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DarthAdi
DarthAdi

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on Tue 28 Apr 2020 - 5:20
Jaggarath
Jaggarath
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on Tue 28 Apr 2020 - 6:46
Based on the discussion, I don't see any reason whatsoever to think Chee's line is solely repeating what Lucas said. He should have said then "even if Obi-Wan is stronger than Vader, he still lost," but he didn't. He's saying "Obi-Wan is stronger than Vader, but he still lost" straight-up, in the exact same way as "Rey defeats Kylo Ren."
BoD
BoD
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on Tue 28 Apr 2020 - 6:52
He uses the "Ben was a 6, Vader was a 4" quote, which is vastly outdated.
DarthAdi
DarthAdi

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on Tue 28 Apr 2020 - 7:07
It's pretty obvious that Chee's tweet is not a personal opinion (he probably doesn't have any opinion on this or on power levels in general).  He also said that he don't want to comment about Vader's power level.
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Is clear that in this context he is just echoing that statement. His tweets are not binding regardless if he agrees with the quote or not. Lucas's quote is canon only to legends and Chee agreeing with it (which i don't think he does) doesn't mean that he made it Disney canon.
Disney took Vader in a completly new dirrection and some vague quote on twitter can't change that.
DarthAdi
DarthAdi

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on Tue 28 Apr 2020 - 7:20
Also, the initial question was about G canon which doesn't exist in Disney canon. It's very probable he talked from a legends perspective as the question was about legends. Chee mentioning Kylo and Rey was just another example of power levels not being that important in storytelling regardless if it's canon or legends.


Last edited by DarthAdi on Tue 28 Apr 2020 - 7:38; edited 1 time in total
SithSauce
SithSauce
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on Tue 28 Apr 2020 - 7:35
@DarthAdi even from a Legends perspective, Chee doesn't make a definitive statement that Ben is>Vader. He clearly is echoing the tweet to make his own point that is completely seperate on his stance on Ben and Vader


Last edited by SithSauce on Tue 28 Apr 2020 - 20:53; edited 1 time in total
DarthAdi
DarthAdi

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on Tue 28 Apr 2020 - 7:45
@SithSauce: I agree.
Galan007
Galan007

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on Tue 28 Apr 2020 - 11:40
SithSauce
@DarthAdi even from a Legends perspective, Chee doesn't make a definitive statement that Ben is>Vader. He clearly is echoing the tweet to make his own point.
Matt Martin has also stated that random writer comments are not canonical in and of themselves:
https://i.imgur.com/32n1bgs.jpg

Published stories are always going to take absolute precedence where canon is concerned.
Galan007
Galan007

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on Tue 28 Apr 2020 - 11:46
@freethedevil
Canon treats Vader much differently than Legends did. In canon, Vader's injuries never gimped his potential. In fact, his injuries/armor made him more powerful than ever.
SithSauce
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on Tue 28 Apr 2020 - 20:51
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DarthAdi
DarthAdi

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on Tue 28 Apr 2020 - 21:10
@Galan007: I agree that Vader got more powerful, but i still think he lost potential, just not nearly as much as in legends. Before Mustafar he had the potential to become as powerful as The Father. Vader, while very powerful, was not even close to that, even in his prime.
Galan007
Galan007

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on Tue 28 Apr 2020 - 21:55
@DarthAdi wrote:@Galan007: I agree that Vader got more powerful, but i still think he lost potential, just not nearly as much as in legends. Before Mustafar he had the potential to become as powerful as The Father. Vader, while very powerful, was not even close to that, even in his prime.
Physical injuries do not reduce potential in canon, and Vader has never been stated to have lost power/potential in any sources that I am aware of. 

Vader never fully reaching said potential has less to do with his power being gimped, and more to do with Palpatine incessantly hoarding knowledge for himself -- only sharing just enough knowledge/power with Vader to keep him subservient and under heel.
Azronger
Azronger
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on Wed 29 Apr 2020 - 1:40
@Galan007 Doesn't Palpatine suggest Vader's potential was lessened in TROS to Kylo by telling him to become what his grandfather could not?

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Galan007
Galan007

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on Wed 29 Apr 2020 - 2:11
@Azronger I took the "become what Vader could not" line to mean that Kylo was on the path to become a proper Sith apprentice/successor(which Vader obviously wasn't.)
Latham2000
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on Wed 29 Apr 2020 - 3:02
Is Sam Witwer subtly trying to do damage control here???

Sam Witwer: I always felt that Star Wars fights are all about the values of the two characters that are fighting and that's what determines how the fight goes, and Maul is not at his best when he's fighting to save the galaxy and Ahsoka is at her best when she's fighting to save her friend.



Go to 4:11.
Azronger
Azronger
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on Wed 29 Apr 2020 - 4:51
@Galan007 But Palpatine says Vader "could not" as opposed to "did not," so what Vader was or wasn't has no bearing on what he could or could not have been. Contextually, Palpatine is also offering Kylo the Final Order fleet and saying he will be the new Emperor, so I would take it to mean Vader could never have surpassed Palpatine in the suit, whereas Kylo (and Anakin) could. Also, my understanding is that in Canon, Vader didn't carry much emotional baggage and seemed to be fully committed to the Sith path until Luke enters the fray, so I don't see how Vader wasn't a "proper apprentice" as you describe it.

