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MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
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Zonakin vs rage amped Luke - Page 2 Empty Re: Zonakin vs rage amped Luke

on January 23rd 2020, 4:36 pm
@AlakanSpacewalker wrote:he wasn’t hindered then how did Luke beat him so easily? And how dose Dooku shred someone who is merely 20 percent less than the Emperor?

Note that, aside from the fact that a 20% gap in the SW universe is not really quantifiable, Lucas was addressing potential there, saying that while Anakin’s potential was twice that of the emperor, Vader’s was 80%. We know for a fact that Vader was growing during ROTJ, so there’s no reason not to believe he would have increased even further, which we obviously didn’t see. Furthermore, the use of the word “maybe” from Lucas suggests me his point was to simply prove Vader’s state as an inferior to the emperor, not necessarily his actual, precise standing. At least that’s how I interpret it.
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on January 23rd 2020, 4:46 pm
@MasterCilghal wrote:
@AlakanSpacewalker wrote:he wasn’t hindered then how did Luke beat him so easily? And how dose Dooku shred someone who is merely 20 percent less than the Emperor?

Note that, aside from the fact that a 20% gap in the SW universe is not really quantifiable, Lucas was addressing potential there, saying that while Anakin’s potential was twice that of the emperor, Vader’s was 80%. We know for a fact that Vader was growing during ROTJ, so there’s no reason not to believe he would have increased even further, which we obviously didn’t see. Furthermore, the use of the word “maybe” from Lucas suggests me his point was to simply prove Vader’s state as an inferior to the emperor, not necessarily his actual, precise standing. At least that’s how I interpret it.
i thought i was the only one that think that :0
AlakanSpacewalker
AlakanSpacewalker

Zonakin vs rage amped Luke - Page 2 Empty Re: Zonakin vs rage amped Luke

on January 23rd 2020, 5:09 pm
Where the heck did my reply go?
AlakanSpacewalker
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Zonakin vs rage amped Luke - Page 2 Empty Re: Zonakin vs rage amped Luke

on January 23rd 2020, 5:29 pm
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:@AlakanSpacewalker:

I thought it was stated he was?

Sources state the opposite actually, that Vader "brought his full strength and power against the younger man". So no, he wasn't hindered, but fighting at the peak of his abilities.


SWFF 55
SWFF 17
COPL
NEC
RotJ movie: 
The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader 

All imply Vader was both hindered and suppressed. 

If he wasn’t hindered then how did Luke beat him so easily?

‘Learning curve and mega growth made him equal at base, a rage amp turned the tide in his favour.” 

uh, how exactly did he do it so quickly though?

And how dose Dooku shred someone who is merely 20 percent less than the Emperor?

Because that's a useless statistic that's unquantifiable and non definitive. Vader lacks the technique of lifelong masters (Which includes Dooku), has speed inferior to TPM Kenobi and is a match for Ben, somebody massively below ROTS Kenobi, who in turn is fodder to Dooku. Vader's good and can probably hang with TPM Maul, but that's where he caps out.

I just love how you’re trying to use a feat three years before his prime to lowball him. Remember Anakin was fodder to Dooku and three years later he bodied him and Luke was nothing to Vader on besbin but a year later he stomped him. So yes it makes sense for him to be a lot stronger especially when Fightsaber explains how he got much more skilled between ANH and ESB and RotJ novel says “Vader’s power had been greater than it ever been” also didn’t Palpatine help Dooku throw Kenobi because he wanted the fight to be between Anakin and Dooku? Now prove that Vader is lower than Padawan Obi Wan without lowballing.
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Zonakin vs rage amped Luke - Page 2 Empty Re: Zonakin vs rage amped Luke

on January 23rd 2020, 6:24 pm
@AlakanSpacewalker:

Citations needed for pretty much everything you just said. As for the rest:

I just love how you’re trying to use a feat three years before his prime to lowball him. Remember Anakin was fodder to Dooku and three years later he bodied him and Luke was nothing to Vader on besbin but a year later he stomped him.

