Starkiller vs ROTJ Luke

1-well to many sources including g canon statements and secondary sources agree with me 




2-ahh Luke has done pretty freaking impressive things with the forcé that can prove he could hold his own against sk to put some examples: being able to manipulate protón bombs this kind of weaponary was powerful enough to destroy a capital ship,send back with the use of the forcé Thermal detonators,being able to floor Guri etc

BreakofDawn wrote:[size=38]@The Apprentice
[/size]

he stomped him in their first fight,

[size=38]Annnd you're lying.[/size]

The apprentice knew exactly what to expect. They had dueled many times before. He had learned how to fight at the hands of the man in the black suit—the man whose face had been forever hidden from him. He knew the intimacies of his refined version of Djem So, a fighting style that incorporated elements of Ataru, Soresu, and Makashi. He had fended off many wild, slashing attacks that would have overwhelmed even an extraordinary Jedi Knight. He had borne the brunt of many psychological battles. He thought he was ready—and so the sheer severity of the opening blow took him by surprise. A simple double stroke, up and then down, it contained enough power to jar his wrists and shoulders and very nearly disarm him completely. The collision of their lightsabers was blinding. He staggered backward and found himself at the center of a telekinetic storm. His Master seized on his momentary weakness and hurled missiles at him from all sides, hoping to keep him off his guard. For a moment, it worked. Then the apprentice straightened and, with a sweep of his left arm, blew the missiles away. He blocked a savage slash that would have cut him in two and another that would have lifted his head
clean from his shoulders. Ducking low, he stabbed for his Master’s belly then flicked the tip of his lightsaber upward, hoping to catch the chin of Darth Vader’s helmet and spear him through the throat. The red lightsaber blocked the blow, but only barely. They parted for a moment to assess the brief exchange and circled each other warily. The apprentice understood that, until this moment, they had never truly fought as equals. His Master had either held back, or he himself had capitulated. Now, for the first time, they would see each other’s true potential.

Contrary to what you claim, neither knew the full strength or skill of the other. Here, they both stalemate. 

Where Darth Vader was strong and relentless, he was fast and sly.

Vader > Galen in strength while Galen < Vader in speed, mainly due to Vader's prostheses.

And there were ways to fight that didn’t involve lightsabers. Loose objects, accelerated to killing speeds by the Force, became projectiles that converged from all directions. Invisible fists clutched for throats or punched with the power of pile drivers. Floors tipped underfoot; severed beams stabbed like javelins; overloaded circuits exploded.

The two completely stalemate in telekinetic warfare.

“You are weak,” the apprentice said as his former Master launched a second series of bonecrushing blows, each one of which he blocked with elegant precision. Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent’s defenses. The apprentice vowed not to give him one. He whirled and danced around his Master’s defenses, testing them to their limits. “You thought I was dead,” he said, letting that small triumph spur his determination to new heights. Their lightsabers danced, blurring and sweeping and shedding sparks in a way that would have been beautiful had their intent not been so deadly. The apprentice felt the wild, joyous energies of the dark side flowing through him and he resisted its call, seeking a better way to finish the job. They fought back and forth across the observation dome. “I understand you now,” he said, still trying to goad his former Master into breaking his concentration. “You killed my father and kidnapped me from Kashyyyk, not just to be your apprentice, but to be a son to you. Was that how your father treated you?”

Galen begins using mockery and taunts to throw Vader off his game, however at first it completely backfires.

The intensity of Darth Vader’s attack redoubled. “I have no father.” The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader’s misses had been horribly near, but he felt no pain. He, on the other hand, had definitely struck a nerve. Glancing over Darth Vader’s shoulder, he saw the Emperor watching the duel, his face screwed up in malevolent delight. And the apprentice understood. A better way to kill … Not out of hatred. Whatever lay beneath that black mask, it wasn’t beauty or happiness. Only ugliness and pain would hide itself away for so long. Hatred would not be enough to turn the tables on Darth Vader. Reaching out with his left hand, he blasted his Master with Sith lightning. That broke the momentum of the furious onslaught, enabling him to stand and catch his breath.

An angered Vader was overwhelming Galen, burning his skin and causing his apprentice to "fall back" and have to rely on exploiting Vader's vulnerability to lightning to "stand and catch his breath." Note that his momentum was broken, as that will be important later on.

“I don’t need to hate you in order to beat you,” he gasped. “That’s something I will teach you now.” “You can teach me nothing,” Darth Vader’s leaden voice intoned. One black glove clenched, and for a moment the apprentice’s throat closed tight. He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room.

Novel Vitiate vs Revan situation. Vader focuses on choking Galen - who doesn't try to break the hold and instead pushes Vader - and is thus vulnerable to a counter-attack. It's pretty clear as well that "throwing Darth Vader backward across the room" doesn't literally mean he was blasted across the room, otherwise he'd have ended up on Sheev's lap.

For all his size and occasional clumsiness, the Dark Lord was sure on his feet. He landed upright and launched himself back into the fray.

Vader easily recovers from the push and easily gets back into the fight. Note also that Vader is hindered by his prostheses in this fight, displaying "occasional clumsiness" despite having 17 years to fully adapt. 

“I don’t hate you,” the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. “I pity you.” With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot. “You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn’t your idea. It was the Emperor’s, and it’s what he’s already done to you.” A strip of Darth Vader’s cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. “You are his creature just as I was yours—but you’ve never had the strength to rebel. That’s why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I’ll make sure you don’t, either.” Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot.

Galen's mockery and taunts begin to work here. Having broken Vader's original momentum, Vader doesn't try to overpower Galen as he did before, and instead tries to retreat. Note that every time Vader has been enraged he's launched into an offensive frenzy, both in this novel, against ESB Luke, and against countless other Force users. This is different. Rather than overpower Galen (as we have been shown he is capable of), he instead chooses to withdraw to collect himself.

