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UnuThul, Darth Caedus, Darish Vol vs Valkorion, Vaylin, Arcann - Page 2 Empty Re: UnuThul, Darth Caedus, Darish Vol vs Valkorion, Vaylin, Arcann

on May 13th 2020, 9:32 am
[size=33]Watch this footage:[/size]

...Yes? I don't know what you expect me to take from that. The Knights of Zakuul > the average Jedi or Sith, beings that SoR HoT has carved through en masse. He's likewise done the same with the Knights. Vaylin being >>> them is at best a SoR HoT+ level feat.



Only Vaylin is shown to dominate/subjugate entire contingents of the Knights of Zakuul out in the open.

And? We know that the likes of the HoT have done the same. The cutscene above likewise supports this:



I faced plenty of warriors from Zakuul. They fell, the same as everyone else.






No Jedi and/or Sith have matching feats to his/her name in the lore.

Actually, they do. The HoT (and the Outlander), Revan, Malgus and Arcann all either have those feats or scale above characters who have.


You're barking up the wrong tree by trying to use the Knights to scale Vaylin. Focus instead on her one-shotting Arcann and Senya, being > ch.8 Outlander, and destroying the Sanitarium from the orbit of a void in the Force.


Last edited by BoD on May 13th 2020, 11:47 am; edited 1 time in total
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

UnuThul, Darth Caedus, Darish Vol vs Valkorion, Vaylin, Arcann - Page 2 Empty Re: UnuThul, Darth Caedus, Darish Vol vs Valkorion, Vaylin, Arcann

on May 13th 2020, 10:02 am
@BoD wrote:
The blog is outdated.

UnuThul, Darth Caedus, Darish Vol vs Valkorion, Vaylin, Arcann - Page 2 Scree126

See the last quote for reference.

-


Although none of it was written in stone, Boyd presented the Zildrog and Vitiate relationship as one more like a priest and a ritual knife. Vitiate was the man, and Zildrog was the instrument used to wipe out the planet Nathema. However, when it came to Ziost, Vitiate did not require Zildrog, but he did require preset rituals and possibly machinery set up on Ziost in order to destroy that planet. But the Sith Emperor would never admit to it.


Not true. He's done it once (the Outlander, Vaylin and Arcann), all of whom are <(<) Unuthul.

Valkorion was shielding himself. This is a still image of the shield:

UnuThul, Darth Caedus, Darish Vol vs Valkorion, Vaylin, Arcann - Page 2 Scree127

UnuThul, Darth Caedus, Darish Vol vs Valkorion, Vaylin, Arcann - Page 2 Scree128

The Outlander is already moving as the wave hits whereas Valkorion is fine until the barrier dissipates and he disappears, hence why he barely moves and doesn't dissipate when the others are still thrown backwards.
UnuThul, Darth Caedus, Darish Vol vs Valkorion, Vaylin, Arcann - Page 2 Scree129

The shield is in front of Valkorion relative to Vaylin (who was diagonally across from him). Note that the Outlander here is being carried away by the initial wave that hasn't reached Arcann yet, further indicating that Valk's barrier wasn't protecting the Outlander.

Looks more to be an application of Force Maelstrom than a storm.

Those statements aren't conclusive; all I see is a conversation between some members about how they perceive developments on Ziost in personal capacity, and Charles Boyd simply respected those statements.

The bottom statement is from this article: https://massivelyop.com/2018/06/21/hyperspace-beacon-future-plot-points-for-swtor-and-other-unanswered-lore-questions/

That is not canon information but an 'interpretation' of developments on Ziost.

Valkorion invaded Ziost to recover his strength, and he devastated this world with his recovered power in the end. Official SWTOR disclosures clearly suggest that Valkorion was using his powers to take over the minds of countless beings on the planet (slowly but surely) and was utilizing them for violent ends so that he could feed on their deaths to recover his strength.

It is shameful to see that some people are trying to feed/influence Charles Boyd with their own interpretations which aren't substantiated in the lore. Where are the cut-scenes of a ritual and machinery in use on Ziost prior to its devastation?

My blog draw information from official SWTOR revelations (lore and otherwise). You are welcome to share and discuss my blog with Charles Boyd in personal capacity, and let me know his thoughts in relation, but this is beneath me. I would leave the poor guy alone.

The lore goes out of its way to suggest that Valkorion continued to grow stronger over time. So what is the fuss in all this?

---

Wait what?

1. Valkorion one-shotted an entire (rebellious) Dark Council once.
2. Valkorion was strong enough to take on and crush the TRIO of Revan, Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge in a fight.
3. Valkorion defeated a Jedi strike team encompassing 3 powerful Jedi Masters and Hero of Tython in yet another confrontation.
4. Valkorion destroyed an entire contingent of the Knights of Zakuul with a wave of dark side energy when the Outlander and his allies were on the brink of being overwhelmed by such force.

In each case, those odds would be sufficient to overcome a lone Jedi and/or Sith no matter how strong.

---

UnuThul is absolutely overrated. He issued a call across the Galaxy which tempted some Force-users to respond to it but many resisted it successfully as well. UnuThul's telepathy is stated to be unrefined by the way. UnuThul also proved no match for Luke Skywalker in a fight (Lord Nyax was relatively much more formidable opponent in comparison).

---

Valkorion doesn't have to support the Outlander with a gesture from a distance while bind to the latter's mind (ACTIVE); Valkorion shielded the Outlander, and even his allies, from harmful effects of the Nathema for instance (PASSIVE). It is logical for Valkorion to enable the Outlander to defeat Vaylin given how much he feared her potential to grow stronger over time and eventually surpass him one day (PASSIVE).

---

Force Storm (Wormhole) is an extrapolation of the Force Maelstrom application as per Palpatine.


Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on May 13th 2020, 11:17 am; edited 3 times in total
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

UnuThul, Darth Caedus, Darish Vol vs Valkorion, Vaylin, Arcann - Page 2 Empty Re: UnuThul, Darth Caedus, Darish Vol vs Valkorion, Vaylin, Arcann

on May 13th 2020, 10:40 am
@BoD wrote:
[size=33]Watch this footage:[/size]

...Yes? I don't know what you expect me to take from that. The Knights of Zakuul > the average Jedi or Sith, beings that SoR HoT has carved through en masse. He's likewise done the same with the Knights. Vaylin being >>> them is at best a SoR HoT+ level feat.



[size=33]Only Vaylin is shown to dominate/subjugate entire contingents of the Knights of Zakuul out in the open.[/size]

And? We know that the likes of the HoT have done the same. The cutscene above likewise supports this:




I faced plenty of warriors from Zakuul. They fell, the same as everyone else.






[size=33]No Jedi and/or Sith have matching feats to his/her name in the lore.[/size]

Actually, they do. The HoT (and the Outlander), Revan, Malgus and Arcann all either have those feats or scale above characters who have.



You're barking up the wrong tree by trying to use the Knights to scale Vaylin. Focus instead on her one-shotting Arcann and Senya, being > ch.8 Outlander, and destroying the Sanitarium from the orbit of a void in the Force. 

It is important to understand the LORE, and cut-scene battles are important considerations in a discussion because they are not gameplay mechanics and do not mislead. In the game, you walk over sand all day and still look shiny (so WE should take gameplay mechanics at face value?).

While the strongest Jedi and/or Sith of the time have significant accomplishments up their sleeve when up against conventional forces of the Empire and/or the Republic (much like Revan), these accomplishments are almost irrelevant when up against heavily-armed contingents of the Knights of Zakuul:



Assuming that the Outlander is one of those champions, a contingent of the Knights of Zakuul was about to overwhelm him and his allies in an open-ended confrontation:



Valkorion suddenly intervened and offered his support, and leveled the entire contingent with a single blast of power afterwards (ACTIVE).

That is the intended impression given in the LORE at official capacity. No matter how strong and capable the Outlander was/is in personal capacity (he might have collapsed buildings and ragdolled Sith Lords for the sake of argument), and no matter how many odds he has dealt with before, a well-armed contingent of the Knights of Zakuul is too much of a force for him and his allies in an open-ended confrontation.

The Eternal Empire conquered the galaxy, right? They had to win battles on the ground no matter what.

Therefore, Vaylin crushing a well-armed contingent of the Knights of Zakuul in an open-ended confrontation [all by herself] is definitely a big deal:

With the rising flames, Senya finally witnessed the true carnage Vaylin had unleashed on the camp: dozens of Knights – bodies mutilated and mangledhad been tossed haphazardly amongst the scattered wreckage of ships and shuttles torn asunder. The full breadth of the slaughter sent a chill down her back; grim evidence of the horrors her daughter was capable of.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Knights of the Eternal Throne: A Mother's Hope)

That is supposed to be impossible task for a lone Jedi and/or Sith; far more difficult task than overwhelming conventional forces of the Empire and/or the Republic in open-ended confrontations like in the case of Revan and TOR-age champions. That is like Vaylin crushing dozens of powerful Jedi with all the heavy gear in the mix, and merely burping afterwards. I do not recall a lone Jedi and/or Sith overwhelming so many Force-users in a fight like that in a game or in a novel.

Revan is stated to be an army-buster, right? Well, 4 x Basilisk war droids were sufficient to stop him in his tracks and kill him (Revan needed allies in this situation to achieve breakthrough). Being an army-buster does not suggest that a Force-user can literally SOLO an army with mere gestures - lot of plot elements are involved in the mix.

A powerful Force wave of Darth Malgus killed everybody in the vicinity but merely lurched a transport nearby (this guy send Aryn Leener packing across the hall with a blast of power in a fight otherwise who have very impressive telekinetic showings of her own). Compare this to raw power of Vaylin who dismantled ships and shuttles like tissue paper in a battle with Knights of Zakuul; Darth Malgus is openly/officially recognized as one of the strongest Sith to have [ever] existed, yet, he doesn't hold a candle to Vaylin in strength. So...
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UnuThul, Darth Caedus, Darish Vol vs Valkorion, Vaylin, Arcann - Page 2 Empty Re: UnuThul, Darth Caedus, Darish Vol vs Valkorion, Vaylin, Arcann

on May 13th 2020, 11:46 am

Those statements aren't conclusive; all I see is a conversation between some members about how they perceive developments on Ziost in personal capacity, and Charles Boyd simply respected those statements.

The three were asking Charles to clarify Zildrog's role in Nathema and Ziost. Charles' response was "Y'all have it pretty much sorted here", confirming that they're more or less right.


1. Valkorion one-shotted an entire (rebellious) Dark Council once.

First, he "one-shotted" nine of the twelve. Second, we have no context for how it happened. Having summoned them to him, he was prepared and they were not, indicating either A) he had a ritual prepared, or B) he took advantage of their surprise.


2. Valkorion was strong enough to take on and crush the TRIO of Revan, Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge in a fight.

A) You've yet to show why this is at all significant or why Unuthul or even Caedus and Vol couldn't also crush or beat the trio. Note that it was stated the trio might be able to beat novel Vitiate:


He was far more powerful now, but was he a match for the Emperor? Alone, probably not. With the combined strength of Meetra, Scourge, and even T3, however, he believed they stood a real chance of victory.


-


Sensing hesitation and uncertainty in the Emperor as he tried to evaluate the strength and weaknesses of his new foe, Scourge rushed forward to join Meetra and Revan.

-

wasteland. He saw both Revan’s triumph and defeat in the throne room; he saw variations of his own life and death played out over and over in every conceivable way, shape, and form.

