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The Lost
The Lost
Level Five
Level Five

Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit Empty Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit

on January 15th 2020, 11:31 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
This is something I've been pondering for some time now. It seems clear to me that there is a sometimes contradictory relationship between bodily and spiritual power, particularly with Sith, which is made confusing by the fact that the body and spirit correlate with one another most of the time.


A good way to look at this could be going to the beginning. Let's start with an obvious question. What is a Force Spirit, and how are they created?


Well, a Force spirit is primarily made up of Force energy, as all things are - I believe they are made up of Living Force energy. This energy is often referred to as "Force Essence" or "Luminous Energy", in short it is the very core life force of a living being. However, another vital component of a Force Spirit is that there is a consciousness, ego, ID, identity, mind, psyche, will, whatever you like attached to that energy. Without that, the energy would have no means of being shaped into a distinct spiritual entity - it would diffuse into the ocean of Living Force energy that pervades all living things.


Now, the question is, when a Force user is born, are they born with a spirit? Well, it's a tricky question that gets into chicken and egg territory, but I'll do my best to answer: the Force is what brings about life, not the reverse. There is a "Force" from which springs all space and time, the galaxy, the stars, the planets etc. This Force precedes organic beings like animals and plants. It can exist with or without them. There is also a "Living" Force, which I believe is conflated with the "Cosmic" Force described before. I believe that the Living Force is what is produced by organic life - it does not create or precede organic life (that is the Cosmic Force), but it is synonymous with it. Case in point:


Force users remark "the Force is strong here" when near locations that are abundant with life. The Nightsisters, namely Mother Talzin, derive all of their power from organic life. They use a specific type of Force powers called "Magicks" which uses "Spirit Ichor" as its fuel. Talzin is almost completely powerless if she is not near organic life, and is at her strongest on Dathomir. Whereas most Force users have a set baseline of power that does not diminish even in the vacuum of space, Talzin's power fluctuates wildly on account of this.


If organics do not produce the Living Force, then why is the Living Force not abundant everywhere? Why does its strength fluctuate in proportion to the amount of life nearby?


Okay, so now that we know that, we can know how spirits come about: a spirit is a distinct concentration of Living Force energy which has achieved sentience, and self awareness. It has an ego, an identity, a will of its own, etc as mentioned earlier. This takes place within a body, e.g a human body with a brain. As the body grows, and the brain develops, the Spirit which is composed of Living Force energy grows in tandem. As the cognitive function of the body develops, the personality and identity of the spirit becomes stronger, more stable, more distinct and more complex. Notice that a plant has no sense of self, personality, spirit, will or mind - it is just a plant.


So, this tells us something extremely important: the spirit is not pre-ordained or predetermined in anyway. It does not float down from heaven preformed with an ego and identity looking for a body to jump into. The Spirit grows organically within the living cocoon of the body, identifies itself with the body and its organic, material existence. 


However, and this is key, the spirit is not literally the body. It is initially tethered to the body, grows within its confines, and uses it as a point to anchor itself to. Organics give rise to Living Force energy, but they are not the same thing, the same way that heat gives rise to fire but is not fire itself. Also, fire needs heat to exist, and in the same way, spirits need organic or at least Living Force-abundant objects to tether to, or it diffuse into the original Cosmic Force (barring a few extraordinary exceptions...).


Now, what happens if the body dies? Well, 99% of the time, the spirit dies. Or, to put it another way, it goes to a kind of after life that has been given many names over the years, such as the nether world of the Force, the Void (which is sometimes conflated mistakenly with the void of space) and Chaos (where it is believed Sith spirits go to suffer for eternity). For Sith, this process is painful, as they cling onto their distinct identity and feel their identity be ripped apart forcibly, whereas Jedi do not see death as the end, but simply as a natural process, and go peacefully along. Some Sith persist after death as spirits and anchor themselves to a Dark Side nexus, retaining their identity from their material life, and some Jedi become Ghosts, appearing to retain their identity while returning to the Cosmic Force.