“I will kill you,” he said, “to set you free.” The lightsabers flashed again—and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader’s lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice’s blade to slash deeply across his armored throat.

Galen exploits his superior speed and Vader's "occasional clumsiness", slashing him across the throat. This is where the duel turns in Galen's favour.

Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound. There was no blood. Instead of pressing the attack, the apprentice stood his ground. Despite himself, he was as surprised as his former Master clearly was. For a moment, the only sounds were the twin humming of the lightsabers and the wheezing of Darth Vader’s respirator. Then the Dark Lord laughed. It was an awful sound, empty of humor and full of mockery. In it, the apprentice heard a decade and a half of torture and abuse. Anger flared. He lunged forward. His former Master barely blocked the blow. A second scored a deep wound across his black-clad shoulder. A third stabbed deep into his thigh.

Galen, enraged, exploits Vader's briefly lowered defences and deals two more severe injuries: a "deep wound" across his should, and a stab wound into his thigh, where his leg connects with his prosthetic.

Darth Vader reeled backward, servos whining in his injured limbs and lightsaber shaking.

This is interesting. Let's see what it means when a machine is whining, with the help of three different real life examples of machinery. 

First, a boiler:

The boiler is buzzing or whining

A buzzing or whining sound coming from inside your boiler is a genuine cause for concern that is typically caused by worn pump bearings, a defective burner or vibrating fans. Unfortunately, these are all problems that should only be diagnosed and remedied by a qualified professional. Action should be taken sooner rather than later to prevent further damage.

Example no. 2 is from a car:

A whining noise from the engine could be due to problems with the transmission. Over time, like anything else, the gears of your car wear away with constant use. The transmission fluid may also run low and cause the whining noise from the engine.

Annnnd example no. 3 is from a water pump:

A loud whining or screaching noise can be indicative of cavitation. Cavitation results in the erosion of metal components. ... Cavitation results from demand for hydraulic fluid not being met. Typically (but not exclusively), this happens at the pump.

What do all of these have in common? A fault is indicated by a high-pitched whining sound. Which, as you can see below...

Darth Vader reeled backward, servos whining in his injured limbs


...is exactly what's described here. What's even better is that we have explicit confirmation that Vader's limbs were injured, weakening him and his ability to fight. So stop peddling the "Galen overpowered and ragdolled a combat ready Vader" kriff.

Vader prepared for combat again.

Look at this. It's as if Vader wasn't ready for combat at the moment when Galen ragdolled him. Imagine that. 

His power over the apprentice, however, was gone. His lightsaber went skittering and sparking across the floor, twisted out of his grip by telekinesis. The Force wrenched him into the air, as he had once lifted the apprentice’s father, and a barrage of missiles struck at him with increasing strength. He raised his gloved hands to defend himself, but the battery continued until, with a crash, the apprentice ripped the energy field generator in the center of the room right out of the floor and hurled it at his former Master.

This is great. Galen overpowered a wounded, unfocused and unprepared Vader. Such a great showing.

The generator exploded with greater force than he had expected, throwing him and everyone else to the floor. The transparisteel dome shattered. Debris rained everywhere. The sound of the explosion rang in his ears for an unnaturally long time afterward. He was the first to his feet, striding across the rubble to where Darth Vader lay face-forward, gravely wounded and stripped of his armor in places. Flesh and machinery showed through the gaps. Finally, some real blood was flowing. The apprentice stood over him with his lightsaber upraised and ready to strike. His former Master was trying to stand, feebly willing his massive bulk to move as it was supposed to. Servomotors whined and strained. When he rolled over, the apprentice froze. Darth Vader’s helmet had been ripped away by the blast. Beneath was the face of the man who had stolen and enslaved him, a pathetic, hairless thing covered in wrinkles and old scar tissue. Only the eyes showed the slightest signs of life: blue and full of pain, they stared up at him with undisguised

Annnd that's how the duel ends. Oh, and by the way? Before you try and say about the limbs, note how it again says that Vader's "Servomotors whined and strained". 

You have a fascinating concept of a "stomp" that lasted three pages and only ended with the use of taunts and when Vader was injured and unfocused.

and in their second he won while utterly exhausted

[size=38]Oh bullsh*t:[/size]

The echoes faded, and he felt a peculiar kind of quiet descend. The air was misted red, and every surface was slick with blood. He tasted it on his tongue and smelled it in his nose. His blood. A veritable ocean of it. He maintained a defensive pose, breathing rhythmically and deeply, regaining his strength. The tips of his lightsabers shook. He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being.

He began recovering his strength as soon as the fight with the clones ended, and you and I both know how quickly SK recovers from weariness. He then had several minutes on top of that when leaping from platform to platform to get to the top of the cloning tower, using one of the least strenuous Force abilities. 

when Vader had specifically geared his fighting style to defend against him.

No, Vader improved his technique by learning how to fight more cautiously and not giving into emotion. It was not specifically geared to fight SK. Hell, that's not even hinted at. 

Just quit with the exaggerations and half-truths, already. It's getting tiresome. He didn't even win in a straight fight, lmao. Vader is winning throughout the fight:


Vader’s defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller’s, every time. He may have defeated Vader before, but Vader had learned from that mistake. He knew the measure of his former apprentice now.


But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader’s armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn’t absorb it.

-


Starkiller found himself backed up almost to the edge of the cloning spire’s roof. One more step, and he would fall, and to fall would give Vader the high ground. That might not result in his death, but it would certainly end the fight. It needed to end now, or else it might never end. Blow after blow rained on him, forcing him back. There had to be a way to free himself and avenge Juno at the same time … but a stalemate seemed unavoidable. Any move he made was sure to lead him to an indefensible position.