While he was stronger, it was possible for the trio to beat him at least some of the time.


3. Valkorion defeated a Jedi strike team encompassing 3 powerful Jedi Masters and Hero of Tython in yet another confrontation.

Which included a Jedi whose skills and power had begun to decline years before SWTOR Act 2:


Records indicate Warren was critically injured over a dozen times in battles from Alderaan to Yavin Four. Although he survived these near-deaths without need of cybernetic replacement parts, Warren's connection to the Force began to diminish. When the Republic signed the Treaty of Coruscant, Warren dedicated himself wholeheartedly to peace. He gave up his rank as Jedi Knight and became a Padawan to Master Tol Braga.

And Leeha Narezz, who lacks any feats of note.

The only noteworthy characters were Act 2 HoT (who was ridiculously pre-prime) and Tol Braga. Nothing suggests that Unuthul wouldn't smack these two.



4. Valkorion destroyed an entire contingent of the Knights of Zakuul with a wave of dark side energy when the Outlander and his allies were on the brink of being overwhelmed by such force.

And why is this impressive? The Outlander was still heavily weakened and the trio had been fighting endless waves and were likely exhausted. 



UnuThul is absolutely overrated. He issued a call across the Galaxy which tempted some Force-users to respond to it but many resisted it successfully as well.

It's the fact that he touched those Force users on a galactic scale which is impressive.



UnuThul's telepathy is stated to be unrefined by the way.

So basically an Unuthul without further refinement already has TP feats such as reaching across the galaxy. Even more impressive. 



UnuThul also proved no match for Luke Skywalker in a fight (Lord Nyax was relatively much more formidable opponent in comparison).

I'd say throwing Luke around with the Force in their first fight, forcing Luke to cut loose to beat him and then contending with him in TP makes saying he was "no match" just a little bit of an attempt at lowballing. By this logic, Vitiate/Valkorion wasn't able to beat the Outlander in a TP fight thrice.


Valkorion doesn't have to support the Outlander with a gesture from a distance while bind to the latter's mind (ACTIVE); Valkorion shielded the Outlander, and even his allies, from harmful effects of the Nathema for instance (PASSIVE).

I'm sorry, what? It took almost everything Valkorion had to keep the void even at bay, and even then the Outlander and Lana were noticeably weakened:




Keeping the void at bay requires nearly all my strength.

It was hardly a "passive" effect. It was taking nearly everything he had to do so, and even then he couldn't fully protect them or prevent Nathema from weakening them.



It is logical for Valkorion to enable the Outlander to defeat Vaylin given how much he feared her potential to grow stronger over time and eventually surpass him one day (PASSIVE).

No, he feared she'd challenge him as Vitiate and therefore become a sizeable threat if her potential went beyond that. Again, you've shown nothing to suggest that he was shielding the Outlander beyond some bizarre "active/passive" categorisation. 



Force Storm (Wormhole) is an extrapolation of the Force Maelstrom application as per Palpatine.

Not what was said. Maelstrom is the lesser version of Storm:

UnuThul, Darth Caedus, Darish Vol vs Valkorion, Vaylin, Arcann - Page 2 Scree130
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UnuThul, Darth Caedus, Darish Vol vs Valkorion, Vaylin, Arcann - Page 2 Empty Re: UnuThul, Darth Caedus, Darish Vol vs Valkorion, Vaylin, Arcann

on May 13th 2020, 12:28 pm
@S_W_LeGenD:

Again, you're not providing a connection. Simply talking about Ziost without quantifying what it indicates about Valk in a combative context reveals little about the outcome of this match. That none of the aformentioned combatants have demonstrated anything on par with Ziost in scope does not indicate they're incapable of it. That doesn't make them any less powerful, it makes them more unknown. So, I ask you again, and I want a straight answer this time, why is Valk a one shot gap above this trio?
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UnuThul, Darth Caedus, Darish Vol vs Valkorion, Vaylin, Arcann - Page 2 Empty Re: UnuThul, Darth Caedus, Darish Vol vs Valkorion, Vaylin, Arcann

on May 13th 2020, 1:34 pm
^ This. You've provided absolutely nothing. Knight of Zakuul scaling proves absolutely nothing beyond Vaylin being very powerful (which we already know), and it's far from quantifiable. The Knights haven't been shown to defeat anyone of note besides an exhausted Senya and Lana.
S_W_LeGenD
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UnuThul, Darth Caedus, Darish Vol vs Valkorion, Vaylin, Arcann - Page 2 Empty Re: UnuThul, Darth Caedus, Darish Vol vs Valkorion, Vaylin, Arcann

on May 13th 2020, 7:30 pm
@BoD wrote:The three were asking Charles to clarify Zildrog's role in Nathema and Ziost. Charles' response was "Y'all have it pretty much sorted here", confirming that they're more or less right.


First, he "one-shotted" nine of the twelve. Second, we have no context for how it happened. Having summoned them to him, he was prepared and they were not, indicating either A) he had a ritual prepared, or B) he took advantage of their surprise.


A) You've yet to show why this is at all significant or why Unuthul or even Caedus and Vol couldn't also crush or beat the trio. Note that it was stated the trio might be able to beat novel Vitiate:


He was far more powerful now, but was he a match for the Emperor? Alone, probably not. With the combined strength of Meetra, Scourge, and even T3, however, he believed they stood a real chance of victory.


-


Sensing hesitation and uncertainty in the Emperor as he tried to evaluate the strength and weaknesses of his new foe, Scourge rushed forward to join Meetra and Revan.

-

wasteland. He saw both Revan’s triumph and defeat in the throne room; he saw variations of his own life and death played out over and over in every conceivable way, shape, and form.

While he was stronger, it was possible for the trio to beat him at least some of the time.



Which included a Jedi whose skills and power had begun to decline years before SWTOR Act 2:


And Leeha Narezz, who lacks any feats of note.

