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IG
IG
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SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG) Empty SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG)

on March 18th 2020, 1:31 pm
XOLTHOL IS THE WINNER VIA DISQUALIFICATION

SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG) Ti_tol10
Shaak Ti as of The Force Unleashed, Tol Braga as of Act 3 of the Jedi Knight Storyline (DS Braga)

This thread follows all default stipulations listed in the Guidelines thread. Additional rules are as follows:

  • Feats take precedence over directly and indisputably contradicted statements.
  • Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case must be made within the debate itself.
  • All letter or number statistics ascribed to characters from C-Canon sources, including role-playing games and trading cards, are banned.


There will be 3 posts per side, and a 7500 character finisher with two weeks for both debaters to write each. 

@xolthol Will be opening.
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG) Empty Re: SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG)

on March 18th 2020, 1:33 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@IG I think that I will make the opening in the week
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Four
Level Four

SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG) Empty Re: SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG)

on March 18th 2020, 1:43 pm
Fuck, nice to see some Braga respect. I love the character.

TAEP, please. I always enjoy these matchups with less used characters.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Three
Level Three

SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG) Empty Re: SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG)

on March 18th 2020, 1:44 pm
Good luck to both, TAEP
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG) Empty Re: SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG)

on March 18th 2020, 1:52 pm
TAEP
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray

SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG) Empty Re: SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG)

on March 19th 2020, 10:37 am
Looks interesting. Good luck both
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG) Empty Re: SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG)

on March 29th 2020, 9:30 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

- FROM DARKNESS TO LIGHT: SUCCESS vs FAILURE - 




In this opener, I will compare a feat from both characters in order to show the clear superiority of Shaak-Ti over Tol Braga.


~FAILING TO CONVERT THE EMPEROR~


The aim of the chapter II of the story Arc of the Jedi Knight (aka the HoT) is to create a team of Jedi and to find the secret fortress of the Emperor in order to capture him and then to save him from the Dark Side of the Force.

In order to achieve this, Master Tol Braga assemble a powerful team of Jedi included:
- the Hero of Tython 
- Warren Sedoru
- Leeha Narezz
- himself

Both Master Tol Braga and the HoT have already during their life convert a sith from the DS to the LS. 

Codex Entry: Jedi Master Tol Braga wrote:Respectfully referred to as "the conscience of the Jedi Order," Master Tol Braga is a thoughtful scholar, a wise strategist and an avowed pacifist. His greatest achievement as a Jedi to date was when he dueled Sith Lord Darth Sajar to a draw--and then convinced the enemy to abandon the path of darkness and train as a Jedi.

Although most Padawans assume Master Braga developed his opposition to warfare during the Great War, it began much earlier. His first mission as a young Jedi was to intervene in a violent civil conflict on the planet Duro. Master Braga saw firsthand the horrors that occur when people take up arms against their own kind, and it forever changed his outlook

The Hero of Tython himself save from the Dark Side Lord Praven during their encounter on Tatooine, after defeating him. This is particularly impressive when you note that Lord Praven was "fiercely loyal to the Emperor and an ardent believer in the philosophical teaching of the Dark Side" (Codex Entry: Lord Praven).

Despite all of this knowledge and power gathered by Master Tol Braga, when they faced the Emperor they just failed: defeated by his power and corrupted by the Dark Side of the Force. Master Braga himself accepted the Dark Side:

Codex Entry: The Fall of Tol Braga wrote:Once a respected member of the Jedi Council and its most fervent advocate for peace, Master Tol Braga now willingly serves the Sith Emperor. His confrontation with that foe showed him the nature of true evil and revealed a powerful force he had grossly underestimated. Master Braga's failure to redeem the Emperor broke his spirit. With his pride and faith shattered, he succumbed to nihilistic despair.

Unlike Warren Sedoru and Leeha Narezz, Master Braga did not require the Emperor's oppressive domination to remain obedient. He knowingly surrendered to the power of the dark side, believing it was his punishment for allowing pride to blind him to the Sith's true nature.

As you can see, this mission was a full failure for Tol Braga who despite being helped by some really powerful allies, such as the Hero of Tython (*) or Warren Sedoru (**), failed to convert the Emperor to the Light Side and fall himself to the Dark Side.