Now, as its clear from the above, while the body gives rise to the spirit, unlike my heat-fire analogy, the spirit does not necessarily need its original body to exist. The Spirit has an ego and identity, a name, a sense of self and personality, memory and so on, and its powers were shaped in the cocoon of the body, so there is a strong correlation between the two. The fallacy, however, is thinking that the spirit is directly contingent on the state the body is in: case in point, when a body is dead, the spirit can keep living in some form. We have examples of Essence Transfer where spirits possess a new body, or even share it with the host, or an object like the Muur Talisman. Theoretically, with enough effort, a spirit could even massively change its identity to take on a new form, appearance and personality, but that would be extremely difficult and dangerous. For a spirit to remain distinct, it requires a strong sense of self - otherwise it would end up as indistinct in the pool of Living Force energy as a plant, completely lacking in any uniquely identifiable qualities.


We can now finally get to the title of this thread: it appears clear to me that, in some extreme cases, certain Spirits become so immensely powerful, that their original organic shell is inadequate to express their full power: the spirit has outgrown the original vessel which gave rise to it, similar to a caterpillar becoming a butterfly.


Now, this shouldn't be confused with dark side corruption, so I'll explain the difference: dark side corruption is defined by the dark sided nature, or alignment, of Living Force energy. This is defined by phenomena such as death, chaos, destruction, basically, where organic things are dead, in the process of dying, being destroyed or causing the displacement of matter, there is the dark side. We have examples of this across the lore, where if a lot of death has occurred, an unsettling dark side signature is left behind, or if the galaxy as a whole is in a state of war, chaos, death and misery, it is felt as if the dark side is particularly strong or the Force is "out of balance". Dark side corruption in humans is seen with the likes of Darth Malgus: yellow eyes, pallid skin etc.


It's easy to conflate the former and the latter, so I'll give an example that hopefully makes sense: Malgus is badly corrupted by the destructive energies of the dark side, however, he can use his full power without destroying his body. Sidious, while corrupted by the dark side as well, is also at risk of destroying his body by using his full power. This is because of an overload of energy. It just so happens that this energy is dark side aligned, and that may make it even worse, but his bodily disintegration is contingent on excess energy rather than the corruption of the dark side. Case in point: we have examples of Luke Skywalker or Galen Marek or Dorsk 81 having their bodies overloaded with excess energy to the point of damage or death which is explicitly non-dark side aligned... I don't want to say it is purely light side aligned as this is typically defined as more of a healing energy, but we can at least say it is different from the purely corruptive dark side energy.


Another slightly different example is with Valkorion: his body was not at risk of being destroyed, however, he wanted to forge the Outlander into a supreme vessel for his power, one greater than his own organic vessel.


These are examples of there being a differential relationship between the condition of the body and the spirit.


As I've talked about in other places, spirits are also correlate with but are subtly distinct from their body in the sense that they can sustain metaphysical "wounds". An example of this is some kind of unresolved psychological or emotional trauma that the character has not resolved. It is not a physical wound, but nonetheless, a Jedi Healer would be able to perceive through the Force a spiritual injury, and would use Force Healing to mend it. This is related to the fact that the Consciousness or Mind in SW is quite literally imprinted onto and apart of the Force Essence which makes up the whole Spirit. We have even seen that memories can be extracted from the spirit and, when held in a vacuum, are literally composed of Force energy. The function of the brain that stores information as memories gives rise to the Force Energy which composes the memories that spirits keep even after departing the body.


This leads me to a point that has received too little attention for my liking, which is that what is "good" or "bad" for the body is, not always but some of the time, inversely good or bad for the spirit. In other words, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.


To take a line from Darth Maul, when he was left to rot as an amputee on a junk planet, eating raw vermin for 12 years: "My anger kept my spirit intact, even though my body was not."


And what happened to Maul after he was healed by Talzin? The experience of suffering actually acted as a catalyst of growth for his spirit, even though it took a toll on and weakened his body. He was missing two legs, many of his midichlorians, and thus his ability to channel the Force, but because his spirit had grown more powerful, he overcame the difference and grew more powerful in real terms anyway.