The only noteworthy characters were Act 2 HoT (who was ridiculously pre-prime) and Tol Braga. Nothing suggests that Unuthul wouldn't smack these two.


And why is this impressive? The Outlander was still heavily weakened and the trio had been fighting endless waves and were likely exhausted. 



It's the fact that he touched those Force users on a galactic scale which is impressive.




So basically an Unuthul without further refinement already has TP feats such as reaching across the galaxy. Even more impressive. 




I'd say throwing Luke around with the Force in their first fight, forcing Luke to cut loose to beat him and then contending with him in TP makes saying he was "no match" just a little bit of an attempt at lowballing. By this logic, Vitiate/Valkorion wasn't able to beat the Outlander in a TP fight thrice.



I'm sorry, what? It took almost everything Valkorion had to keep the void even at bay, and even then the Outlander and Lana were noticeably weakened:




Keeping the void at bay requires nearly all my strength.

It was hardly a "passive" effect. It was taking nearly everything he had to do so, and even then he couldn't fully protect them or prevent Nathema from weakening them.



No, he feared she'd challenge him as Vitiate and therefore become a sizeable threat if her potential went beyond that. Again, you've shown nothing to suggest that he was shielding the Outlander beyond some bizarre "active/passive" categorisation. 



Not what was said. Maelstrom is the lesser version of Storm:

UnuThul, Darth Caedus, Darish Vol vs Valkorion, Vaylin, Arcann - Page 2 Scree130

I would check the lore and SWTOR official disclosures, and draw conclusions from them instead; SWTOR isn't a one-man show.

Zildrog had two components in total (Surface and Mobile). Surface component was planted on Medriaas (Nathema) by an ancient civilization identified as Iokath. Mobile component was the Gravestone starship.

The ancient mechanical entity known as Zildrog has always operated from behind the scenes. Unlike the other "machine gods" of Iokath, Zildrog permanently functions in two forms.

The first is a central computer that specializes in the transfer of life energies. Given this device's presence on Nathema, it is likely that Zildrog was a key element of the original ritual Tenebrae used to empower himself at the cost of all life on the planet. Beyond that first atrocity, however, Zildrog's central mind appears to have played no role in Tenebrae's dual life as Vitiate and Valkorion, and slumbered in stasis mode until Vinn Atrius discovered it many years later.

The second of Zildrog's forms is the ancient warship known as the Gravestone. Though it can be operated by an organic crew when required, the vessel's Dark Heart functions as a remote command core that allows Zildrog to control the ship as an extension of itself.

Ancient Zakuulan myths often confuse or conflate Zildrog and Izax, likely because both entities are aerial platforms employing omnicannon technology. Given the many differences in their construction and operation, it seems likely that they were actually built entirely separately--perhaps even as rival projects carried out in Iokath's endless pursuit of better and deadlier weapons.


- Codex entry (Zildrog)

Zildrog does not have a presence on Ziost, and not a single arcane machine is identified which was supposedly put to good use by Tenebrae to his benefit when he invaded this planet to replenish himself (see below).

"When I am finished here--when every life on this world has been exhausted--I want you to be alive. To know that I succeeded."

How it started?

Unleashed from his sanctuary on Yavin 4, the former Sith Emperor has now struck the Imperial world of Ziost. Using his immense power in the dark side of the Force, he has dominated the minds of the planet’s Imperial troops--as well as an elite cadre of militaristic Jedi--and has set them against the populace, engaging in a bloody slaughter.

- SWTOR official disclosure (Game Update 3.2)

Tenebrae also used his immense power to conjure monstrosities to fuel violence:

But Monoliths are something beyond Sithspawn: they are everlasting monstrosities built not on a foundation of living tissue but of dark side energy itself. Enduring and merciless and quite possibly unkillable, Monoliths plainly illustrate the immeasurable power of their creator and are best avoided at all costs.

- Codex entry (Monoliths)

Why create conflict and fuel violence?


Obsessed with achieving immortality, the Sith Emperor has targeted his own former subjects on the planet Ziost, with every death seemingly extending his dark power. Speaking through those he’s possessed, he controls powerful pawns like Master Surro, the leader of a team of elite militarized Jedi known as the Sixth Line.

- SWTOR official disclosure (Game Update 3.2)

+

Known as the “Gateway to the Empire,” the planet Ziost is in a state of chaos as innocent civilians are targeted by possessed pawns of the Sith Emperor. From the menacing “People’s Tower” in the city’s center to massive armored walkers patrolling for fresh targets, the Sith Emperor’s presence is overwhelming, his power growing with every death… Only you have the strength to stand against him.

- SWTOR official disclosure (Game Update 3.2)

+

In-game dialogues also establish the fact that Tenebrae was using his powers to possess individuals and utilize them for violent ends in order to gain power from resultant deaths. For example:

"Each time a pawn is killed, Vitiate gets a little bit stronger. Not as much as when they kill, but.... That's what Minister Beniko says, anyway." - Agent Rane Kovach

Protagonists were exploring ways to reduce violence on Ziost on the other hand. For example:

"You feed on all the deaths you cause. I'm doing everything I can to take that away from you." - Sith Warrior class

Since protagonists were making evacuations possible, Tenebrae had no choice but to destroy Ziost (sooner than expected).

And a clear distinction is made in the lore in regards to what happened in the end:

Whispered rumors have persisted of planets snuffed out through intricate Sith rituals or by way of deadly, arcane machines--such as the device Revan sought to employ on Yavin 4--but Ziost represents a clear display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the Force taken to its extreme.

- Codex entry (Death of a World)

Tenebrae's exploits on Ziost were a means to an end:

The man now called Vitiate by those who once served him was not strong enough to usurp all life on Yavin 4 after his reawakening. However, he did gain power enough to flee the jungle moon and survive. Now that he has found in Ziost a suitable target to replenish himself--now that he appears to grow more powerful by the hour--what now? When will his unforgiving depletion of Ziost end? And when it does end, what fate will befall the rest of the galaxy?

