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Latham2000
Latham2000
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What was Darth Maul's Potential? Empty What was Darth Maul's Potential?

on January 18th 2020, 2:21 pm
How powerful would Maul have become had he not been cut in half by Kenobi, but killed Kenobi, escaped Naboo and carried on his life as normal, and let's also remove Anakin from the picture and say that he got crushed by Maul's, Bloodfin.

Canon is also allowed, I posted this in the Legends section because Legends has fleshed out Maul's upbringing more than Canon IIRC.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
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What was Darth Maul's Potential? Empty Re: What was Darth Maul's Potential?

on January 18th 2020, 2:31 pm
i heard it was higher than talzin's, so maybe above ROTS sheev.
The Fallen Warrior
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on January 18th 2020, 2:52 pm
Isn't there a quote that says Talzin restored Maul's potential lol, so like SOD imo
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
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on January 18th 2020, 3:00 pm
SoD level, probably.
Latham2000
Latham2000
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What was Darth Maul's Potential? Empty Re: What was Darth Maul's Potential?

on January 18th 2020, 3:19 pm
Talzin never restored Maul’s potential wtf, she restored his former TPM power and sacrificed some of her strength in the process.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
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What was Darth Maul's Potential? Empty Re: What was Darth Maul's Potential?

on January 18th 2020, 4:05 pm
beyond rots sidious


Last edited by The lord of hunger on January 18th 2020, 4:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
DarthAdi
DarthAdi

What was Darth Maul's Potential? Empty Re: What was Darth Maul's Potential?

on January 18th 2020, 4:06 pm
Above ROTS Sidious
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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What was Darth Maul's Potential? Empty Re: What was Darth Maul's Potential?

on January 18th 2020, 4:35 pm
@DarthAdi wrote:Above ROTS Sidious

Yep, Sidious remarked that Maul could one day be stronger than him, and Lucas has said Sidious sought an apprentice who would be more powerful than himself. Many sources consider Maul a legitimate apprentice of Sidious's.
The Lost
The Lost
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What was Darth Maul's Potential? Empty Re: What was Darth Maul's Potential?

on January 18th 2020, 10:13 pm
Characters don't really have a hard cap on their potential, just a soft midichlorian cap (and Sidious, as a Banite Sith, observed Maul's midichlorian count with more accuracy than the Jedi's own testing machine when he said that Maul had enough potential to surpass him and carry on the RoT). Also...
"I expect much from you, Darth Maul, only because I alone grasp your true potential for greatness in the dark side.”


[...]


Stepping away from the holovid unit, Darth Sidious opened his eyes and crossed the floor of the LiMerge Tower to the turbolift, his mind already teeming with a collision of thoughts.


As with any mission involving Maul, the situation that Sidious was creating on Cog Hive Seven was not entirely stable. The Sith Lord harbored no delusions about his apprentice’s ambition or pride, or how closely those elements were linked to the anger that was constantly sweltering inside his apprentice, fermenting as Maul’s power continued to intensify. Locked in unswerving allegiance to their cause, the Zabrak’s heart was a reactor of pure, distilled rage.


And that rage will serve him well.


Yes. When Sidious reflected back on the years of training that Maul had endured, proving himself repeatedly against the worst that the galaxy had to offer, he felt an unmistakable pride in his apprentice’s strength and fortitude. By definition, Cog Hive Seven was an environment that no one survived, yet Maul had already established himself as a dominant presence without relying on the Force. Despite what he’d said to Maul, Sidious felt an increasing respect for what his apprentice continued to achieve. In the fullness of time, such abilities would continue to serve him better than he could possibly imagine.


―Maul: Lockdown
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on January 18th 2020, 10:29 pm
pretty much that ^^ thanks mah man
Corvinus
Corvinus

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on January 20th 2020, 9:03 am
Maul had the potential to surpass Sidious, but was hindered by cybernetics and confidence issues like Vader was.