SK even notes that he can't defeat Vader as he did before. The only time he gains the upper hand in the fight is when he - surprise, surprise - uses lightning.

Top tier post right here 

PD: are the sources about Vader ragdolling starkiller can be consider to be true?

Top tier post right here

Not really tbh.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:

Top tier post right here

Not really tbh.

Why not ?

There's some pretty glaring holes in it tbh, but I'll leave those to HP, since my stance on this subject is pro-Luke anyway.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:There's some pretty glaring holes in it tbh, but I'll leave those to HP, since my stance on this subject is pro-Luke anyway.

Well then... :3

@BreakofDawn

Contrary to what you claim, neither knew the full strength or skill of the other. Here, they both stalemate. Vader > Galen in strength while Galen < Vader in speed, mainly due to Vader's prostheses.

Enlighten me on how this contradicts anything I said. As is noted by the text itself SK doesn't understand how to kill without drawing upon his hatred/desire for revenge which he explicitly resists in this fight, ergo he's not fighting at his best:

The Force Unleashed Novelization wrote:The apprentice felt the wild, joyous energies of the dark side flowing through him and he resisted its call, seeking a better way to finish the job.

The Force Unleashed Novelization wrote:Glancing over Darth Vader's shoulder, he saw the Emperor watching the duel, his face screwed up in malevolent delight. And the apprentice understood. A better way to kill. . .

Not out of hatred. Whatever lay beneath that black mask, it wasn't beauty or happiness. Only ugliness and pain would hide itself away for so long. Hatred would not be enough to turn the tables on Darth Vader.

Also, Vader doesn't even equal Galen in this passage through his own merits, SK thinks he knows how Vader fights and underestimates him, hence why Vader nearly disarms him in a single strike. When Galen recovers he nearly kills Vader.

The two completely stalemate in telekinetic warfare.

Which is relevant because??? My comment was specifically Lightsaber combat-related, so I have no clue why you're bringing up the Force Power section of the fight. Anyway, as already clarified Galen was hindered, and besides I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with this, the fact that they stalemated in TK warfare does not mean they share parity in Force Power (not saying you said that - I'm pre-emptively making this point because I figure that's what you'll try to argue - I just don't see what other stance you could be making this point in favour of).

An angered Vader was overwhelming Galen, burning his skin and causing his apprentice to "fall back" and have to rely on exploiting Vader's vulnerability to lightning to "stand and catch his breath." Note that his momentum was broken, as that will be important later on.

Irrelevant, given that Galen was hindered and Vader was amped. This is not indicative of their base states.

Novel Vitiate vs Revan situation. Vader focuses on choking Galen - who doesn't try to break the hold and instead pushes Vader - and is thus vulnerable to a counter-attack. It's pretty clear as well that "throwing Darth Vader backward across the room" doesn't literally mean he was blasted across the room, otherwise he'd have ended up on Sheev's lap.

Once again, the Force exchange is completely unimportant to the Lightsaber duel which was the original topic of discussion. As for this exchange, I've never once cited it in our countless discussions on Vader vs SK, so I have no clue why your pre-emptively countering it. Literally, you could have cut this post down a sh*t ton (and yet you berate Quorian Debatist for supposedly needlessly extending the length of his posts?), please next time actually read what I write and keep on topic, it's infuriating to have to go through each individual bit of text that you've analysed which isn't even relevant to the discussion.

Vader easily recovers from the push and easily gets back into the fight. Note also that Vader is hindered by his prostheses in this fight, displaying "occasional clumsiness" despite having 17 years to fully adapt.

Once again, you're bringing sh*t up that isn't relevant to the topic of contention. The fact that Vader exhibits occasional clumsiness isn't a unique weakness he has against SK, it's a factor in every one of his fights. The discussion is on whether or not SK stomped Vader, not whether or not X factor that affects every fight Vader is in contributed to his loss.

Galen's mockery and taunts begin to work here. Having broken Vader's original momentum, Vader doesn't try to overpower Galen as he did before, and instead tries to retreat. Note that every time Vader has been enraged he's launched into an offensive frenzy, both in this novel, against ESB Luke, and against countless other Force users. This is different. Rather than overpower Galen (as we have been shown he is capable of), he instead chooses to withdraw to collect himself.

You have virtually no evidence Galen's mockery impacted Vader's ability to fight, that's stated absolutely nowhere. The actual reason Vader is retreating is stated in the text:

The Force Unleashed Novelization wrote:With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot.

Vader is "forced" to retreat due to Galen's "new strength" not any taunting on the latter's part. I have no idea where you conjured the idea that Vader was mentally hindered from because it isn't even implied much less directly stated.

Galen exploits his superior speed and Vader's "occasional clumsiness", slashing him across the throat. This is where the duel turns in Galen's favour.

The duel turned in Galen's favour long before this point. Once Galen decides he doesn't need to hate Vader in order to beat him he completely stomps him, as I stated. He forces him on the back foot, pressuring Vader to the point where he can't disengage from the duel, and then slashes him repeatedly in a short span of time.

Galen, enraged, exploits Vader's briefly lowered defences and deals two more severe injuries: a "deep wound" across his should, and a stab wound into his thigh, where his leg connects with his prosthetic.

 Exactly what I'm talking about. Care to cite where Vader gets an edge in this exchange because it pretty much looks like a stomp from where I'm sitting?

This is interesting. Let's see what it means when a machine is whining, with the help of three different real life examples of machinery. What do all of these have in common? A fault is indicated by a high-pitched whining sound. Which, as you can see below... ...is exactly what's described here. What's even better is that we have explicit confirmation that Vader's limbs were injured, weakening him and his ability to fight. So stop peddling the "Galen overpowered and ragdolled a combat ready Vader" kriff.