Something I find interesting is with the case of Vader in his suit: we all know that his ability to channel energy is irrevocably blunted by his missing organic tissue, but Sidious thought that Vader's issues were psychological rather than physical. This was true, Vader did have psychological and emotional issues that blocked some of his potential power, but he was also constrained by his weakened body, as Lumiya pointed out. Plagueis did not even believe in Force spirits: when confronted with Marka Ragnos' spirit, he thought it was some kind of illusion, and he rejected the idea that Darth Gean or Malak were weakened by their prosthetics. I believe this is caused by the fact that these characters do not see what lies beyond their corporeal existence, at least not fully: they cling to life so eagerly that they think their power is defined by their mundane constitution. If Sidious or Plagueis do not think Vader's power is limited by his missing limbs, it belies the false belief that Vader's body is not a mere vessel. If they believe his issues to be psychological, it belies the belief that he has no greater power within that he simply can't access, but that he is simply too weak mentally to use his power. In their mind, a missing arm is irrelevant if you simply believe in your power. There is an element of truth to this but it ignores the differential relationship of body and spirit.


Vader did get over his psychological issues, and felt more powerful than ever in RotJ. And in a particular moment of enlightenment, he took on the full fury of Sidious' lightning and threw him down a reactor shaft, something he could never have done even at the height of his powers without the suit. This, I believe, is because his spirit, despite being housed in an inadequate vessel, had grown, solidified and gained more clarity, control and raw power than ever before.


I also believe that the likes of Old Ben had achieved a similar kind of spiritual enlightenment, despite physically being weaker than before. Ben understood the secret of "Luminous Beings", that a Jedi's strength comes from his spirit, which is interconnected to all things, not this "crude flesh" - which is why he believes he is more powerful in death than in life. And in a sense, this is true. Ben was described as more connected to the Force and more powerful in ANH, even though he was combatively weaker.


There are a few cases I want to address that are extremely exceptional, and can only be truly appreciated in light of what has been said above: that of beings who have experienced death and returned to life, knowing the fundamental truth that so many others failed to understand. That death is not the end, but a pathway to something greater - that is, a greater understanding of the Force.


Revan died a physical death, and part of his spirit, the part that was ready to die, left his body. The part that wanted to keep fighting remained, animated his corpse, and claimed that through death he has returned stronger than ever.


Valkorion was said to return more powerful after each death and rebirth inside a new vessel.


Darth Krayt spoke at length about how after dying, he drove the vestige of his consciousness and life force into his dead body, and slowly but surely returned to life. He said, and this is corroborated by Jan Duursema, that he had a new understanding of how he saw the galaxy and the Force, that death was not the end, and his powers increased as a result. Its also during this time that his powers of Foresight are put on display as he seems to be able to manipulate and predict the actions of his enemies with enhanced clarity. I also think some of this is to do with his learning of Shatterpoint and him healing his metaphysical/psychic wounds, but he himself places special importance on experiencing and returning from death. For this reason he kills and brings back Cade Skywalker, and sure enough, as a result Cade later explains that his understanding of the Force, and the interconnected relationship of all things has grown deeper. 


While we are here, I believe now is a good time to explain why I think Krayt did so surprisingly well Beyond Shadows despite the fact he is not even a Yoda-level prodigy, let alone Luke, and also that a "great deal of his strength" had already been lost to the Vong coral seeds eating him alive: it is because his spirit had been empowered through overcoming a never ending series of challenges, not the least of which is a constant struggle and exercise of willpower to resist the coral seeds taking over his mind and body. What destroyed his body counterintuitively empowered his spirit, similar to Darth Maul. In Beyond Shadows, the spirit is only slightly tethered to the body and is largely free of its restraints, so it makes sense that in this realm Krayt could cut loose in a way he would usually be unable to.