Note I am not saying he had Anakin's potential.
Latham2000
Latham2000
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on February 20th 2020, 6:38 pm
@ILS I think these sources declare the matter of Maul's full potential very clear:

"Of all the uncounted trillions of sentient beings that populated the Galaxy, only one was deserving of respect: Darth Sidious. The man who dared to dream of conquering not just a world or star system, but an entire Galaxy. The man who had taken the young Maul from a backwater planet and raised him to be his successor. He owed Darth Sidious everything." -- Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter.
"The implications of this possibility made Maul catch his breath. For all Darth Sidious’s talk of his role as his apprentice and eventual successor, Maul still felt precious little connection to the Sith grand plan for the galaxy and his place within it. At the Dark Lord’s command, he’d spent years training on Orsis and then on Coruscant in the LiMerge Building, enduring years of privation and the harshest imaginable discipline while awaiting his Master’s visits." -- Maul: Lockdown.
"Of all the beings in the galaxy, the Dark Lord had chosen him to serve as his apprentice and eventual successor, and yet Darth Sidious had neglected to equip him with the very tools he would need to carry the Sith imperative forward." -- Darth Plagueis Novel.

One could argue that the second quote is from Maul's perspective if they wanted to be a smartass because of how it's phrased, but the first and third quote are evidently not Maul's perspective.
The Lost
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on February 20th 2020, 6:48 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
We also know that Sidious was lying to Plagueis about everything, including having an almost filial relationship with Maul. Anyway, TCW basically retconned it so that Maul was 100% going to be a successor or at least a potential successor, and thankfully, works like Wrath of Darth Maul, Darth Plagueis and Restraint quickly shoehorned in an origin story retcon for Maul before Disney. Shadow Conspiracy and the tie-in comics are also legends. It's not really a debate.

Also... Talzin is a peer of Sheev's. She's Maul's biological mother. She birthed Savage, whose raw power is obviously staggering given the shit he pulls in TCW with minimal training, experience or control over his powers (although I guess he's amped up on Nightsister magic, but that doesn't counter the "never Maul's equal" quotes). And Maul was so powerful that the Nightsisters were scared of him when he was less than a year old... not Savage, but Maul (you have the quotes about Savage "never being Maul's equal"). Sheev was so interested in Maul he was willing to burn his bridges with Talzin despite coveting her secrets and not wanting to make an enemy out of her.
Latham2000
Latham2000
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What was Darth Maul's Potential? Empty Re: What was Darth Maul's Potential?

on February 21st 2020, 7:42 am
@ILS Indeed. Interestingly enough, the first source that I cited i.e. Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter, saying that Maul was chosen by Sidious to be his successor, is actually a pre-TCW source because it was published in 2001. The vast majority of the sources of course, are influenced by TCW, but the concept of Maul having Sidious+ level potential has been been toyed around with even before George Lucas retconned his supposed death in The Phantom Menace. Moreover, the same source that says Savage was never Maul's equal also says that Dooku intended to use Savage to overthrow Sidious, which reinforces the aforementioned sources on Maul's potential because Maul and Savage are brothers sharing the same blood:

"After Nightbrother Savage Opress is handpicked by Asajj Ventress to become her apprentice, Mother Talzin uses dark magic to grant him fearsome abilities and to ensure his loyalty. He kills his fellow Nightbrother Feral to prove his allegiance. Mother Talzin offers him to Count Dooku as a dark acolyte. Dispatched alone to the Devaron system, Opress slaughters Jedi Master Halsey and his apprentice Knox. Impressed, Dooku accepts Opress as his Sith apprentice, intending to use him to overthrow his own Sith master, Darth Sidious. However, Ventress subjects Opress to brutal training in order to pit him against Dooku.
 

(...)

Noting the growing power of the brothers, Sidious confronts Savage Opress and Maul on Mandalore. As he dies, Opress expresses regret that he was never Maul's equal." ― Ultimate Star Wars New Edition: The Definitive Guide to the Star Wars Universe (2019).

What was Darth Maul's Potential? 2
The Lost
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on February 21st 2020, 7:51 am
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
Indeed. There's sort of three iterations Maul went through. Pre-Plagueis novel/Pre-TCW when he was a tattooed Iridonian and was the only Sith Lord around circa TPM other than Sidious (Plagueis had no origin story yet). In these sources Maul is still called a successor and accoladed as being an excellently trained Jedi killer.

