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Latham2000
Latham2000

Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity? Empty Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity?

on January 22nd 2020, 5:58 pm
Answer.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity? Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity?

on January 22nd 2020, 6:27 pm
ok, now this is fucking weird....
Jake
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Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity? Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity?

on January 22nd 2020, 6:32 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
This is confirmed multiple times;

This scene changed all that, and we finally got to see Yoda fighting and using his full Jedi powers.

Star Wars Insider Magazine #122

Once again, their safety depends on Yoda’s unexpected intervention. Using all his formidable Jedi powers, only Yoda succeeds in tackling Count Dooku.

Star Wars: Attack of the Clones Souvenir Guide

Further supported by the fact that Yoda was so exhausted he had to use all of his strength to lift a pillar, leaving him spent at the end;

Count Dooku’s Sail Ship takes off. Obi-Wan and Anakin struggle to the exhausted Yoda, but it’s too late. The Sail Ship rises into the air and flies away.

Star Wars: Attack of the Clones Script

Yoda halted the falling tower, pushing it aside. Dooku made good his escape, his vessel departing the hangar even as Padme Amidala arrived with reinforcements. The battle with Dooku had left Yoda tired but unbowed.

Star Wars Fact File #086

As well as the endless quotes telling us Yoda wanted to destroy Dooku, which you can see (here)  A better question is "Was Dooku fighting at full capacity?" To which I would say; definitely not .
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity? Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity?

on January 22nd 2020, 6:35 pm
well, it was confirmed that yoda had not fought for years and was rusty, so there's also that.
CuckedCurry
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Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity? Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity?

on January 22nd 2020, 6:47 pm
No, he was not
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity? Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity?

on January 22nd 2020, 6:54 pm
mace windu asks yoda about it, and yoda says that his bout with dooku was enough practice.
CuckedCurry
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on January 22nd 2020, 6:58 pm
Depa Billaba, Agen Kolar, and Saesee Tiin would all seriously press Dooku. Dooku gets his teeth kicked in by all-out Yoda
Jake
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on January 22nd 2020, 7:11 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:well, it was confirmed that yoda had not fought for years and was rusty, so there's also that.

As you said yourself, Yoda considered that Dooku duel the only practice he’d need for the war, and if you can be restored to your former ability with just one fight, you’re barely out of form. Yoda’s also active and fighting in Jedi Quest, so we’re not talking about ages of inactivity.


Last edited by Jake on January 22nd 2020, 7:16 pm; edited 2 times in total
Latham2000
Latham2000

Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity? Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity?

on January 22nd 2020, 7:13 pm
Jake has presented sources that support the notion, but IIRC there are some depictions of the fight that show that Yoda was fighting defensively for a while and once he fought offensively, he came close to killing get Dooku, which isn’t mutually exclusive with what Jake’s sources say.
AlakanSpacewalker
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Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity? Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity?

on January 23rd 2020, 8:51 pm
Why wouldn’t he have been?
Jake
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on January 24th 2020, 3:10 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@Latham2000 wrote:Jake has presented sources that support the notion, but IIRC there are some depictions of the fight that show that Yoda was fighting defensively for a while and once he fought offensively, he came close to killing get Dooku, which isn’t mutually exclusive with what Jake’s sources say.

I do think my sources can coexist with the various depictions of the fight, Latham. I will say however, that while the early versions do have Yoda standing there unmoving as Dooku rains blow after blow down on him and then quickly overpowering, as we get closer to the movie's completion George seems to have a change of heart, conveying to Animation Director Rob Coleman that he wanted an 'amazing clash between two ultimate masters' - and just by coincidence, those sequences were changed;

What does George want? 

According to Episode II's animation director, Rob Coleman,"George felt that Star Wars fans had been waiting a long time for this moment, and that they wanted to see Yoda in combat. He wanted us to show Yoda ferociously leaping and fighting, not just standing his ground and deflecting incoming attacks. The results had to be an amazing clash between the forces of good and evil with two ultimate masters (Yoda vs. Count Dooku) of opposite sides of the Force in head-to-head combat." This is, of course, exactly what audiences got to see.

Star Wars Adventures Magazine #1

If you watched any of the featurettes you'd remember how closely Rob Coleman and George Lucas worked together on the final fight, spending plenty of time perfecting Yoda's facial expressions and movements as well as fine tuning the build-up and the duel itself (among other things), so he would know more than anyone what Lucas wanted. You cannot tell me with a straight face that you would describe any of the earlier adaptations as "an amazing clash between the forces of good and evil with two ultimate masters", where Yoda "doesn't move an inch" under Dooku's finest assault, with the Count then quickly disarmed and overpowered. So how about this fight;




I'd say it fits perfectly. The versions of the duel you want to use were changed by George from a quick, uneven clash between one master, and one apprentice to a brutal fight between two ultimate masters. From the get-go in the movie, Yoda is leaping around and defending himself from all angles, in stark contrast to the casual 'never moved an inch' stonewalling Dooku was initially meant to receive, so they cannot coexist.