Great. Firstly, this is totally irrelevant as the topic of discussion is Lightsaber Combat (the duel ended in the previous segment of the fight and SK stomped), and secondly, you have no proof Vader's cybernetic limbs being injured impacted his ability to draw upon the Force. Since when have his robotic parts been at all relevant to his Force ability? Substantiate this please, as until then, none of this really matters.

Look at this. It's as if Vader wasn't ready for combat at the moment when Galen ragdolled him. Imagine that.

What? The quote you cited says Vader prepared for combat before Galen ragdolled him, meaning he was ready, how you came to this conclusion I have no idea.

This is great. Galen overpowered a wounded, unfocused and unprepared Vader. Such a great showing.

One of these is based on a misinterpretation of a statement, the other is based on absolutely nothing, and the other isn't relevant due to the nature of his injuries (all you've proven is his cybernetics were damaged not that his ability to draw upon the Force was impacted).

You have a fascinating concept of a "stomp" that lasted three pages and only ended with the use of taunts and when Vader was injured and unfocused.

3 pages of circumstances plaguing SK and favouring Vader? Lovely. Tell me when Vader actually competes with a non-hindered SK and I'll agree that SK can't stomp him.

Oh bullsh*t:

He began recovering his strength as soon as the fight with the clones ended, and you and I both know how quickly SK recovers from weariness.

SK recovering his strength doesn't matter as I very much doubt he was fully recovered when he faced Vader given that it takes Force Users a lot longer than a few minutes to recover from Force fatigue.

He then had several minutes on top of that when leaping from platform to platform to get to the top of the cloning tower, using one of the least strenuous Force abilities.

GM Luke states Force Users when exhausted need food, rest and meditation to recover, and SK had none of these, he was running to fight Vader not resting nor meditating, and he, of course, didn't exactly have time to stop and grab a sandwich.

No, Vader improved his technique by learning how to fight more cautiously and not giving into emotion. It was not specifically geared to fight SK. Hell, that's not even hinted at.

What? Vader fighting more cautiously is noted as a factor yes, but then the text goes on to talk about how Vader "knew the measure of his former apprentice now" and because of this "his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller's, every time." This clearly states Vader had familiarity with SK, the last duel didn't just teach him to fight cautiously.

Just quit with the exaggerations and half-truths, already. It's getting tiresome.

To quote your own words: "The irony."

Will reply later.

@the lord of hunger

1-well to many sources including g canon statements and secondary sources agree with me

I literally said I agree that Luke = Vader, you just haven't presented any arguments that lead my to believe this would help him beat Starkiller. Defer to my previous post as to why.

2-ahh Luke has done pretty freaking impressive things with the forcé that can prove he could hold his own against sk to put some examples: being able to manipulate protón bombs this kind of weaponary was powerful enough to destroy a capital ship,send back with the use of the forcé Thermal detonators,being able to floor Guri etc

Absolutely none of these feats are comparable to the ones I cited for Starkiller. Again, read my previous post.

The Apprentice wrote:@the lord of hunger

1-well to many sources including g canon statements and secondary sources agree with me

I literally said I agree that Luke = Vader, you just haven't presented any arguments that lead my to believe this would help him beat Starkiller. Defer to my previous post as to why.

2-ahh Luke has done pretty freaking impressive things with the forcé that can prove he could hold his own against sk to put some examples: being able to manipulate protón bombs this kind of weaponary was powerful enough to destroy a capital ship,send back with the use of the forcé Thermal detonators,being able to floor Guri etc

Absolutely none of these feats are comparable to the ones I cited for Starkiller. Again, read my previous post.

1-simply logic being a match for a prime Vader >>getting ragdolled by a pre prime one 






2- i Will be more clear about this matter: 


Lightsaber ability: Luke
Force powers: starkiller
All out: Luke after a incredible and difficult fight 

Esb luke slaps

Also break, I have used all these arguments before. The minds of the ignorant will not listen, you convinced lord of hunger and that's what matters. I will help you formulate a far more detailed case in the coming months, for now don't waste your time with creatures so beneath our might, let us not toil on the unworthy let us all walk our paths and ignore the infidels who scorn our lord.

The grand Vaderite has spoken, heed his call.

Isv wrote:Also break, I have used all these arguments before. The minds of the ignorant will not listen, you convinced lord of hunger and that's what matters. I will help you formulate a far more detailed case in the coming months, for now don't waste your time with creatures so beneath our might, let us not toil on the unworthy let us all walk our paths and ignore the infidels who scorn our lord.

The grand Vaderite has spoken, heed his call.

This is where the fun begins

Luke wins

@The lord of hunger If you like a post a lot, give it a star. However, note that you can only give two stars per day, so choose the best posts with care.

Isv wrote:Also break, I have used all these arguments before. The minds of the ignorant will not listen, you convinced lord of hunger and that's what matters. I will help you formulate a far more detailed case in the coming months, for now don't waste your time with creatures so beneath our might, let us not toil on the unworthy let us all walk our paths and ignore the infidels who scorn our lord.

The grand Vaderite has spoken, heed his call.

People tend to be more easily swayed by positions that appeal to them (LOH clearly has a lot of personal distaste for Galen as a character and those who defend him), so I wouldn't say swaying him is a monumentus achievenment. HP's post was objectively a lot better, and this is coming from a Luke supporter.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:

Isv wrote:Also break, I have used all these arguments before. The minds of the ignorant will not listen, you convinced lord of hunger and that's what matters. I will help you formulate a far more detailed case in the coming months, for now don't waste your time with creatures so beneath our might, let us not toil on the unworthy let us all walk our paths and ignore the infidels who scorn our lord.

The grand Vaderite has spoken, heed his call.

