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NotAA3
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Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity? - Page 2 Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity?

on February 8th 2020, 1:41 pm
Overall, when you're trying to build a Yoda >>>> Dooku case, don't ignore evidence the opposition cited in order to cherry-pick a few selective points and post scans that are more up to interpretation than the more concrete facts laid out by the opposition.
MasterCilghal
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on February 8th 2020, 1:49 pm
@SnowxElf wrote:He also does in the AOTC comic at the beginning of duel. As soon as he goes for aggressiveness he instantly overwhelms Dooku here (See below).

Yeah because comic panels are obviously meant to be taken at face value. Let’s ignore the plethora of quotes saying Dooku was able to give Yoda a good fight with Yoda having to rely on his full jedi powers, and all all of this achieved by a tired Dooku.
SnowxElf
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on February 8th 2020, 2:32 pm
@NotAA3
When Yoda decides to go on the offensive the two engage in a portracted duel, he doesn't "instantly wreck Dooku" - absolutely nothing you posted proves that (a comic massively condensing the fight into a few brief snapshots isn't evidence).
You're free to that opinion. However, in the comic it seems that once Yoda used his Aturu he instantly disarmed Dooku of his lightsaber IMO. It also sated that he was no match for Yoda in the comic panel.
(a comic massively condensing the fight into a few brief snapshots isn't evidence).
It definitely is
This doesn't at all address that you ignored the wider message in order to selectively choose the parts you wanted to address. You're not going to convince anyone of your stance by ignoring half of what the opposition has proposed.
^I never ignored what was proposed, however, there are many contradictions to this fight in quotes, in lore, in feats, ect. Which is why many people are divided about it. There is also a lot of subject matter here that wasn't necessarily addressed by Jake, or others. Like, Dooku getting force choked across the galaxy by Sidious who is on par with Yoda. Or the qoute which says Dooku was attacking Yoda with everything he had, ect..
Showing that it ("it" being Yoda defending) happened in another source once again fails to address the overall message: Yoda defending doesn't necessitate he wasn't going all out, as opposed to just trying to tire Dooku out before attacking, and the fact that he struggles to lift a pillar after the duel shows he must have been very fatigued.
^The only thing I was doing here was telling him that Yoda fought defensively in another fight, that's it, which he seemed unaware of. Which is why I posted the panels to begin with.
If Dooku isn't defending himself then there's no reason to think Palpatine can do it when Dooku is defending himself, regardless of distance. You're trying to fight against the mountain of evidence showing potential parity between Yoda and Dooku with a feat that doesn't even show a massive combative disparity between Sheev and Dooku.
We can agree to disagree, the distance at which a feat is performed should be an indicator of power. Especially, since he did it from across the galaxy. That should be enough to scale Sidious over Dooku by a large amount in the TK department, and by extension Yoda.
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

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on February 8th 2020, 2:35 pm
@MasterCilghal wrote:
@SnowxElf wrote:He also does in the AOTC comic at the beginning of duel. As soon as he goes for aggressiveness he instantly overwhelms Dooku here (See below).

Yeah because comic panels are obviously meant to be taken at face value. Let’s ignore the plethora of quotes saying Dooku was able to give Yoda a good fight with Yoda having to rely on his full jedi powers, and all all of this achieved by a tired Dooku.
^I was only referring to the AOTC comic fight
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on February 8th 2020, 2:40 pm
Yoda isnt >>>> Dooku, nor is Dooku ~ Yoda. there is this neutral area inbetween where they both lie. Simply put, Yoda > Dooku, by idk how much.
MasterCilghal
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on February 8th 2020, 2:47 pm
@SnowxElf wrote:I was only referring to the AOTC comic fight
Sure, but this doesn’t change my point. The intent behind your use of the comic was to debunk Dooku being an actual threat to Yoda. Not only are comic panels usually up for interpretation, but that would contradict pretty much every source, including the movie. 

NotAA3
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on February 8th 2020, 2:56 pm
@SnowxElf

You're free to that opinion. However, in the comic it seems that once Yoda used his Aturu he instantly disarmed Dooku of his lightsaber IMO. It also sated that he was no match for Yoda in the comic panel.

Like in our last discussion, you're missing the point entirely. Both the Adult Novelization and the movie display an extended duel, which the comic crops down - only showing the key points (i.e. Yoda attacking and then Dooku getting disarmed). This is the same with all of the movie to comic adaptions, for example, the Yoda vs Sidious duel in ROTS is likewise nowhere near as lengthy in comic format. Again, taking a massively cropped down comic version of the fight which doesn't even necessarily contradict other sources and just omits most of the fight isn't evidence.

