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Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray

SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 Empty Re: SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol)

on March 10th 2020, 8:37 pm
Just wanted to confirm. While I still have no computer, my post will be up tomorrow
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray

SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 Empty Re: SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol)

on March 11th 2020, 9:13 am

Nihl vs Talon


Xolthol - wrote:While I agree on the fact that Nihl is way more suited than Talon for the job of leading the Sith, you must acknowledge the fact that, because siths are siths, IF Nihl wasn't at the very least equal to Talon there is just no reason for her not to try take the power for her by defeating him or at least challenging him. “ 

I acknowledge that this often is the case with the earlier sith empire and the Ro2 sith lords. But the One Sith are noted to be far more organized than other sith organizations, and far less prone to infighting (except a single time in hundreds of years). With the order beaten and the sith going into hiding, not only did they need a strategic leader, but the leader didn’t really matter anyways since their new doctrine was to drop all contact and work as independent agents. A fight between Talon and Nihl would have made absolutely no sense, particularly since there was nothing left to fight for. 

Furthermore, you’re being incredibly contradictive. On one hand you claim that Cade force pushing Talon into a wall wouldn’t phase her due to her resistance to pain. Then you say that a simple kick that sent Nihl flying into a wall is a feat of great power since he was knocked out. And then you say that they have equal durability. So according to you, they’re both hit into a wall, have same durability, yet Talon can’t even make a mildly uncomfortable face when Nihl was straight up knocked out?  It's clear that Talon’s face was one of pain and dizziness after the hit, not one of embarrassment, though overanalyzing the face a character makes in a comic is grasping at straws anyways. And you have to decide whether you believe they’re equally durable or not. 
 
The definitions of “smack” you posted are literary just hitting someone. Hitting someone once does not indicate that one is a massively superior fighter in any way imaginable. Could we perhaps focus on their actual fight?
 
-Xolthol wrote:“Tukatas are particularly non-coherent threats, you have some issue where a Tukata is a match for a Anakin Skywalker and you also have Darth Bane casually destroying some of them.... Except if you can prove me that this Tukata have been relevant in this fight and was not just an help for Darth Nihl to find where Talon was the Tukata help is just irrelevant. 
And as you point, at the end, Nihl have the upper hand” 

I said “Sure you could argue”, not that I believe that Nihl had the advantage. Talon having Nihl’s cape over her face is the only possible indicator of him having an advantage, but force users are quite capable of fighting blind (even younglings), and it just shows that Nihl had to resort to dirty fighting to stalemate her. And how exactly is pre-aotc Anakin so superior to Bane that you can claim that since Bane beat multiple and anakin struggled with one that they’re somehow inconsistent? I’m not saying they’re the greatest threat in the galaxy but they’re shown to be a threat to forceusers on their own, and if you add the fact that Talon had to fight it and Nihl at once it shows she’s more than an equal to him. 

@Xolthol wrote:“While I agree that Talon is in an extraordinary good physical condition because of her training, I higly doubt that this physical condition put her above Nihl who as a Nagai Warlord must also be in a really good physical shape. 
It only remains physical augmentation and passive force barrier, both link to the force power of the force user. “


Sure Nihl was a warlord and probably in somewhat good shape. But it's silly to just assume that being a savage warrior equals being actively trained by a sith lord someone’s whole life. Completely different circumstances, and even in those cases where people do have the exact same training they usually come out with a completely different set of abilities, for example the clone army, in which they’re identical clones with the same training and somehow gain different abilities. 
And as a forceuser, even an untrained one, Nihl would have required a lot less skill and strength than the others because the force would help him along the way no matter if he knew he was actively using it or not. Such things is how Luke found the first members of his jedi academy, like Gantoris, a villager like all others, seen as superior because he had the force. 

Xolthol - wrote:“You are right, but only for really specific force power.”

Thats fully neglecting the fact that Corran Horn was naturally unable to use telekinesis, a basic forcepower, showing that people’s affinity to all forceabilites vary, no matter how basic. Battle Meditation is just a more frequent and apparent example. Same with force drain. 

Dark Nest II: The Unseen Queen wrote:“He flicked his wrist, and Corran went sailing across the hangar back toward Kenth and the other Jedi. It was a particularly insulting dismissal, since Corran could not respond in kind, having never been able to master the skill of Force telekinesis.”

Partial conclusion: 
-Nihl being leader is meaningless
- You can’t decide whether you think Nihl and Talon have similar durability or not
-Nihl has gotten in a single hit in a random training duel
-All of this is irrelevant since Talon and Nihl had an actual no limits duel in which Nihl had an advantage and used dirty fighting and still was unable to win. 
-There are no grounds to argue that Nihl and Talon are equal in durability except theories


Cade growth


Xolthol - wrote:The only thing that is baseless here is your assumption that FL and shatterpoint are link.”

Considering every time that Cade has used the ability he used lightning alongside it, its fully plausible the two are linked. Considering Cade has no training with it initially and it was mainly an innate ability (hey, another example of someone possessing natural affinity with an ability), it's possible that Cade can only use it in combination with lightning. Similarly, Cade had to use force lightning every time he tried to use dark transfer. Additionally Cade never used shatterpoint against Stryfe, so I don’t even see how it's relevant. 

Xolthol - wrote:“Being hit by a Tked object or being blast against a wall is nearly the same thing in term of impact on your body” 

No. Considering the object would be slowed down by gravity, air resistance, not all of it would hit someone at once, and that most of the power would be used on lifting and throwing rather than increasing its speed and power. Meanwhile a TK blast is a focused blast of forcepower that hits the opponent directly. In the image it even looks like the ship just drags Talon along with it rather than actually impacting with any ability to be lethal. 

Xolthol - wrote:“and having your arm cut of did not make you easier to knock-out at the opposite, the pain will help you to stay conscient.”

Extreme pain can make you lose consciousness since the brain and nerves can’t handle infinite stress. 
I will admit Cade did grow stronger since his drug addiction due to training, mainly because I do not want to hang onto strawman arguments, not even sure why I tried to initially. However the growth would likely be in mastery and skill rather than power, and it mainly was concentrated on having Cade accept the darkside. The embrace of pain did the same for Krayt, it did not increase his power, it made him fully accept the darkside, same as Kun when he got all his bones shattered and then was attacked by sith beasts.  


Partial conclusion:
-Cade uses lightning with shatterpoint, thought it's irrelevant.
--Huge difference between throwing an object and using a direct force push
-Cade did improve, but there is no cause to believe he is massively superior to before 


Krayt’s Fist’s debunked power


Xolthol - wrote:“Correction your honor, Stryfe stalemate Cade in a TK duel showing a parity in term of Force Power to the powerhouse that is Cade. This clearly show that Stryfe have as many raw force power as Cade, putting him pretty high in term of Force power -cf my previous point-. “
 
Ah yes, temporarily holding off someone in a TK duel means you have roughly equal raw force power. 

Revenge of the Sith wrote:“They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth.”

SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 The_fo10
 
Anakin = Kenobi in raw force power. Perfectly sensible. Holding off someone in a TK duel for what could have been just a few seconds does not indicate parity.

Xolthol - wrote:This only prove that Cade known that he won't be able to easily dispatch Stryfe, clearly showing that in addition to comparable Force Power, Stryfe have also comparable fighting skills. “

Just because you can’t oneshot someone doesn’t mean they’re comparable. Sidious is obviously superior to Maul and Savage, yet he did not oneshot them. Dooku is superior to AOTC Anakin, they fought for a long time. Etc. 

@Xolthol wrote:“This only shows that Cade was able to find a gap in his opponent defense not that he his superior. The Legacy arc is full of cheap shot or surprised TK that dominate more powerful opponent. By following your logic, we have:

  • Cade is above Krayt because of his cheapshot at the end of legacy war (In which Krayt let his guard down and wanted to turn Cade)
  • Darth maladi is above Cade because she pushed him with TK just after being mind raped by Cade (Cade didn’t really get affected and had just been tortured) 
  • Shado Vao is above Cade because he Tked him (More evidence of Cade’s lack of mastery than anything) 
  • … “


Meanwhile the kick was mid-combat while both were dueling. It wasn’t a situational edge or a surprise attack. It was a combat move in the middle of their duel, one which Stryfe was unable to counter. Stryfe was hit and lost, simple. Much more sensible than saying they’re equal despite Stryfe being hit and Cade taking no damage.