Nota Bene: On the power of the allies of Master Braga
(*)
 The Hero of Tython is qualified by Master Satele as "a jedi without equal". And this is prior a full story arc of growth. Clearly showing that the HoT isn't some random jedi knight.
(**)
Codex Entry: Warren Sedoru wrote:Warren Sedoru was already one of the most acclaimed Jedi Knights of the order when the Sith Empire attacked the Republic at Korriban. He was one of the first Jedi to lead a counterattack against Imperial forces and scored several early victories against them. The price of these triumphs was high, however.

Records indicate Warren was critically injured over a dozen times in battles from Alderaan to Yavin Four. Although he survived these near-deaths without need of cybernetic replacement parts, Warren's connection to the Force began to diminish. When the Republic signed the Treaty of Coruscant, Warren dedicated himself wholeheartedly to peace. He gave up his rank as Jedi Knight and became a Padawan to Master Tol Braga
The important point here is the fact that despite being not in his prime he just began to decrease on power, actually showing that he is still powerful.


~Turning a DS nexus into a LS one~



One of the most famous feat of the Jedi Master Shaak-Ti was when she sucessfully turn the planet Felucia into a Light Side nexus: 

  • "She was responsible for the planet imbalance
  • "so profoundly entangled had she become in the energy flows of the world"
  • "She had taken a world enjoying the normal flows between the light and the dark sides of the Force and twisted it out of balance. There was still darkness on Felucia, but it was stifled, frustrated, weakened"



An interresting thing for this feat is that Felucia is naturely prone to the Dark Side of the Force. Indeed Master Kota explained to Galen Marek:"Shaak Ti was the only thing keeping it from being consumed by darkness". 
This theory is further confirm by Maris Brood who explained that after the death of Shaak Ti the Dark Side of this planet corrupted her:

  • "This planet is evil. It corrupted me!"
  • "Oh, we're not crazy. We've just embraced the power of the dark side"
  • "Shaak Ti abandoned me on this horrible planet. Felucia is evil. It corrupted me"



Lets sum-up this: Shaak-Ti spent 16 years on Felucia, keeping it as a planetary Light Side Nexus despite the fact that this planet is prone to the Dark Side and can even corrupt light-side users like Maris Brood.

The question that remain is: Can we compare a Dark Side nexus to a powerful Dark Side user?

It seems that there is two main differences between a DS user and a DS nexus:

  1. DS user have a WILL
  2. DS user can use FORCE POWER


The important thing here is to remember that our context here is about converting someone/something to the light side. Thus using your force power isn't something that must be taken into account. 
As a result only one point seems to matter: the will of the DS user. However we know from various description of DS nexus that they have a sort of personality, even a sort of will:

  • On Korriban: "He extended his senses in the Force, bracing himself for the more intimate brush with the dark side energies lurking here like stagnant pools of ice water" (FotJ)
  • On Dromund Kaas: "There [Korriban] it had been intense and almost arrogant, power-hungry. Here those dark energies felt more insidious, more purely evil for evil’s sake than fuel for a lust for power" (FotJ)
  • On Zigoola: "This time it was as though an army of Sith had bent their malevolent minds upon him" (Wild Space)


With this in mind, I want to remember you that the DS of the Force rely on emotions such as : lust for power, hatred, anger, fear,... Based on this it is obvious that a place stepped into the DS of the Force will resist being clean from it. 
The conclusion here is: YES we can compare a DS Nexus and a Powerful DS user.

~CONCLUSION~


Lets compare the two achievement:

Master Tol Braga with a team including the HoT, a powerful Jedi Knight and another Jedi failed to convert the Emperor to the Light Side and Master Braga fell to the DS of the Force VS Master Shaak-Ti alone success to convert a planetary dark side nexus into a light side nexus and hold it in this state for 16 years.

As you can easily see Shaak-Ti is another league entirely than Tol Braga, being able alone to sucess and for 16 years where the Kel-Dorian master with help failed and succombed to the Dark Side.

This is a clear proof of an insane superiority in term of Force Power which will give her the win in this fight.
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG) Empty Re: SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG)

on March 29th 2020, 10:07 am
IG
IG
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SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG) Empty Re: SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG)

on March 29th 2020, 10:16 am
@xolthol Good post, I'll have mine up within the week.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
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SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG) Empty Re: SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG)

on March 29th 2020, 12:14 pm
Goood goood post  SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG) 3344068304
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray

SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG) Empty Re: SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG)

on March 30th 2020, 4:53 pm
Nice post SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG) 1289255181
IG
IG
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SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG) Empty Re: SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG)

on April 3rd 2020, 8:50 am
Never happened.