People tend to be more easily swayed by positions that appeal to them (LOH clearly has a lot of personal distaste for Galen as a character and those who defend him), so I wouldn't say swaying him is a monumentus achievenment. HP's post was objectively a lot better, and this is coming from a Luke supporter.

What is objectivity?

The quality of being objective.

@the lord of hunger

1-simply logic being a match for a prime Vader >>getting ragdolled by a pre prime one

Which ragdolling are you referring to? Pretty much every ragdolling is contextual so cite whichever one you think is indicative of Vader's superiority and we can go over it.

2- i Will be more clear about this matter:


Lightsaber ability: Luke
Force powers: starkiller
All out: Luke after a incredible and difficult fight

Right, but the entire basis for this premise is that Luke won't be overwhelmed by Galen's Force Powers which you've failed to substantiate. I've cited Galen performing several high tier Force feats (e.g. re-directing an ISD, atomising The Salvation, and wiping out a fighting force that could have "easily" overpowered Darth Vader, to re-post), and you responded with... Luke pushing a bunch of thermal detonators. That does not prove he's even close to Galen in Force Power (which you need to do in order for Luke to be able to compete here), you haven't given me any reason to believe Luke won't get ragdolled.

The Apprentice wrote:@the lord of hunger

1-simply logic being a match for a prime Vader >>getting ragdolled by a pre prime one

Which ragdolling are you referring to? Pretty much every ragdolling is contextual so cite whichever one you think is indicative of Vader's superiority and we can go over it.

2- i Will be more clear about this matter:


Lightsaber ability: Luke
Force powers: starkiller
All out: Luke after a incredible and difficult fight

Right, but the entire basis for this premise is that Luke won't be overwhelmed by Galen's Force Powers which you've failed to substantiate. I've cited Galen performing several high tier Force feats (e.g. re-directing an ISD, atomising The Salvation, and wiping out a fighting force that could have "easily" overpowered Darth Vader, to re-post), and you responded with... Luke pushing a bunch of thermal detonators. That does not prove he's even close to Galen in Force Power (which you need to do in order for Luke to be able to compete here), you haven't given me any reason to believe Luke won't get ragdolled.

ok lets compare each one statements of the two and demonstrate why luke is superior via scaling:







Years before his prime, Vader dominates TFU 2 Starkiller while the latter was enraged. The game guide also corroborates this by stating that Vader was too powerful for Starkiller. This is easily one of, if not Vader's most impressive feat:

You grab your sabers and attack, but Vader is too powerful. He tosses you away like a rag doll.

-- Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide




Vader's skill with a lightsaber is unparalleled, thus placing him above the likes of Starkiller and Ben Kenobi:

Darth Vader is the embodiment of all evil. Under the guidance of Emperor Palpatine-aka Darth Sidious- Lord Vader controls the Galactic Empire with an iron fist. He's an unparalleled lightsaber combatant and an even more capable Force wielder.

-- Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide




Vader stalemates/defeats Starkiller, who was an even deadlier combatant than Galen:

