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DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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Darth Bane vs Darth Malak - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Bane vs Darth Malak

February 22nd 2020, 7:27 pm
@Corvinus: Glad we're in agreement over Drew and Fact File, which were my main contentions. 

IG has requested that I let him debate with you over the other feats and evidence, but I'll continue to watch the thread and chime in if needed.
Corvinus
Corvinus

Darth Bane vs Darth Malak - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Bane vs Darth Malak

February 22nd 2020, 7:35 pm
@DarthAnt66 Cool, can you let him know I sometimes don't log in for days at a time so not to take it as a concession if I don't reply straightaway.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Darth Bane vs Darth Malak - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Bane vs Darth Malak

February 22nd 2020, 7:41 pm
@DarthAnt66

i didnt thoroughly read all of ur replies and comments, but Drew saying what he said does indeed imply that if u change their positions in time and space, they would be comparable. Him saying "both are too powerful" (not the exact quote) very obviously implies that he puts them close in power.
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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Darth Bane vs Darth Malak - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Bane vs Darth Malak

February 22nd 2020, 7:47 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd:

The only condition Drew is outlining is that both are among the most powerful Force users in history.

That applies to Revan, Malgus, Bane, Plagueis, Palpatine, Yoda, Anakin, Luke, Krayt, Fisto, Ventress, Savage, Nomi, Cade, Odan, etc.

He names specifically Revan and Bane because those are the two characters he's written for.

He names them because he's contrasting the experience writing about powerful Force users for writing about a non-Force user.

"For starters, Theron isn’t a Jedi; he’s not even Force sensitive. He’s a highly trained and deadly special agent, but unlike Revan or Bane, he isn’t one of the most powerful individuals in the universe. That means Theron has to rely on his wits and a little bit of hi-tech equipment to even the odds when he goes up against a Sith, which brings a whole different perspective."

Full quote for context, if that helps. ^

Just because both are 'too powerful,' as you put it, doesn't mean they're peers. That doesn't really follow.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Darth Bane vs Darth Malak - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Bane vs Darth Malak

February 22nd 2020, 7:58 pm
@DarthAnt66

I read it fully and more thoroughly now. Doesnt exactly goes against the idea that he thinks that both are within the same league.
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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Darth Bane vs Darth Malak - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Bane vs Darth Malak

February 22nd 2020, 8:02 pm
How would you reckon Drew would word the quote if, rather than writing about Bane and Revan, he wrote about Bane and Palpatine?
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Darth Bane vs Darth Malak - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Bane vs Darth Malak

February 22nd 2020, 8:08 pm
DarthAnt66 wrote:How would you reckon Drew would word the quote if, rather than writing about Bane and Revan, he wrote about Bane and Palpatine?
He didnt say that, which actually makes a big diff in this case, but if he did in fact say that, to me, it seems that he held them both in high, but close regard.
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Darth Bane vs Darth Malak - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Bane vs Darth Malak

February 23rd 2020, 3:35 am
CuckedCurry wrote:Bane smacks
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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Darth Bane vs Darth Malak - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Bane vs Darth Malak

February 23rd 2020, 5:11 am
@DarthAnt66 Citation needed for the publishers saying it was intended to be Canon. Because last time I saw the publishers' clarification on it, it was very clearly intended to be Legends.

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Master Azronger
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Darth Bane vs Darth Malak - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Bane vs Darth Malak

February 23rd 2020, 5:24 am
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
IG wrote:Yes, cite evidence for a well known fact while in your phone, outstanding move. Honestly, you realize that “common knowledge” requires no citation, right?

This is a very regressive attitude to have and shows an extreme amount of arrogance and vanity. Just because you perceive it to be "common knowledge" doesn't mean literally everyone is privy to that specific factoid, especially new members or the people who just read these debates and don't comment. Would you have everybody take people on their word without requesting for evidence when it comes to matters of "common knowledge"? I'm sure I could recall several instances in the community's history when something has been passed off as fact but when one person finally decides to do some verification, the "common knowledge" in question has either turned out to not exist or has been completely misinterpreted the entire time because nobody prior had bothered to check the actual source material. There is no reason that I can think of to not cite your sources when requested.

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IG
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Darth Bane vs Darth Malak - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Bane vs Darth Malak

February 23rd 2020, 8:54 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Corvinus wrote:This actually puts Bane over Vitiate so rather than being a peer, Revan becomes an inferior of Bane.