Partial conclusion:
-Stryfe blocking one attack does not make him equal to Cade 


Ghosts


@Xolthol wrote:Clearly this have just zero sense for him to stop fighting just because he cannot win this fight.”

@Xolthol wrote:This goal was the only important thing here and must be achieve by Cade alone (as he explained to Master Sazen). So rather than staying alive to provide some minor help, Master Wolf Sazen saw the big picture and decide to kill Darth Stryfe as fast as possible. The best way to do this was to sacrifice his life.” 

I honestly find all your counters here nonsensical. First of you completely reject any notion of Kenobi simply trusting the will of the force and letting Luke follow his destiny, but then you say that it's sensible for Wolf to sacrifice himself and let Cade fight Krayt, who’s massively superior to either of them. After a short time of training Luke was already capable of giving Vader a decent fight in ESB, while Cade has (as you pointed out) no time and more importantly, no real chance of winning. Kenobi let Vader win because it was the will of the force, same as Wolf saw it right to sacrifice himself and taking Stryfe with him. In Kenobi’s case however, Vader was ultimately necessary for the Emperor’s defeat. 

@Xolthol wrote:It require a Force user to become a Force Ghost and it appears that Ulic was an exception which can be explained by its proximity from a philosophical point of view to the jedi and the fact that he was before being sever from the Force a powerful Force user.”

You act like this somehow counters my point. You just agreed that a non forceuser could become a force ghost due to his philosophical views. I agree. Its about philosophy and wisdom, not about power. So since someone who couldn’t at all draw upon the force could become a ghost, there is no basis to say that it requires some sort of concentration or that its necessary to gather power to do so. It's all spiritual.  Good we agree. 

@Xolthol wrote:
“Each time you see them being mortally wounded then they have some time to say "Good Bye!" and then they become one with the Force.”

And just in case you somehow go back on your word, let's pretend it does require power to become a ghost (all theoretical, just to show I’m not neglecting arguments). The fact that people on their last breath still has enough time and concentration to draw on enough power to become a force ghost, means it won’t really be much power needed at all. 


Partial conclusion:
-Becoming a ghost is all spiritual, no power or concentration necessary 


Dark side galactic influence 



I addressed and quoted the quotes you posted, but okay, I will talk about the bolded quotes since you said they were the relevant ones. 

@Xolthol wrote:“In the Legacy era, there is no balance to the Force”

Can refer to quantity of sith in relation to jedi. Can refer to darkside influence in terms of numbers (considering the chain of quotes use that word alot). Can even refer to the fact that Krayt has no legitimate counterside in terms of power.  

@Xolthol wrote:“The dark side of the Force clouds everything, and the galaxy’s future is harder to see than ever before. “

Just means that it's hard for the jedi to see the will of the force and see into the future. Kind of like the jedi during the clone wars. 
Even if we go out on a limb and say that there is some kind of permanent amp for all the sith, it won’t really be significant, since even random imperial knights and jedi knights have been shown slaughtering multiple sith at once. Antares Draco killed dozens of sith single handedly. 

Partial Conclusion:
Darkside influence remains irrelevant. 


Wolf vs Stryfe



Have been sort of debunking this around the thread, but there are some parts I still have to adress. 

@Xolthol wrote:“Are you claiming that Stryfe is an inept fighter? That he doesn't know to defend himself? This is highly questionable when you take into account that Stryfe was in the top of the sith of his era (being Krayt's Fist and then Wyyrlock hand after the disparition of Talon and Nihl).”

I am not claiming Stryfe is an inept fighter. I’m calling him an aggressive fighter with no regards to his safety. He’d rather kill than survive. Everytime he fights he gets hit. Even a sith apprentice (Saarai), was able to effortlessly ragdoll him, twist his limbs and block his efforts to kill her. 

SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 50313810

Partial conclusion:
-I already explained how it takes no power to become a ghost
-Stryfe is no weak fighter, he’s just an aggressive one, which is why Wolf managed to kill him in a stalemate. 

Daegen Lok dueling skills


@Xolthol wrote:“despite her being a warlord (which give us no idea of how skilled she is with a blade)”

Thats an interesting argument, considering in the same post you also said this: 

@Xolthol wrote:“While I agree that Talon is in an extraordinary good physical condition because of her training, I higly doubt that this physical condition put her above Nihl who as a Nagai Warlord must also be in a really good physical shape.”

So according to you, being a warlord automatically makes you equal to Talon physically, a talented sith trained her whole life for combat. While I obviously won’t actually let anyone think I’d even pretend this is true, but it shows how baseless your earlier claim was. 
The main reason I mentioned Hadiya, is since as she’s a warlord and we have seen her in combat, we know that the one strike she did get in probably was a well-aimed one. The feat is suffering such a wound and still killing a platoon of her best soldiers. 

@Xolthol wrote:“ In addition there is no proof that Daegen fight the platoon as one complete unit,”

Him having killed their warlord is enough to mark him as a traitor, and due to the positioning of their corpses we know they weren’t far apart. You could argue one or two were caught by surprise, but it's obvious the intent was to show he was just massively superior to them. 

@Xolthol wrote:“Daegen explicitly say that they were no match for a je'daii not only him. “

Thats a feat for how skilled the je’daii are, which makes him beating so many je’daii more impressive. Hardly a good counter. 

@Xolthol wrote:“Yes this is a good feat but which isn't really impressive when you know that they weren't Force Users.”
Beating a platoon of elite nonforceusers isn’t impressive, yet on Geonosis hundreds of jedi including Mace Windu failed to beat a couple droids. Dooku was captured by a group of criminals. Jace Malcolm beat multiple sith. Its not a ground-breaking feat but considering Lok did so while wounded and with only his blade, it's still a good showing of his skill with the blade.

@Xolthol wrote:“In addition Fenn did not seems a great warrior, just for remembrance he is arts master (something that made Lok laught at him).”

So being an arts master makes you a bad duelist? Fenn immediately calls him arrogant for his attempted insults, and there are countless fighting styles known as “arts” or “dances”. It's just silly to use that as a way to undermine his skills or power. 

@Xolthol wrote:“Then he was just cheapshot by Daegen who win by fooling his opponent”

He gave what seemed like weakness and an opening, and thereby tricked Fenn yes. Using intelligence while fighting is always a factor in combat, and even in real life dueling its common to trick your opponent to gain an advantage. 

@Xolthol wrote:“I asked you, have you actually a good feat for the Flesh Raiders?”


Cool question, let me show their feats in SWTOR. 

SWTOR wrote:“Master Orgus was right. These natives are more advanced than we realised. They’re learning how to fight us.”


“Flesh raiders in the ruins. More powerful than we’ve seen.”


“No. These flesh raiders control the force.” 


“The temple masters are all indisposed fighting flesh raiders. I will alert them immediately, but they may be unable to assist you.” 


“This temple could have been devastated. The entire order is in your debt, padawan.”

SWTOR wrote:“The hooded figure in that recording is named Bengel Morr. He was my padawan--but never completed his training."

So flesh raiders barely starting to access the force by training from a jedi padawan already became powerful enough to threaten the entire jedi temple on Tython, and all of the jedi high council - including grand master Satele Shan - were unable to beat them. These flesh raiders practically possessed the mastery of younglings, and were armed with swords and blasters. 
Meanwhile flesh raiders in their prime with lightsabers, experienced in combat and with a better knowledge of the force as former rakatans, were barely able to beat a heavily tortured and mind dominated Daegen Lok who was chained to a rock. 

Partial conclusion:
All counters debunked. Flesh raiders in particular are incredibly dangerous opponents. 


Mind twist


@Xolthol wrote:“Daegen was able to trick a random je'daii ranger. really impressive” 

Not only was this ranger specifically chosen to hunt Daegen, as well as was aware of his abilities, but you also failed to acknowledge the most impressive part of this feat: 
-Oneshotting through a combat-ready ranger’s defences
-The mind twist being so strong she gains physical injuries (unprecedented amongst all of SW)
-The mind twist lasting despite Lok fighting a je’daii temple master, getting cut across the gut, and despite her being moved to an entirely different planet. Particularly the last part is impressive.  
-The planet the ranger was brought to was Tython, so even on a nexus a planet away she couldn’t break it
 
On Bogan Xesh was unable to block the mind twist, he just threatened Lok’s life instead, while Lok wanted Xesh’s help. hardly a legit fight, and only showed that Xesh was unable to block the twist directly. 


Hawk Ryo also was unable to block the twist, and the only reason he wasn’t affected by it was since Lok wanted to show him the vision they had, not to dominate his mind or search his fears. “You…..will…..get….out of my…..mind!” Doesn’t sound like someone who already has blocked it. 


