Darth Malak vs Darth Caedus

Gueliston wrote:Forgive me for the condescendence for Malak fans, but what has he done to suggest he could take someone on Jacen’s caliber? afaik he has no feats other than getting beat multiple times in a row massively amped against a hindered KOTOR Revan and getting comfortably beaten (to say the least) by Mandalore the Ultimate.

So despite my bait post(very effective I might add) I'm not interested in a debate in the sense that in a debate We both have our opinions clearly defined and are ready to defend them to the death. I'm looking more for a good faith discussion on this subject. So I won't be looking to debunk Caedus, though I do have questions I will be asking, I will instead be providing a case for Malak's power. Where that power puts him relative to Caedus has yet to be determined(though as of right now my intuition is telling me that Malak should be superior). Let's begin.

If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and
holocrons, the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish
this. But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely
been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that
the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone
eras? Some commentators claimed that the ability to
survive death had been limited to those with a talent for
sorcery and alchemy, and that the use of such practices
actually predated the arrival of the Dark Jedi exiles on Korriban. But sorcery had been employed less to extend
life than to create illusions, fashion beasts, and resurrect
the dead. Powerful adepts were said to have been able to
saturate the atmosphere of planets with dark side energy,compel stars to explode, or induce paralysis in crowds, as Exar Kun apparently did to select members of the Republic Senate.

we have Plagueis contemplating the feats of the ancient sith like Exar Kun and Naga Sadow. In order to rationalize the grandeur of these feats he posits that the dark side may have been more powerful back then. The need to rationalize these feats implies that none of the banite sith preceding him ,including Tenebrous, were powerful enough to replicate these feats. Now one might say that one must have the gift for sorcery so this wouldn't be proof of the ancients's superiority over Tenebrous, who did not possess the gift of sorcery. However if this were true and Plagueis thought that Tenebrous was indeed more powerful than the ancients, his theory that the dark side was more powerful back then would not have been needed. Making it very likely that Plagueis believes the ancients were above all of the banite line preceding him. Plagueis's opinion is a very useful piece of insight for rarely are we ever privy to a master of the force examining the feats of two or more characters and determining which feats were more impressive. Plagueis being having an elite understanding over the force is the key thing here, since we fail to understand certain nuances about the force(Like whether TPing 10 non force sensitives or TKing a large boulder is more impressive). Plagueis's metric for determining the potency of feats would not suffer from these flaws, ergo his metric should logically be a fair amount more accurate than our own metric when it comes to this. With all of this in mind, I think its fair to say we can reliably scale the ancients, and subsequently Malak as well, above Tenebrous.

Now the catch is that Plagueis at his peak later muses that he is the most powerful sith lord ever, so that would make Plagueis>ancients. However, I'm tentative to make this proof of Plagueis believing he is above Malak as he wasn't mentioned. This is something to be noted as its known that the banite archives have certain gaps when it comes to their knowledge about certain individuals, as shown by Sidious knowing virtually nothing about Vitiate and wanking tf out of Malgus. This however doesn't affect their ability to examine and determine the potency of feats, which is what my scaling is built on. There is also the fact that amped characters would not be bound to his musings, otherwise you would get kriff like: Plagueis>Meditation sphere Sadow(1000xamp)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Sadow>Tenebrous. So SF Malak being amped considerably means he would not be bound by Plagueis's musings. When you take into account all of these factors, I think its safe to place SF Malak as a peer of peak Plagueis.

Azronger wrote:@KingofBlades

So despite my bait post(very effective I might add) I'm not interested in a debate in the sense that in a debate We both have our opinions clearly defined and are ready to defend them to the death. I'm looking more for a good faith discussion on this subject. So I won't be looking to debunk Caedus, though I do have questions I will be asking, I will instead be providing a case for Malak's power. Where that power puts him relative to Caedus has yet to be determined(though as of right now my intuition is telling me that Malak should be superior). Let's begin.

If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and
holocrons, the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish
this. But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely
been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that
the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone
eras? Some commentators claimed that the ability to
survive death had been limited to those with a talent for
sorcery and alchemy, and that the use of such practices
actually predated the arrival of the Dark Jedi exiles on Korriban. But sorcery had been employed less to extend
life than to create illusions, fashion beasts, and resurrect
the dead. Powerful adepts were said to have been able to
saturate the atmosphere of planets with dark side energy,compel stars to explode, or induce paralysis in crowds, as Exar Kun apparently did to select members of the Republic Senate.