^I never ignored what was proposed, however, there are many contradictions to this fight in quotes, in lore, in feats, ect. Which is why many people are divided about it.

You absolutely did. You took the comic version of the fight saying Dooku was no match for Yoda and ignored everything Jake posted regarding Lucas's obvious change in intent.

There is also a lot of subject matter here that wasn't necessarily addressed by Jake, or others. Like, Dooku getting force choked across the galaxy by Sidious who is on par with Yoda.

He doesn't need to address something which doesn't specifically pertain to this fight and doesn't even contradict anything anyway. Again, you need to prove Dooku tried to defend himself in order for me to remotely consider it in this debate.

Or the qoute which says Dooku was attacking Yoda with everything he had, ect..

The fact that Dooku fought at his best against Yoda doesn't contradict the notion that he'd already depleted a significant portion of reserves, and thus would be more susceptible to tiring out.

^The only thing I was doing here was telling him that Yoda fought defensively in another fight, that's it, which he seemed unaware of. Which is why I posted the panels to begin with.

Your position in this thread is that Yoda and Dooku aren't in the same league, and you responded to Jake and Cilghal with a few nitpicks and comic scans without addressing the overall point. That's cherry-picking, this point doesn't remotely address that.

We can agree to disagree, the distance at which a feat is performed should be an indicator of power. Especially, since he did it from across the galaxy. That should be enough to scale Sidious over Dooku by a large amount in the TK department, and by extension Yoda.

There is no agree to disagree. You're ignoring everything I wrote and just citing "muh distance" which does not address the point. If Dooku wasn't defending himself, then there is no feat (i.e. no TK comparison between Sidious and Dooku), so the distance changing the difficulty is utterly irrelevant. Let's choose:

1) Neither Sidious nor Yoda can ragdoll Dooku in a direct combat situation as evidenced by Yoda's failure to do so in AOTC.

2) Sidious can ragdoll Dooku in a combat situation as evidenced by him Force Choking Dooku when the latter had no defence up in a non-combat situation.

I know which position I'm more inclined to agree with. Also, note that Sidious also can't immediately ragdoll Maul when Lightsaber duelling, as per Shadow Conspiracy, so there's no reason to think he can do so to Dooku either.
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

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on February 8th 2020, 3:16 pm
^disagree with posts above but am not going to continue this debate for now.
NotAA3
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on February 8th 2020, 3:20 pm
Concession accepted.
Latham2000
Latham2000

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on February 9th 2020, 11:42 am
@Jake wrote:
@Latham2000 wrote:Jake has presented sources that support the notion, but IIRC there are some depictions of the fight that show that Yoda was fighting defensively for a while and once he fought offensively, he came close to killing get Dooku, which isn’t mutually exclusive with what Jake’s sources say.

I do think my sources can coexist with the various depictions of the fight, Latham. I will say however, that while the early versions do have Yoda standing there unmoving as Dooku rains blow after blow down on him and then quickly overpowering, as we get closer to the movie's completion George seems to have a change of heart, conveying to Animation Director Rob Coleman that he wanted an 'amazing clash between two ultimate masters' - and just by coincidence, those sequences were changed;

What does George want? 

According to Episode II's animation director, Rob Coleman,"George felt that Star Wars fans had been waiting a long time for this moment, and that they wanted to see Yoda in combat. He wanted us to show Yoda ferociously leaping and fighting, not just standing his ground and deflecting incoming attacks. The results had to be an amazing clash between the forces of good and evil with two ultimate masters (Yoda vs. Count Dooku) of opposite sides of the Force in head-to-head combat." This is, of course, exactly what audiences got to see.

Star Wars Adventures Magazine #1

If you watched any of the featurettes you'd remember how closely Rob Coleman and George Lucas worked together on the final fight, spending plenty of time perfecting Yoda's facial expressions and movements as well as fine tuning the build-up and the duel itself (among other things), so he would know more than anyone what Lucas wanted. You cannot tell me with a straight face that you would describe any of the earlier adaptations as "an amazing clash between the forces of good and evil with two ultimate masters", where Yoda "doesn't move an inch" under Dooku's finest assault, with the Count then quickly disarmed and overpowered. So how about this fight;




I'd say it fits perfectly. The versions of the duel you want to use were changed by George from a quick, uneven clash between one master, and one apprentice to a brutal fight between two ultimate masters. From the get-go in the movie, Yoda is leaping around and defending himself from all angles, in stark contrast to the casual 'never moved an inch' stonewalling Dooku was initially meant to receive, so they cannot coexist.