Then there's the kind of early TCW/Plagueis novel stuff where it's not yet been made clear what Maul's role was going to be had he survived Naboo, only that he knew there would be a clone war. He has vague Dathomir origins and expresses doubt of his standing in the stories like Restraint. This is where Sidious' shit talking in Book of Sith and the lies he told in the Darth Plagueis novel were most commonly used against Maul.

Then there's the bonafide "rival" iteration where its made clear through interviews, the website, comics, SC novel, Son of Dathomir, The Lawless and all the following material that Maul is not only a bonafide Rule of Two Sith capable of carrying on the tradition, and not only the powerful offspring of Talzin, but someone Sidious feels he needs to personally deal with.

Vader has a similar arc of evolution too. Classic OT Vader is updated by some more modern sources like TFU, Vader novels, then post Disney he's completely changed and is even considered comparable to Sheev in some sources - a far cry from getting his ass kicked by TPM Maul in the resurrection comic.
Latham2000
Latham2000
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What was Darth Maul's Potential? Empty Re: What was Darth Maul's Potential?

on February 21st 2020, 8:17 am
ILS wrote:Indeed. There's sort of three iterations Maul went through. Pre-Plagueis novel/Pre-TCW when he was a tattooed Iridonian and was the only Sith Lord around circa TPM other than Sidious (Plagueis had no origin story yet). In these sources Maul is still called a successor and accoladed as being an excellently trained Jedi killer.

Then there's the kind of early TCW/Plagueis novel stuff where it's not yet been made clear what Maul's role was going to be had he survived Naboo, only that he knew there would be a clone war. He has vague Dathomir origins and expresses doubt of his standing in the stories like Restraint. This is where Sidious' shit talking in Book of Sith and the lies he told in the Darth Plagueis novel were most commonly used against Maul.

Then there's the bonafide "rival" iteration where its made clear through interviews, the website, comics, SC novel, Son of Dathomir, The Lawless and all the following material that Maul is not only a bonafide Rule of Two Sith capable of carrying on the tradition, and not only the powerful offspring of Talzin, but someone Sidious feels he needs to personally deal with.

Vader has a similar arc of evolution too. Classic OT Vader is updated by some more modern sources like TFU, Vader novels, then post Disney he's completely changed and is even considered comparable to Sheev in some sources - a far cry from getting his ass kicked by TPM Maul in the resurrection comic.
There's also a 4th iteration of Maul...

"I took him from his home world, Iridonia, and raised him as I would construct the perfect weapon. I trained him in numerous exotic and forbidden martial arts, disciplined him constantly, and personally applied the Sith tattoos that were evidence of his complete dedication to the Dark Side.

[...]

Maul completed his basic training several years before the Battle of Naboo, and served me well as an assassin and extension of my will. As loyal as he was, I made no effort to caution him when I foresaw his death in a duel with the Jedi on Naboo.

[...]

Ultimately, Maul was nothing more than a tool."
Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force.

Very interesting, but also very inaccurate and inconsistent with the bulk of the lore.
Master Azronger
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on February 21st 2020, 8:21 am
@Latham2000 Eh, not necessarily. I can't think of a single person whom Sidious didn't think of as a tool.

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The Lost
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on February 21st 2020, 8:33 am
The Dark Side sourcebook clarifies that.

Even Darth Maul was not specifically trained to fulfill the function of assassin―his purpose was to kill Jedi. Darth Maul was so good at eliminating other impediments to Darth Sidious’ plans that the Emperor realized his need for assassins that were less like apprentices and more like operatives.

―The Dark Side Sourcebook

He served the role of an assassin but that wasn't what he was trained for ultimately. It was a case of needs musts because of the need to hide from the Jedi.
Latham2000
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What was Darth Maul's Potential? Empty Re: What was Darth Maul's Potential?

on February 21st 2020, 10:49 am
Azronger wrote:@Latham2000 Eh, not necessarily. I can't think of a single person whom Sidious didn't think of as a tool.

I was referring to the part where Sidious claims to have foreseen Maul's "death" on Naboo.
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