The last example is the only you gave in which Lok actually tries to use the mind twist in its proper and dangerous form. And he fails yes, but only for two reasons; first of Xesh had already experienced the twist and knew what was coming, and secondly he just let Lok see the horrors he had experienced with the rakatans, he did not actually beat him. “My mind is a place you do not wish to go”



@Xolthol wrote:“Fenn at this point was heavily injured by Daegen strike up to the poin that he cannot stand”


The injury Fenn suffered was the exact same Lok suffered at the start of their duel, which Lok shrugged off. They would at least be equally hindered by the pain, though Lok should be more hindered by the fact he still held mental control over Zana, and that he hadn’t been in combat or practice for years. And mentioning the push was just to show how many things Lok did at once with little effort. 

@Xolthol wrote:To made my point simpler to understand with the Force 1+1>2” 

This would mainly be because they strengthen each other, unlocking their full potential. However in the case of someone as highranking as a je’daii temple master, it seems unlikely that they had much more unrealised power left. 

@Xolthol wrote:“ just help by the jedi trainees, not by any jedi master or even jedi knight.” 

The scan you posted literary says “All the new jedi knights fought together.” , which only makes sense since all the original trainees were knighted by the end of the JA trilogy. 

@Xolthol wrote:“ do you really think that this jedi trainees have such power?” 

Considering that we seemingly agree that by joining power one unlocks ones unrealised power, Kyp Durron having the potential to be more powerful than Luke should basically be enough for that feat. Then add the fact that your scan says “But only Dorsk 81 had the bravery and skill to save the jungle moon” and “He used the force more than any of us. He joined himself with the other jedi trainees. He drew upon everything. Opened every cell of his body to the force.” indicates that in that fight, Dorsk was even greater than Kyp. Other students included Streen (Who could stagger a huge sith leviathan by creating massive winds, and could read the minds of everyone on Coruscant unintentionally), Kam Solusar (who oneshotted Vill Goir before his training with Luke even began), and Brakiss (who later manipulated solar flares with no effort). So no, pushing a few star destroyers does not surprise me. 

@Xolthol wrote:“Master Quan-Jang nearly die to” 

He didn’t though, and that only speaks in favour of the je’daii temple masters. Possessed more skill and power than all of Luke’s early jedi trainees. 

Partial conclusion: 
Lok’s skill with the mind twist is far beyond what Wolf can handle. 
-Je’daii temple masters remains far more impressive than Wolf


Flaws in scaling attempt



Let's start with the Lok/Xesh fight. Lok had been imprisoned on Bogan for years, never training and even being insane, which we know can hinder both ability to draw on the force and to make sensible decisions in combat. Furthermore, as you pointed out, Lok didn’t want to kill Xesh, rather he wanted to see if Xesh had the power and skill to be useful. He had no intentions of beating Xesh in the fight, and still was able to surprise and gain hits on Xesh despite the conditions Lok had lived under. He even was capable of sneaking up on Xesh, someone who was able to sense the location of a planet he knew nothing about, as well as learning of the identity of multiple individuals on it. 


SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 41128110


So while holding back, a pre-prime Lok who hadn’t been in combat for years and had limited ability to use the force is at least = Xesh. Though considering Lok easily affected his mind it seems likely he could have won through that if he wanted to, so he should actually be > Xesh. 

@Xolthol wrote:“So clearly we have that: Amp!Xesh >>>> Normal Xesh.”

The Xesh that the je’daii temple masters had to stop probably was >>>> normal Xesh yes. But that is since he was a planetary tier character at that point, way out of Wolf’s league. 

But you make the mistake of thinking that said Xesh is the same as the three journeyers fought. The point where he became able to harness the power he had in him was only after he first made a bond with Shae, and then drew upon the force lightning created by a rift worm. So before that Xesh was actually just in his base, pre-prime state, and let's check the full circumstances of the fight with the trio.
 
Before the fight even happens, Xesh uses force shadow to scout the entirety of the planet Tython at once, and the backlash from four people sensing him caused a backlash that induced pain, since he fell to the floor because of it. Directly afterwards, he used force lightning powerful enough to overcharge a rakatan capitol ship that runs on darkside power. He then killed his master, a predor, a highranking member of rakatan society (in which you rise in rank only by killing your superiors), and then his guards. 


SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 41128111

SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 41127810



The ship crashes from above Tython to the surface of the planet, with no power to shield itself. Xesh was able to tank the crash so well his only injury was a concussion, which is a very dangerous and hindering. Then his fight with the je’daii begins. 


While Xesh states he can’t win in the fight, nor does he say he’ll lose. And according to OOU sources, the three je’daii had the combined mastery to “match” him, not to beat him. So at most, you can say that the three = a heavily weakened and fatigued Xesh. 


SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 41126510

During the fight he even creates force lightning powerful enough to knock over two huge darkside creatures (one a rancor and the second similar in size). He used tutaminis but the initial strike was massively inferior to the force lightining he fired, and it again shows how Rath's strongest ability didn't even phase him when it was 1v1. 


SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 41127910



Also just to remind you, this is what you said about forceusers working in unison: “To made my point simpler to understand with the Force 1+1>2”. In this instance there’s 1+1+1 vs Xesh. 

Now after he creates an earthquake to distract them, he still has enough stamina to run off, only to get mentally disturbed by multiple visions. Despite those limiting his focus and ability to use the force, he still could use force lightning to kill multiple large spiders, and then kill a group of darkside beasts that feed on the darkside, limiting his available abilities further. By the end of the fight he passes out from the effort, despite the nexus within him getting stronger,showing his inability to use it. 



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Only when the rift worm fires lightning on him to feed on, then he becomes fully invested in the storm and nexus.


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SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 41128411

So three je’daii journeyers = A horribly weakened, injured and exhausted base Xesh, and even after the fight he still was more than capable of using powerful abilities. 

Sidenote, though its largely irrelevant; journeyers have finished their training as padawans. Meanwhile Cade never even came that far, and still is stronger than Wolf. Not that you can properly translate skill, mastery and power between the ranks of two completely different orders anyways. It doesn’t even make sense in singular order. Is jedi knight Revan weaker than master Vandar? Is Anakin weaker than Kit Fisto? Is jedi knight Kenobi weaker than Jocasta Nu? 


Partial conclusion:
-Entire scaling chain was a mess 
-Massively hindered Lok >= Xesh >>> Massively exhausted and injured Xesh = three je’daii journeyers. 
-Ranks mean nothing


Conclusion: 

-Most arguments in favor of Wolf debunked
- Wolf is at most = Stryfe, and neither compare to a hindered pre-prime Lok
- Lok remains a skilled duelist
- Wolf has no defence against Lok’s esoteric telepathy
- Lok does not suffer from his positioning compared to Xesh
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray

SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 Empty Re: SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol)

on March 11th 2020, 9:47 am
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 Empty Re: SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol)

on March 12th 2020, 11:57 am
:0
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 Empty Re: SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol)

on March 12th 2020, 2:47 pm
@Cheth Great post, I don't know when I will respond. My Internet connection isn't working well so I have lots of thing on this forum to read and some response to made.
Seturna
Seturna

SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 Empty Re: SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol)

on March 12th 2020, 3:19 pm
Good post Chethzerion
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray

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on March 12th 2020, 3:23 pm
@xolthol wrote:@Cheth Great post, I don't know when I will respond. My Internet connection isn't working well so I have lots of thing on this forum to read and some response to made.
I used a few months to respond. Take your time lmao

But I did just get my new computer so when you do respond, you won't have to wait long hopefully
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 Empty Re: SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol)

on March 18th 2020, 1:36 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@Nute_Chethray I think that I will be able to post in this week or the start of the next.
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray

SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 Empty Re: SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol)

on March 18th 2020, 7:53 pm
No rush SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 1289255181
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 Empty Re: SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol)

on March 21st 2020, 1:30 pm
@Nute_Chethray

*WOLF SAZEN*





I allow myself to use a different order than your.

~Dark Side impact on a galactic level~


@Nute_Chethray wrote:Can refer to quantity of sith in relation to jedi. Can refer to darkside influence in terms of numbers (considering the chain of quotes use that word alot). Can even refer to the fact that Krayt has no legitimate counterside in terms of power

Your bad faith is incredible... You have one of the most obvious quote saying that the cosmic force isn't in balance IE one side of the force is more present than the other and despite this you are still trying to say that it don't speak about the Force itself. 
I will use the same bad faith as you in all my comment in red and then we will see if you decide to still keep this ridiculous position.