This is not like the Revenge of the Sith novelisation/movie conundrum, it isn't a case of simply omitting one or more scenes, this is George completely changing that scene to fit with the "ultimate masters" narrative and presenting that as the final and finished product. Since this is George's ruling, versions that show us anything different can be thrown out. That's all under the assumption that your idea on my sources contradicting is correct, which I'm not buying; Yoda can be using all of his powers and still allow Dooku to attack him relentlessly in order to drain his reserves, and then launch into an assault of his own with intent to kill.
Sorry for the late reply.

You typed this long post just to make the simple point that the AotC script's depiction of Dooku vs Yoda is an unfinished product that got rectonned by the movie, but I never cited the AotC script, I said that there are some depictions of the fight that depict Yoda initially fighting defensively and decided to go in for the kill once he started fighting offensively. I was mistaken with the use of plural, because I was referring to this specific Fact Files depiction:

"Ultimately, it came down to a battle of lightsabers. Dooku drew his weapon and leapt to attack. Yoda pushed back his cloak and called his own lightsaber to his hand. With a shout, Yoda leapt into battle in a dizzying flurry of motion.

Count Dooku used a mix of subtle blade engagements and crashing blows. Yoda used the force of Dooku’s attacks to propel his own leaping, spinning assault. Though Dooku was recognized as a master with a lightsaber, Yoda was simply never where the Count’s blade struck. The first exchange as the combatants paused, blades lock.

Yoda pushed up a gear, shifting Dooku’s blade away and launching a frightening attack, his shrill battle-cry echoing around the chamber. Yoda’s tumbling leaps now changed direct in midair as he rained blows down on a frantically defending Dooku.

Barely showing the stress of battle, Yoda drew Dooku into outstretching and unbalancing himself, before he, once again, locked lightsabers with his former Padawan.

Count Dooku was many things, but he was no fool. Knowing he was bested and facing imminent defeat and death if the conflict continued, Dooku reached out with the Force and crushed the base of a nearby piece of heavy machinery." -- The Official Star Wars Fact File 65.

This was written after the movie was released, and it doesn't contradict the choreagraphy. It describes the choreagraphy quite perfectly with more accuracy than the script, senior novel, junior novel and comic book did.
Jake
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on February 10th 2020, 7:51 am
@Latham2000 You typed this long post just to make the simple point that the AotC script's depiction of Dooku vs Yoda is an unfinished product that got rectonned by the movie, but I never cited the AotC script, I said that there are some depictions of the fight that depict Yoda initially fighting defensively and decided to go in for the kill once he started fighting offensively. I was mistaken with the use of plural, because I was referring to this specific Fact Files depiction:

Just a misunderstanding there, that's fine, but this was your original point;

Jake has presented sources that support the notion, but IIRC there are some depictions of the fight that show that Yoda was fighting defensively for a while and once he fought offensively, he came close to killing get Dooku, which isn’t mutually exclusive with what Jake’s sources say.

You want to cancel out my sources (of which there were dozens), because of one description of the fight from a Fact File. Which section specifically does Yoda defending first, and then attacking contradict? Him using "all his formidable Jedi powers"? Even after Yoda switches from defense to offense, Dooku still "holds his own" according to the same source you're using to overwrite mine - as well as descriptions from other material "held strong" "parrying brilliantly".
Latham2000
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on February 10th 2020, 8:58 am
@Jake

You want to cancel out my sources (of which there were dozens), because of one description of the fight from a Fact File. 

I wasn't trying to overwrite your sources because the Fact Files description doesn't contradict yours, but they gave a more detailed account of the battle that aren't mutually exclusive with the sources that you presented.

Which section specifically does Yoda defending first, and then attacking contradict?

Poor phrasing on my part. I didn't mean to argue that my source contradict your sources. The third paragraph says "Yoda pushed up a gear, shifting Dooku’s blade away and launching a frightening attack..." i.e. implying that Yoda was defending first, then attacking midway in the duel, because "Yoda pushed up a gear," implicitly meaning that Yoda decided to exert more effort and energy mid-duel rather than the get go.

