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Latham2000
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Anakin Skywalker vs Count Dooku or Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Maul - Which rivalry is more interesting? Empty Anakin Skywalker vs Count Dooku or Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Maul - Which rivalry is more interesting?

on February 26th 2020, 3:21 pm
Consider both their character relationships and fight dynamics as consideration for the answer.
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on February 26th 2020, 3:39 pm
Anakin vs Dooku.
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on February 26th 2020, 4:00 pm
Maul vs Kenobi
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on February 26th 2020, 4:17 pm
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Obi-Wan vs Maul is a far more interesting narrative, with much more meaningful milestones and emotional significance. 

Maul took Obi-Wan's Master from him and was in turn robbed of his destiny as heir to the Sith. Their character arcs showcase how they dealt with their respective losses. Maul focused on getting revenge and rebuild his power. He ended up killing another person Obi-Wan loved, but then paid the price and lost his own family. Eventually, Obi-Wan moved on, but Maul was still stuck in the past and thirsty for revenge. This is beautifully conveyed in their final confrontation.

A bit of an exaggeration here, but the foundation of Anakin vs Dooku is little more than warrior pride and a lost arm. It can't possibly compare.
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on February 26th 2020, 5:06 pm
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@Rohirrim wrote:Obi-Wan vs Maul is a far more interesting narrative, with much more meaningful milestones and emotional significance. 

Maul took Obi-Wan's Master from him and was in turn robbed of his destiny as heir to the Sith. Their character arcs showcase how they dealt with their respective losses. Maul focused on getting revenge and rebuild his power. He ended up killing another person Obi-Wan loved, but then paid the price and lost his own family. Eventually, Obi-Wan moved on, but Maul was still stuck in the past and thirsty for revenge. This is beautifully conveyed in their final confrontation.

A bit of an exaggeration here, but the foundation of Anakin vs Dooku is little more than warrior pride and a lost arm. It can't possibly compare.

I like this answer. I also preferred the Maul and Obi-Wan rivalry because I always looked at Maul as revenge in it's most pure form, and what kind of self destructive impact revenge has on someone because Maul's obsessive and unrelenting need for revenge proved to be his undoing, Maul just couldn't stop living in the past because his need for revenge consumed him to his death, whereas Obi-Wan decided to let go of his personal grievances and bitterness towards Maul and forgave him, essentially moving on and building his own future.

Revenge doesn't do you any favours, I know that it's natural to confuse it with justice, it's natural and human to feel the need to feel the need to punish someone who has inflicted great pain and suffering on you, it's natural and human to percieve that as giving them a taste of their own medicine, but you don't actually do yourself any favours by giving into your own resentment, it might feel like justice in the moment, it might feel empowering in the moment, but in reality you're only feeding into your own pain and creating a sadistic side of yourself. Anger releases an adrenaline in your blood stream, hence why it feels empowering, but it has its drawbacks because chronic anger weakens the immune system and causes you to prematurely age, and it also causes tunnel vision. There are the sayings "Holding onto anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die" and "Anger is like an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it's stored than to anything on which is poured" which are absolutely true and it's metaphorically illustrated in the SW mythos in the form of Dark Side Degradation. When Maul got cut in half by Obi-Wan in Naboo, Maul survived by using the Dark Side of the Force to focus on his hatred and rage for Obi-Wan for robbing him of his legs and purpose, but Maul's obsession with wanting revenge came at the huge cost. Maul succumbed to a state of madness and despair, his Force powers were diminished, and he also became physically frail to the extent that he was partially missing a horn. The Dark Side of the Force kept Maul alive, but it nearly destroyed his body.