Vader made no move to defend himself when Starkiller reached the very top of the cloning tower. Determined to prove him wrong, Starkiller didn't waste time announcing his intentions. He just lunged. Only at the very last moment did Vader raise his blade to block the blow, and even then the move seemed almost casual, disinterested. Starkiller struck again, with both lightsabers. Vader blocked one blade and used telekinesis to throw the other off target. The platform buckled and twisted, sending Starkiller flying.
He rolled and leapt, and came up swinging. Covered in blood-the blood of his fellow clones-and knowing Juno was close, he fought his former Master with single-minded focus. Vader was still testing him; he sensed that more and more keenly, with every passing moment, but to what purpose he still couldn't tell. Vader himself fought more cautiously than he had on the Death Star, the last time they had dueled in earnest. His armor seemed to have improved, too; it was less vulnerable to lightning than it had been just days before.
Vader threw wrecked platforms and cloning rubes at him, while he scored three slashes to the Dark Lord's cape in return. They circled the top of the cloning tower, striking and assessing, then striking again.
Starkiller swore that he would not give in to anger or frustration. If that was what Darth Vader wanted, he wasn't going to get it. The only emotion he would give in to was love.
Finally, Starkiller saw an opportunity. They were exchanging rapid blows along the edge of the buckled platform, blades swinging so fast they were visible only as blurs. Vader's defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller's, every time. He may have defeated Vader before, but Vader had learned from that mistake. He knew the measure of his former apprentice now.
But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it.
The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike.
Juno lying limp in his arms.
The vision struck him as powerfully as a physical blow. When he tried to push it aside, it returned with even more power.
Juno-dead.
He reeled in shock. Was this what would happen if he killed Vader? He had no choice but to believe so. But if he didn't kill Vader, how would he ever get to her?
The Dark Lord took advantage of his momentary confusion. He delivered a telekinetic shove that threw Starkiller backward off the platform and down to the lower levels of the ruined cloning tower. The blow and the fall had the welcome effect of clearing his mind.
--
Starkiller ran past Darth Vader to where Juno lay broken on the edge of the cloning spire's roof. Horror and self-reproach filled his mind. He hadn't seen her crawling for the lightsaber; he hadn't sensed her desperate plan until the very last moment-and it was his alarm that had alerted Vader, he was sure of it. He and his former Master had reacted at the same rime. If Starkiller had moved an instant faster, had a fraction more of a second to think the problem through, he would have pushed Vader just as Vader had pushed Juno, impaling him on the blade before it was whisked away. Instead, he had thought only of saving Juno-a plan, he feared, that might always have been doomed to failure.
He stopped her before she flew off the edge of the roof, at least, but the grisly crunch of bones when she landed was unmistakable. Her head was bent at an impossible angle, and her eyes didn't track him as he ran toward her.
"Juno!"
A black-gloved hand grabbed his shoulder. He pulled away, howling with rage. His fallen lightsabers snapped into his hands and came instantly to life. With both blades moving in tandem, he struck out at his former Master using all his strength, all his rage, all his grief.
Darth Vader blocked the blow, but only just. Starkiller pushed, and the Dark Lord stumbled backward.
Instead of pursuing the attack, Starkiller went to go to Juno, but once again Darth Vader stood in his path.
"Get out of my way. "
"Your feelings for her are not real, " Vader said, nor moving.
"They are real to me. "
Starkiller attacked the Dark Lord again, but this time he was the one driven back.
--
Starkiller knew nothing about the Dark Lord's origins, but he knew what he had become. More monolith than man, his shadow bestrode the Empire, casting darkness wherever it fell. But what was the source of that scourge? What twisted psychology had brought him to where he stood now-risking his life to prevent the clone of his failed apprentice from coming near the body of the woman he had loved?
Sudden understanding burst in Starkiller's mind. This was what Darth Vader had wanted all along. He had been right to fear that Juno was in danger, but not just from clones like him-from Vader, who would use her death to destabilize Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair. Where Starkiller had seen hope, where Starkiller had been willing to sacrifice his own destiny to give the woman he had loved a chance to live, his former Master had seen only opportunity for betrayal- for without Juno, what did Starkiller have left to live and fight for? He had no family, friends, or allies. Juno was always intended to be the catalyst for his downfall. Her precipitous attack had merely brought the critical moment forward.
Starkiller saw things very differently. It wasn't Juno who had to die to complete Starkiller's training. It was Darth Vader himself, and he had brought this moment upon himself. Had he been content to let Starkiller go, none of this would have happened. Were he dead or freely searching for Juno, either way, he would never have willingly come back to Kamino. He would have gone anywhere else, and never returned.
Darth Vader simply wouldn't let go. The massive cloning exercise itself was proof of that. He had raised Starkiller to be a monster, and he would let nothing get in the way of achieving that outcome. Not even Starkiller's own death. Even if it took a thousand reincarnations and the death of trillions of innocent people, Darth Vader would not give up. His persistence, his unwillingness to accept defeat, was both his greatest strength and his greatest weakness.
All the clones were destroyed. As far as Starkiller knew, he was the last one left-so that was one vision averted, at least. No matter what happened, no version of him would hill foul of Darth Vader's vile plan now.
They fought like the Sith Lords of old, raging back and forth across the roof of the spire, uncaring what happened around them.
Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him. Neither would capitulate.
Neither would be the first to break. Their wills were locked.
They broke apart, lightsabers hissing in the ceaseless rain. Lightning split the sky into a thousand jagged shapes. Thunder rolled.
Neither had noticed the battle fading around them.
"Let me go, " Starkiller said, sounding much calmer than he felt. His heart was pounding, and his lungs burned. "You've taken everything from me. You must see that I will never serve you now. "
"You are wrong. I have given you everything. "
"This?" He gestured at Juno's inert form. He couldn't tell if she was breathing, but he still held out a distant hope. "You have done nothing for me. "
"It is our destiny to destroy the Emperor. You and me, together. "
There it was, Starkiller thought. That promise again. Surely Darth Vader could see that it meant nothing now, after so many times offered in the past, and none of them fulfilled?
Unless... A deeper layer of understanding presented itself. Unless Darth Vader felt exactly the same as he did.
What lengths had the Emperor, Darth Vader's Master, gone to in order to create him? And how far would Darth Vader go to get revenge? To attain his own destiny as a Sith?
"The Rebels want to destroy the Emperor, " Starkiller said. "Why not work with them rather th-?"
Vader attacked before he could finish the sentence, a blistering combination of blows that left Starkiller on his back foot. Clearly he had hit a very deep nerve. For a fleeting moment, the plan had seemed almost inspired. With Darth Vader on Kota's side, what couldn't the Alliance accomplish?
But it was a dream. The Rebels would never trust the Emperor's apprentice, and Vader was making it very clear that he wanted no part of it either. The vehemence of his response left no doubt about that.
Starkiller found himself backed up almost to the edge of the cloning spire's roof. One more step, and he would fall, and to fall would give Vader the high ground. That might not result in his death, but it would certainly end the fight.
It needed to end now, or else it might never end.
Blow after blow rained on him, forcing him back. There had to be a way to free himself and avenge Juno at the same time... but a stalemate seemed unavoidable. Any move he made was sure to lead him to an indefensible position.
Then it occurred to him. An indefensible position was exactly what he needed.
He lunged. Darth Vader saw him coming and swiped with unbearable strength, sending Starkiller's left lightsaber flying in pieces.
Starkiller lunged again, and his right lightsaber joined his left. He fell back, beaten, and stared up at his former Master.
"This is your last chance, " Vader said, standing over him with the unwavering tip of his lightsaber pointed directly at Starkiller's chest.
Starkiller stared up at the black mask, sure of two things. Vader didn't want to kill him, but not out of mercy or sympathy for his lot.
The Dark Lord had invested far too much time and energy in re-creating his former apprentice, and he wouldn't want to throw all that away. Not when he seemed on the verge of victory.
Juno was dead or dying. Starkiller was disarmed and helpless.
Any rational being would at least consider Vader's offer.
The second thing Starkiller knew was: The best way to beat Darth Vader is to let him think he's won.
Thinking of Wedge Antilles, he said, "I make my own chances. "
With both hands he sent a wave of lightning into the sparking gash Juno had made in Vader's chest plate.
The Dark Lord staggered backward, transfixed by the unexpected retaliation. Starkiller leapt to his feet and followed him, keeping up the lightning attack and using telekinesis to rip Vader's lightsaber from his temporarily weakened fingers. Sheers of energy spread out across the wet rooftop. Smoke and steam rose up in a tortured spiral. The grating whine of Vader's respirator rook on a desperate edge.
He went down on one knee. Starkiller stood over him. Vader's lightsaber swept into his former apprentice's hand. The blade came to rest at his throat.