Him using "all his formidable Jedi powers"? Even after Yoda switches from defense to offense, Dooku still "holds his own" according to the same source you're using to overwrite mine - as well as descriptions from other material "held strong" "parrying brilliantly".

Wasn't disputing any of this.
Jake
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on February 10th 2020, 9:22 am
@Latham2000 If all you had was a minor gripe with a very specific point of mine about the first part of the fight, then this was pointless. The answer to the thread is; Yes, Yoda was going all-out trying to kill Dooku so hard that he gassed himself, while Dooku parried this attack "brilliantly" and held his own despite having had "a lot taken out of him", the cause of his early departure. Yoda being spent by the fight's finish despite conserving some of his energy during the defense stage shows you just how much force he put into his offense.
Latham2000
Latham2000

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on February 13th 2020, 7:40 am
@Jake wrote:@Latham2000 If all you had was a minor gripe with a very specific point of mine about the first part of the fight, then this was pointless. The answer to the thread is; Yes, Yoda was going all-out trying to kill Dooku so hard that he gassed himself, while Dooku parried this attack "brilliantly" and held his own despite having had "a lot taken out of him", the cause of his early departure. Yoda being spent by the fight's finish despite conserving some of his energy during the defense stage shows you just how much force he put into his offense.

I have another gripe. The same Fact Files that you're citing for Dooku having "a lot taken out of him" from his battle with Anakin and Obi-Wan also say that Dooku caught his breath:


"The battle with Obi-Wan and Anakin had taken a lot out of Count Dooku, though he was a former Jedi Master and renowned lightsaber duelist. He deactivated his crimson blade and caught his breath as he contemplated his fallen foes." -- The Official Star Wars Fact Files 103.
Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity? - Page 2 103%2B003%2BBattles%2B%2526%2BEvents%2B-%2B22BBY%2BLIG3

This is made obvious in the movie itself because Dooku's fight with Yoda doesn't immediately happen after his fight with Anakin and Obi-Wan in the movie, given that he stares at his beaten opponents while catching his breath, watches Yoda taking his time to enter the hangar and has a little conversation with Yoda before he decides to throw stuff at Yoda.
Jake
Jake

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on February 16th 2020, 1:04 pm
@Latham2000 Two of the quotes do, the others flatly state that he’s “tired.” 

Dooku clowning around with Obi-Wan and Anakin at the start of Revenge of the Sith leaves him worried that he’ll soon be drained, but a 20 second duel with Obi-Wan, and a 40 second duel with flash of brilliance Anakin Skywalker who makes him work “furiously” only tires him insofar as some surface breathlessness? The sources don’t limit his fatigue to only windedness, that’s not a solid position.
Latham2000
Latham2000

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on February 16th 2020, 1:26 pm
@Jake wrote:@Latham2000 Two of the quotes do, the others flatly state that he’s “tired.” 

Dooku clowning around with Obi-Wan and Anakin at the start of Revenge of the Sith leaves him worried that he’ll soon be drained, but a 20 second duel with Obi-Wan, and a 40 second duel with flash of brilliance Anakin Skywalker who makes him work “furiously” only tires him insofar as some surface breathlessness? The sources don’t limit his fatigue to only windedness, that’s not a solid position.
Now you've turned this into a game of semantics. The other quotes that say he's "tired" aren't mutually exclusive with the quote saying that he caught his breath in the same sentence that say a lot has been taken out of him. Having a lot taken out of him is clearly referring to him being tired.
Jake
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on February 16th 2020, 3:27 pm
@Latham2000 Now you've turned this into a game of semantics. The other quotes that say he's "tired" aren't mutually exclusive with the quote saying that he caught his breath in the same sentence that say a lot has been taken out of him. Having a lot taken out of him is clearly referring to him being tired.

No semantics here Latham, just facts. You want to limit "tired" to being winded, and I say that we can have both shortness of breath and drained reserves, something that makes the most sense after a minute of fighting - 40 seconds of which was pretty intense. If you accept the fact that Master Yoda, a man with a crazy large pool of reserves, is "exhausted" after lifting a pillar/engaging in a duel with Dooku for the same period of time as the fight before (less if you remove the defense portion), you accept that the "challenged" and "furiously" parrying Dooku who shows Anakin "the extent" of his powers being stripped of Force energy is just as likely - in other words, 100% confirmed. Please stop drawing this out with your insignificant finds.
Latham2000
Latham2000

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on February 16th 2020, 4:02 pm
@Jake I agree with you now.
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