Last edited by IG on April 3rd 2020, 10:34 am; edited 1 time in total
The Lost
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SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG) Empty Re: SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG)

on April 3rd 2020, 8:51 am
Voting Xolthol for making an argument
Master Azronger
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SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG) Empty Re: SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG)

on April 3rd 2020, 10:12 am
ILS wrote:Voting Xolthol for making an argument

_________________
SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG) Sheev_sig_3
NotAA3
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SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG) Empty Re: SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG)

on April 3rd 2020, 10:27 am
Azronger wrote:
ILS wrote:Voting Xolthol for making an argument
IG
IG
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SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG) Empty Re: SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG)

on April 3rd 2020, 10:32 am
Eh, fuck it, I'll post my thing.
IG
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SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG) Empty Re: SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG)

on April 3rd 2020, 10:33 am
Section I - People Are Not Planets



The aim of the chapter II of the story Arc of the Jedi Knight (aka the HoT) is to create a team of Jedi and to find the secret fortress of the Emperor in order to capture him and then to save him from the Dark Side of the Force.


In order to achieve this, Master Tol Braga assemble a powerful team of Jedi included:
- the Hero of Tython 
- Warren Sedoru
- Leeha Narezz
- himself


Both Master Tol Braga and the HoT have already during their life convert a sith from the DS to the LS. 


The Hero of Tython himself save from the Dark Side Lord Praven during their encounter on Tatooine, after defeating him. This is particularly impressive when you note that Lord Praven was "fiercely loyal to the Emperor and an ardent believer in the philosophical teaching of the Dark Side" (Codex Entry: Lord Praven).


Despite all of this knowledge and power gathered by Master Tol Braga, when they faced the Emperor they just failed: defeated by his power and corrupted by the Dark Side of the Force. Master Braga himself accepted the Dark Side:




You’re saying this like it’s a bad thing. Braga’s an idealist, he’s the guy that tries to save everyone, redeem everyone, it’s why he engaged in a 3 day long duel against a member of the Dark Council, to try to redeem him. But in your post you liken turning a nexus from neutral to light to redeeming a person from the dark side. This is a completely baseless idea. Your reasoning is as follows:



The question that remain is: Can we compare a Dark Side nexus to a powerful Dark Side user?


It seems that there is two main differences between a DS user and a DS nexus:


  • DS user have a WILL

  • DS user can use FORCE POWER




The important thing here is to remember that our context here is about converting someone/something to the light side. Thus using your force power isn't something that must be taken into account. 
As a result only one point seems to matter: the will of the DS user. However we know from various description of DS nexus that they have a sort of personality, even a sort of will:


  • On Korriban: "He extended his senses in the Force, bracing himself for the more intimate brush with the dark side energies lurking here like stagnant pools of ice water" (FotJ)

  • On Dromund Kaas: "There [Korriban] it had been intense and almost arrogant, power-hungry. Here those dark energies felt more insidious, more purely evil for evil’s sake than fuel for a lust for power" (FotJ)
  • On Zigoola: "This time it was as though an army of Sith had bent their malevolent minds upon him" (Wild Space)




With this in mind, I want to remember you that the DS of the Force rely on emotions such as : lust for power, hatred, anger, fear,... Based on this it is obvious that a place stepped into the DS of the Force will resist being clean from it. 
The conclusion here is: YES we can compare a DS Nexus and a Powerful DS user.




Red Text - Here you explicitly say that force power is not taken into account when converting something to the dark side. A point that I accept, as it’s true. 


Purple Text - Here, you explicitly claim will is all that’s determined through redeeming something in the dark, or turning something to the light. Thus further ratifying the idea that force power is not a factor in regards to turning someone back from the dark, or turning a nexus to the light. 