This is not like the Revenge of the Sith novelisation/movie conundrum, it isn't a case of simply omitting one or more scenes, this is George completely changing that scene to fit with the "ultimate masters" narrative and presenting that as the final and finished product. Since this is George's ruling, versions that show us anything different can be thrown out. That's all under the assumption that your idea on my sources contradicting is correct, which I'm not buying; Yoda can be using all of his powers and still allow Dooku to attack him relentlessly in order to drain his reserves, and then launch into an assault of his own with intent to kill.
MasterCilghal
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on January 24th 2020, 4:18 pm
As Jake already explained fairly well, there’s no reason not to believe Yoda was fighting at full capacity. As he later explains in YDR, Yoda considers destroying Dooku an act of mercy towards him. The only source that has Yoda fighting defensively, at least that I’m aware of, is the AOTC young novel, which however only mentions Yoda not pursuing in a specific moment of the duel, not necessarily being unwilling to go all out. Furthermore it also mentions: 

AOTC young novel wrote:Fought well, you have, my old Padawan,” Yoda said gently, giving him the truth, though he knew that the Count would not want to hear it. Count Dooku had never been happy to merely fight well; the best he must be, always. But not this time.

Yoda being later barely able to lift a pillar as speaks volumes to Dooku’s ability to match him.
So sure, Yoda is depicted as superior but the idea of him holding back for some reason is not supported anywhere in the lore.
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity? Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity?

on February 8th 2020, 12:09 pm
Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity? 6363553-dooku%27s%20no%20match
^Just to let everyone know this exist.
SnowxElf
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Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity? Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity?

on February 8th 2020, 12:29 pm
@MasterCilghal @Jake
MasterCilghal: wrote:The only source that has Yoda fighting defensively, at least that I’m aware of, is the AOTC young novel
He also does in the AOTC comic at the beginning of duel. As soon as he goes for aggressiveness he instantly overwhelms Dooku here (See below).
Jake: wrote:"Was Dooku fighting at full capacity?" To which I would say; definitely not  .
"Count Dooku immediately unleashes his finest assault yet on Yoda" (see first panel below)
Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity? Un48m3wq0y9h
Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity? Por8hez6q8mb

In this fight Yoda is just waiting for Dooku to tire out. As soon as he does into an attack mindset he instantly wrecks Dooku.


Last edited by SnowxElf on February 8th 2020, 12:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
NotAA3
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Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity? Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity?

on February 8th 2020, 12:34 pm
Yes, let's ignore everything else that's been posted in this thread, and cherry pick specific parts of lengthy posts in order to respond with unsubstantiated claims. That's a good argument that'll convince people. Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity? 1289255181

SnowxElf
SnowxElf

Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity? Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity?

on February 8th 2020, 12:39 pm
^Also, Yoda's peer, Sidious, wrecked Dooku from across the galaxy - force chocking him. So the scaling that Dooku is comparable to Yoda doesn't really add up in the whole scheme of things.
BoD
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Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity? Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity?

on February 8th 2020, 12:42 pm
Yes, but tiring Yoda doesn't prove Dooku ~ Yoda, lol.
NotAA3
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Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity? Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity?

on February 8th 2020, 12:45 pm
@SnowxElf wrote:^Also, Yoda's peer, Sidious, wrecked Dooku from across the galaxy - force chocking him. So the scaling that Dooku is comparable to Yoda doesn't really add up in the whole scheme of things.

I'm sure you can prove Dooku was defending himself despite there being no evidence he was. Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity? 1289255181
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity? Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity?

on February 8th 2020, 12:48 pm
@NotAA3 wrote:Yes, let's ignore everything else that's been posted in this thread, and cherry pick specific parts of lengthy posts in order to respond with unsubstantiated claims. That's a good argument that'll convince people.  Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity? 1289255181


Lol what claims did I make? The only thing I did was post things from the AOTC comic.
SnowxElf
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Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity? Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity?

on February 8th 2020, 12:53 pm
@BoD wrote:Yes, but tiring Yoda doesn't prove Dooku ~ Yoda, lol.

That was a typo. It has been fixed. Yeah, in the AOTC comic Yoda wasn't portrayed as getting tired, although, Dooku was.
NotAA3
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Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity? Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity?

on February 8th 2020, 12:53 pm
@SnowxElf wrote:
@NotAA3 wrote:Yes, let's ignore everything else that's been posted in this thread, and cherry pick specific parts of lengthy posts in order to respond with unsubstantiated claims. That's a good argument that'll convince people.  Count Dooku vs Yoda in AotC - was Yoda fighting at full capacity? 1289255181


Lol what claims did I make? The only thing I did was post things from the AOTC comic.