we have Plagueis contemplating the feats of the ancient sith like Exar Kun and Naga Sadow. In order to rationalize the grandeur of these feats he posits that the dark side may have been more powerful back then. The need to rationalize these feats implies that none of the banite sith preceding him ,including Tenebrous, were powerful enough to replicate these feats. Now one might say that one must have the gift for sorcery so this wouldn't be proof of the ancients's superiority over Tenebrous, who did not possess the gift of sorcery. However if this were true and Plagueis thought that Tenebrous was indeed more powerful than the ancients, his theory that the dark side was more powerful back then would not have been needed. Making it very likely that Plagueis believes the ancients were above all of the banite line preceding him. Plagueis's opinion is a very useful piece of insight for rarely are we ever privy to a master of the force examining the feats of two or more characters and determining which feats were more impressive. Plagueis being having an elite understanding over the force is the key thing here, since we fail to understand certain nuances about the force(Like whether TPing 10 non force sensitives or TKing a large boulder is more impressive). Plagueis's metric for determining the potency of feats would not suffer from these flaws, ergo his metric should logically be a fair amount more accurate than our own metric when it comes to this. With all of this in mind, I think its fair to say we can reliably scale the ancients, and subsequently Malak as well, above Tenebrous.

For someone professing to chase a good faith discussion, this omittance of context is incredibly disingenuous:

While midi-chlorians appeared to resist manipulation of a sort that might imperil the balance of the Force, they remained passive, even compliant, in the case of a weak-willed being manipulated by one who was strong in the Force. Perhaps that explained why it was often easier to call on the Force to heal someone other than oneself. Extending life, then, could hinge on something as simple as being able to induce midi-chlorians to create new cells; to subdivide at will, increasing their numbers into the tens of thousands to heal or replace damaged, aging, or metastatic cells. Midi-chlorians had to be compelled to serve the needs of the body; to bestow strength when needed; to overcome physical insult, or prevent cells from reaching senescence.

If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and holocrons, the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish this. But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras? Some commentators claimed that the ability to survive death had been limited to those with a talent for sorcery and alchemy, and that the use of such practices actually predated the arrival of the Dark Jedi exiles on Korriban. But sorcery had been employed less to extend life than to create illusions, fashion beasts, and resurrect the dead. Powerful adepts were said to have been able to saturate the atmosphere of planets with dark side energy, compel stars to explode, or induce paralysis in crowds, as Exar Kun apparently did to select members of the Republic Senate. Other adepts used sorcery merely as a means to better understand ancient Sith spells and sigils.

Star Wars: Darth Plagueis

The preceding passage reveals that Plagueis's hypothetical about the ancients' being more powerful isn't even regarding Sith sorcery. "Extending life, then, could hinge on something as simple as being able to induce midi-chlorians to create new cells [...] If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and holocrons, the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish this." Naga Sadow and co. being stronger than Plagueis is merely one of his many possible explanations for their ability to prolong their life, not the recital of sorcery feats. Sith sorcery is, in fact, only brought up by Plagueis as just another alternative explanation for the same accomplishment of elongating one's lifespan attributed to the ancients. "Some commentators claimed that the ability to survive death had been limited to those with a talent for sorcery and alchemy." Plagueis then begins reciting feats of sorcery that have nothing to do with extending life and therefore, by extension, nothing to do with his suggestion that the ancient Sith might be more powerful than him. "But sorcery had been employed less to extend life than to create illusions, fashion beasts, and resurrect the dead. Powerful adepts were said to [...] Other adepts used sorcery [...]" Indeed, we know that Plagueis specifically lacks the talent for high-end Sith magic, hence why he considers the idea of those with the aptitude for it he lacks to be able to accomplish what he yet could not in slowing down aging.

From the start Tenebrous had told him that he lacked the talent for Sith sorcery, even though the inability hadn’t owed to a deficiency of midi-chlorians. It’s an innate gift, the Bith would say when pressed, and one that he had lacked, as well. Sorcery paled in comparison with Bith science, regardless. But Plagueis now understood that Tenebrous had been wrong about sorcery, as he had been wrong about so many things. Yes, the gift was strongest in those who, with scant effort, could allow themselves to be subsumed by the currents of the Force and become conduits for the powers of the dark side. But there was an alternative path to those abilities, and it led from a place where the circle closed on itself and sheer will substituted for selflessness. Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn’t master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.

Star Wars: Darth Plagueis

And as we know from the examples of Darth Bane and Darth Zannah, idiosyncratic talents for and shortcomings with different abilities do not correspond to general power level. Bane outlined three distinct talent trees for dark side users - elemental, telepathic, and sorcerous - and explained to his apprentice that most specialize in one while the abilities from the other trees remain inaccessible for the person. Zannah herself possessed the gift of Sith sorcery and could "achieve a power beyond the abilities of her Master," whose own capabilities inclined themselves "in another direction." And as such, Bane's own proclivity for Force lightning was entirely foreign to Zannah. Yet, combatively, neither was inherently better off than the other; and with regards to overall power level, Zannah was worlds apart from Sirak who could conjure lightning, and Bane would crush earlier iterations of his apprentice and other lowly sorcerers, or even Kaan, who was predisposed towards the telepathic talent sphere and whose feats in that department far eclipse Bane's.