Blue Text - But then here, you completely go back against all that you’ve said. Explicitly, you claim in the text in red, that “force power isn’t something that must be taken into account”, yet you go back on this, claiming that we can compare turning a DS nexus and a Dark Sided Force User, specifically in the amount of force power required. This is completely false. The difference between a planetary nexus and an immensely powerful force user is pretty simple, one is a physical object, steeped in the force, whereas the other is a living being, a complex being, with emotion, with humanity, etc. Converting a living being from the Dark to the Light is no simple matter of imposing your will upon it, as Shaak Ti did to the planet of Felucia, but it is appealing to the humanity in them, to convince them to join the side of the light, as the HoT did Praven, and as Braga did Sajar. 


Your entire argument here is reliant on a simple assumption, that Shaak Ti’s conversion of a planetary nexus is somehow comparable to attempting to convert Emperor Vitiate to the light. This argument falls flat in many respects. Firstly, it relies on the assumption that Vitiate is weaker than the Felucian nexus (which you have not substantiated in any way shape or form). Next, it relies on the idea that conversion to the light is based on force power and will, neither of which are true in the case of a being like Vitiate. These two assumptions are not only unsubstantiated by you, but they ultimately have no basis in fact whatsoever. Thus, the idea that Ti is more powerful than Braga falls flat, and with it, your entire argument. 


Section II - Force Lysergic Acid Diethylamide


As you’ve already cited, Braga doesn’t require continuous domination by Vitiate, as the HoT, Narezz, and Sedoru did, he “knowingly surrendered to the dark side”. Per Nick Gillard, “Once you get to [tier] 7 or 8, you could easily jump up to 9, but that’s the difference between light and dark”. Gillard explicitly notes here that once fighters can reach level 7 or 8, the dark provides an easy path to become a 9. Braga jumping a tier via the Dark Side is not an unsubstantiated stance, as it’s supported by Gillard yet again, when he describes a turn to the dark as taking “Force LSD”. The HoT, as early as Act I is “a Jedi with no equal”, and is generally the most powerful in the Order, including Braga. But after the latter turns, he is defeated by the HoT in a “hard-fought battle”.  Just generally, this is indicative of enormous growth, but even before his turn to the dark, Braga was a formidable foe. 



Star Wars: The Old Republic wrote:MASTER TOL BRAGA has gathered a team of the galaxy's most powerful Jedi. Their goal: find the Emperor's hidden fortress, infiltrate its defenses, capture the Emperor and bring him back to the Jedi Order.



This quote explicitly states that the Strike Team that confronted Vitiate consists of “the galaxy’s most powerful Jedi”, including the Barsen’thor as of Act II. The Barsen’thor is far more powerful than their Act I iteration, who’s more powerful than Lord Vivicar.  According to the Barsen’thor’s master Youn Par, “The plague created a link between my mind and his [Vivicar]” Other quotes also imply a telepathic link: 


“I could feel someone else in my mind. Polluting my thoughts, twisting them,”


“Lord Vivicar twisted my mind,” 


“I saw what Lord Vivicar was able to do to Master Yuon. I'm not surprised he was able to twist your thoughts as well,”


Jedi Master Wole Vahn claims, “It's most like the Jedi trick of persuading weak minds through the Force, except Yuon's tormenter is distant, and her mind hardly weak.” The Jedi are bound to Vivicar in such a way that if he himself died, they would as well, an eventuality that occurs should the Barsen'thor kill Vivicar. According to Syo Bakarn, should the Barsen’thor kill Vivicar, “Dozens of Jedi Masters have died [...] maybe hundreds”. 


Then we look at Ti fighting Galen Marek, a fight that she (at best) stalemates him in. 
 