Last year, I was had this interesting conversation with Aaron Mcbride on the story Old Wounds, the 12 page non-canon comic that proposed the idea of Maul surviving his bisection on Naboo and having a revenge hunt for Obi-Wan, which was loosely adapted in the Twin Suns episode for Rebels. Aaron was saying that his intent was that Maul was so blinded by revenge and bitterness in tracking Obi-Wan for so long that it poisoned his focus during his rematch with Kenobi. I liked that concept because it shows what revenge in its most pure and unadulterated form will do to the person it's filled with. I don't know if Dave Filoni stated that he had the exact same idea (though it's arguably a subtext), but when comparing Twin Suns and Old Wounds, I would consider Old Wounds to be an R-Rated, darker, more exaggerated version of Twin Suns because it's more violent and extreme.


Last edited by Latham2000 on February 26th 2020, 6:02 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Grammar)
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on February 26th 2020, 5:09 pm
Maul versus Kenobi of course.
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on February 26th 2020, 5:34 pm
Dooku flicked through the security monitors until he found the ballroom.

"Ah," he said. Something in his face seemed to freeze, and die. "I see you brought your protege."

"Understand you, I do not," Yoda said.

"You didn't mention bringing young Skywalker," Dooku said, pointing to the holomonitor. "And Obi-Wan, too. That changes the odds considerably. There's your Wonder Boy now, fighting the assassin droids I have standing sentry duty at the front door." His hand was wonderfully steady now. "Your new favorite son."
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on February 26th 2020, 5:53 pm
Anakin Skywalker vs Count Dooku or Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Maul - Which rivalry is more interesting? 1289255181 Great moment tbh.
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on February 26th 2020, 8:55 pm
What a snake Dooku is
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on February 27th 2020, 4:43 am
The Dragon Of The West wrote:Anakin vs Dooku.
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on February 27th 2020, 9:00 am
To add more, Sam Witwer has made this point that the heart of the Sith is ultimately "madness and despair," and that Lotho Minor Maul is basically an expression of that:
Nerdist: You’ve always come across as a very happy, joyful guy, but you’re playing characters where there’s no joy there at all. How do you prepare to go into the booth and just deliver these lines of “I’m going to kill everybody!” Is that taxing at all?

Sam Witwer: [LAUGHS] The whole intention me and Dave Filoni talked over and he and George talked over — really, what we were striving to do, and maybe we didn’t articulate this clearly at the time, but it’s a clearer sense than “This is what we’re trying to do”: Darth Maul is insane, right? It’s this cost of having been hurt badly. We had an inkling that’s what we were doing. But once we started getting into it, we realized exactly what we were doing. We wanted to show you what is happening to Darth Vader under the mask. What are his private moments like? What is that guy hiding from you? What is he filtering from the people that deal with him? What he’s filtering, what all of these bad guys in Star Wars are dealing with, is madness and despair and anger. There’s a lot of sadness in there. We were really going for that. They all encouraged me to go as dark as I possibly could, to bring some psychological complexity to that condition. Then, going forward, we had that subtext and the undercurrent for the character as he started becoming the quiet Sith Lord that we’ve known from Phantom Menace.

But there’s always an understanding that that madness is kind of with them all, all those bad guys. George talks a lot about, “What is this whole Star Wars thing about? What is at the center of Star Wars?” It’s simply this: you have the Jedi, or the good guys, whatever you want to call them. They’re about, “Hey, what can I do for other people? What can I do to make a positive impression in this world? It’s not about me. What can I do to benefit everyone else, because this is all bigger than me?” That’s such a really good guy take on Star Wars. The bad guy take is, “I want things. Give me things. I want things for myself.” That’s the most important thing. In fact, that’s the only thing, after a while, that these people to see. Take that classic scene from the original Star Wars where Obi-Wan says to Darth Vader, “If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.” Metaphorically, Obi-Wan is saying, “Hey, man: as a martyr, I’ll be far more effective than I possibly could be as a human being. In fact, I have fulfilled my role. I have passed on some knowledge and wisdom to the younger generation. I have served the greater good. I will serve even greater good if you end me right now. I dare you.”