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Galan007
Galan007

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on Wed 29 Apr 2020 - 5:20
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@Azronger wrote:@Galan007 But Palpatine says Vader "could not" as opposed to "did not," so what Vader was or wasn't has no bearing on what he could or could not have been. Contextually, Palpatine is also offering Kylo the Final Order fleet and saying he will be the new Emperor, so I would take it to mean Vader could never have surpassed Palpatine in the suit, whereas Kylo (and Anakin) could. Also, my understanding is that in Canon, Vader didn't carry much emotional baggage and seemed to be fully committed to the Sith path until Luke enters the fray, so I don't see how Vader wasn't a "proper apprentice" as you describe it.

I disagree with your interpretation, personally.

I think it's more in reference to the fact that Vader ultimately "could not" kill his son, thus "could not" eradicate the light within him, thus "could not" destroy the Jedi, thus "could not" fulfill his role as a proper Sith and succeed Palpatine as Master/Emperor. Hence the full context of the line: "The might of the Final Order will soon be ready. It will be yours if you do as I ask. Kill the girl. End the Jedi. And become what your grandfather Vader could not."

I do not think that statement is drawing a direct comparison between the power/potential of Vader and Kylo at all, but rather, comparing their respective motivations and resolve.


Initially I would say that Vader did not have any sort of inner conflict/turmoil -- he was as "Sith" as it gets. However, that all changed when Vader figured out that Luke was his son and Palpatine had lied to him. Moreover, the RoS novelization states that Palpatine had sensed the growing light within Vader for a number of years, which was one of the main reasons why he began making preparations to transfer his essence -- he knew betrayal(and not of the Sith kind) was imminent.
Gianfi
Gianfi

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on Wed 29 Apr 2020 - 5:57
So Ahsoka was amped
Latham2000
Latham2000
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on Wed 29 Apr 2020 - 6:25
Ahsoka was not amped. All that quote indicates is that she was in her A game, whereas Maul was not in his A game due to having a different mindset and stake. Though I do want to see more information, and preferably not from Twitter where fans are bugging SW officials/staff into saying the desired words.
DarthAdi
DarthAdi

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on Wed 29 Apr 2020 - 6:39
@Galan007:  I'm not convinced that Palpatine incessantly hoarding knowledge for himself is a good enough reason for Vader not surpassing Palpatine in 23 years. I doubt that Anakin had more knowledge than Vader and his power growth was way faster indicating greater potential.
Gianfi
Gianfi

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on Wed 29 Apr 2020 - 7:17
^Agreed. He grew pretty fast for 13 years, then he suddenly slowed after in 23 years as a sith?
Galan007
Galan007

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on Wed 29 Apr 2020 - 8:25
@DarthAdi wrote:@Galan007:  I'm not convinced that Palpatine incessantly hoarding knowledge for himself is a good enough reason for Vader not surpassing Palpatine in 23 years. I doubt that Anakin had more knowledge than Vader and his power growth was way faster indicating greater potential.
Only if you assume that Palpatine's power remained stagnant, which certainly doesn't seem to be the case(OT-era Palpatine is logically > RotS Palpatine.)

Palpatine spent all those years hoarding as much knowledge as possible, in order to further his own power... Which, factoring in Palpatine's own potential, would have always kept him a notch above Vader(who was only receiving a trickle of that knowledge.)

However, this does not preclude the notion that OT-era Vader may have surpassed the level of, say, RotS Palpatine(I know this won't be a popular opinion, but it's just my two cents.)
freethedevil
freethedevil

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on Thu 30 Apr 2020 - 7:33
@Latham2000 wrote:Ahsoka was not amped. All that quote indicates is that she was in her A game, whereas Maul was not in his A game due to having a different mindset and stake. Though I do want to see more information, and preferably not from Twitter where fans are bugging SW officials/staff into saying the desired words.
Also, voice actor opinions aren't canon lmao.

Given how much ridicule people have given filoni's own opinion being used as a source, it's laughable to turn around and suse voice actor quotes when convenient.
SithSauce
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on Thu 30 Apr 2020 - 19:00
@freethedevil wrote:
@Latham2000 wrote:Ahsoka was not amped. All that quote indicates is that she was in her A game, whereas Maul was not in his A game due to having a different mindset and stake. Though I do want to see more information, and preferably not from Twitter where fans are bugging SW officials/staff into saying the desired words.
Also, voice actor opinions aren't canon lmao.

Given how much ridicule people have given filoni's own opinion being used as a source, it's laughable to turn around and suse voice actor quotes when convenient.
It's not that Filoni's opinion doesn't mean anything but some of things he says don't make much sense.

"We used to have this problem in Clone Wars when we would try to put Yoda in a story and it would be like, “Yeah, if Yoda’s there, this isn’t really a problem is it?” That’s because Yoda’s going to go in there and kick everyone’s butt. We all felt that Ahsoka, the only person that could really match her in this time period, blow for blow, would be Vader or the Emperor"--Dave Filoni

Yet we quite clearly see Maul match Ahsoka in Twilight of the Apprentice "blow for blow" right before Tano retreated.
It's possible that Filoni forgot to mention Maul as one of the contenders but that seems very unlikely considering how prominent of a character Maul has been in both his animated shows.
Latham2000
Latham2000
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on Thu 30 Apr 2020 - 20:11
@freethedevil wrote:
@Latham2000 wrote:Ahsoka was not amped. All that quote indicates is that she was in her A game, whereas Maul was not in his A game due to having a different mindset and stake. Though I do want to see more information, and preferably not from Twitter where fans are bugging SW officials/staff into saying the desired words.
Also, voice actor opinions aren't canon lmao.

Given how much ridicule people have given filoni's own opinion being used as a source, it's laughable to turn around and suse voice actor quotes when convenient.
No creator statement is canon, what is canon are the LFL sources. However, Witwer's explanation is included in the official Star Wars channel, which is an LFL source. Filoni is worshipped.
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