The Force Unleashed wrote:He didn't believe that for a second. With a flick of one wrist, he ripped a mushroom out of the sarlacc's skin and threw it at her head.
She flicked it away with the Force, barely moving an eyebrow.
"You reek of that coward Vader," she said, unfurling her legs and standing in one smooth movement. Her horn-like montrals framed her red-skinned face like an elaborate headdress. The white oval patches around her eyes gave her a slightly startled look, but the apprentice was under no illusion that he had surprised her. She was dressed in the fashion of the Felucians, in a garment made of vegetable material-some still living, judging by the mossy sheen on her belt - and bone. Her striped lekku hung well out of the way down her back, adorned by ribbons and decorative tassels.
He raised the tip of his lightsaber in challenge, but still she didn't reach for hers.
"My Master is not a coward," he said.
"Then why are you here in his place?" she asked with a knowing smile. "Welcome to the Ancient Abyss, a place of sacrifice since time immemorial."
He smiled, letting anger fuel his hatred for her and for all that the Jedi represented. With the dark side behind him, he reached out for the mind of the sarlacc and goaded it to lash out at her.
All the creature did was roar. It resisted him, he realized, with her help.
She smiled in mockery. "Are you prepared to meet your fate?" Then her lightsaber was lit and she was spinning through the air toward him, striking downward as she fell.
The apprentice simultaneously backflipped and blocked her opening blow. The force of it surprised him, and the recoil threw him backward. His hood caught on one of the sarlacc's teeth, and he tore it impatiently away before the snag could interfere with his defense. Shaak Ti's lightsaber was a jagged blue blur between them. He blocked her as best he could until he had his balance again.
Then he jumped. Over her he spun and fell down two layers of teeth toward the mouth of the sarlacc. From there he jumped up again, angling away from her to avoid giving the Jedi the advantage of height, but she was there ahead of him, driving him back down with a series of blows so rapid he barely caught them all.
In desperation, he summoned a bolt of Sith lightning and sent it down, into the flesh of the sarlacc. The beast roared and shook, giving him the opening he needed. Shaak Ti's right foot slipped, forcing her to flip elegantly out of reach of his blade. He leapt after her, swinging as he came.
The fight progressed around the sarlacc's center rings, blow and counterblow accompanied by the roaring of the beast. The apprentice cut off teeth and threw the fragments at his adversary's head. In return she took tighter control of the beast's distributed intelligence and sent its food-seeking tentacles flailing for him. He repulsed them and fought on.
Down they drove each other, closer and closer to the very lip of the creature's enormous mouth. The air was foul down there, heavy with digestive by-products and the stink of rotting meat. Ghastly exhalations rolled over them as the sarlacc roared on. The apprentice was running out of teeth to sever, so he resorted more and more frequently to Sith lightning and random slashes of his lightsaber to keep it twitching underfoot. Thick ichor leaking out of the wounds made the footing even more treacherous.
"You can't keep this up forever," he taunted Shaak Ti as they dueled.
"Neither can you," she said. "You are wasting your strength too quickly."
"The dark side is inexhaustible."
"Your strength is prodigious," she admitted, "but that is your doing. Light, dark..." She paused to aim a blow at his head that he barely deflected. "They are just directions. Do not be fooled that you stand on anything other than your own two feet."
He slashed at her own feet as they spun by overhead and sent one of her ribbons twirling down into the sarlacc's gaping mouth. "Spare me the philosophy lesson, Jedi," he snarled. "I'm only here for your blood."
"And you may yet have it, or I yours."
On her last three words, she struck three blows that each partially found their mark. The first burned a sizzling line down the apprentice's left shoulder. The second scored diagonally across his chest. The third would have skewered his right eye had he not held her back at the last minute with a desperate telekinetic block that stopped her lightsaber barely a millimeter from his skin. He could feel his eyelashes and eyebrows burning. The right side of his sight was entirely blue.
She gasped and staggered backward. Her lightsaber and her gaze dropped. A full half meter of red blade emerged from her stomach, then the rest came free with a hiss.
He backed away, shocked by how close he had come to death and how lucky he had been to defeat her. He had raised his lightsaber by reflex. She had, in the desperation of her final assault, practically thrown herself on the blade. Perhaps she had meant for the two of them to defeat each other at the same time.
Her weakening fingers let go of her lightsaber, which deactivated with a click as it spun away into the sarlacc's mouth. She didn't look angry, just weary and in pain. Her red skin was suddenly very pale.
He feinted toward her, but she didn't react in any way, except to look at him.
"You are Vader's slave," she breathed, "but your power is wasted with him. You could be so much more."
"You'll never convince me to betray my Master." He was shocked that she would try such a weak gambit again. Were these the depths to which the Jedi had sunk?
"Poor boy." She winced. "The Sith always betray one another - but I'm sure you'll learn that-soon enough..."
There was pity in her eyes as they rolled up into her head. She went limp and fell back into the mouth of the sarlacc. The apprentice reached out halfheartedly to catch her body, but was too slow. A second later, he wished that he had tried harder.
A huge explosion of Force energy threw him bodily off his feet. The sarlacc went berserk. Its tentacles lashed out at him and its surface quaked violently, trying to toss him into its waiting maw. He dodged the tentacles' frenzied lunges as best he could and dived for safety onto the town street.