@Nute_Chethray wrote:Just means that it's hard for the jedi to see the will of the force and see into the future. Kind of like the jedi during the clone wars. 
This is a perfect proof that the cosmic Force is, like during the clone wars, UNBALANCED. Concession accepted

@Nute_Chethray wrote:Even if we go out on a limb and say that there is some kind of permanent amp for all the sith, it won’t really be significant, since even random imperial knights and jedi knights have been shown slaughtering multiple sith at once. Antares Draco killed dozens of sith single handedly. 

First of all Antares Draco isn't "some random imperial knight". In a second time do you understand how ridiculous is your argument? You are claiming that because character (X is hindered and character (Y) is amped it is the proof that the amp/hinderance isn't relevant... You just forget an important thing, a neutral comparison point. The only thing that you have proven so far is that the gap between (X) and (Y) is bigger than the amp/hinderance. Which isn't at all a proof of a weak amp/hinderance.

Partial conclusion:
You concede that the force was unbalanced toward the Dark Side and thus that the Galaxy was under a DS amp that hindered Wolf Sazen during his fight against Stryfe. 
If we add the quote: "If the influence of the dark side waxes and wanes, during the Legacy era it reaches peaks unseen except during the grimmest times in galactic history" with the context of this DS influence, we have that the impact is huge.

~Stryfe skills and power~


@Nute_Chethray wrote:Ah yes, temporarily holding off someone in a TK duel means you have roughly equal raw force power. 

Anakin = Kenobi in raw force power. Perfectly sensible. Holding off someone in a TK duel for what could have been just a few seconds does not indicate parity.
Concession accepted...
Yes if you are able to counter someone TK blast you must be around it in term of power. 
And the example that you use is really really bad for you... You can choose the version explaining that Kenobi was amped or Anakin hindered, in both case the only thing that explain this equality is because THEY WORK AT THE SAME LEVEL OF FORCE POWER. 
I have already explained this in my first post, something that you deliberately ignored... I post it again, hoping that this time you will try to counter it:


@Xolthol wrote:Lets just made a quick analysis of this to know whether or not this is a stalemate.
There is two starting possibilities:

  1. Stryfe land a TK strike and Cade counter it
  2. Cade land a TK strike and Stryfe counter it

If we are in P1, one can argue that Cade didn't need to be working at full power and only need to counter the power throw at him by Stryfe. But this theory have two mains flaws. First of all, Cade have no way to gauge the power that Stryfe  put in its TK attack. Based on this there is no way for him to only provide the power needed to just counter this strike. The second problem with this theory is: why will Cade only counter Stryfe attack if he can just overpower him? There is just zero reason. Clearly this is the proof that this is a real stalemate.
If we are in P2, someone can say that Cade didn't use his full power but only part of it. Once again this is idea isn't logic at all. Why would Cade do this? He had just no reason not to go full power in this strike. In addition to this, when looking at his face, he seems clear that he is clenching his teeth like when you are doing a huge effort. 
Ignoring my previous argument

@Nute_Chethray wrote:Just because you can’t oneshot someone doesn’t mean they’re comparable. Sidious is obviously superior to Maul and Savage, yet he did not oneshot them. Dooku is superior to AOTC Anakin, they fought for a long time. Etc


Your examples are really bad, Sidious was toying with the Zabrak brothers (as his creepling smile show us):
Darth Maul : Shadow Conspiracy wrote:Maul and Savage didn’t waste time seeking an advantageous position. They simply charged, blades shimmering, trying to overpower Sidious with the animal ferocity of their attack. Sidious caught their sabers on his, the weapons howling and crackling where they touched. Maul saw that Savage was startled by the seemingly frail man’s enormous strength. Maul stared at his Master’s face. He saw the strain as Sidious called upon the Force to keep the brothers at bay. But there was something else there, too—a terrible pleasure. Sidious began to grin.

 and clearly the fight between Anakin and Dooku wasn't a "hard fight":
The Making of Revenge of the Sith wrote:Anakin and Obi-Wan pursue Dooku to a secret hangar, where he defeats them easily, cutting off Anakin's hand
Attack of the Clones Junior Novelization wrote:
Anakin caught the weapon in his free hand and attacked again. But even with two lightsabers, he could not hold back Count Dooku for long. The Count smiled and began to toy with him, knocking the extra lightsaber out of Anakin’s hand.
Retreat, Obi-Wan thought. Stall him. But Anakin was not retreating; he was being driven back. The combat had almost come full circle, back to where Obi-Wan lay. The Count smiled slightly — Obi-Wan was not sure at whom — and his blade flicked out almost too fast to see. Anakin screamed as his right arm dropped to the floor, cut off at the elbow.
The official Starchips & Vehicles Collections #34 wrote:He was spotted by Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker, who followed Dooku, attacking him in the hanger. They were easily defeated by the Sith Lord but before he could finish them off, Dooku was surprised by the arrival of Yoda
Star wars The Complete Encyclopedia wrote:The two Jedi challenged Dooku to a lightsaber duel, but Dooku's masterful skills in old-style lightsaber combat made short work of the younger combatants
Try something else to defend your point, but this time, make some research in order not to use bad example...

@Nute_Chethray wrote:Meanwhile the kick was mid-combat while both were dueling. It wasn’t a situational edge or a surprise attack. It was a combat move in the middle of their duel, one which Stryfe was unable to counter. Stryfe was hit and lost, simple. Much more sensible than saying they’re equal despite Stryfe being hit and Cade taking no damage.
Yes, the kick wasn't situational however the fact that he allowed to end this fight was situational. In addition as I have already explain in my previous post being able to land a kick or a random force push to an ennemy isn't a proof of superiority in the Legacy Arc... once again you seems to ignore what I give you and just miss the point.

@Nute_Chethray wrote:I am not claiming Stryfe is an inept fighter. I’m calling him an aggressive fighter with no regards to his safety. He’d rather kill than survive. Everytime he fights he gets hit. Even a sith apprentice (Saarai), was able to effortlessly ragdoll him, twist his limbs and block his efforts to kill her. 
You seems to forgot that Saarai isn't some random sith apprentice. She is the futur Wyyrlock IV. Even though she isn't as powerful as her father, the simple fact that one day she will take his sucession can easily explained why she is so powerful in the force thus why she ragdoll Stryfe.
In addition to this, you also forget that when stryfe engage this fight, he just get out of a bacta tank and was trying desperately to find darth Krayt because he didn't feel him anymore. So clearly he was not in his prime.

For the agressivity of style, this is true, but only powerful foes (such as Cade, Saarai or Sazen) have been able to use it.

Partial conclusion:
- You fail to show that there is a disparity between Cade and Stryfe both in term of Force power and combats skills.
- All of your example clearly prove that you don't know what you are talking about and absolutely not substantiate your points.

~Cade growth~


@Nute_Chethray wrote:I will admit Cade did grow stronger since his drug addiction due to training, mainly because I do not want to hang onto strawman arguments, not even sure why I tried to initially.  
Concession accepted

@Nute_Chethray wrote:However the growth would likely be in mastery and skill rather than power, and it mainly was concentrated on having Cade accept the darkside. The embrace of pain did the same for Krayt, it did not increase his power, it made him fully accept the darkside, same as Kun when he got all his bones shattered and then was attacked by sith beasts. 
Indeed Cade become more skilled and more in control of his power. Thus he can use way more efficiently his power and his use of TK must be way more efficient than previously.
In addition as you pointed out he also fully accepted the use of the DS. As a result and like other people who fully embrace the DS of the Force he must have become more powerful.  Goods examples are Dooku and Anakin Skywalker who both became more powerfula after falling to the dark side of the force.

Dooku:
Attack of the Clone Junior Novelization wrote:He felt Dooku gathering power, and he bowed his head in shock and sorrow as he sensed the true source of the Count's increased ability.
Revenge of the Sith wrote:This is Dooku, Darth Tyranus, Count of Serenno:
Once a great Jedi master, now an even greater Lord of the Sith, Dooku is a dark colossus bestriding the galaxy
StarWars.com wrote:Not even Dooku's Sith-enhanced powers were enough for him to defeat Yoda.

Anakin:
Revenge of the Sith wrote:"You have done well, my new apprentice. Do you feel your power growing?"
"Yes, my Master."
Revenge of the Sith wrote:He could feel his power growing, indeed. He had the measure of his “Master” already; 

Partial Conclusion:
You agree on the fact that the Cade that faced Stryfe is more powerful than the one that throw the ship on Talon. In addition to this I have shown that this growth is even more important than you think. 