Luke was rage amped, and Anakin overcame his fears. Both gained a huge emotional power up not applicable to Vader, and both vastly exceed his potential on top of that, and thus have higher growth rate.

So yes it makes sense for him to be a lot stronger especially when Fightsaber explains how he got much more skilled between ANH and ESB

Prove it was enough to close the 20 year gap between ANH Ben and ROTS Kenobi, and the ragdoll gap between Dooku and Kenobi. The same article also states Vader is beneath lifelong masters in technical skill, which includes Dooku.

and RotJ novel says “Vader’s power had been greater than it ever been” also didn’t Palpatine help Dooku throw Kenobi because he wanted the fight to be between Anakin and Dooku?

YT fan theories don't interest me.

Now prove that Vader is lower than Padawan Obi Wan without lowballing.

I'm analysing Vader based off feats and quotes objectively, not lowballing, which you'd realise if your mouth wasn't wrapped round his dick. As for Vader, he's above TPM Kenobi, I stated such in my post, but per Lucas he's definitively capped beneath in speed.


Last edited by DC77 (Reborn) on January 30th 2020, 4:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
AlakanSpacewalker
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Zonakin vs rage amped Luke - Page 2 Empty Re: Zonakin vs rage amped Luke

on January 24th 2020, 12:11 pm
Sources also state:

SWFF 55: Vader’s internal struggle against the faint spark and his soul that was Anakin had been thrown into high relief’s by the Dark Lords feelings for his son. The emperor demanded other obedience and unquestioning loyalty. Vader vowed to serve his Dark Master but the words sounded hollow.
SWFF 17: “Vader wasn’t trying to hurt his son, merely force him into submission”
Courtship of a Princess Leia: “so this is how it would have been if Vader tried to kill me.”
New Essential Chronology: Vader’s resolve began to flicker as he saw the good in his son” 
RotJ movie: “you couldn’t bring yourself to destroy me then and I don’t think you’ll do it now”
The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader: *explains the entire fight from Vader’s prospective*
Stuart Carapola (an official author): explained how Luke wasn’t nearly as powerful as Vader merely caught him off guard with the Dark amp.
Fightsaber: “RANDOM FACTORS” always tip the balance and skill levels are always subservient to the needs of the story”
All imply Vader was both hindered and suppressed. 

Yield friend I have 8 sources while you only have two or three at most.
DarthAnt66
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Zonakin vs rage amped Luke - Page 2 Empty Re: Zonakin vs rage amped Luke

on January 24th 2020, 12:15 pm
@AlakanSpacewalker: I can respond back to you here on DC’s behalf but, if you want, we can do an official SS to settle the debate?
AlakanSpacewalker
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Zonakin vs rage amped Luke - Page 2 Empty Re: Zonakin vs rage amped Luke

on January 24th 2020, 12:16 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:@AlakanSpacewalker: I can respond back to you here on DC’s behalf but, if you want, we can do an official SS to settle the debate?

https://youtu.be/Pzs_s_5zgQk
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Zonakin vs rage amped Luke - Page 2 Empty Re: Zonakin vs rage amped Luke

on January 24th 2020, 12:18 pm
OK, I’ll just get back to you here then. I think Underachiever responded for me in the other thread too, but I’ll move over any loose ends there to here as well.
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Zonakin vs rage amped Luke - Page 2 Empty Re: Zonakin vs rage amped Luke

on January 30th 2020, 6:51 pm
Vader (WHILE HINDERED AND HOLDING BACK) was superior to Old Ben (proving this by controlling the fight, forcing it into a location of his choosing, and Kenobi even throwing the fight cause he knew he couldn’t win and in order to let the Rebels escape) who isn’t that far behind his RotS counterpart who Dooku admitted he couldn’t beat in a straight up lightsaber fight in the RotS novel. Vader four years before his prime => Dooku. Luke completely bodied Vader in this state. As much as I hate to say it, Luke wins
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Zonakin vs rage amped Luke - Page 2 Empty Re: Zonakin vs rage amped Luke