You claimed:

In this fight Yoda is just waiting for Yoda to tire out. As soon as he does into an attack mindset he instantly wrecks Dooku.

Which happens in none of the scans you posted. Moreover, you cherry-picked specific sections of Jake and Cilghal's post and ignored the wider argument (i.e. Dooku being stonewalled by Yoda represents an earlier intent which was explicitly changed, so any sources showing such can be binned).
SnowxElf
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on February 8th 2020, 12:54 pm
@SnowxElf wrote:
@BoD wrote:Yes, but tiring Yoda doesn't prove Dooku ~ Yoda, lol.

That was a typo. It has been fixed. Yeah, in the AOTC comic Yoda wasn't portrayed as getting tired, although, Dooku was.
@BoD
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on February 8th 2020, 1:09 pm
Even if Yoda was getting tired (which he admittedly was in several sources), that is largely meaningless and can in part be down to form technique and the extent to which they use Force augmentation, as well as age, stamina, fitness level, etc. Yoda is a 2.2' tall, 870-odd being using an incredibly tiring form well known for tiring its users if a duel is prolonged and also most likely eliminating other physical ailments such as arthritis or rheumatism fighting a 6.3', very fit and active 80 year old using a fencing style known to focus on elegant, precise strikes aimed at reducing the amount of energy expended. 

That's not to say Dooku isn't near Yoda level, but to claim that Yoda being exhausted proves Dooku ~ Yoda is ignoring key factors in the duel.


Last edited by BoD on February 8th 2020, 1:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
SnowxElf
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on February 8th 2020, 1:18 pm
@NotAA3
Which happens in none of the scans you posted
Disagree:

With each failed thrust Dooku's strength weakens (first panel) it then shows a picture of Dooku with sweat on his forehead and his mouth open.

Sensing his opponents fatigue, Yoda at last shows why he is considered the most powerful Jedi (second panel) in other words Yoda sensed Dooku getting tired.

Moreover, you cherry-picked specific sections of Jake and Cilghal's post and ignored the wider argument (i.e. Dooku being stonewalled by Yoda represents an earlier intent which was explicitly changed, so any sources showing such can be binned).

Sure, Jake will probably reply to my post and we will see what he has to say about it, it might change his mind but prob won't. As to Cilghal's post, I was saying that what he described happened in another fight. 

I'm sure you can prove Dooku was defending himself despite there being no evidence he was. 

^Not sure if the fact that he was defending himself or not means much. The fact Palpatine did that to him from across the galaxy probably indicates that if he was nearby he could do that to him regardless.
NotAA3
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on February 8th 2020, 1:38 pm
@SnowxElf

Disagree:

With each failed thrust Dooku's strength weakens (first panel) it then shows a picture of Dooku with sweat on his forehead and his mouth open.

Sensing his opponents fatigue, Yoda at last shows why he is considered the most powerful Jedi (second panel) in other words Yoda sensed Dooku getting tired.

Your statement consists of two points. I probably should have clarified I'm disputing the second (red text), not the first:

In this fight Yoda is just waiting for Yoda to tire out. As soon as he does into an attack mindset he instantly wrecks Dooku.

When Yoda decides to go on the offensive the two engage in a portracted duel, he doesn't "instantly wreck Dooku" - absolutely nothing you posted proves that (a comic massively condensing the fight into a few brief snapshots isn't evidence).

Sure, Jake will probably reply to my post and we will see what he has to say about it, it might change his mind but prob won't.

This doesn't at all address that you ignored the wider message in order to selectively choose the parts you wanted to address. You're not going to convince anyone of your stance by ignoring half of what the opposition has proposed.

As to Cilghal's post, I was saying that what he described happened in another fight.

Showing that it ("it" being Yoda defending) happened in another source once again fails to address the overall message: Yoda defending doesn't necessitate he wasn't going all out, as opposed to just trying to tire Dooku out before attacking, and the fact that he struggles to lift a pillar after the duel shows he must have been very fatigued.

^Not sure if the fact that he was defending himself or not means much. The fact Palpatine did that to him from across the galaxy probably indicates that if he was nearby he could do that to him regardless.

If Dooku isn't defending himself then there's no reason to think Palpatine can do it when Dooku is defending himself (i.e. in a combative context), regardless of distance. You're trying to fight against the mountain of evidence showing potential parity between Yoda and Dooku with a feat that doesn't even show a massive combative disparity between Sheev and Dooku.


Last edited by NotAA3 on February 8th 2020, 1:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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