~Cade TK~


Just for the record, I can concede you the shatterpoint point because I now fail to see why I've decided to use it at first...

@Nute_Chethray wrote:No. Considering the object would be slowed down by gravity, air resistance, not all of it would hit someone at once, and that most of the power would be used on lifting and throwing rather than increasing its speed and power. Meanwhile a TK blast is a focused blast of forcepower that hits the opponent directly.
#FACEPALM
I wasn't talking about the first impact on the body but on the impact when the body hit a wall/the ground. This was this part that knocked out Nihl as you can see in the scan that I give you in my first post. 
The two clues of this are: 

  1. we have a sort of yellow blast around his head
  2. his hand that was close in the previous panel is open. This is exactly what happened when you're knocked out: all of your muscles relax.

Once again you missed my point.
As a result, we now know that what happened to Talon and to Nihl is similar in term of impact on their body.


@Nute_Chethray wrote:In the image it even looks like the ship just drags Talon along with it rather than actually impacting with any ability to be lethal.
This is really bad reasonning let me explain this:
FACT: the ship came fast enough for Talon not to dodge it (so pretty quickly knowing how fast can force user be) and drag her far far away (so the energy at the moment of the impact on Talon must be pretty huge). 
YOUR THEORY:This isn't really impacting on someone.
MY THEORY: It is really deadly even for a force user. It recquires a pretty huge force defense to survive.
Guess which one is the most realistic? (hint: NOT YOURS).


@Nute_Chethray wrote:Extreme pain can make you lose consciousness since the brain and nerves can’t handle infinite stress.
yes but in the star wars mythos it seems that having an arm cut isn't something that make you loose consciousness. Neither Anakin (versus Dooku) nor Luke (versus Vader) were knocked out after loosing a limb. Thus this pain can be tolarated by the body and will help you stay conscient. 
For your general knowledge, learn that if you hit with your foot a wall, just hit way more stronger the same wall with your head or knee and you won't suffer anymore from your foot... this is based on the principe that in human body the pain cannot addition themself, only the most important impact your brain. 

Partial Conclusion:
The TK that knocked-out Nihl is way, way more powerful than the ship that have been TKed on Talon.

~Nihl vs Talon~


@Nute_Chethray wrote:I acknowledge that this often is the case with the earlier sith empire and the Ro2 sith lords. But the One Sith are noted to be far more organized than other sith organizations, and far less prone to infighting (except a single time in hundreds of years). With the order beaten and the sith going into hiding, not only did they need a strategic leader, but the leader didn’t really matter anyways since their new doctrine was to drop all contact and work as independent agents. A fight between Talon and Nihl would have made absolutely no sense, particularly since there was nothing left to fight for.

You seems to ignore one of my key point in the previous post (you didn't quote it):
@Xolthol wrote:Remember that Talon was fully dedicated to Krayt, not to the One Sith Empire. With the death of her master she haven't lots of reason not to claim the mentor of the Sith Empire if she was able to. 
Ignoring my argument
In addition to this, we have that the One Sith Order didn't work without Krayt. To be honest Krayt create this order only to serve him, not to survive his death. This is perfectly visible when you see that Wyyrlock try to hide the death of Krayt from all his servants. 
With the death of his leader at the end of the Legacy Arc, as you point, the One Sith order must evolve to survive. However, we know how it works for siths. They rather work for themself than for the collective good of their order.

As a result I reaffirm my claim: the fact that Talon didn't try to fight Nihl is a perfect proof that they're at the very least in the same league.

@Nute_Chethray wrote:Furthermore, you’re being incredibly contradictive. On one hand you claim that Cade force pushing Talon into a wall wouldn’t phase her due to her resistance to pain. Then you say that a simple kick that sent Nihl flying into a wall is a feat of great power since he was knocked out. And then you say that they have equal durability. So according to you, they’re both hit into a wall, have same durability, yet Talon can’t even make a mildly uncomfortable face when Nihl was straight up knocked out?
Imaginary contradiction
I think that logic is failing you... Since when did I claim that the force push from Cade against Nihl is as powerful as the one against Talon? I was only explaining why the force push on Talon cannot explain her facial expression... You are finding contradiction where there isn't any.

@Nute_Chethray wrote: It's clear that Talon’s face was one of pain and dizziness after the hit, not one of embarrassment, though overanalyzing the face a character makes in a comic is grasping at straws anyways. And you have to decide whether you believe they’re equally durable or not. 
I disagree with your analysis. 
This is pain:
SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 Pain_l10

In addition to this, we know that when Cade use Shatterpoint to make her suffer (so he increase the pain that she already have) she didn't phase at all. 

SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 Not_pa10

With all of this I can conclude that yes this wasn't pain but shame.

@Nute_Chethray wrote:The definitions of “smack” you posted are literary just hitting someone. Hitting someone once does not indicate that one is a massively superior fighter in any way imaginable.
Once again, your bad faith is impressive. Indeed in one of the definition that I post, yes this is hitting someone HARD against something else. However the first definition that I give you clearly explain this as a way to punish a child, something really humiliating. Why do you think Cade use this term rather than "hurt"? Knowing how disrespectful is Cade this seems way more logic for him to use "smack" in the punitive sense. 

@Nute_Chethray wrote:I said “Sure you could argue”, not that I believe that Nihl had the advantage. Talon having Nihl’s cape over her face is the only possible indicator of him having an advantage, but force users are quite capable of fighting blind (even younglings), and it just shows that Nihl had to resort to dirty fighting to stalemate her. 
I think that you are mistaking a shadow on Talon face for a cape. Nihl din't have a cape in this fight...

@Nute_Chethray wrote:I’m not saying they’re the greatest threat in the galaxy but they’re shown to be a threat to forceusers on their own, and if you add the fact that Talon had to fight it and Nihl at once it shows she’s more than an equal to him. 
If I agree with your theory that Nihl use the Tukata during the fight, you must acknowledge the fact that Nihl need to control it a bit. 
Indeed nihl take the control of the beast during his hunt in Korriban.
SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 4533704-beast%20control2 
So Nihl wasn't fully focus on the fight and thus not working at his full potential.

@Nute_Chethray wrote:Sure Nihl was a warlord and probably in somewhat good shape. But it's silly to just assume that being a savage warrior equals being actively trained by a sith lord someone’s whole life. Completely different circumstances, and even in those cases where people do have the exact same training they usually come out with a completely different set of abilities, for example the clone army, in which they’re identical clones with the same training and somehow gain different abilities. 
And as a forceuser, even an untrained one, Nihl would have required a lot less skill and strength than the others because the force would help him along the way no matter if he knew he was actively using it or not. Such things is how Luke found the first members of his jedi academy, like Gantoris, a villager like all others, seen as superior because he had the force. 
I'm not claiming that Talon and Nihl have exactly the same physical skills and condition only that overall they must have the same physical shape and that we cannot clearly say that one is far above the other. If you think that Talon is far above Nihl feel free to try proven it.

@Nute_Chethray wrote:Thats fully neglecting the fact that Corran Horn was naturally unable to use telekinesis, a basic forcepower, showing that people’s affinity to all forceabilites vary, no matter how basic. Battle Meditation is just a more frequent and apparent example. Same with force drain. 
You seems to forget that Corran is an exception, not a rule... it is really rare for someone not being able to use this basic force power. To be fully realistic no one haven't been able to increase his physical condition or use passive force barrier (if you think the opposite, feel free to provide example). 

And yes people can have different ability with different powers. But unless you can prove that they are more or less skilled with one particular power you must asssume that every one have the same skill with it. Thus the only thing that matter is their overall force power.

Apply this to Talon and Nihl and you will find that Nihl, because he is more powerful must have better passive force barrier/physical augmentation (including durability). 

One last new argument in favor of Nihl that I will develop here: Nihl is the best of Krayt enforcer:
Star Wars Legacy #0.5 wrote:He is the top enforcer of Krayt's will out in the galaxy at large, and within the Sith Order itself.
With this in addition to the fact that he decide to hunt Talon alone and not with some external help is a clear proof of his superiority over the second hand of Krayt.

Partial Conclusion:

You absolutely fail to prove that Nihl isn't above Talon and therefore more resilient.