on January 31st 2020, 6:48 am
Zonakin stomped a nigh-Yoda level being. Like stomped a TPM Maul level being. I think it’s clear whose feat is better.
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Zonakin vs rage amped Luke - Page 2 Empty Re: Zonakin vs rage amped Luke

on January 31st 2020, 9:01 am
IG (Exists) wrote:Zonakin stomped a nigh-Yoda level being. Like stomped a TPM Maul level being. I think it’s clear whose feat is better.
🇪🇭
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Zonakin vs rage amped Luke - Page 2 Empty Re: Zonakin vs rage amped Luke

on January 31st 2020, 9:03 am
@BoD I will legitimately SS you on Dooku vs. Vader if you ever wish to (after we finish our current one, or now, if you want, I don't really care).
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Zonakin vs rage amped Luke - Page 2 Empty Re: Zonakin vs rage amped Luke

on January 31st 2020, 9:16 am
After our SS, I'd be open to it.
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on January 31st 2020, 9:24 am
@BoD: Alright then.
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Zonakin vs rage amped Luke - Page 2 Empty Re: Zonakin vs rage amped Luke

on January 31st 2020, 9:26 am
What I can say for a fact is that the idea that ROTJ Vader is TPM Maul level is wrong.
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Zonakin vs rage amped Luke - Page 2 Empty Re: Zonakin vs rage amped Luke

on January 31st 2020, 9:36 am
I personally would like to weigh in, though I don't think that Luke is as skilled as Vader in a classic sense; the quotes do proclaim them being equivalent as of Return of the Jedi. How hindered Vader's skills were and how skilled luke is remains up for debate, but Luke in this state has fully embraced the Dark Side which is a scary scary thing. I would wager this luke is about half of what DE luke would be or perhaps full DS DE Luke level power (though that is just personal speculation) with this in mind I think it's reasonable to say that Zonakin would be more powerful but unable to simply Ragdoll ds luke.

For sabers Anakin is a unit and would definitely press Luke, but if Luke can contend with Vader's strength (stronger than Anakin) he again should be able to hang, combine this with luke's "instantaneous learning in battle" and "replication of his fathers form" which as we know "incorporated elements from all fighting styles even the highest most dangerous levels.", that leads me to believe that Luke can adapt and overcome anything his Father can throw at him here.
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Zonakin vs rage amped Luke - Page 2 Empty Re: Zonakin vs rage amped Luke

on January 31st 2020, 9:41 am
Isv wrote:I personally would like to weigh in, though I don't think that Luke is as skilled as Vader in a classic sense; the quotes do proclaim them being equivalent as of Return of the Jedi. How hindered Vader's skills were and how skilled luke is remains up for debate, but Luke in this state has fully embraced the Dark Side which is a scary scary thing. I would wager this luke is about half of what DE luke would be or perhaps full DS DE Luke level power (though that is just personal speculation) with this in mind I think it's reasonable to say that Zonakin would be more powerful but unable to simply Ragdoll ds luke.

For sabers Anakin is a unit and would definitely press Luke, but if Luke can contend with Vader's strength (stronger than Anakin) he again should be able to hang, combine this with luke's "instantaneous learning in battle" and "replication of his fathers form" which as we know "incorporated elements from all fighting styles even the highest most dangerous levels.", that leads me to believe that Luke can adapt and overcome anything his Father can throw at him here.

1. Vader would be more skilled in a "technical" sense.

2. The DE stuff is just wild speculation.

3. Proof that Vader's total strength (base + augmentation) is > Zonakin's? 

4. Luke may have insane learning in battle, but he also had the advantage of being up against an opponent that couldn't outright tool him in sabers. 