- Codex entry (Vitiate)

So what kind of ritual you are alluding to? Tenebrae's exploits on Ziost are not a ritual but demonstrations of his raw power and efforts to replenish himself in the mix. This development is mistaken for being a ritual in Wookieepedia fanfiction, and some people have bought into it.

In fact, it can be argued that Tenebrae became stronger than ever before by virtue of consuming Ziost:

With each rebirth, he grew stronger. His machinations became grander. The pain and suffering he unleashed became greater. Some believed his ultimate goal was conquest: the complete subjugation of every world, known and unknown. Others believed he sought annihilation: the consumption of every living being in the galaxy, until he alone remained.

- Codex entry (The Fall of Valkorion)

Therefore, Valkorion is Tenebrae's most powerful incarnation.

---

Tenebrae [one-shotted] an entire Dark Council from afar; 11 died on the spot but one survived albeit unconscious (as good as dead anyways). WE do not know what kind of powers were involved in this confrontation but I wouldn't rule out an extraordinary application of Sith Sorcery which wasn't supposed to be public knowledge (and it isn't). This accomplishment support my original statements that Tenebrae is capable of one-shotting an overwhelming force 'under the right circumstances' and/or numbers become irrelevant in front of him when he mean business.

Prepared is a subjective term. Aren't characters supposed to be 'prepared' for the battle in a versus scenario?

---

I do not deny that, but Lord Scourge was convinced that Tenebrae was more likely to prevail:

Betraying his allies had not altered the inevitable outcome; the Emperor would have won regardless. At least this way Scourge was still alive to carry on their cause.

- SWTOR: Revan

Perhaps you can enlighten me how either member of Team 1 can take on and overwhelm the TRIO of Revan (Reborn), Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge in a hypothetical confrontation? This is overreaching on your part; continue to read below.

Do you realize that Revan (Reborn) is officially counted among the strongest Jedi [ever] with the rare ability to wield both Light and Dark side powers to his advantage? And Meetra Surik defeated Darth Traya in a fight who in turn seems to be more formidable than Count Dooku? Lord Scourge wasn't a joke either (he killed Darth Xedrix and his allies earlier). Even as of the events of the Jedi Civil War, Tenebrae is officially identified as the 'almost godlike avatar of the dark side' - same guy who broke the duo of Revan and Malak with barely an effort who happened to be battle-hardened, well-learned in the ways of the Force, and strong-willed heroes of the Republic at the time.

I recall Darth Caedus holding his own against a Jedi Strike Team of virtually unknowns with the exception of Kyle Katarn. Although Darth Caedus fought well, he wasn't able to bring the Jedi to their knees with a single blast of power or such. Darth Caedus managed to defeat Kyle Katarn by pulling a speeder in the latter's direction, and killed another Jedi (Thann Mithric) by deflecting a blaster bolt towards his chest. Others chose to flee afterwards. This fight might impress you but I would contend that Darth Traya have superior combat-applicable showings; she smoked 3 notable Jedi Masters (Vrook Lamar; Kavar; Zez-Kai Ell) with her vast Telekinetic and Force Drain powers, and eliminated scores of Sith Assassins without even lifting a finger on a separate occasion. And Meetra Surik was somehow able to defeat/kill Darth Traya in a fight even though the latter is/was canonically stronger. 

Darth Caedus defeated Onimi after achieving Oneness (not under normal circumstances), and managed to defeat Mara Jade Skywalker with mental tricks in another fight (not impressed). To his credit, he had excellent tolerance for injuries much like Hero of Tython, and his Telekinetic abilities are on the level of Aryn Leener (Count Dooku+). Nevertheless, his demonstrations of raw power pale in comparison to that of any member of Team 2.

Darish Vol is the strongest member of the Lost Tribe, and he managed to counter Telepathic powers of Abeloth which is very impressive feat. He would be stronger than Darth Caedus given his performance against Abeloth and hype. His dueling skills are virtually unknown however (a weakness). Even if he is made to confront Arcann, there is no guarantee that he would prevail in this encounter because Arcann pack much resistance against Force powers and he is excellent with a lightsaber on top.

UnuThul, as I have pointed out earlier, have impressive Telepathic abilities but stood no chance against Luke Skywalker in a confrontation (this wasn't a clash of equals). UnuThul is largely untested in combat situations by the way; WE do not know how he would fare against a Jedi Strike Team and/or another very capable Force-user. I do not get his hype based on very limited showings.

---

Contrary to your opinion, the Jedi Strike Team [in question] was officially made up of some of the strongest and most resolute Jedi of the Order. While Jedi Knight Warren Sedoru admitted loss in power he wasn't a non-factor, and others were in good form. Leeha Narezz could read minds of living beings which is a rare talent (very handy in a team-based effort) whereas Jedi Master Tol Braga and Hero of Tython were supposed to do the heavy-lifting in the expected fight. To their surprise, Tenebrae [one-shotted] them all from a distance and broke them subsequently. No member of Team 1 have a comparable combat-applicable showing.

And no! Hero of Tython wasn't ridiculously pre-prime at the time of his FIRST confrontation with the Emperor's Wrath and Tenebrae subsequently; Hero of Tython was bordering his ACT-III level power and experience at the time. He was already counted among the most powerful and resolute Jedi of the Order with remarkable accomplishments under his belt and even the Emperor's Wrath had remarked that he was the Jedi's finest up to this point in time.

---

You continue to miss the point.