This is the same Galen Marek that is stalemated by a Shadow Guard, after this engagement:



The Force Unleashed wrote:Out of the cloud of metal fragments leapt a second of the Emperor's Sith assassins, saber-staff upraised. The apprentice met him with a clash of sparks and lightning. Sith against Sith, they fought backward and forward through the broad, metal-lined space. This assassin was more proficient than the first, wiry and strong with a good reach and penchant for telekinetically throwing items from inside the apprentice's blind spot. He proved to be tough work until the apprentice wrenched the next giant fan off its gimbals and sent it spinning through the air. The black guard seemed so stunned by the sight of it that he didn't jump until it was too late. One spinning blade took his right leg off at the knee. From then, the fight was over.



Shadow Guards are indubitably inferiors of Darth Vader:




The Official Starships And Vehicles Collection 63 wrote:In that particular instance, Bane and Sidious were foiled, but Sidious' basic aims remained. He sought to create a network of Force-wielding agents loyal only to him. None would be trained sufficiently to be a threat to Darth Bane's insistence that there only be two Sith, nor would they be a threat to Darth Sidious or his apprentice, Darth Vader. The most powerful of these agents were "only" Sith adepts but would appear almost as dark Jedi - the likes of Asajj Ventress, Mara Jade, or Inquisitor Valin Draco (in fact, a fallen Jedi). The lesser agents were reduced to still-deadly faceless minions. Among their ranks were the Shadow Guard.

This quote has been called into question on the grounds that it’s only referring to the fact that they’d be trained not to be a threat, not that they couldn’t be a threat. However, we see Mara Jade, as the Emperor’s hand being noted as a decisive inferior to Vader:
SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG) L15IImX5NSdgxAaabOvfDSxN5sAqKC2dkbj48PQjJfOUxDqe7XH2PscO0lTj92sQrTgjMpTo1-dasUpsO5HWI1unYMKDdqYLSwm7UpguSaw1-XwB8ENW8SDDmDT1dwXjIVI0nNXc
Mara explicitly is denied permission to go after Kuro, someone who Vader fares extremely well against. Yet she is no “lesser agent”, as compared to the Shadow Guards. Galen is pressed and nigh-stalemated in CQC by a “faceless minion”. Now, can we see a Shaak Ti, someone at the level of Early-Game Galen Marek, someone that’s decisively inferior to Mara Jade in her Hand days posing even a minor threat to Darth Vader? 
This is important because of Vader’s immense inferiority to Vivicar, evident through Telepathy. Where Vivicar successfully drains and TPs hundreds of Jedi Masters, Vader struggles with a single Toydarian:

Star Wars Jedi vs. Sith - The Essential Guide to the Force wrote:"These creatures have become such an irritation that every time I see one I want to strike it down with my lightsaber. Be that as it may, I interviewed a Toydarian subject who showed a great amount of resistance to Force suggestion, up to the point that I created physical discomfort. I found that they can be easily intimidated by a demonstration of strength. And it proved relatively simple to cause it to expire, merely by making its existence extremely painful. Ultimately, though it showed a great degree of willpower, it was no match for the power of the Force."



Vader struggles to mind trick the Toydarian and ultimately resorts to torture in order to succeed. Now contrast this to Vivicar, is there any indication of Vader even being comparable? Like, Vivicar successfully dominates hundreds of Jedi Masters, and Vader, Ti’s superior is struggling to TP a single Toydarian. This comparison shows Ti’s utter irrelevance before Braga in terms of the Force, an advantage Braga can easily exploit and outright annihilate Ti with. 
Conclusion
To restate a majority of what I’ve already said, Ti’s influence of Felucia and Braga’s failure to convert Vitiate are two completely unrelated and uncomparable feats. Braga has far more power in the force than Ti via Vivicar and Vader, and will thus win this fight, because Ti is simply not comparable. 
@xolthol 
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SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG) Empty Re: SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG)

on April 3rd 2020, 10:39 am
ILS wrote:Voting Xolthol for making an argument
The lord of hunger
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SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG) Empty Re: SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG)

on April 3rd 2020, 12:14 pm
> Korriban wrote:
ILS wrote:Voting Xolthol for making an argument
xolthol
xolthol
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SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG) Empty Re: SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG)

on April 3rd 2020, 12:38 pm
@IG great post, I hope that I can respond in the coming week.
xolthol
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SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG) Empty Re: SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG)

on April 14th 2020, 9:08 am
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
I-Failure vs Success:

@IG wrote:You’re saying this like it’s a bad thing. Braga’s an idealist, he’s the guy that tries to save everyone, redeem everyone, it’s why he engaged in a 3 day long duel against a member of the Dark Council, to try to redeem him.