Finally, we come to Darth Sidious: a spirit so powerful that he threatened to disintegrate his body, a being more energy than flesh, a dark side nexus in his own right. However, there is something even more profound to discuss: when Sidious died, his spirit was marooned in the void of space for a year, with no Living Force energy to anchor to. He was described as resisting Chaos, the disintegration of his identity and dissolving into the Force. How could this be possible? The answer, I think, is that much like a Jedi Force Ghost, Sidious had interwoven his very being into the fabric of the Force. He, in a sense, was the Force, an aspect of it in a cosmic sense. I believe this started with the Banite Sith, who spent a millennium weaving their collective will into the very Cosmic fabric of the Force, as they waited for a being to be born who had inherited their cosmic blueprint from birth - a being literally destined to carry out and make manifest their collective will. They laid down the fertile soil in the Cosmic Force which gave rise to Sidious, and when Plagueis met Sidious, he sensed immediately that there was something dormant inside of him waiting to burst forth, something he was born with. Sidious and Plagueis would then bend the Force itself to their will, diffusing the galaxy with the dark side as an act of pure will, and eventually, Sidious' identity and will became so strong, so solid, so embedded that it became a part of the Force itself, something self-perpetuating and undying. 


Consider that the Cosmic shroud that hung over the Jedi is attributed to Sidious himself, and that the Force being out of balance is only corrected with his death. Remember how we talked about how the Cosmic Force gives rise to life, that life gives rise to the Living Force, and this gives rise to identity? Well, in Sidious' case, the loop closed in on itself. His identity fed back into that wellspring from which it originated, and altered the very source from which all space and time originates. Just like the Force has a will, Sidious has a will. There is an "idea" of Sidious beyond just Sidious himself, an enduring Cosmic form, a will that gives rise to matter in its own image.


Case-in-point: when Sidious died at Endor, the Empire literally fell down around him. His will was their will. He gave rise to the Empire, it was bound to him.


I am going to take this a step further: Sidious, even after dying in Empire's End, even after the last of the Banite Sith had died, had made a lasting imprint on the Cosmic blueprint of reality which gave rise to later beings and events which echo his own will, and manifest in a similar form. I believe there is a similar phenomena which gives rise to all beings, such as the Skywalkers: Anakin, a being with the dormant power to surpass the Celestials, was born in response to the collective will of the Banite Sith. In fact, it's possible that whatever Cosmic will gives rise to what I will dub "heroes" actually precedes beings like Sidious. Case in point: the Jedi precede the Sith, and it is only in reaction to the Jedi the Sith are born. The Sith exercise their will, and in turn, a hero appears to course correct, e.g a Skywalker.


It is almost as if the Force needs an opponent, someone to contest it's will, in order to have a will. An opposite to define itself against. This is the purpose of the Sith. And when the Sith embed themselves too deeply in the fabric, they begin to do more than define the will of the Force but actually threaten to encapsulate, supplant, become a part of and replace it. In a sense, the Sith become so entangled with the Force that the line between what is "The Force" and "something opposing the Force" becomes so blurry that it is no longer clearly distinguishable what the will of the Force is.

I believe this has been what the Sith represent all along: the collective will of the individual, the will to power, to rebel. The will to refuse to accept the status quo of what reality is, and to shape it in your own image through sheer willpower and determination, to take control and power by force, to become the master of life and death, space and time.

Getting back on track, Sidious was the closest of the Sith ever to supplant the Will of the Force, which is why he gave rise to Anakin Skywalker. Yes, a virtually omnipotent energy field from which all space and time spring out of felt so threatened by the indomitable will, the very idea of Sidious, that it created a god to counterbalance him. And Sidious almost succeeded in taking control of this god, undoing the work of the Force and supplanting it for good... if it wasn't for Luke, and ultimately, for the Jedi. The Jedi are the champions of the will of the Force, it's proxy army which it uses to stop any being determined enough to try and supplant it.

Of course, I am using far too simple language and thus anthropomorphising the Force, but I believe it is best described as a force with a distinct will and nature, a distinct way of doing things. Perhaps one of those ways of doing things is to have conflict with itself, to hash out just what its own nature is by experiencing itself on infinite levels on infinite scales.

Back to my point... Sidious died in Empire's End, but I believe he left behind a pervasive influence on the galaxy. He altered the blueprint, he became so entangled with the Will of the Force that it continued to give rise to Sidious-esque phenomena. An example of this is reflected in Darth Krayt:

Before Sidious, A'Sharad Hett was relatively speaking unremarkable. Yes, he was of a powerful lineage, and was stronger than most, but compared to the likes of Yoda, Dooku and Windu he was not a prodigy. After Sidious, however, something changed: something gave rise to the being who would become Darth Krayt.