We won't just stick with that quote though, we should then move onto feats. I'll get one thing out of the way immediately, Revan's battle precognition won't do him any good here, as Bane has held his ground against the Echani Jedi Master Raskta Lsu, who had help:

Given Ant's shown you the scan for the Fact File being IU, I think we can just throw the idea that Bane > Vitiate away at this point. In your point here, you've said that because Raskta Lsu is an Echani, her precog is on par with that of Yusanis. That makes no sense, as Yusanis is "the greatest" of Echani heroes, possesses minutes in advance precog, etc. Lsu hasn't shown precog on that scale, and you've provided no evidence for why she does have it, other than an assumption that all Echani possess Yusanis level precog. It's like saying that Luke Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi were both human Jedi Masters, so their precog is equivalent. It just doesn't make sense here. The accolades you've provided for Lsu make her seem impressive, but they're given to all no-name random masters. Vrook and Zez Kai Ell are described as "lightsaber virtuosos", and they, along with Master Kavar are all masters of the Ataru, Juyo, and Shien forms (and logically other ones too), evidenced by their ability to teach Meetra Surik these forms in-game. Do these accolades make them extraordinarily impressive on their own? No, of course not. When we can use accolades to scale a character above others, that's really what makes them impressive. It's more impressive to be better than notable individuals than a bunch of no-name fodder.

With that out of the way, let's segway on over to your next point:


Corvinus wrote:With Revan's vaunted battle precognition out of the equation we move onto something that has incapacitated Revan time and again, Force Lightning. With the first quote I provided we can say that Bane's Force Lightning is more powerful than Vitiate's, and indeed Bane has some of the best Force Lightning feats in the mythos:

Here you claim that Revan is incapacitated "time and again" by lightning, yet we see that happen only once, with Vitiate. To give you some context, Vitiate is at the center of an immense nexus, and he charges his lightning for longer than Revan charges his defense. Vitiate's lightning is "infinitely more powerful" than lightning that ashes a Meetra++ being, and Revan negates 99% of his attack. The attack goes from an attack that should ash Revan to causing 3rd degree burns... and Revan recovers and stands up, ready to fight in a matter of seconds. 



If you want to take a look at lightning stuff for Revan, then look no further than his casual ashing of Darth Nyriss, a being that speedblitzes both Scourge and Meetra Surik, both of whom share rough parity. Revan absorbs and reflects Nyriss' lightning back at her, and The Essential Reader's Companion describes it saying that, "Revan's raw power in the Force bends Nyriss' Sith lightning back at her, utterly destroying the Sith Lord". Given Revan is able to instantaneously summon enough power to absorb and reflect Nyriss' lightning, it stands to reason that he should be able to do the same with his own lightning, as force abilities are directly proportional.  Meaning Revan's force energy gathered in a split-second is enough to tear through Nyriss' defenses and vaporize her. Nyriss is able to speedblitz Meetra and Scourge, as I've already mentioned, so let me cite the fight here:





Revan wrote:
She raised her free hand above her head and fired off another burst of lightning. Both Scourge and Meetra threw themselves clear of the deadly electrical bolt, but in doing so they gave Nyriss the early advantage.

Before they could recover, she leapt at them. Despite her withered appearance, she moved with the all the speed and ferocity of a dark side warrior in her prime. She landed right between her two adversaries, her blade flashing back and forth in a series of slashes and cuts that immediately threw her two opponents on the defensive.
Scourge barely managed to parry the first wave of her assault, unable to even think about countering with an attack of his own. Another quick thrust forced him off balance and he staggered backward.
Nyriss seized on the opportunity to focus all her efforts on breaking through Meetra’s defenses. The Jedi was clearly overmatched; though she managed to hold her ground, she was forced down to one knee.
In the awkward position her right flank was exposed, and Nyriss brought her blade in to deliver a crippling cut. At the same time, Scourge lashed out with the Force, catching Nyriss flush in the center of her chest.
An ordinary foe would have been thrown clear across the room, but Nyriss instinctively threw up a Force barrier to protect herself, absorbing and redirecting the brunt of the impact. Even so, Scourge’s attack knocked her off balance just enough to send her lightsaber wide of the mark, giving Meetra the opportunity she needed to scramble away to safety.
Scourge rushed forward, hoping to drive Nyriss back into a corner, but she met his charge with an invisible wave of rippling energy. It picked Scourge up and tossed him head-over-heels, sending him crashing to the wall.
Dazed, he looked up just in time to see another bolt of violet lightning catch Meetra in the chest. Like Nyriss, she threw up a barrier to save herself from the worst of it, but she was still knocked from her feet.
'Did you think I would be as easy to defeat as Xedrix?' Nyriss shouted, raising her lightsaber triumphantly above her head.
The air around her began to crackle and grow hot as she gathered herself for the killing blow. Scourge felt the energy building inside her, and he knew he would be powerless to stop it. Nyriss was too powerful; her command of the dark side was too strong.
'Gaze upon me and see your doom!” she declared. “I am Darth Nyriss, Lord of the Sith. I am the conqueror of Drezzi, the destroyer of Melldia, and a member of the Dark Council!'