"The Force manifests itself in many different ways," Darth Bane told her. "Every individual has strengths and weaknesses-talents they excel at and others that are more difficult."

The twelve-year-old Zannah nodded. Several months before, Bane had unlocked a new data bank of information in Freedon Nadd's Holocron. Though he wouldn't tell her what he had uncovered, he had added a new element to her training shortly after his discovery. Every two or three days he would put her through a series of rigorous tests and challenges designed to evaluate her command of different aspects of the Force.

Until today he had refused to discuss the results of his experiments with her, and Zannah was beginning to fear she had somehow failed him.

"Some possess raw elemental power; they can unleash storms of lightning from their fingertips, or move mountains with their mere thoughts. Others are more gifted in the subtle intricacies of the Force, blessed with the ability to affect the minds of friend and foe alike through the arts of persuasion or battle meditation."

He paused and fixed her with a long stare, as if considering whether to say more.

"A rare few have a natural affinity for the dark side itself. They can delve into the depths of the Force and summon arcane energies to twist and warp the world around them. They can invoke the ancient rituals of the Sith; they can conjure power and unleash terrible spells and dark magics."

"Is that my gift?" Zannah asked, barely able to contain her excitement. "Am I a Sith sorcerer?"

"You have the potential," Bane told her. From inside his robes he produced a thin leather-bound manuscript. "Hidden deep inside the Holocron, I discovered a list of powerful spells. I transcribed them into this tome. They will help you focus and channel your power for maximum effect... but only if you study them carefully."

"I will, Master" Zannah promised, her eyes gleaming as she reached out to take the book from his hands.

"My ability to guide and teach you in the ways of sorcery are limited," Bane warned her. "My talents lie in another direction. To unleash your full potential you will have to do much of the study and research on your own. It will be... perilous."

The thought of exploring the dark and dangerous secrets of Sith sorcery alone filled her with dread, but the chance to achieve a power beyond the abilities of her Master to comprehend was a temptation she could not resist.

"I will not disappoint you, Master" she vowed, clutching the tome tightly against her chest.

"And if you ever try to use one of your spells against me" Bane added as a final caution, "I will destroy you."

Star Wars: Darth Bane - Rule of Two

There was also his incredible command of the Force to contend with. Simple tactics like pushing an opponent from across the room were impractical against any foe with proper training. Both she and Bane knew how to surround themselves with an invisible field of energy that absorbed or repelled the most basic tricks taught to any Jedi or Sith. But Bane could unleash devastating bolts of dark side lightning from his hands almost at will.

Star Wars: Darth Bane - Dynasty of Evil

Bane stopped and turned back toward her. "Have you seen what will happen between me and my apprentice?"

"Ever since I came to this world to meet the princess I have dreamed of you both," Cognus admitted. "But the meaning is unclear."

"Tell me what you've seen," Bane ordered.

"The details are always changing. Different locations, different worlds, different times of the day or night. At times I see her dead at your feet, other times she is the victor. I have tried to make sense of it, but there are too many contradictions."

"The future of the Sith is precariously balanced between Zannah and myself," Bane explained. "Whoever survives our confrontation will control the destiny of the Sith, but our strength is too evenly matched for you to foresee the outcome."

Star Wars: Darth Bane - Dynasty of Evil

In similar fashion, Plagueis's (and Tenebrous's) own ineptitude for sorcery does not mean he would lose to Exar Kun in a fight, or that he is less powerful than him, or that he is incapable of other types of feats with the Force Kun would be unable to replicate. As explained above, Plagueis's suggestion that Kun was stronger than him was merely one of many theories that weren't related to sorcery at all. And as it pertains to the ability to extend life, Plagueis does not know how Kun and Sadow accomplished this: with the latter, it was hibernating in stasis through a combination of technology and sorcery; and the former did not even halt biological aging in the slightest, instead attaining a distinct form of immortality by separating his soul from his body entirely through in intricate ritual fueled by the life force of the Massassi race. None of that has anything to do with midi-chlorian manipulation or personal power in the Force. Had Plagueis known this, he would not even have brought up Kun and Sadow as examples; he coveted corporeal survival above all else and readily dismissed existence as a disembodied spirit trapped in a tomb, which would logically extend to spending an eternity slumbering in a coffin as well.