The only bad thing that I explained is that despite being backed-up by an incredibly powerful team Tol-Braga failed and was corrupted by the Dark Side.

@IG wrote: Here you explicitly say that force power is not taken into account when converting something to the dark side. A point that I accept, as it’s true. 
I think that you miss my point, or maybe I didn't made it clear enough. Let me precise my thoughts. When I said: "Thus using your force power isn't something that must be taken into account" I wasn't talking about the power in the Force of someone but I was talking about force powers (such as TK, TP, FL,...). 
My point was: when you convert someone to the other side of the Force you didn't need to use offensive force powers

@IG wrote:Here, you explicitly claim will is all that’s determined through redeeming something in the dark, or turning something to the light. Thus further ratifying the idea that force power is not a factor in regards to turning someone back from the dark, or turning a nexus to the light
Sadly, you forgot that there is a direct link between your Force Power and your Will. 

This is true for a sith as explained by Darth Wyyrlok:
Legacy Era Campaign Guide wrote:Darth Wyyrlok believes that it is willpower that gives the Sith their strength. By sheer force of will, a Sith can achieve almost anything, and Darth Wyyrlok displays this in everything he does

but it is also true for a Jedi. Indeed, the very basic of the jedi is to confom his will to the will of the Force. A Jedi which isn't in peace with himself (IE: who isn't in perfect accordance to the will of the Force) will be weakened and thus not work at his full potential. 

As you can see there isn't any contradiction in my argument.

@IG wrote:The difference between a planetary nexus and an immensely powerful force user is pretty simple, one is a physical object, steeped in the force, whereas the other is a living being, a complex being, with emotion, with humanity, etc.

As I have shown in my previous post, we can easily saw that a Dark Side nexus has also a will and a sort of personality (specificity) that like human being made him unique:

@Xolthol wrote:we know from various description of DS nexus that they have a sort of personality, even a sort of will:


  • On Korriban: "He extended his senses in the Force, bracing himself for the more intimate brush with the dark side energies lurking here like stagnant pools of ice water" (FotJ)
  • On Dromund Kaas: "There [Korriban] it had been intense and almost arrogant, power-hungry. Here those dark energies felt more insidious, more purely evil for evil’s sake than fuel for a lust for power" (FotJ)
  • On Zigoola: "This time it was as though an army of Sith had bent their malevolent minds upon him" (Wild Space)



@IG wrote:Converting a living being from the Dark to the Light is no simple matter of imposing your will upon it, as Shaak Ti did to the planet of Felucia, but it is appealing to the humanity in them, to convince them to join the side of the light, as the HoT did Praven, and as Braga did Sajar. 
While this can be maybe true for some people, you can see that the very thing that turned Praven and Sajar to the LightSide was their defeat/stalemate at the hand of the HoT and Braga, absolutely not a discussion. At this time, their will have been eroded enough (by the defeat) to be converted by the argument of their opponent.

For Vitiate, this is an entirely different matter. When the fight takes place, it is obvious that Vitiate was already attacking their mind, trying to impose his will to the strike team. Master Tol Braga explicitely said: "Fight Back! We can resist him!". 

As a result, we have the fact that Vitiate will > Braga + HoT + Sedoru + Leeha will. A common mistake is to think that what defeat the strike team is Vitiate FL but when you see what happened [HERE]  you can see that they didn't fall like people strikes by FL [HERE] . They aren't projected to the ground but instead fall slowly.

Thus FOR THIS CONFRONTATION turning Vitiate to the Light Side was a confrontation of will so of Force Power.

@IG wrote:It relies on the assumption that Vitiate is weaker than the Felucian nexus (which you have not substantiated in any way shape or form)

Indeed, so lets jump into this comparison of the two things, taking into account the full context. 


