Darth Bane vs Darth Malak

@IG Can you tag me in future rather than me having to keep checking the thread to see if you've replied?

Anyway, onto why Bane is comparable to prime Revan. First we'll use this quote:

The Official Star Wars Fact File Part 22 wrote:Darth Bane had gained more knowledge and mastery of Sith techniques and power than anyone who had come before him. He used that knowledge and skill to change the Sith Order forever.

This actually puts Bane over Vitiate so rather than being a peer, Revan becomes an inferior of Bane.

We won't just stick with that quote though, we should then move onto feats. I'll get one thing out of the way immediately, Revan's battle precognition won't do him any good here, as Bane has held his ground against the Echani Jedi Master Raskta Lsu, who had help:

Darth Bane: Rule of Two wrote:The young Jedi marveled at the speed and savagery of Raskta's blades. And while Johun's own clumsy efforts had actually seemed to impede Sarro when they fought side by side, Raskta appeared to thrive off his presence. When he went high, she went low. If he came from the left, she came from the right. It was partly a function of her choice of weapon: individually each of her lightsabers was more precise and accurate than Sarro's giant double blades. But it was more than that. Her reactions were so fast, her combat instincts so pure, that she was able to sense and anticipate what he was going to do even as it happened, then use his attacks to her own advantage.


On her opposite side Farfalla struck with clean, elegant blows, his form perfect as he harried Bane's right flank. Yet though they were able to hold their ground, they couldn't drive him back or defeat him.

As for why this matters, Raskta has some of the following feats and accolades to her name:

Named in honor of the legendary Echani warrior Raskta Fenni, acclaimed by many to be the greatest duelist of her time, Master Raskta had spent her life honing her martial skills so that she could one day equal, and even surpass, her namesake.

Raskta's mastery of her blades was unparalleled.

Wielding a blue-bladed lightsaber in each hand, and shunning any form of armor, she was a terrifying figure to behold on the battlefield. Johun vividly remembered her carving great swaths of destruction through the heart of the enemy ranks, leaving a litter of bodies in her wake.

It was said that, by the end of the war, as many Sith Lords had fallen under her twin blades as had been killed by the thought bomb.

With Revan's vaunted battle precognition out of the equation we move onto something that has incapacitated Revan time and again, Force Lightning. With the first quote I provided we can say that Bane's Force Lightning is more powerful than Vitiate's, and indeed Bane has some of the best Force Lightning feats in the mythos:

Clenching the fingers of his left hand tight against his open palm, Bane wheeled toward the two men on his right and thrust his fist up into the air. A dozen forks of blue lightning arced out from above his head to envelop the screaming soldiers, cooking them alive. Shrieking in agony, they danced and twitched like marionettes on electric strings for several seconds before their smoking husks collapsed on the ground.

Bane didn't take the time to revel in the fear of his fallen enemies. Before they even hit the ground he'd turned his attention to the third opponent, unleashing a storm of Sith lightning that reduced the riders to ash and the drexl into a hunk of charred and smoking flesh that dropped from the sky.

Farfalla saw the Sith Lord turn toward him, sensing the intervention that had saved Raskta's life. Bane unleashed a barrage of Sith lightning, gathering and releasing his power at the speed of thought. The Jedi threw up a Force barrier to shield himself, but the electricity tore right through it and arced toward him. Then suddenly Raskta was there to save his life, repaying a debt that was only a few seconds old as she threw herself in front of him.

Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil wrote:As she moved in for the kill another burst of lightning came toward her. She caught it with her lightsaber, but the impact drove her backward a step, giving Bane just enough room to duck down beneath her coup de grace and scramble clear of the wall.

Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil wrote:She was less than a meter away, her blade already slashing in for the killing blow, when she felt all the hair on the back of her neck rise. A shimmering purple cocoon of dark side energy enveloped Bane, a fragile shell holding back a storm of pure power.

She tried to pull back but it was too late. As her blade bit into the cocoon the energy was released in a sudden burst that sent both of them flying backward. Bane slammed hard into the wall against his back and crumpled to the ground. Zannah was tossed ten meters farther, landing hard on the stone floor.

As already evidenced by the Raskta quotes, I don't see Revan beating Bane in a lightsaber duel, and as evidenced by the Force Lightning quotes and Revan getting taken out by lesser users of Force Lightning, the case is made that Bane can do the same.

All this actually indicates Bane's superiority over Revan in fact.

@DarthAnt66 I am referring to this, said in reference to Theron Shan:

Drew Karpyshyn wrote:Unlike Revan or Bane, he isn’t one of the most powerful individuals in the universe.

@Corvinus You do realize fact files are IU published by New Republic historians, right? And I don’t see why beating a fodder master is really that impressive before some of a Revan’s feats. Lsu has a bunch of accolades given to every minor master to ever live. It’s cute that you think Bane beating fodder is better than Revan’s precog that allowed him to predict battles minutes in advance (well it was arguably > Yusanis, who could do so, so yeah).

@Corvinus: Where does that quote say they're remotely peers?

Also, that Fact Files quote is a Canon-intended source per its publishers/writers.