Darth Bane had referred to sorcery as one of the purest expressions of the dark side of the Force, and yet he hadn’t been able to harness those energies with near the skill as had his onetime apprentice Zannah. Bane’s disciples, however, believed that he had experimented with a technique of even greater significance: that of essence transfer, which he had learned after acquiring and plundering the holocron of Darth Andeddu, and which involved the relocation of an individual’s consciousness into another body or, in some cases, a talisman, temple, or sarcophagus. Thus had the most powerful of the ancient Sith Lords survived death to haunt and harass those who would infiltrate their tombs.

But none of this amounted to corporeal survival.

Plagueis had no interest in being a lingering, disembodied presence, trapped between worlds and powerless to affect the material realm except through the actions of weak-minded beings he could goad, coax, or will into action. Nor did he seek to shunt his mind into the body of another, whether an apprentice, as Bane was thought to have attempted, or some vat-grown clone. Nothing less than the immortality of his body and mind would suffice.

Star Wars: Darth Plagueis

Now the catch is that Plagueis at his peak later muses that he is the most powerful sith lord ever, so that would make Plagueis>ancients. However, I'm tentative to make this proof of Plagueis believing he is above Malak as he wasn't mentioned. This is something to be noted as its known that the banite archives have certain gaps when it comes to their knowledge about certain individuals, as shown by Sidious knowing virtually nothing about Vitiate and wanking tf out of Malgus. This however doesn't affect their ability to examine and determine the potency of feats, which is what my scaling is built on. There is also the fact that amped characters would not be bound to his musings, otherwise you would get kriff like: Plagueis>Meditation sphere Sadow(1000xamp)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Sadow>Tenebrous. So SF Malak being amped considerably means he would not be bound by Plagueis's musings. When you take into account all of these factors, I think its safe to place SF Malak as a peer of peak Plagueis.

There is nothing exempting amped feats from Plagueis's commentary if Plagueis himself does not know they are amped. He makes no mention of the role the Corsair played when he recalls accounts wherein "Powerful adepts were said to have been able to" "compel stars to explode," and talks of them like any other feat. If you take Plagueis's words on the ancient Sith as gospel as you have in your failed attempt to relegate Tenebrous beneath Naga Sadow, you should also accept his belief that if any Sith preceded him who matched his strength, he does not know of them, yet is aware of past Sith inducing supernovae, Vitiate living for a millennium, Malak losing his jaw to Revan's lightsaber, etc. That is, of course, only if you do not wish to commit double standards and are an advocate of good faith, as you claim to be.

And for the record, peak Plagueis would crumble any incarnation of Malak into a ball. The guy is a rival of Sidious, who is canonically Vitiate's superior. Malak is in a lower league. I'm not convinced he beats even Bane.

IG (Exists) wrote:@Gueliston: He has quotes that out him >> Exar Kun, and Exar manages to Tp the entire senate at once, whereas Jacen struggled with 100 military guys. Alek was pre prime with Amanda lore the Ultimate, and losing to Revan isn’t an antifeat.

Jacen also has nothing (bar DC’s speculation) that puts him at Malak’s level.

BreakofDawn wrote:@The Lord of Hunger Below DE Sidious, above any other iteration of Sheev.

The lord of hunger wrote:

BreakofDawn wrote:@The Lord of Hunger Below DE Sidious, above any other iteration of Sheev.

so quite possibly 2 most powerful sith in history right?

BreakofDawn wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:

BreakofDawn wrote:@The Lord of Hunger Below DE Sidious, above any other iteration of Sheev.

so quite possibly 2 most powerful sith in history right?

Yep. Can’t think of any other Sith that comes close.

IG (Exists) wrote:@gueliston: Well, Leland Chee has checked over the article before it was published and gave it his stamp of approval, and the specific portion that says Malak > Kun is “did it give him powers far greater than even Exar Kun”. This isn’t speculating if he has said powers, it’s asking what gives them

Fate of the Jedi: Vortex wrote:Had they flickered or shifted as Taalon moved his head, they might have been no more than reflections of the Pydyrian sun. But they remained steady, shining out from the darkness of the High Lord’s soul, and Luke knew why the Force was so full of portent that morning, why he could feel the Balance shifting toward shadow.

BreakofDawn wrote:Again, he had no control and wasn’t really a Sith at that point.

The lord of hunger wrote:

BreakofDawn wrote:Again, he had no control and wasn’t really a Sith at that point.

so how will the list of most powerful sith be?

BreakofDawn wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:

BreakofDawn wrote:Again, he had no control and wasn’t really a Sith at that point.

so how will the list of most powerful sith be?

Az is a better person to ask. My top 5 are Sidious, Plagueis, Vitiate, Krayt, Tenebrous.

BreakofDawn wrote:That’s fair. Vader and Caedus shouldn’t be top 5, though.