-- The Force Unleashed 2









Vader demonstrates enough stamina to fight Starkiller for hours without being hit even once by his apprentice, and seemingly without exhausting himself:

He fought like a machine, too, with relentless blows and single- minded aggression. The first time they had dueled, in Starkiller's first life, Vader had displayed no anger at all-just determination, not to kill his apprentice, but to wear him into submission. The fight had raged across the training deck of the Executor for hours, with Starkiller never landing a single blow, no matter how he tried. He had gone from excitement at thinking that he had graduated to a new level of mastery to realizing just how much he had left to learn. More fuel had been added to the hatred he had felt for his Master and tormentor, along with a twisted kind of love for the man who made him stronger by showing him how weak he was. The fight had only stopped when Starkiller collapsed unconscious from exhaustion and was dragged by PROXY to his meditation chamber.

-- The Force Unleashed 2




Vader is stated by Sam Witwer to be powerful enough to wreck Starkiller, indicating that he was toying with him in their previous encounters:

"But there was definitely moments where Starkiller faces off very cocky against Vader, maybe near the beginning of the game, and Vader *houses* him. And he says "how are you doing this?" And he's says "I'm Darth Vader."...
...that Vader had been gaming him, quite a bit."

--Far, Far Away: Episode VIII: Sam Witwer




Just in case there is any doubt about the validity of Witwer's words due to his status as a mere voice actor, he wasn't just stating his opinion, he was describing the plot of TFU 3 and clarifying Haden Blackman's intentions, the latter being the developer of TFU, which is also suggested by the fact that Sam didn't want to reveal too much about the story of the third game:

Yeah, absolutely, I'll give you little tidbits. The story of 3 was going to be as I understand it, thematically the terror of Darth Vader, because, you know, Haden Blackman wasn't about to have you beat this guy two times in a row without making a very strong point at the end of the third one and throughout the third one. That, you know there is, there is a... you know, I shouldn't say too much in case this all happens...

-- Far, Far Away: Episode VIII: Sam Witwer

“Haden Blackman, David Collins (Proxy) and I have discussed the story and it’s pretty great. I don’t think it’s much of spoiler to say that taking Vader captive is not the best idea.”

-- Far, Far Away: Episode VIII: Sam Witwer
This is also consistent with the canonical ending of TFU 2, where Boba Fett, who had previously been hired by Vader, secretly followed Starkiller's ship, implying that the duel was all part of a plan:

https://youtu.be/Nc_z-4w25ng?t=268














luke: 


Luke's actualized power as of Return of the Jedi already rivals vader s:

Beware the Sith wrote:Although Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are equally strong in the Force, their duels are more than just about physical strength.

darth vader achieve his prime on rotj: 

His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor.

-- Return Of The Jedi



Darth vader considers Luke Skywalker the strongest Jedi he's faced, which puts him ahead of capable fighters like An'ya Kuro, Ferus Olin, Jax Pavan and most impressively Old Ben Kenobi:

Shadows of the Empire wrote:Obi-Wan was gone, and the other Jedi were all extinct, save one, who was the strongest of them all. His own son. He had told the Emperor that Luke Skywalker would join them or die. The real truth was only slightly different: Luke would join Darth Vader or die. It would be something to look forward to. That would be the duel of a lifetime. This wasn’t even exercise.

Darth Vader fears Luke Skywalker's power:

Return of the Jedi novelisation wrote:For the first time, the thought entered Vader’s consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City -- not to mention the boy’s timing, which was honed to a thought’s-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear.

Luke matches vader's strength:

Beware the Sith wrote:Although Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are equally strong in the Force, their duels are more than just about physical strength.

Luke by Return of the Jedi has advanced greatly, has unparalleled aptitude with a lightsaber, allowing him to stalemate Darth Vader and his learning curve was considered impossible to most:

Insider #62: Fightsaber wrote:By the time of the Battle of Endor, Luke Skywalker has studied some lightsaber technique from Obi-Wan's journal and and greatly advanced his abilities. Without a Master, such advancement would have been impossible for most, but Skywalker's unparalleled aptitude makes him a match for Darth Vader in their fateful duel onboard the second Death Star.

Luke is once again noted as an equal of Vader:

The Official Star Wars Fact File #111 wrote:The fight this time was far more balanced. Vader discovered that Luke was his match, and, once again, the Sith Lord found his thoughts straying to an alliance between them against the Emperor.
Luke had indeed grown powerful since Bespin, and he was an equal match for his father.

Luke's body houses more power than either the Emperor or Vader:

Source: Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor wrote:A body more powerful in the Force than Vader, potentially more powerful even than Palpatine. The body of a true hero, beloved by all right-thinking citizens in the galaxy as the very symbol of truth and justice...

The script of Return of the Jedi supports this, also claiming that Luke gains the advantage during his duel with his father onboard the second death star : 

Source: http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Return-of-the-Jedi.html wrote:Luke and Vader are engaged in a man-to-man duel of lightsabers even more vicious then the battle on Bespin. But the young Jedi has grown stronger in the interim, and now the advantage shifts to him. Vader is forced back, losing his balance, and is knocked down the stairs. Luke stands at the top of the stairs, ready to attack.

being a match for a dark lord of a sith at the height of his powers >>getting stalemated and ragdoll by a pre prime one with that i say all

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:The quality of being objective.

What is being objective?