~Force ghost and philosophy~


@Nute_Chethray wrote:I honestly find all your counters here nonsensical. First of you completely reject any notion of Kenobi simply trusting the will of the force and letting Luke follow his destiny, but then you say that it's sensible for Wolf to sacrifice himself and let Cade fight Krayt, who’s massively superior to either of them. After a short time of training Luke was already capable of giving Vader a decent fight in ESB, while Cade has (as you pointed out) no time and more importantly, no real chance of winning. 
Imaginary contradiction
You seems to have an impressive capacity to find contradiction where there isn't one:  

  • No it make no sense IF HE COULD HAVE INJURED/KILLED VADER for Kenobi not to do it before becoming one with the Force particularly not knowing if Luke can escape.
  • Yes it make a sense for Wolf Sazen to kill Stryfe as quick as possible to allow Cade to fight Krayt and possibly win BEFORE THEIR WHOLE ARMY IS DESTROY BY THE SITH ARMY (what is currently happening).


@Nute_Chethray wrote:
Kenobi let Vader win because it was the will of the force, same as Wolf saw it right to sacrifice himself and taking Stryfe with him. In Kenobi’s case however, Vader was ultimately necessary for the Emperor’s defeat. 
This is absolutely false. Kenobi itself admit that if he could he will kill Vader:

A New Hope novel wrote:This is a fight you cannot win, Darth. Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting. If my blade finds its mark, you will cease to exist. But if you cut me down, I will only become more powerful. Heed my words.

In addition if Kenobi didn't want to kill Vader why did he attack him and not only defend himself? Once again your theory is clearly proven wrong.

@Nute_Chethray wrote:You act like this somehow counters my point. You just agreed that a non forceuser could become a force ghost due to his philosophical views. I agree. Its about philosophy and wisdom, not about power. So since someone who couldn’t at all draw upon the force could become a ghost, there is no basis to say that it requires some sort of concentration or that its necessary to gather power to do so. It's all spiritual.  Good we agree.
I agree on the fact that an EX-FORCE USERS can become a force ghost thanks to his philosophical point of view. I also explained that this is an exception, not the generality. 

As explained in Star Wars Sith vs Jedi: The Essential Guide to the Force in order to become a Force Ghost you must want it, it cannot be accidental. Thus if I can concede you that you don't need to gather your force power, it seems logic to  focus yourself before doing it. So my point is still valid, Master Sazen didn't operate at his maximum when facing Stryfe, therefore this wasn't a perfect stalemate.

@Nute_Chethray wrote:And just in case you somehow go back on your word, let's pretend it does require power to become a ghost (all theoretical, just to show I’m not neglecting arguments). The fact that people on their last breath still has enough time and concentration to draw on enough power to become a force ghost, means it won’t really be much power needed at all. 
I never claim the opposite. My first claim was that this wasn't a perfect stalemate between Stryfe and Sazen. 

Partial Conclusion:
The fact that master Sazen become a force ghost during the heart of a fight is a good proof that he wasn't operating at his full capacity.

CONCLUSION OF THIS PART:
My scaling chain is still 100% working :

Wolf Sazen > Darth Stryfe ~ Vector Cade >>>>>>>>>>>> Lifting and throwing on hundred meters, hundred (if not thousand) kilos without being tired after this.

*A MEDIOCRE OPPONENT*






~Dueling skills capacities~


@Nute_Chethray wrote:So according to you, being a warlord automatically makes you equal to Talon physically, a talented sith trained her whole life for combat. While I obviously won’t actually let anyone think I’d even pretend this is true, but it shows how baseless your earlier claim was. 
Imaginary contradiction
I only said that being a warlord make you have a good physical condition, good enough to compete with someone which is a trained warrior. I never speak about the duelling skills of Nihl... It seems that  you are confusing physical condition and skills with a blade.

@Nute_Chethray wrote:The main reason I mentioned Hadiya, is since as she’s a warlord and we have seen her in combat, we know that the one strike she did get in probably was a well-aimed one. The feat is suffering such a wound and still killing a platoon of her best soldiers. 
It clearly seems that you just absolutely ignored the context of what happend when he killed the Queen... something that I gave in my previous post:

@Xolthol wrote:Indeed, just for a remembrance, Lok have played Queen Hadiya and become her general and love interrest. Then he betrayed her and kill her. I agree on the fact that he hesitated (which nearly cost him to die) but clearly the circumstances were still heavily on his favor: the queen was asleep, she thought that he was in love with her. Suddenly she is awaken and see that he is trying to kill her , she have already a blade in her lower rib cage (cf the 4th panel of your scan, we can see that the queen is holding her side and that a blood that isn't Daegen one is spilling)...
Ignoring my argument
Based on this context and even though Queen Hadiya could have been a great fighter, her strike would'nt have been so impactful on Lok.

@Nute_Chethray wrote:Him having killed their warlord is enough to mark him as a traitor
Deagan killed their warlord and, before they know that what he had done, attacked the platoon.

@Nute_Chethray wrote:due to the positioning of their corpses we know they weren’t far apart. You could argue one or two were caught by surprise
They were in the night, Daegan is a skillfull fighter and a force user. There is absolutely not any difficulty for him to slaughter discretely one after the other or by little team of 2/3 the soldiers before the other react.

@Nute_Chethray wrote:the intent was to show he was just massively superior to them
Being able to kill a platoon one man after the other didn't prove that he can defeat the whole platoon fighting together. 

@Nute_Chethray wrote:Beating a platoon of elite nonforceusers isn’t impressive, yet on Geonosis hundreds of jedi including Mace Windu failed to beat a couple droids. Dooku was captured by a group of criminals. Jace Malcolm beat multiple sith. Its not a ground-breaking feat but considering Lok did so while wounded and with only his blade, it's still a good showing of his skill with the blade.
During the clone wars, Windu single handedly slaughter a whole troop of battle droid. Dooku easily slaughtered a team of nightbrother.  Luke Skywalker was able to defeat a little army of YV alone. 

For each of your "good feats" for nonforceusers I can give you low showings. This explicitely shown that nonforceusers aren't a reliable threat. Therefore you cannot use them as solid ground to prove one skill.

@Nute_Chethray wrote:So being an arts master makes you a bad duelist? Fenn immediately calls him arrogant for his attempted insults, and there are countless fighting styles known as “arts” or “dances”. It's just silly to use that as a way to undermine his skills or power
If the writter have the intent to make him a worthy opponent to Lok they would have obviously give him not the mentor of arts. This only prove that even in the writter mind, Lok isn't able to defeat legitimately an artist, not a fighter... What a low showing.
The fact that Fenn was an art master is at least the proof that he isn't focus on war and fighting and thus they aren't his priority. As a result you cannot argue that Fenn is an incredibly skillful duelist and that his cheapshot by Lok prove that the latter have great dueling skills.

@Nute_Chethray wrote:He gave what seemed like weakness and an opening, and thereby tricked Fenn yes. Using intelligence while fighting is always a factor in combat, and even in real life dueling its common to trick your opponent to gain an advantage. 
Are you serious? Daegan Lok was defeat by Fenn and instead of killing him Fenn offer him a chance to surrender. 

Then Daegan use this disposotion of his opponent to defeat him. SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 Surren10
In our fight, this won't happen. If When Master Sazen will defeat Daegan with his lightsaber he will kill him, don't letting him a chance to surrender.

@Nute_Chethray wrote:So flesh raiders barely starting to access the force by training from a jedi padawan already became powerful enough to threaten the entire jedi temple on Tython, and all of the jedi high council - including grand master Satele Shan - were unable to beat them. These flesh raiders practically possessed the mastery of younglings, and were armed with swords and blasters. 
Meanwhile flesh raiders in their prime with lightsabers, experienced in combat and with a better knowledge of the force as former rakatans, were barely able to beat a heavily tortured and mind dominated Daegen Lok who was chained to a rock
Such missinterpretation is amazing. Yes force raiders (not all) in SWTOR had access to the Force. However, in Dawn of the Jedi NONE can use the force. They are just fighters with lightsaber, not force users under the command of the Rakata. Thus the threat that we encounter in SWTOR is way more impressive. 
The fact that they become more powerful is also clearly shown by the codex of swtor about them:

Codex Entries: Flesh Raiders wrote:No one knows where the Flesh Raiders came from. Some speculate they were once a civilized people, driven to cannibalism and madness over years of isolation. Others fear they are the result of dark side experiments. Whatever their origins, the Flesh Raiders have only grown more powerful and numerous over the years, and they are quickly becoming a blight on Tython.