Now, Vader cannot conceive of that. That doesn’t exist to him. For the bad guys of Star Wars, once you die, that’s it. There’s nothing more to it. You can’t accumulate any more stuff if you’re dead. You can’t take it with you. These guys just become ridiculously obsessed with holding onto absolutely everything they have. This also means when they get injured or hurt or when horrible things happen, they still hold onto it. Even more jealously they hold onto these things, because the ultimate consequence for not holding on is that if they pass on or die, they’ve got nothing. They’re these very short-sighted people, these horribly grotesquely self-obsessed people that are these Star Wars villains. From a mythological standpoint, in terms of the discussion of what is evil, I think it’s fascinating that evil is becoming so self-obsessed that you really, actually do become insane.

That’s really what we were endeavouring with the Darth Maul character: to give you another flavor of that, to help inform the Darth Vader or Emperor character, or all these characters that people have been in love with over 30 years. It’s our opportunity to give you another facet of that, in this case to give you the pure, unadulterated, “Here’s the Dark Side of the Force. It sucks. It’s not leather suits and cool laser swords. It’s madness and despair and sadness.” It’s all those things. I just went off on a complete geek rant for you.

Source --
 LET’S GO TO THE MAUL WITH THE CLONE WARS’ SAM WITWER

Dave Filoni: The Sith are consumed with never wanting to die. It's a completely physical thing to them. There is no afterlife for them. Everything exists in the now, they have to stay alive. They fear death more than anyone. Evil is usually more great than you are, that's what makes them so twisted and evil, so Vader holds on to life at the edge of the lava flow, because he such condemned for Obi-Wan, such an anger for what has happened in his life. And that same type of focused hatred is what sustains Maul. The difference with Maul is that he goes into a state where he doesn't even remember who he is or what he is, he becomes very animalistic. He regresses into a mental state because of the shock of you know, being cut in half and what happened to him after he fell down the shaft is so great that he cannot hold onto it, his consciousness becomes almost unconsciousness and becomes instead a rabid animal.

Sam Witwer: Exactly, the fun of doing all the crazy stuff was kind of showing for the first time the raw, unadulterated- this is what the Dark Side is. It’s not cool lightsaber fights, jumping around and having awesome costumes. Well it is... But it’s also madness and despair and agony, so we're like "Let’s just give them [the audience] the Dark Side without anything- without anyone- without a guy strong enough in the moment to hide all this underneath"

Source -- 
Star Wars Celebration Clone Wars Season Five Premiere

Sam Witwer: ... In a weird way, it's not a coincidence that Savage has to go underground into a fiery cave to get his brother back, and that was George Lucas's way of saying "Maul, in a mythological sense, was killed and went to hell, and if we're going to get him, we have to get him back from hell" in a weird way [...] And the psychological impact of what had happened to him had to be huge, so we really talked about what that meant, what the torture this guy had been going through, and where we landed and where I landed was about what we wanted to show you in these episodes when we first met Maul with these spider legs... Is we wanted to show you the madness of Darth Vader, we wanted to show you the madness of the Emperor, the madness of Count Dooku's private moments, all these Dark Side characters, we wanted to show you that the Dark Side is a pretty miserable place, and these people are very powerful and it's that power that allows them to keep this madness from you and not let it spew out all over the place, but Darth Maul, has lost it, he's lost his control. So you're seeing what's happening underneath the mask of Darth Vader, you're seeing what's happening in the Emperor in his private moments; you're seeing all of that as Maul is skittering around in that cave. [...] And those legs being not just an extension of the Dark Side of the Force where pieces of garbage start to stick to him as he greedily gathered what he could around himself to protect himself and what was created these legs out of garbage over the next 10 years as they grow out from him, it's also an extension of his anguish and his fear and all those things...

Source -- Episode CCIX: Sam Witwer Talks Darth Maul
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on February 27th 2020, 6:15 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:Dooku flicked through the security monitors until he found the ballroom.

"Ah," he said. Something in his face seemed to freeze, and die. "I see you brought your protege."

"Understand you, I do not," Yoda said.