As emphasized in the LORE, Knights of Zakuul are supposed to sweep groups of Jedi and/or Sith if spotted let alone a single Force-user. Knights of Zakuul are very effective warriors as a group because of their unique philosophy which encourage sharing of knowledge and does not restrict them in regards to what they are supposed to learn:

Zakuul Knights don't limit themselves to studying one side of the Force, instead teaching balance and exploration. Knights have their own relationships with the Force, but are encouraged to share their findings with the rest of the order. No area is deemed "weak" or "a dangerous path"--they are all parts of a larger, limitless power.

- Codex entry (Knights of Zakuul)

That is why Jedi and/or Sith were unable to defeat Knights of Zakuul in the battlefield (confirmed by Satele Shan and Darth Marr respectively). Jedi tend to restrict themselves to ways of the Light whereas Sith undermine each other with infighting.

The Outlander and his allies such as Sith Lord Lana Beniko and Senya Tirall (one of the Knights of Zakuul), were collectively formidable enough to LIFT the massive Gravestone vessel from the surface while it was firmly entrenched in the ground. It would take a much formidable force to handle this TRIO in a confrontation since each was capable of taking on and defeating multiple opponents in a fight without breaking a sweat in personal capacity.

Such powerful Force-users aren't easily exhausted, and there wasn't any sign of fatigue in either of them during the course of their battle with the Knights of Zakuul. They were on the brink of being overwhelmed by sheer skill and numbers of the Knights of Zakuul on the other hand. About a dozen Knights of Zakuul were involved in addition to numerous droids and some mechanized Walkers in the mix. The word 'countless' is really stretching it though.

The IMPRESSIVE PART is that of Vaylin when she overwhelmed a very large force of Knights of Zakuul [all by herself]; this demonstration of raw power spooked her mother Senya and rightfully so. This is/was clearly beyond combat-applicable possibilities for a lone Jedi and/or Sith no matter how strong, beyond even Revan (SoR) who had transcended his mortal limitations and would have dismantled a conventional army all by himself at this point.

---

And?

Do you recall the plague of Lord Vivicar? - much superior showing in comparison.

---

Luke Skywalker was going easy on UnuThul [early on] because these two had a shared history, and the former felt that he could redeem the latter. This confrontation became a one-sided affair however when Luke became serious and decided to end the fight on his terms right then and there. 

Tenebrae broke scores of Jedi and/or Sith with just his Telepathic powers, and he is officially capable of doing the same to even the strongest of the Jedi ever:

The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. His corrupting influence is so complete that none can stand in his presence without succumbing to fear, anger and hatred. The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi’s connection to the light side. Jedi Master Tol Braga’s strike team was not the first group to succumb to the Sith leader’s oppressive influence. Hundreds of years ago, the Jedi Revan and Malak discovered Dromund Kaas and confronted the Emperor. They fell to the dark side and returned to Republic space as Sith Lords. Since then, dozens more Jedi have followed the same path into evil.

- Codex entry (The Emperor's Fallen Jedi (Knight)).

At some point, Tenebrae reduced an entire Dark Council to trembling pychophants in a meeting. Tenebrae also demonstrated the capability to [forcefully] possess countless beings including many Force-users to advance his agenda on Ziost.

Tenebrae could succeed against Luke Skywalker where UnuThul failed.

---

One of your better points in your response.

PASSIVE support = not visible
ACTIVE support = clearly visible

---

I will look into this.

The Outlander was already significantly BOOSTED by Tenebrae in terms of powers (Chapter 12 of KoTFE) in order to make it possible for his host to contend with his children on equal footing. Deep down, Tenebrae was preparing to take over the Outlander and utilize him as his next major VOICE or MASK for indefinite period. These gains might not be permanent for the Outlander though.

---

Even as a child, Vaylin showed signs of tremendous power. Fearing she would one day challenge him, Valkorion imprisoned his daughter while he sought limits and controls on her power.

Through brutal experiments and mental conditioning, Vaylin was subconsciously trained to respond to a specific phrase: kneel before the Dragon of Zakuul. When spoken by her father, these words prevent Vaylin from unleashing her power and temporarily trap her will in an unbreakable mental prison.

While effective, it is likely the conditioning aggravated Vaylin's violent tendencies and contributed to her mental instability. While trying to cage his daughter's anger, Valkorion transformed her into a monster.


- Codex entry (Vaylin's Conditioning)

Why would Tenebrae adopt such measures? Because he feared her potential to challenge him one day. Something no Jedi and/or Sith was capable of doing throughout history up to his time.

---

Extrapolation = extension = increased

Point is same.


Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on May 16th 2020, 4:06 am; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Minor corrections.)
MasterCilghal
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on May 14th 2020, 2:35 am
I don’t t really want to interfere with this debate, as I’m not very knowledgeable on the TOR characters, but there’s a couple of things about UnuThul and Caedus that I want to point out:


I recall Darth Caedus holding his own against a Jedi Strike Team of virtually unknowns with the exception of Kyle Katarn. Although Darth Caedus fought well, he wasn't able to bring the Jedi to their knees with a single blast of power or such. Darth Caedus managed to defeat Kyle Katarn by pulling a speeder in the latter's direction, and killed another Jedi (Thann Mithric) by deflecting a blaster bolt towards his chest. Others chose to flee afterwards.

It wasn’t Caedus who held his own against the team, but rather the contrary. It’s stated in the same novel by Kyp and Luke (Katarn was aware of it as well) that the intent of the mission was to place a tracking device on Caedus’ “package”, but as far as the dueling part went, they knew very well Katarn and the team stood no realistic chance of winning. Not only that, but we’re talking about an injured and pre prime Caedus. And lastly, Katarn was the one holding most of his attention, the other jedi were no match for him, something that proves to be true. 

UnuThul, as I have pointed out earlier, have impressive Telepathic abilities but stood no chance against Luke Skywalker in a confrontation (this wasn't a clash of equals). UnuThul is largely untested in combat situations by the way; WE do not know how he would fare against a Jedi Strike Team and/or another very capable Force-user. I do not get his hype based on very limited showings.