In addition to this you are also doing a huge missinterpretation about the whole context. The TEMPLE on Tython could have been devasted because "The temple masters are all indisposed fighting flesh raiders. I will alert them immediately, but they may be unable to assist you". Thus you understand that the only thing that is proven here is that there is enough flesh raider on Tython to use all the jedi master (this only prove that they are numerous not powerful). Because of this the Temple is whithout any defenser and you (not yet a jedi knight) you stop them. 
The logical conclusion must be that the jedi masters have made a tactical error that could have cost them the temple. However you have zero proof that the flesh raiders were a threat to a Jedi Master, only that they occupied them long enough for the Flesh Raiders to attack the Temple.

Partial Conclusion:
Daegan Lok skills are still at best nebulous and the flesh raiders aren't as powerful as you say thus making the defeat of Lok (I will come back on this point later) more ridiculous.

~Failed Mind Twist~


@Nute_Chethray wrote:Not only was this ranger specifically chosen to hunt Daegen, as well as was aware of his abilities,
Yes she was specially chosen because she was good hunter, not because she can stand against Daegan Lok...

@Nute_Chethray wrote:-Oneshotting through a combat-ready ranger’s defences
-The mind twist being so strong she gains physical injuries (unprecedented amongst all of SW)
-The mind twist lasting despite Lok fighting a je’daii temple master, getting cut across the gut, and despite her being moved to an entirely different planet. Particularly the last part is impressive.  
-The planet the ranger was brought to was Tython, so even on a nexus a planet away she couldn’t break it
I agree on the fact that Daegan Lok was able to do this... However when you see that he failed three times to efficiently mind dominate other people anyone can legimately ask himself to know whether or not he can do this on every adversary and not only on particularly weak mind person.
Another point, you seems to think that Daegan is mind controlling the person that is under his mind twist. It is way more logic for him to create a sort of mental conditionning after breaking the mental defense of his opponent. When done he didn't need to keep controlling his opponent mind and let the mental conditionnig acting.
This is way more logic when you see that the mind twist is still working while far far away from Lok.

@Nute_Chethray wrote:On Bogan Xesh was unable to block the mind twist, he just threatened Lok’s life instead, while Lok wanted Xesh’s help. hardly a legit fight, and only showed that Xesh was unable to block the twist directly. 
If you want I can concede you that Xesh didn't block the mind twist. However it work so bad that Lok was unable to dominate at any level Xesh.
The most you can say is that Xesh was under the mind twist but was still able to anihilate Daegan in a fight.

@Nute_Chethray wrote:Hawk Ryo also was unable to block the twist, and the only reason he wasn’t affected by it was since Lok wanted to show him the vision they had, not to dominate his mind or search his fears. “You…..will…..get….out of my…..mind!” Doesn’t sound like someone who already has blocked it
Same as previously, Lok use a mind twist against his opponent but despite this was defeated in classic combat.

@Nute_Chethray wrote:The last example is the only you gave in which Lok actually tries to use the mind twist in its proper and dangerous form. And he fails yes, but only for two reasons; first of Xesh had already experienced the twist and knew what was coming, and secondly he just let Lok see the horrors he had experienced with the rakatans, he did not actually beat him. “My mind is a place you do not wish to go”
Factually Lok try to mind twist Xesh but once again fail. He was overcome by the horror in Xesh mind. I agree that this is a particular case and thus cannot be use in this combat.

@Nute_Chethray wrote:The injury Fenn suffered was the exact same Lok suffered at the start of their duel, which Lok shrugged off. They would at least be equally hindered by the pain
FALSE: Fenn have one massive injury on his chest in addition and this injured him up to the point where he cannot walk (as I previously explained) while Lok can still stand. 
 
@Nute_Chethray wrote: though Lok should be more hindered by the fact he still held mental control over Zana, and that he hadn’t been in combat or practice for years. 
FALSE: As I explain previously in this post, Lok wasn't mind controlling his opponent but rather create a mental conditionning on his foe. Thus he wasn't mentally controling her.
Yes, Daegen haven't been in combat for years but he should have time to work on his mind twists which didn't recquire any "war situation" to be trained.

@Nute_Chethray wrote:This would mainly be because they strengthen each other, unlocking their full potential. However in the case of someone as highranking as a je’daii temple master, it seems unlikely that they had much more unrealised power left. 
Have you any proof that working together allow them to reach their full potential? Because I don't know any proof of this. It is more than suspect and clearly looks like one of your theory to back up your claim.

The reality is that working together for jedi allow them to open more to the force thus bypassing their physical limit (IE reaching a power way above their full potential). This is clearly shown in the post that I give you:"He drew upon everything, opened every cell of his body to the Force ". 
One could argue that he only reached his full potential and not bypass it (because of the "every cell in his body") however this idea is absolutely false. Indeed, what allow people to use the Force are the midi-chlorian. This is the way Darth tenebrous define midi-chlorian:
The Tenebrous Way wrote:Midi-chlorians were, after all, merely symbiotic organelles that contribute to the organic processes of the living cells they inhabit
As you can see Tenebrous only talk about the cells where midi-chlorian habits, not every cell of you body. Thus it is pretty easy to understand that only part of your cells have midi-chlorian in them. 
As a result, if Dorsk 81 have been able to open all of his cell to the force he had go far above his maximum potential which contradict your theory.

@Nute_Chethray wrote:The scan you posted literary says “All the new jedi knights fought together.” , which only makes sense since all the original trainees were knighted by the end of the JA trilogy. 
I can concede you this point. Nonetheless this is still really impressive for very young jedi knights.

@Nute_Chethray wrote:Considering that we seemingly agree that by joining power one unlocks ones unrealised power, Kyp Durron having the potential to be more powerful than Luke should basically be enough for that feat. Then add the fact that your scan says “But only Dorsk 81 had the bravery and skill to save the jungle moon” and “He used the force more than any of us. He joined himself with the other jedi trainees. He drew upon everything. Opened every cell of his body to the force.” indicates that in that fight, Dorsk was even greater than Kyp. Other students included Streen (Who could stagger a huge sith leviathan by creating massive winds, and could read the minds of everyone on Coruscant unintentionally), Kam Solusar (who oneshotted Vill Goir before his training with Luke even began), and Brakiss (who later manipulated solar flares with no effort). So no, pushing a few star destroyers does not surprise me. 
I don't agree with your theory (as I explained previously). And I have checked the number in the Novel: Darksaber there are around 30 trainees with Dorsk and Kyp. 
What make this impressive is the fact that 30 young jedi knights have been able to push through half the Yavin System (we are talking about millions if not billion of kilometers) a fleet of Star Destroyer. This is clearly insane and far above anything that we have seen so far in the Star Wars mytho. Ts is basically above the capacity of 30 jedi trainees with only one of them opening himself fully to the force.


Partial Conclusion:
Daegen's Mind Twist aren't really efficient as you try to show. They have been ignored in fighting situation and didn't allow Lok to win this confrontation. Knowing how powerful is Master Sazen the mind tricks will be useless.
The feat for the Jedi master cannot be taken as a proof of power for them because of the fact that it is far above the sum of their respective power.

~Failing chain~


@Nute_Chethray wrote:Let's start with the Lok/Xesh fight. Lok had been imprisoned on Bogan for years, never training and even being insane, which we know can hinder both ability to draw on the force and to make sensible decisions in combat. 
Daegen was called insane by the other jed'aii members but never consider himself insane. This argument don't hold a second.
I agree that he wasn't training his combat skills however he can work on his mind trick on Bogan and improve himself so he must have been ready when facing Xesh.

@Nute_Chethray wrote:Furthermore, as you pointed out, Lok didn’t want to kill Xesh, rather he wanted to see if Xesh had the power and skill to be useful. He had no intentions of beating Xesh in the fight, and still was able to surprise and gain hits on Xesh despite the conditions Lok had lived under.
Ignoring my argument
As I previously explained
@Xolthol wrote:One could argument that Daegen Lok didn't want to kill Xesh (which is true) nonetheless Lok have just no reason to deliberately loose to Xesh in order to find his answers. If defeating him was in his range of power he would have done it.
Can you counter this or should I consider that you concede that your theory didn't hold at all?