Through a sheer act of will and determination, ironically in violent response to Sidious himself, Hett had a vision of a new Sith Order, the Jedi in ruins, and the galaxy in the palm of his hand. And through a sheer act of will, he made this vision a reality. He quite literally inherited the Empire that Sidious had created, he according to his own testimony had bent the Force to his will and with the galaxy under another dark side shroud the Force was "out of balance" once more. Conveniently, at exactly the moment Krayt seized control, Cade Skywalker displayed his savant, prodigious ability to heal others, bringing them back from the edge of death, something Luke Skywalker considered unprecedented.

And just like Sidious, Krayt interwove his will so deeply into the fabric of the Force that when he died, his empire fell apart around him, all of the Sith, Sith Troopers and Cade no longer felt the perpetual presence of Krayt in their minds and through the Force. Cade felt this absence of presence both times Krayt died, as did Talon, Stryfe and the other Sith. Krayt was able to make his presence known to all who had touched the dark side in the galaxy as a simple expression of his will, forcing a vision into their minds, because what is it to make a ripple in the ocean when you are apart of that very ocean? It is effortless to force your influence over something when you are nearing the point where it and yourself are indistinguishable.

This is reminscent of the recurring dreams and visions that plagued Luke, Jacen and Cade: dreams of a dark man sitting on the throne of the galaxy, or in Cade's case, forcing him to kill his own friends.

And so deeply embedded into the Force was the echo of Sidious' will, Krayt's will, that when he died his Sith Troopers promptly fell into psychosis and killed themselves: their sense of self was so bound up in Krayt's psychic will that without him their only choice was to disintegrate.

Don't forget, also, that Sidious had plans to become omnipotent: he envisioned a future where he enslaved the collective consciousness of the galaxy to his own ego, like a hive mind, where they would literally be an extension of his will, and he would then travel from galaxy to galaxy replicating this until eventually there truly was no distinction between the Will of the Force and Sidious: there was just Sidious himself.

Now, a final footnote I would add is that the reason the Empire can simultaneously fall apart and perpetuate itself again after Sidious died is for this reason: imagine some force created wave after wave in the ocean. With that force persisting, the waves would get bigger and bigger and bigger, but if that force were removed, the waves would begin to get smaller. However, there would still be a ripple after the wavemaker left, a ripple reminiscent of that original wave, and in time it could give rise to another great wave in its own likeness.

The Force is the ocean, its Will are the waves, the Jedi are wavemakers who want only to echo the will of the ocean.

The original Sith are ripples from the Jedi, the result of their imperfections: thus they want to make their own waves, flying full in the face of the ocean they sprung from. These ripples became a wave known as Darth Bane, and this wave grew into a tsunami called Darth Sidious, which grew so large and monstrous it almost became indistinguishable from the waves that created it and now contest it, and even after this tsunami began to die down, its pervasive influence created the environment which could give rise to others in its likeness, such as Darth Krayt.
BoD
BoD
Level Six
Level Six

Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit Empty Re: Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit

on January 15th 2020, 11:37 am
Interesting points, but I think that this would only apply to beings like the Ones. If Sidious for example truly believed that his power was limited by a physical body, he'd do a Valkorion and use midichlorian shenanigans or trick his victim into undergoing more training to force their growth (whichever Valk actually did) to enable them to harness his full power. Alternatively, he'd create a form capable of containing his full power. We know he was capable of it, for one.
BoD
BoD
Level Six
Level Six

Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit Empty Re: Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit

on January 15th 2020, 11:37 am
Sidenote, but I genuinely love reading your posts, @ILS. They're so well written and the imagery is pretty compelling.
The Lost
The Lost
Level Five
Level Five

Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit Empty Re: Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit

on January 15th 2020, 12:08 pm
It's actually the opposite with the Ones: they are naturally imbued with divine power and do not need to seek new vessels for their power to escape death. Sidious' body was disintegrating from his power and his plan was to essence transfer into Anakin Solo as a fetus.