You’re right in saying that Luke is more powerful, but in a contest of pure strength and speed, they’re about even. The novel downright says both were using “all the speed and might they could summon” and for a lengthy period of time. It was not until Luke cut his arm that it turned into a contest of TK, at which it took everything out of him to withstand the attack and later pin him to a nearby wall, a feat whose legitimacy is unclear BTW. I also don’t get why you think UnuThul’s showings are limited when he’s done stuff like bend extremely powerful turbolaser barrages, destroyed shuttles, overwhelmed Leia... He also scales significantly above Lomi Plo and Welk, both of whom are extremely powerful in their own right.
S_W_LeGenD
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on May 14th 2020, 2:22 pm
@MasterCilghal wrote:I don’t t really want to interfere with this debate, as I’m not very knowledgeable on the TOR characters, but there’s a couple of things about UnuThul and Caedus that I want to point out:

It wasn’t Caedus who held his own against the team, but rather the contrary. It’s stated in the same novel by Kyp and Luke (Katarn was aware of it as well) that the intent of the mission was to place a tracking device on Caedus’ “package”, but as far as the dueling part went, they knew very well Katarn and the team stood no realistic chance of winning. Not only that, but we’re talking about an injured and pre prime Caedus. And lastly, Katarn was the one holding most of his attention, the other jedi were no match for him, something that proves to be true.

You’re right in saying that Luke is more powerful, but in a contest of pure strength and speed, they’re about even. The novel downright says both were using “all the speed and might they could summon” and for a lengthy period of time. It was not until Luke cut his arm that it turned into a contest of TK, at which it took everything out of him to withstand the attack and later pin him to a nearby wall, a feat whose legitimacy is unclear BTW. I also don’t get why you think UnuThul’s showings are limited when he’s done stuff like bend extremely powerful turbolaser barrages, destroyed shuttles, overwhelmed Leia... He also scales significantly above Lomi Plo and Welk, both of whom are extremely powerful in their own right.

Thanks for your input.

Those Jedi stood no chance against Darth Caedus because of his exceptional dueling skills and their inability to affect him with their Force powers. Darth Caedus was not even remotely close to [one-shotting] that Jedi Strike Team with his powers otherwise. He still had to come up with a strategy to neutralize Kyle Katarn in particular (turning a nearby speeder into a projectile to achieve the desired outcome). I am not trying to discredit Darth Caedus here, simply pointing out that he is no Valkorion and/or Vaylin. Either would have flattened this Jedi Strike Team without breaking a sweat.

I recall that fight in a different light. I am not asserting that UnuThul was insignificant in comparison to Luke Skywalker but when the latter Jedi Master became serious, the fight was virtually over for UnuThul. Please keep in mind that UnuThul isn't a standout for affecting Luke with his Telekinetic abilities and keeping up with him in a duel - several opponents of Luke accomplished the same.

Those feats of UnuThul are commonly highlighted in numerous threads but I would like to see details.

Following photo:

UnuThul, Darth Caedus, Darish Vol vs Valkorion, Vaylin, Arcann - Page 2 4895889-protection%20survives%20bombardment%201

- depict Jedi Master Lucien Draay tanking turbolaser firepower (although not visible in this shot). He was wearing ancient Sith gauntlets at the time but these do not make much difference for him given his own raw power. He suffered serious injuries but survived.

Lucien isn't in the league of the greatest champions of his time (KoTOR) and otherwise:

In the Star Wars Miniatures Game, Master Lucien Draay is the best "beatstick" available to the Old Republic faction. Lightsaber Block, Lightsaber Riposte, and Master of the Force 2 give him the ability to use both Lightsaber Block and Lightsaber Riposte against a single attack. Rounding out his anti-Sith Lord credentials, Draay has Lightsaber Duelist, giving him that much extra longevity against lightsaber-wielding maniacs: Only Count Dooku (Clone Strike) and Darth Revan (The Force Unleashed) manage a higher Defense against these foes. While he certainly won't outfight Lord Vader or Darth Bane, Draay is capable of putting up a good fight.

Link: https://sites.google.com/site/assfrancstarwarsmini/presentation-du-jeu/d-les-figurines/preview/set-11-knights-of-the-old-republic/preview-2

UnuThul bending turbolaser shots is very impressive showing on his part [if true] but this is inconclusive to rank him in the grand scheme of things. This revelation establish that he is stronger than Jedi Master Lucien Draay to say the least.

I do not recall UnuThul destroying shuttles, and overwhelming Leia Organa Solo isn't a big deal in my view.
Foxtrot Jay 16
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on May 22nd 2020, 3:34 pm
Team 1 

Caedus > Arcann by a large margin. 
Vol > Vaylin by a large margin as well. 

Tbh the only evenish matchup is Valk vs Unuthul but Valk probably doesn’t win that.
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

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on May 24th 2020, 4:23 am
@Foxtrot Jay 16 wrote:Team 1 

Caedus > Arcann by a large margin. 
Vol > Vaylin by a large margin as well. 

Tbh the only evenish matchup is Valk vs Unuthul but Valk probably doesn’t win that.

I'd suggest you go through earlier posts.