@IG So if it doesn't help your argument, it doesn't count. Got it.


@DarthAnt66 That he specifically mentions the two together is a clear indication he considers them peers, and he wouldn't be talking about Darth Revan in reference to Theron Shan.

I said after the quote I wasn't using just that, and then provided feats to explain how I came to my conclusion.

@Corvinus

Concession Accepted

@Corvinus: ??? The fact he says they're among the most powerful Force users in the galaxy doesn't indicate parity. Both Palpatine and Obi-Wan fall under that umbrella.

Is every Force user that's among the most powerful beings in the universe on par? Would you be willing to put Revan with Sidious, then?

@IG Thanks for tagging me, and it was you who conceded by not providing any canonical evidence to refute what I posted lol.


@DarthAnt66 Did Drew mention them in that quote? No, so why are you bringing them up?

@Corvinus:

Because the quote is pointing out both Bane and Revan are "one of the most powerful individuals in the universe."

That's the extent of the comparison--of the trillions of beings in the galaxy's history, both Bane and Revan are amongst the strongest.

That's true for almost anyone we discuss, though. We could say that simultaneously for Kit Fisto and Abeloth. Explain to me how pointing out both Bane and Revan are powerful Force users implicitly implies they're on par, and why then that comparison can't also be extended to any two random powerful Force users.

@Corvinus Yes, cite evidence for a well known fact while in your phone, outstanding move. Honestly, you realize that “common knowledge” requires no citation, right?

And ant’s saying that blanket statements about two people being powerful don’t make them peers. One could say “Sors isn’t as powerful as Plo Koon or Yoda” without any implication that Koon is near Yoda lol.

@DarthAnt66 Why are you contending this? Drew didn't name drop a handful of characters, he said only two names. As they are both among the most powerful and he doesn't name more powerful characters, it can be inferred he considers these specific two to be peers.

@IG I actually have no idea what you are saying in the first line. The fact of the matter is you asked for evidence and I provided it. You did not use any evidence to refute it. Therefore if anyone conceded, it was you.

@Corvinus Anything without a billion citations isn’t irrelevant and a concession. I’ll post the necessary quotes and stuff later if you require, but as of now, you’ve shown no understanding of basic concepts and arguments. Thank you for conceding btw.

Citation needed for common knowledge requiring no citation

ISV, that’s common knowledge and therefore doesn’t require a citation.

@IG Do you not understand how debates work? "I don't need to provide evidence, I win concession accepted lol" is not an accepted form of debating.

@Corvinus I’ll respond in a bit, don’t take this as a concession.

Citation needed for ”an accepted form of debating”

@Corvinus: 

Why am I contesting this? Because you're so obviously wrong, lol. 

Drew names specifically Bane and Revan because they're his two powerful Force user protagonists he's written about. With "Unlike Revan or Bane, he isn’t one of the most powerful individuals in the universe," he's contrasting his previous characters (both of which were among "the most powerful individuals in the universe") with his new, non-Force sensitive protagonist. Drew then explains how it was unique writing about Theron: "That means Theron has to rely on his wits and a little bit of hi-tech equipment to even the odds when he goes up against a Sith, which brings a whole different perspective." 

It wouldn't make any sense for Drew to name-drop Kit Fisto or Palpatine in this context. He never wrote them. He wrote Bane and Revan. That doesn't mean him noting that Bane and Revan are among "the most powerful individuals in the universe" means they are also comparably powerful. It just means they're among "the most powerful individuals in the universe," which we all already agree on. Though, so is both Kit Fisto and Palpatine. The quote alone doesn't comment on their relativity to one-another.

@IG

@DarthAnt66 What I mean is why are you still bringing up the Drew comment when we've moved passed that to actually having a debate with feats and evidence.

@Corvinus: Do you concede/agree with me on Drew's comment, then?

@DarthAnt66 Sure. I brought it up, was told it's not something that can generally be used so came back with feats and evidence.

@Corvinus: We can definitely move to discuss that too, but I want us first fully on the same page with that Drew quote.

Do you see why/agree that Drew contrasting his previous characters--both of whom are among the most powerful Force users in the galaxy--with a non-Force sensitive protagonist doesn't comment on the comparability between said previous characters? 

That's important for me to fully move on from because I don't want an underlying belief that Drew holds the two as comparable throughout the rest of our discussion.

As for the Bane > Revan quote you posted, it's written by a source of New Republic historians based on the limited data available to them.



Ergo, the quote can't be taken as canon. It's based on New Republic guess-work, scavenging through leftover records after the Empire destroyed many. And, even before the Empire, the PT-era Jedi and Sith still didn't know much of Revan or Vitiate--being unsure what happened to him after he killed Malak in KOTOR.

((Also, OOU, the publisher stated the source was meant to be Canon only and not meant to include Vitiate of Revan.))

@DarthAnt66 Yes, I agree with you. Drew's comments are completely irrelevant to this debate.

Thank you as well for providing further information on the Fact File, but as I said in the post the quote is not the basis for my argument. Just an interesting statement.

From this point onwards it will be feats and evidence, which I hope my opponent (whether that's you or IG) will respond with in kind to argue and vice versa.