"You didn't mention bringing young Skywalker," Dooku said, pointing to the holomonitor. "And Obi-Wan, too. That changes the odds considerably. There's your Wonder Boy now, fighting the assassin droids I have standing sentry duty at the front door." His hand was wonderfully steady now. "Your new favorite son."
Thats actually something I didn't consider. The rivalry between the two based on Sidious I knew of, as in Dooku wanted to show his superiority to the one he knew Sidious actually wanted for an apprentice. 

But Dooku wasn't just replaced by Sidious, but by Yoda too. As Yoda said, Dooku had been the greatest student he had, but now Anakin has taken his place. Interesting

OP: definetly Dooku vs Anakin. I'm still of the opinion Maul should never have returned at all.
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on February 28th 2020, 8:17 am
George Lucas never should've cut Maul in half in TPM. That's one of the biggest mistakes he ever made for the trilogy. Maul and Dooku should've been the 2 on front villains for the entire trilogy by being forced by Sidious to have an uneasy alliance, rivalling each other in skill and power. There should've been Anakin & Obi-Wan vs Maul & Dooku, but when Obi-Wan get rag dolled by the combined powers of Maul and Dooku, and Anakin gets mega rage amped and kills them both.
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on February 28th 2020, 9:03 am
They're both pretty interesting. Although the idea of Maul and Kenobi's persisting rivalry was completely wasted on Filoni and whoever else was responsible. Not only was it poorly executed but he ripped off Old Wounds - not only the story, but the idea of a quick Samurai chess match type of duel, which Aaron (the OW writer) was quoted as using as one of the core concepts. It's up there with TFA in how sorely it lacks originality except to make matters worse it was also boring as fuck to look at.
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on February 28th 2020, 9:23 am
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ILS wrote:They're both pretty interesting. Although the idea of Maul and Kenobi's persisting rivalry was completely wasted on Filoni and whoever else was responsible. Not only was it poorly executed but he ripped off Old Wounds - not only the story, but the idea of a quick Samurai chess match type of duel, which Aaron (the OW writer) was quoted as using as one of the core concepts. It's up there with TFA in how sorely it lacks originality except to make matters worse it was also boring as fuck to look at.

I would blame this on the TCW creative team holding restraint over the dark themes where you have to listen/read their behind the scenes videos and interviews to know what's going on. TCW's target audience are mainly kids as far as the creative team is, Dave has even alluded that he wouldn't allow TCW be go as grim as RotS movie, which had some dark moments. I agree that Aaron Mcbride did a better job at handling the dark themes with Maul and Kenobi's relationship, he had nothing but a 12 page comic limit and the assumption that Maul and Kenobi haven't met each other since the battle of Naboo in 32BBY, and one of the things that I respect about Old Wounds for having dark moments is when it shows Obi-Wan, the best of the Jedi, Obi-Wan, has a Dark Side. At the end Obi-Wan's rematch with Maul, there is this one page where Maul is at Obi-Wan's mercy:

Anakin Skywalker vs Count Dooku or Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Maul - Which rivalry is more interesting? 2019-08-31

.... But something isn't right. Maul is at Obi-Wan's mercy and he could just end Maul one and for all in just a flick of a switch, but killing a defenceless enemy is not the Jedi way. Morever, we are shown a panel of all the people Obi-Wan has ever loved, lost to the servants of the Dark Side i.e. Anakin, Padme, Qui-Gon and Mace Windu. Maul's abrupt return and defeat reminded Obi-Wan of these depressing events, and I find really interesting is that he is tempted to take his chance of venting out his rage and pain on Maul, the same Maul who started that chain of deaths resulting in Obi-Wan's loved ones being murdered, beginning with Qui-Gon Jinn's death, which is almost poetic. But Owen Lars interferes before Obi-Wan can even make that fateful choice, so it's ambiguous Obi-Wan would've actually decided to kill Maul in cold blood had Owen not interfered. You can tell that Obi-Wan is conflicted based on his facial expressions because he's under a lot of justifiable pressure, but it goes against what he stands for. 