Scourge braced himself for the end."

Meetra at this point has already defeated Traya at the center of a massive DS Nexus, and Traya oneshots Masters Vrook Lamar, Kavar, and Zez Kai-Ell, each of whom are logically far beyond an average Jedi Knight. KOTOR is described as the prime of the Jedi, meaning the average KOTOR Knight is > the Average PT Knight:

Darth Bane vs Darth Malak - Page 3 3969946-1972971694-yay10


Given that this quote specifically states "even more so than in the Clone Wars", it stands to reason that the PT is the second best era for the Jedi, and therefore Bane's time can only be third best, if not far lower. I doubt there's reason to say that Bane's lightning feats are beyond even those of Nyriss, let alone a power like Revan, or like Vitiate.



The lightning feats you've provided for Bane are essentially frying non-force sensitives and a few Jedi. The only one that's somewhat impressive is staggering Zannah, but that too isn't as impressive as the lightning Revan scales off of, as I've already shown. 



Corvinus wrote:As already evidenced by the Raskta quotes, I don't see Revan beating Bane in a lightsaber duel, and as evidenced by the Force Lightning quotes and Revan getting taken out by lesser users of Force Lightning, the case is made that Bane can do the same.

All this actually indicates Bane's superiority over Revan in fact.


None of this indicates Bane's superiority over Revan, to be blunt. Raskta's quotes, as I've already shown are meaningless because she has superiority over no notable saber wielders. You can't compare technical skill cross-eras, it's literally impossible, and Revan's raw power, as I've shown, is already in excess of Bane's. Given that in a fight, it's usually the force that makes the difference, there's no reason that Bane defeats Revan in single combat with a saber, nor with the force.




I've already shown that Bane is not inferior to Revan in his prime, nor is he a peer of Revan in his prime. To contrast, he's a definite inferior of Revan when Revan's vastly pre-prime.
AncientPower
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Darth Bane vs Darth Malak - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Bane vs Darth Malak

February 23rd 2020, 9:04 am
IG wrote:Vitiate's lightning is "infinitely more powerful" than lightning that ashes a Meetra++ being, and Revan negates 99% of his attack.

If you want to take a look at lightning stuff for Revan, then look no further than his casual ashing of Darth Nyriss, a being that speedblitzes both Scourge and Meetra Surik, both of whom share rough parity. Revan absorbs and reflects Nyriss' lightning back at her, and The Essential Reader's Companion describes it saying that, "Revan's raw power in the Force bends Nyriss' Sith lightning back at her, utterly destroying the Sith Lord". Given Revan is able to instantaneously summon enough power to absorb and reflect Nyriss' lightning, it stands to reason that he should be able to do the same with his own lightning, as force abilities are directly proportional.  Meaning Revan's force energy gathered in a split-second is enough to tear through Nyriss' defenses and vaporize her. Nyriss is able to speedblitz Meetra and Scourge, as I've already mentioned, so let me cite the fight here.

All of this horse manure is debunked here:

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t2450-the-truth-meetra-surik-vs-darth-nyriss
IG
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Darth Bane vs Darth Malak - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Bane vs Darth Malak

February 23rd 2020, 9:14 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Very cool. Great contribution AP, thanks!
AncientPower
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Darth Bane vs Darth Malak - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Bane vs Darth Malak

February 23rd 2020, 9:28 am
Shameless plugging? Yes. Am I ashamed? No.
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Darth Bane vs Darth Malak - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Bane vs Darth Malak

February 23rd 2020, 2:58 pm
nice to see malak wank is still getting strong 


bane mid diffs him
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