@Nute_Chethray wrote: He even was capable of sneaking up on Xesh, someone who was able to sense the location of a planet he knew nothing about, as well as learning of the identity of multiple individuals on it.
Oh My God... Your logic is clearly failing again and again. Xesh wasn't trying to know if someone was around him, he was just meditating on what happened. There is  huge difference between Xesh looking for a planet and his inhabitants and Xesh introspecting on the previous days. The former is actively trying to find something, the latter isn't even trying to know what happened around him.
You can find in the following link, what Xesh was thinking before being attacked:
[1]  [2]  [3]  [4]

@Nute_Chethray wrote:So while holding back, a pre-prime Lok who hadn’t been in combat for years and had limited ability to use the force is at least = Xesh. Though considering Lok easily affected his mind it seems likely he could have won through that if he wanted to, so he should actually be > Xesh. 
You are 100% wrong... Xesh defeated Daegen Lok while this latter ambush him and use a mind trick on him, trying to subdue him. So Lok is obviously below Xesh.

@Nute_Chethray wrote:But you make the mistake of thinking that said Xesh is the same as the three journeyers fought.But you make the mistake of thinking that said Xesh is the same as the three journeyers fought.
You are contradicting yourself. Here is what you write on your first post:

Cheth wrote:As Xesh arrived on Tython, a whole ship of darksiders (rakatans), including his own master, died on its surface, and were absorbed into Xesh, making him a darkside nexus. Throwing Tython off-balance. This in turn made massive force storms appear, as well as quickly making the planet destroy itself. Xesh and the force storms fed on each other, both becoming massively powerful.

Can you please clear-up your mind and explain meif you think that

  • Xesh become the nexus just after the crash (your first theory) or after he was hit by the lightning (your second theory)
  • Was the storm the thing that give Xesh is power (2nd thory) or the thing that grows with him becoming massively powerful (1st theory)


Your second theory have a huge problem clearly shown by the scan you give. One of the jedai'i explained that Xesh is the nexus of the storm, not that he just become it (what you claimed). So my scaling chain explaining that Amped Xesh was at most as powerful as 3 journeyers still stand.

@Nute_Chethray wrote: journeyers have finished their training as padawans. Meanwhile Cade never even came that far, and still is stronger than Wolf. Not that you can properly translate skill, mastery and power between the ranks of two completely different orders anyways. It doesn’t even make sense in singular order. Is jedi knight Revan weaker than master Vandar? Is Anakin weaker than Kit Fisto? Is jedi knight Kenobi weaker than Jocasta Nu? 
Except if you can show me that this three journeyers are extremly powerful force users, and in general we have that a young jedi knight is less powerful than a prime jedi master. 
In addition to this even though we cannot precisely say if a jedi knight of era X is more powerful than one of era Y we know that they should be around the same level of power. 

Partial Conclusion:
My scaling chain still perfectly hold:
3 journeyers >= Amped Xesh >>>>> Classic Xesh > Lok.

*NEW DIRECT COMPARISON*




Here I will introduce a direct comparison between Daegen Lok and Wolf Sazen.

I want to introduce to you Korriban ancestral home of the Sith and powerful Dark Side nexus.

FotJ wrote:Welcome to what happens to a planet steeped in the dark side
FotJ wrote:It was worse here than on Ziost

FotJ wrote:
These were worse, much worse, than the citadel. Ben could feel the chill of the dark side increase almost with every step they took. He extended his senses in the Force, bracing himself for the more intimate brush with the dark side energies lurking here like stagnant pools of ice water

FotJ wrote:Dark-side energy, as Luke had warned, was extremely strong here, as strong in its own way as it had felt on Korriban [Luke was on Dromund Kaas]

As you can see, this place is a really really powerful in the Dark Side. As a result nearly all darksiders must be extremly amp. 

On this planet, Antares Draco, an imperial knight fought and slaugthers dozens of Siths attacking him. (Remember that this sith were amp by this colossal DS nexus):
SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 RcO2lBg9m60_Goo_lC4R_c_uU2CObsEtiw5tgt2DqGx7-a3QfDIgrKqHColedFz3fmssYdQNzjDP=s1600
SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 0XFoQ055kz4fVBVrXI1XWLfSauh8Ut55WfkpwXFIbK0tAaaFj1GQXQGY_T8vl8wPY6O0OwRdP6AR=s1600

This same Antares Draco was easily defeated by Darth Havoc (former imperial knight Eskar Nin)
SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 B8nJVOuhJ2MVSaTQ9F94T2XXnJGgsGC-IK6IitPs0DNJu2-T61W6QlGN2fSEI1Jylas6sEg-rdj4=s1600

This same Darth Havok, is a member of the One Sith order and thus is below the top sith of this order, this including Darth Stryfe who is Krayt's Fist and will become (briefly) the hand of Darth Wyyrlock III after the disparition of both Nihl and Talon.

If I'm being extremly generous with you we have that Stryfe is equal to Master Wolf Sazen. Even though I have demonstrate in my previous part of the post that because of the DS galactic influence and the fact that Sazen became one with the force he is more powerful than Stryfe.

Nota Bene: One could argue that because Antares Draco was able to feel the call of Darth Krayt he should be also amp by the Dark Side nexus. However because Draco didn't accept it he isn't able to fully draw on it and thus isn't as amp as the Sith. In addition all that is loose on one side of the scaling chain is earn on the other (IE: if Draco is more powerful his defeat by Darth Havok is more impressive).

With all of this we have this scaling chain:

Wolf Sazen >(=) Stryfe > Darth Havok >>>Antares Draco = Slain dozen of sith on a powerful DS nexus.

Now the comparative feat:

On Tython, Daegen Lok faced dozen of Flesh Raiders who aren't Force users (cf my previous point) on an good position (they can only come by one or two ). After some time he is defeated by them:
SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 A3qjrD1Twm1ez_dGoANhaidtHvP-JHEmJ_bnLoyBIg2QQx_XDc9B8xyLcmDWqW2umy1_SYp9KiCe=s1600
SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 YcQFn9merYvL7IpHa9td9yla05dgUxnYZPB_lQX5PCe4bKzQ22SCdHyZTjGWK86IXTczkS8HfYW4=s1600
As you can see, with this we have that Daegen Lok is approximately as powerful as dozen of Flesh Raiders while on a good position.

Now even if I am extremly generous with you and accept the fact that non-force users can be as powerful as force users amp by a nexus (I don't buy it) I have still a huge scaling chain in favor of Sazen as a far better fighter than Lok.

Partial Conclusion:
Even if I am extremly generous (IE: saying that Sazen and Stryfe are perfectly equal and that Force users amp by a nexus are equal to non force users) this last scaling chain put (once again) Wolf Sazen far above Daegen Lok.

*CONCLUSION*




During his last post my opponent :

  • Ignored my previous argument: 4 times
  • Claimed wrongly that I created contradiction: 3 times
  • Missed my points: 2 times
  • Concede me: 2 points


In addition to this:

  1. he failed to debunked my scaling chain for Master Sazen, 
  2. he didn't give any real proof that Deagen Lok know well how to handle a sword
  3. he didn't shown that Lok mind trick will be efficient on Sazen when you take into account that they failed to impact the issue of some fight
  4. he (unsuccessfully) try to debunk my failing chain by contradicting himself


I also give a new direct comparison between Sazen and Lok which clearly demonstrate that Daegan Lok is way below Master Wolf Sazen.

Instead of trying to respond to my post he should just concede this fight that he cannot win.
xolthol
xolthol
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on March 21st 2020, 1:33 pm
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
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on March 21st 2020, 1:33 pm
hey nice points and arguments :3
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 Empty Re: SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol)

on April 28th 2020, 4:03 pm
@Nute_Chethray When do you plan to respond ?
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray

SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 Empty Re: SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol)

on April 29th 2020, 7:10 am
No idea yet, sorry
xolthol
xolthol
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Champion of the Light

SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 Empty Re: SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol)

on July 4th 2020, 5:35 am
@Nute_Chethray Did you plan to respond one day ?
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray

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on July 4th 2020, 7:46 am
Technically yes, but I think I'll just concede since an unstable schelude + lack of interest in Lok doesn't mix too well.

Sorry to disapoint and for letting you wait so long
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 Empty Re: SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol)

on July 6th 2020, 11:49 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@Nute_Chethray I take this as an official concession.
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray

SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 Empty Re: SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol)

on July 6th 2020, 5:47 pm
@xolthol wrote:@Nute_Chethray I take this as an official concession.
Good debate, sorry for wasting your time SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 1289255181
xolthol
xolthol
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SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol) - Page 3 Empty Re: SS - Daegen Lok (Cheth) vs Wolf Sazen (Xolthol)

on July 8th 2020, 7:16 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@Nute_Chethray No problem

@DarthAnt66 Can you move this to the right place
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