This is more adult and dark than anything TCW and Rebels had the balls to do with the themes of pain, suffering and revenge in Maul and Kenobi's character rivalry. When I was to talking Aaron Mcbride last year, he said that part of his intent was that Obi-Wan sinked "a bit into youthful rage over all the people he's lost to the machinations of the Emperor" during his rematch with Maul, meanwhile Maul succumbed to blind rage over the frustrations of taking so many years to track down Obi-Wan. The entire storytelling of Obi-Wan venting out all his pain over what happened during the events of RotS in a fit of rage against cyborg Maul is ahead of its time, as is the idea that revenge consumed and poisoned Maul's focus to the point he succumbed to blind rage.


Last edited by Latham2000 on February 29th 2020, 4:15 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Grammar)
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on February 28th 2020, 8:02 pm
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I would blame this on the TCW creative team holding restraint over the dark themes where you have to listen/read their behind the scenes videos and interviews to know what's going on. TCW's target audience are mainly kids as far as the creative team is, Dave has even alluded that he wouldn't allow TCW be go as grim as RotS movie, which had some dark moments. 
Not sure about this.






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on February 29th 2020, 6:54 am
@BoD wrote:
I would blame this on the TCW creative team holding restraint over the dark themes where you have to listen/read their behind the scenes videos and interviews to know what's going on. TCW's target audience are mainly kids as far as the creative team is, Dave has even alluded that he wouldn't allow TCW be go as grim as RotS movie, which had some dark moments. 
Not sure about this.







Neither of these are as grim as Old Wounds.
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on February 29th 2020, 2:17 pm
To answer the question:

Maul vs Obi-Wan is a one-sided love story primarily from the perspective of a stalker who escaped the Conjuring universe.

Dooku vs Anakin just strikes me as more interesting, especially in Legends.
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on February 29th 2020, 6:16 pm
Liked Asajj and Anakin’s rivalry more, cold hatred vs liquid hot rage. Dreadnaughts of Rendili and Yavin 4 fights were so good
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on February 29th 2020, 6:58 pm
@CuckedCurry You liked Ventress vs Anakin but didn't mention Ventress vs Kenobi's love-hate-bit-of-sarcasm-mixed-with-flirting rivalry?
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on February 29th 2020, 7:08 pm
@BoD wrote:@CuckedCurry You liked Ventress vs Anakin but didn't mention Ventress vs Kenobi's love-hate-bit-of-sarcasm-mixed-with-flirting rivalry?
That one was pure gold.
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on February 29th 2020, 7:16 pm
@BoD wrote:@CuckedCurry You liked Ventress vs Anakin but didn't mention Ventress vs Kenobi's love-hate-bit-of-sarcasm-mixed-with-flirting rivalry?

Nah. Even though their rivalry was definitely stronger, the hatred Anakin and Ventress share for each other is just crisp
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on March 1st 2020, 2:32 pm
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@DarthAnt66 wrote:Dooku flicked through the security monitors until he found the ballroom.

"Ah," he said. Something in his face seemed to freeze, and die. "I see you brought your protege."

"Understand you, I do not," Yoda said.

"You didn't mention bringing young Skywalker," Dooku said, pointing to the holomonitor. "And Obi-Wan, too. That changes the odds considerably. There's your Wonder Boy now, fighting the assassin droids I have standing sentry duty at the front door." His hand was wonderfully steady now. "Your new favorite son."

