was officially word of God.

But the thing is, again, what does Vader have even without Lucas hampering him? Especially since it isn’t entirely plausible that Resurrection is useable. All I’ve heard so far is that he blitzed some no name Jedi.
i think both pavan and ferus couldnt see he move. thats about it tho, i cant think of anything else. vader has short burst speed feats. aside from deflecting attacks, he really has no continuous speed feat
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on May 21st 2020, 2:34 am
Some very low level Jedi can’t keep up with Vader’s speed? How is that impressive?
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on May 21st 2020, 10:11 am
@The lord of hunger wrote:
defeating maul isnt that huge achievement tbf especially tpm versión 

Say whaaat? Defeating one of the most well trained and deadliest Sith in all the history's order isn't impressive?
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on May 21st 2020, 11:16 am
@Meatpants wrote:No, he did read some books, he was directly involved in a number of Legends material and the official Holocron uses Lucas as the solid foundation of continuity. So, yeah, in Legends Lucas was officially word of God.

But the thing is, again, what does Vader have even without Lucas hampering him? Especially since it isn’t entirely plausible that Resurrection is useable. All I’ve heard so far is that he blitzed some no name Jedi.
contradicted by this quotes also got a source that he stated he read a book or not? 

Vader (Suited Prime) vs Tenebrous  - Page 3 Captur10



"I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."
―George Lucas, from an interview in Starlog #337



have you actually read the novel meatpants?
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on May 21st 2020, 11:17 am
@Zenwolf wrote:
@The lord of hunger wrote:
defeating maul isnt that huge achievement tbf especially tpm versión 

Say whaaat? Defeating one of the most well trained and deadliest Sith in all the history's order isn't impressive?
comparing to all of vader feats in existence isnt impressive but i no doubt that maul is a opponent to be feared tbf i could say the cathedral feat or the bota force storm one impresses me more than the resurrection fight.


Last edited by The lord of hunger on May 21st 2020, 1:36 pm; edited 3 times in total
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on May 21st 2020, 12:08 pm
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