Sidious was not able to create a form that could handle his full power, he could only continually clone himself and essence transfer into his clones. Creating the ultimate Forceful being was the culmination of his and Plagueis' work but in the end all that happened was the miraculous conception of Anakin Skywalker.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Three
Level Three

Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit Empty Re: Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit

on January 15th 2020, 12:13 pm
This also kept my mind busy for a while, will read.
BoD
BoD
Level Six
Level Six

Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit Empty Re: Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit

on January 15th 2020, 12:14 pm
It's actually the opposite with the Ones: they are naturally imbued with divine power and do not need to seek new vessels for their power to escape death. Sidious' body was disintegrating from his power and his plan was to essence transfer into Anakin Solo as a fetus.

Sidious was not able to create a form that could handle his full power, he could only continually clone himself and essence transfer into his clones. Creating the ultimate Forceful being was the culmination of his and Plagueis' work but in the end all that happened was the miraculous conception of Anakin Skywalker.

Cheers for the correction on the Ones. I was more referring to their level of power and status within the Force. As for Plagueis, I thought their messing with midichlorians was an attempt to achieve immortality and domination over the Force. 

As for Sidious, from what I can gather his original body was perfectly capable of containing that sort of power. It was certainly capable of it by ROTS, and by ROTJ it also showed little signs of deterioration or inability to fully channel the dark side. The clones are probably a different case. The only time I can see a case being made that he couldn't channel the power directly through his body (thus the uncontrollable Force storms) is in DE, and even then there's no visible limitation on his ability to channel that power nor to contain it within his form, at least temporarily. That can also be explained by the unpredictability of cloning Force sensitives, where the cloned body is normally not as powerful or stable as the original.

There's also the case of beings like Anakin. As we see with Mortis, he's able to channel a far greater level of power than anything Sidious has ever possessed or could ever hope to possess. Anakin is able to harness his full potential and channel it without any negative effects. I'd argue Sidious' decline was a result of the unreliable nature of clone bodies and the destructive powers of the dark side on these imperfect clones, not Sidious' inability to contain this power. All we see is that these clones can only contain this power for a short amount of time, not that they hinder his abilities. If anything, all that would happen is that the more power he uses the faster they deteriorate, which at best would have limited him in his final duel with Luke.
Meatpants
Meatpants
Moderator | Champion of Darkness
Moderator | Champion of Darkness

Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit Empty Re: Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit

on January 15th 2020, 12:25 pm
^

Yeah, that's why in DE Sidious says that "long ago" he realised his body couldn't stand the power that ravaged his body. Heck, by circa ROTS he was desperately seeking for a way out of his decaying body. I would go as far as to argue Sidious was experiencing this difficulty as early as TPM.
BoD
BoD
Level Six
Level Six

Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit Empty Re: Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit

on January 15th 2020, 12:29 pm
Which again makes very little sense in a wider context. Anakin was able to channel a far greater amount of power with no negative effects whatsoever. Yoda was able to channel power comparable to ROTS Sidious with no negative effects. Even Valkorion (in his physical form at the start of KOTFE) was able to maintain that physical form for centuries with no negative effects, even with his rapid growth over the centuries and SWTOR Vitiate being described as a hugely powerful dark side nexus. Dark side corrosion will destroy the body in time, but that does not mean that the body can't harness that energy or channel it. 


Heck, by circa ROTS he was desperately seeking for a way out of his decaying body.

When was this a thing?
The Lost
The Lost
Level Five
Level Five

Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit Empty Re: Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit

on January 15th 2020, 12:33 pm
We have mountains of evidence that Sidious' power was killing him. It's one of the main plot points of Dark Empire. His Force Storm is described as his "full, untrammeled power" because anything less is, well, less. Sources very literally refer to him as "more energy than flesh", "no longer defined by his physical body" but rather "a chaotic swirling dark side nexus which bursts open the fabric of space" (to paraphrase).

Someone like Anakin or Luke, who have a naturally higher midichlorian count, can put their bodies under more strain without hurting themselves because they have more midichlorians.
Meatpants
Meatpants
Moderator | Champion of Darkness
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Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit Empty Re: Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit

on January 15th 2020, 12:38 pm
BoD (Away) wrote:Which again makes very little sense in a wider context. Anakin was able to channel a far greater amount of power with no negative effects whatsoever. Yoda was able to channel power comparable to ROTS Sidious with no negative effects. Even Valkorion (in his physical form at the start of KOTFE) was able to maintain that physical form for centuries with no negative effects, even with his rapid growth over the centuries. Dark side corrosion will destroy the body in time, but that does not mean that the body can't harness that energy or channel it. 