This? This is just from Dooku's perspective

IU, there is basically nothing stating Yoda doting on Anakin, considering him like his apprentice, having long meaningful conversations impromptu with him, having personalized training sessions with him, heck, even talking to him as an equal. Yoda has been shown to see him as a potentially huge asset to the Order but also that of potential problems. The thematic intent is that Yoda has always been cautious about Anakin and has remained personally, a bit detached from him

Both in part due to his personality and because of the circumstances surrounding his coming to the Jedi, but Anakin never was completely made at home among them. Yoda in particular has been shown as the embodiment of all that

He has had that kind of relationship with Jinn, Mace, Obi Wan etc. but he has never been shown to have that with Anakin. Dooku was also a special case. You may recall that his connection to the force was "enigmatic" to Yoda, and it may have been because someone like that with that potential may not have come to the Jedi Order for a long time. Based on that, Yoda giving him special attention is easy to think. By TPM, Yoda has seen Mace, Obi Wan, and even Qui Gon( to an extent) as highly powerful Jedi with high potential. You have evidence that he gave special attention to each of them but none of their relations would be as close as Yoda and Dooku simply because Dooku was the first. Because an "enigma" once revealed, isn't an enigma

Sourcebooks have even claimed the Yoda, Dooku, Qui Gon, Obi Wan, Anakin line as a legit lineage, comparing that with the late Banite lineage but obviously this one's not based on potential alone( that is just cited as the Jedi lineage). So the rivalry mostly exists in Dooku's head but Anakin simply sees him as the guy that took his hand and the leader of the movement that put the galaxy in turmoil

In contrast, the Maul vs Obi Wan rivalry seems more like the Jedi apprentice vs the Sith apprentice rivalry. The fact that duel of the fates plays when Obi Wan battles Maul, Obi Wan being the first Jedi in a thousand years to beat a Sith Lord, "unveiling destiny" to Obi Wan, and that the duel plays next when Yoda battles Sidious, the ultimate Jedi Master vs the Ultimate Sith Master

To that, Maul vs Obi Wan is like the Jedi apprentice vs the Sith apprentice, but the rivalry becomes much more than that, it becomes personal. That is what it is to Dooku and Anakin, but to them it is merely personal. The actual theme that you have posted doesn't actually exist because, Anakin has not been Yoda's favorite at any point and because the Jedi Order itself has seen a couple of stars like Dooku, besides Anakin. The actual grand theme becomes shallow because then, it is about what they think, not about the truth. That becomes something that is personal only

As stated, many books have the Yoda, Dooku, Qui Gon, Obi Wan and Anakin as the Jedi lineage and have compared that side by side to the Sith lineage. Given that, the thematic implication to the Obi Wan vs Maul duel is the encountering of the two Orders by their apprentices and they represent the future of their Orders actually. TPM symbolizes the Jedi vs Sith clash via the proteges of the Jedi and Sith, and ROTS symbolizes the completion by having the actual Jedi and Sith clash

TPM-The battle between light and dark gets going, by having the Jedi vs Sith proteges clash

That is the commencement

ROTS-The battle concludes by having the Ultimate Jedi vs Ultimate Sith battle

That becomes the end

The music may be a coincidence, but I think the Obi Wan vs Maul theme is much more poetic, simply because that actually embodies both the personal and the grand scheme and has more depth to it than the Dooku vs Anakin theme
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Anakin Skywalker vs Count Dooku or Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Maul - Which rivalry is more interesting? Empty Re: Anakin Skywalker vs Count Dooku or Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Maul - Which rivalry is more interesting?

on March 1st 2020, 2:35 pm
@LOTL Interesting. You'd say Yoda had a much closer relationship with Dooku than Mace?
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Anakin Skywalker vs Count Dooku or Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Maul - Which rivalry is more interesting? Empty Re: Anakin Skywalker vs Count Dooku or Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Maul - Which rivalry is more interesting?

on March 1st 2020, 2:57 pm
@BoD wrote:@LOTL Interesting. You'd say Yoda had a much closer relationship with Dooku than Mace?

All evidence seems to indicate that

Actually that may be even to Qui Gon and Obi Wan
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Anakin Skywalker vs Count Dooku or Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Maul - Which rivalry is more interesting? Empty Re: Anakin Skywalker vs Count Dooku or Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Maul - Which rivalry is more interesting?

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