All of that is wrong on so many levels.
XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
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on May 28th 2020, 2:15 am
Team 2 obliterates.
The Rich Man
The Rich Man

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on June 7th 2020, 5:22 pm
UnuThul vs Valkorion: Valkorion 
Darish Vol vs Vaylin: Probably Vaylin
Darth Caedus vs Arcann: Probably Caedus

Verdict: Team 2


Last edited by The Rich Man on June 7th 2020, 5:51 pm; edited 2 times in total
Seturna
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on June 7th 2020, 5:24 pm
@The Rich Man wrote:UnuThul vs Valkorion: Valkorion 
Darish Vol vs Vaylin: Probably Vol 
Darth Caedus vs Arcann: Probably Caedus

Verdict: Team 2
Why does Vol beat Vaylin?
DarthAnt66
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on June 7th 2020, 5:26 pm
@BoD: You said Valkorion can only consume a world via a ritual, then linked to images meaning Valkorion can consume a world without a ritual.
The Rich Man
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on June 7th 2020, 5:57 pm
@Seturna wrote:
@The Rich Man wrote:UnuThul vs Valkorion: Valkorion 
Darish Vol vs Vaylin: Probably Vol 
Darth Caedus vs Arcann: Probably Caedus

Verdict: Team 2
Why does Vol beat Vaylin?
My mind has changed. Vaylin defeats Vol.
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on June 8th 2020, 10:39 am
Jaggarath wrote:@BoD: You said Valkorion can only consume a world via a ritual, then linked to images meaning Valkorion can consume a world without a ritual.
The two aren't mutually exclusive. Charles has also said - or implied, been a while since I read it - in the past that Ziost required rituals to instigate the process and funnel the energy into him. The actual act of draining the planet is him.

I wasn't trying to say Vitiate required a ritual to actually drain the planet, only catch and absorb the energy released.
S_W_LeGenD
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on June 8th 2020, 10:47 am
@BoD wrote:
Jaggarath wrote:@BoD: You said Valkorion can only consume a world via a ritual, then linked to images meaning Valkorion can consume a world without a ritual.
The two aren't mutually exclusive. Charles has also said - or implied, been a while since I read it - in the past that Ziost required rituals to instigate the process and funnel the energy into him. The actual act of draining the planet is him.

I wasn't trying to say Vitiate required a ritual to actually drain the planet, only catch and absorb the energy released.

Charles is just one author contributing to the BioWare SWTOR project; he doesn't get to decide the entire thing all on this own. SWTOR is a TEAM-BASED work under BioWare.

I have updated my blog by now with as much information I could dig out from the game itself: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/devastation-of-ziost-updated-and-expanded-in-2020-/105050/

Sorry buddy, no sign of dark ritual being involved in any capacity in that development. That was entirely Tenebrae's doing.

BioWare CANON take precedence over an author's statement made in isolation in the forum unless it is an OFFICIAL release.

If an author comment on a thread and assert that NATHEMA is a myth, would you take his word on it? CANON is a thing, my friend.

BioWare have adopted methods to convey LORE to the audience; in-game dialogues; cut-scenes; codex entries; press releases; articles; novels; books (only these count).

An author's statement can be used to inform an argument, and not binding.

Only subscribers can comment in the SWTOR official forum. When I will consider subscribing again, I will address this matter over there as well and bring it to its logical conclusion. All will be made to bend the knee.

I have had debates in that community before: https://www.swtor.com/fr/community/showthread.php?t=651536

I was a Sith Acolyte back then, but I have grown since...

Those rogue Sith need a redressing from the Emperor's Wrath... They will get to experience the full power of the dark side upon my return...

UnuThul, Darth Caedus, Darish Vol vs Valkorion, Vaylin, Arcann - Page 2 1076326320
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on June 8th 2020, 1:37 pm
I don't know what I just read but it gives "unwarranted arrogance" a whole new definition.
S_W_LeGenD
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on June 8th 2020, 2:15 pm
@BoD wrote:I don't know what I just read but it gives "unwarranted arrogance" a whole new definition.

You do not get the HUMOR in my post, do you... UnuThul, Darth Caedus, Darish Vol vs Valkorion, Vaylin, Arcann - Page 2 4037459623

HUMOR = "the quality of being amusing or comic, especially as expressed in literature or speech."


UnuThul, Darth Caedus, Darish Vol vs Valkorion, Vaylin, Arcann - Page 2 2266747095


Anyways, just read my blog; it is updated and expanded in its current form to the benefit of potential readers. Accessible to all for FREE - I do not charge money for it.  UnuThul, Darth Caedus, Darish Vol vs Valkorion, Vaylin, Arcann - Page 2 2266747095

You will find all manner of information in it about what exactly happened on Ziost - based on information that is officially sanctioned by BIOWARE.

Don't buy into theories of some members in a thread who did not even post any manner of evidence to validate their claims (member FlameYOL got the Ziost part right in his first post but then he deviated from it in his next). An author jumping in and endorsing such statements is rather indicative of the fact that he isn't the sole contributor to the project; there are others who contribute to the project, and every author might not be necessarily kept in the loop for of all manner of UPDATES taking place on 24/7 basis. People learn and understand in time.

Given the fact how massive SWTOR is, there are things in it which will escape memory unless revisited. People who are working for BioWare will seldom recall 'minute details' given their busy routine.

I am one of the players of SWTOR and I do not claim to know everything about it or recall certain details at the moment; I am a human being and not a hard disk. I am writing BLOGS because I want to remember and keep in touch with latest developments in relation to characters which I came to respect and admire over time. Only through significant investment of time and effort in digging relevant information, did I learn much by now. Even then it will take a while to put all manner of information that I have gathered into perspective in my blogs. And I have a life outside Star Wars.

SWTOR is not the work of a single man - I am telling you this again and again. And when multiple contributors are involved in a work, contradictions are to be expected at times. SWTOR-E was the last known effort to achieve consensus-building in relation. I hope BioWare consider providing an UPDATE to this book. When I will subscribe again, I will reach out to BioWare to provide an update to SWTOR-E; these things sell.

Whenever Tenebrae had performed a ritual for a particular end, it was officially recognized and mentioned as such; this practice is not to be assumed to be a part of each of his activity and/or accomplishment otherwise.

What is next? Force Lightning is a ritual? UnuThul, Darth Caedus, Darish Vol vs Valkorion, Vaylin, Arcann - Page 2 3037424776
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