5. Proof that Vader's style is more dangerous than Anakin's? Anakin's has been (iirc) stated as having the least flaws out of any other's in the ROTS movie, including Sidious and Yoda. That in of itself should be sufficient evidence.
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on January 31st 2020, 9:57 am
@Meatpants wrote:
Isv wrote:I personally would like to weigh in, though I don't think that Luke is as skilled as Vader in a classic sense; the quotes do proclaim them being equivalent as of Return of the Jedi. How hindered Vader's skills were and how skilled luke is remains up for debate, but Luke in this state has fully embraced the Dark Side which is a scary scary thing. I would wager this luke is about half of what DE luke would be or perhaps full DS DE Luke level power (though that is just personal speculation) with this in mind I think it's reasonable to say that Zonakin would be more powerful but unable to simply Ragdoll ds luke.

For sabers Anakin is a unit and would definitely press Luke, but if Luke can contend with Vader's strength (stronger than Anakin) he again should be able to hang, combine this with luke's "instantaneous learning in battle" and "replication of his fathers form" which as we know "incorporated elements from all fighting styles even the highest most dangerous levels.", that leads me to believe that Luke can adapt and overcome anything his Father can throw at him here.

1. Vader would be more skilled in a "technical" sense.

2. The DE stuff is just wild speculation.

3. Proof that Vader's total strength (base + augmentation) is > Zonakin's? 

4. Luke may have insane learning in battle, but he also had the advantage of being up against an opponent that couldn't outright tool him in sabers. 

5. Proof that Vader's style is more dangerous than Anakin's? Anakin's has been (iirc) stated as having the least flaws out of any other's in the ROTS movie, including Sidious and Yoda. That in of itself should be sufficient evidence.

Wasn't expecting an attack when I clearly laid out that it was my opinion but you will receive a more formal response when I return to my PC and can get my scans.
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Zonakin vs rage amped Luke - Page 2 Empty Re: Zonakin vs rage amped Luke

on January 31st 2020, 10:00 am
So the whole point of the forum is to not challenge each other’s views, but state our personal opinion and... that’s it?

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Zonakin vs rage amped Luke - Page 2 Empty Re: Zonakin vs rage amped Luke

on January 31st 2020, 10:05 am
[size=17]
5. Proof that Vader's style is more dangerous than Anakin's? Anakin's has been (iirc) stated as having the least flaws out of any other's in the ROTS movie, including Sidious and Yoda. That in of itself should be sufficient evidence.

[/size]


That's not something to be said about his abilities. Yoda's for example are his height and age (the former of which Nick doesn't apparently regard as a flaw), Sidious' are his overconfidence and age, etc. Honestly, the only reason Anakin has the least flaws is because he's a lot younger than Sidious and Yoda, not because he's more skilled.
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Zonakin vs rage amped Luke - Page 2 Empty Re: Zonakin vs rage amped Luke

on January 31st 2020, 10:06 am
That's putting words in my mouth. I expected responses and I expected to deal with them but the things I outlined as my personal opinion IE: "I would wager..." etc weren't meant to be up for dispute because I disputed them myself. Most of what I said I can provide evidence for but I don't need you looming over me like a phantom just because you have nothing better to do with your time
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Zonakin vs rage amped Luke - Page 2 Empty Re: Zonakin vs rage amped Luke

on January 31st 2020, 10:10 am
what makes vader less skilled than anakin again?
Meatpants
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Zonakin vs rage amped Luke - Page 2 Empty Re: Zonakin vs rage amped Luke

on January 31st 2020, 10:15 am
@BoD 

So Sidious just developed more and more flaws in his style as he aged? Gillard made is quite clear that between tier 9 duelists, style is the deciding factor (assuming the environment is neutral); so having the least flaws in your style is logically gonna help a lot, no? And having a style with less flaws than Sidious or Yoda isn't anything to scoff at.

---

@Isv

So apparently participating in discussions (the entire reason of a forum) is me looming like a phantom over you? As for the "wager" point, I'm merely pointing out that it's wrong. My other points still stand. 

---

@lorenzo.r.2nd

See above.
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Zonakin vs rage amped Luke - Page 2 Empty Re: Zonakin vs rage amped Luke

on January 31st 2020, 10:18 am
im legit bad at finding shit. what should i be looking for here?
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