1/ Anakin has more Force potential than anyone who ever lived, so his body would be able to contain it (he has way more midichlorians in his body than Sidious).
2/ Yoda forced Sidious to go beyond his potential, as Sidious had suffered damage to his body from the fight attempting to overload Yoda's defences with his lightning. Anyway, what's to say Yoda's body didn't have more midichlorians than Sidious'? Actually, wasn't he just absorbing Sidious' lightning?
3/ Not too sure about Valk, but he seems to be a special case.

*****
Yeah, there's a couple of sources including DE Endnotes that say right after ROTS Sidious was scouring for anything on how to prolong his life since his body was rapidly decaying.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Two
Level Two

Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit Empty Re: Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit

on January 15th 2020, 12:39 pm
i feel like the decay in Sheev's case may be from lack of a good physical build and the fact that he got that much power too quickly
BoD
BoD
Level Six
Level Six

Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit Empty Re: Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit

on January 15th 2020, 1:03 pm
This sounds a lot more like the dark side's destructive nature being to blame, not Sidious' raw power. Based on what you two have said, Sidious would have wanted a form strong enough to contain that power (Anakin Solo, Luke or Anakin Skywalker) as his own form wasn't strong enough (due to a lower midichlorian count since they've now been confirmed by TCW to be innately connected to the Force), and tapping into that full power would expedite the deterioration of his form as it did with Mace, probably Yoda (considering that he was exhausted afterwards) and the Force storm. Is that about right?
The Lost
The Lost
Level Five
Level Five

Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit Empty Re: Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit

on January 15th 2020, 1:15 pm
I addressed the subtle distinction between regular dark side corruption and energy overload in the post.

Yes that is correct and is what the source material reiterates. Sidious had to go through an extremely elaborate ritual in Sithisis just to put his normal Palpatine face back on, even when he wasn't doing any fighting.
BoD
BoD
Level Six
Level Six

Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit Empty Re: Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit

on January 15th 2020, 1:17 pm
So Palpatine's exhaustion when fighting Yoda, as well as his intensifying his powers against Mace for example. Would you view them as him drawing upon power his body can't sustain, and which led to physical harm/exhaustion (e.g. his exhaustion when fighting Yoda and the disruption of the ritual and his apparent rage when trying to kill Mace)?
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit Empty Re: Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit

on January 15th 2020, 1:42 pm
BoD (Away) wrote:Which again makes very little sense in a wider context. Anakin was able to channel a far greater amount of power with no negative effects whatsoever. Yoda was able to channel power comparable to ROTS Sidious with no negative effects. Even Valkorion (in his physical form at the start of KOTFE) was able to maintain that physical form for centuries with no negative effects, even with his rapid growth over the centuries and SWTOR Vitiate being described as a hugely powerful dark side nexus. Dark side corrosion will destroy the body in time, but that does not mean that the body can't harness that energy or channel it. 


Heck, by circa ROTS he was desperately seeking for a way out of his decaying body.

When was this a thing?

Everyone has a different midi-chlorian count and thus a different cap to containing their power, as well as a different amount of power in the form of their spirits. Anakin, Yoda, and Valkorion are all entirely incomparable (and irrelevant) to Sidious's case, which has been well-documented across dozens of sources.
BoD
BoD
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Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit Empty Re: Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit

on January 15th 2020, 2:05 pm
Makes sense, just trying to clarify when he would have overloaded himself. Examples that spring to mind are Mace, Yoda, keeping himself alive after Vader yeeted him down the reactor shaft, and the Force storm.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit Empty Re: Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit

on January 15th 2020, 2:17 pm
is it possible that sheev experimented with his body enough that it caused some of those as well?
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
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Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit Empty Re: Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit

on January 16th 2020, 9:33 am
@ILS Really interresting post even though I did not fully agree with some of your theories.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
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Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit Empty Re: Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit

on January 16th 2020, 10:54 am
really remarkable post
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Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit Empty Re: Differential Relationship Between Body and Spirit

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