Starkiller ragdolled again 

Meatpants wrote:Starkiller ragdolled again 

Like all things should be

@the lord of hunger

ok lets compare each one statements of the two and demonstrate why luke is superior via scaling:

Why does almost your entire post read like it was copy-pasted from a respect thread?

Before I continue I think it's important to first establish that when Starkiller fought Vader he was utterly exhausted:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=649895&pagenumber=2

I can't really be bothered summarising the argument, responding to your post is boring enough without regurgitating an old argument. Scroll down to Jaggarth's post and read "#2 - Too Tired to . . . Fail?". Any attempt to draw a comparison between Vader and Starkiller using scans from the TFU 2 novel and game already fail from the get-go due to Starkiller's exhaustion, but I'll go over the events individually because a lot of the below is taken out of context.

Years before his prime, Vader dominates TFU 2 Starkiller while the latter was enraged. The game guide also corroborates this by stating that Vader was too powerful for Starkiller. This is easily one of, if not Vader's most impressive feat:

Well, it's likely Starkiller was hindered when Vader ragdolled him, given that Starkiller states Vader's plan by killing Juno was an attempt to destabilise him:

The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization wrote:This was what Darth Vader had wanted all along. He had been right to fear that Juno was in danger, but not just from clones like him-from Vader, who would use her death to destabilise Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair.

Generally, when a Force User has been destabilised (emotionally compromised), their ability to use the Force is diminished as is noted by HK-47:

HK-47 wrote:"Generally, this was done by broadcasting strong emotions while thinking about something else. It was a curious technique, but it seemed to be effective in blinding Jedi. Whether guilt, lust, fear - they act as mental interference, making finding the true intentions of the broadcasting meatbag difficult. Obviously, a Force Sensitive broadcasting such emotions puts themselves at risk of not using the Force "properly," since to use it seems to require an inner calm that most meatbags do not possess. As much as the Jedi could not use such a technique, the Sith Lords cannot use it for much the same reasons - such passions as guilt, lust, and fear are rarely strengths to the Sith code."

If you read the novelization, you'll find that SK was exhibiting the underlined emotions, making it clear Vader's plan to destabilise him worked.

Guilt: "Horror and self-reproach filled his mind. He hadn't seen her crawling for the lightsaber; he hadn't sensed her desperate plan until the very last moment-and it was his alarm that had alerted Vader, he was sure of it."

Fear: "Instead, he had thought only of saving Juno-a plan, he feared, that might always have been doomed to failure . . . He had been right to fear that Juno was in danger, but not just from clones like him-from Vader, who would use her death to destabilize Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair."

Overall, Vader proved too powerful for an exhausted, emotionally unstable Starkiller who couldn't use the Force properly. This hardly proves they're comparable.

Vader's skill with a lightsaber is unparalleled, thus placing him above the likes of Starkiller and Ben Kenobi:

The quote is obviously hyperbole, if taken literally it would place Vader above Sidious in Lightsaber combat which we know isn't true given that Vader stalemated a post-prime Ben Kenobi in Lightsaber combat, whereas there is an "enormous" gap between Sidious and Prime ROTS Kenobi. A Prima Guide naturally hyping up a big boss doesn't lead me to believe Vader>Starkiller when Vader lost their fight.

Vader stalemates/defeats Starkiller, who was an even deadlier combatant than Galen:

The passage you posted depicts 3 things:

1) Starkiller overpowering Vader in their first fight in the Cloning Tower.
2) Vader and Starkiller stalemating in their second fight.
3) As a result of point 2, Starkiller letting Vader disarm him and proceeding to cheapshot him.

Absolutely none of this proves Vader=>Starkiller given that:

1) As aforementioned Starkiller was exhausted.
2) Point 1 actively disproves the notion Vader is = Starkiller - the latter overpowered him despite Vader gearing his fighting style to defend against him.
3) Points 2 and 3 prove Vader's comparable to Starkiller (while the latter weakened), it doesn't prove he's better.

Vader demonstrates enough stamina to fight Starkiller for hours without being hit even once by his apprentice, and seemingly without exhausting himself:

Yeah, you clearly haven't read the novelization otherwise you'd know the context to the passages you're citing. Starkiller was vastly pre-prime and at the beginning of his apprenticeship, this does nothing to prove Vader's superior. At the end of his first life when Starkiller's at his peak he stomps Vader.

Vader is stated by Sam Witwer to be powerful enough to wreck Starkiller , indicating that he was toying with him in their previous encounters:

Just in case there is any doubt about the validity of Witwer's words due to his status as a mere voice actor, he wasn't just stating his opinion, he was describing the plot of TFU 3 and clarifying Haden Blackman's intentions, the latter being the developer of TFU, which is also suggested by the fact that Sam didn't want to reveal too much about the story of the third game:

I don't care for statements on a game that was never made, these comments have no canonical validity. If you actually read the novel, it makes it fairly clear Vader's giving it his all against Starkiller, and the script backs this up by saying Starkiller legitimately defeated Vader. Which do you think is more reliable: quotes on a game that was never made, or the intent of the writers of TFU 2 at the time it was written? Personally, I'd go with the latter, content that was never released cannot retcon already established lore.

This is also consistent with the canonical ending of TFU 2, where Boba Fett, who had previously been hired by Vader, secretly followed Starkiller's ship, implying that the duel was all part of a plan:

Erm, no, there are a dozen explanations for why Boba could have followed Starkiller's ship, it doesn't have to mean Vader let himself get captured when the novel and script are pretty clear on the fact that Vader lost the fight legitimately, he wasn't holding back.

Anyway, I'm agreed with the rest of your post (that proves Luke and Vader are comparable), but you've failed to prove Vader and SK are comparable in any regard, so your argument crumbles in on itself.

Vader is by scaling and feats superior to starkiller imao actually to many to post them