Vitiate wasn't at full power. Indeed while confronting the strike team, he was still: keeping Vaylin under his control from the other side of the galaxy and having a part of his power drawn by the Child of the Emperor ("the children are infused with the Emperor's strength, sharing some measure of his thoughts and power for the rest of their lives"). 

The Felucian Nexus was planetary wide. The planet was completely overgrown with vegetation: "the planet must be completely overgrown" (we know that more life on a planet imply that the living force is more abondant so the Force more powerful). There was force users on this planet and part of them were "among the most talented natural Force-users in the galaxy" and also "shown both interest and exceptional aptitude in the Force". 

Thus it isn't at all illogical to say that there is a clear level of parity between the Felucian nexus and Vitiate as of Force power. 

If you take in addition:

  1. Braga was helped vs Shaak was alone
  2. Braga failed vs Shaak succeed
  3. Braga was dismissed in minutes if not seconds vs Shaak hold this for 16 years


This is a clear proof that Shaak-Ti is way more powerful than Tol Braga in term of Force power.

II- Failing attempt to scale Tol-Braga over Shaak-Ti

~ Vivicar's Scaling Chain ~

If I sum-up your scaling chain you give us:

DS Tol Braga >>> LS Tol Braga > Act II Barsen'thor >> Act I Barsen'thor > Lord Vivicar = mind corrupting hundreds of Jedi Masters through the galaxy

But this scaling chain have many flaws, lets focus on them. 

@IG wrote:Braga jumping a tier via the Dark Side is not an unsubstantiated stance, as it’s supported by Gillard yet again, when he describes a turn to the dark as taking “Force LSD”. The HoT, as early as Act I is “a Jedi with no equal”, and is generally the most powerful in the Order, including Braga. But after the latter turns, he is defeated by the HoT in a “hard-fought battle”.  Just generally, this is indicative of enormous growth, 

Lets think a second about this theory. 
DS Master Braga said: "Every being [...]is weak and useless. All except him [Vitiate]" also "Go to him. You will see how pointless our struggles have been" and "Even in his weakened state, you are no match for him". 

This clearly shown us that despite having fight the Hero of Tython and knowing the Emperor, Braga think that the HoT stands no chance against Vitiate. 
And he didn't even take into account the DS nexus of Dromund Kaas. 

But after going on the Dark Temple, a focus point of the Dark Side, the HoT defeated the Emperor. So basically we have that:

Act III HoT >>>Act III HoT(hindered by Dromund Kaas Nexus)> Weakened Vitiate (amped by  Dromund Kaas Nexus)>>> Weakened Vitiate>>>>> Act III HoT viewed by Tol Braga > Tol Braga.

We have now two possibilities:

  • the Hero get the most insane growth of powers between the defeat of Tol Braga and the confrontation with the Emperor (we are talking about a matter of days at best)
  • the HoT was far from working at 100% against Tol Braga.


The first possibility is just ridiculous and thus only remains the second one. As a result your claim about the "enormous growth" is just baseless. 

For the Nick Gillard claim about the Force LSD that the Dark Side must be, I think that you are missinterpreted his explanation. Going to the dark side didn't increase your Force Potential, but it makes it easy and faster for you to reach your full potential. But here we are talking about an already fully grown Jedi Master, he must have already achieved his full potential so going to the Dark Side won't increase his power.
 
@IG wrote:This quote explicitly states that the Strike Team that confronted Vitiate consists of “the galaxy’s most powerful Jedi”, including the Barsen’thor as of Act II

This theory have several problems. 

First of all, Master Tol Braga when explaining what he intend to do said: "I'm organizing a top secret strike team of our best and brightess Jedi who didn't know the meaning of failure". This directly explained that he didn't only gathered a team based on their power but also on their abilities. 

For example do you really believe that Leeha is more powerful than Act I Barsen'thor?
 
Just remember that the Barsen'thor is the third  jedi in the whole history of the order to receive this title: "In all our millenia of history you will be the third to carry the title". And just remember that this title: "is reserved for the most prestigious among us, whoose wisdom and skill safeguard the galaxy." And that defeat Lord Vivicar (you just give us the scaling for Vivicar).
At the opposite, we have Leeha Narezz who ask for the help of the HoT to "clear the way" against members of the Empire and pirates. In addition n Hoth she was injured by a turrets : "I blundered in here like a Padawan. The heavy turrets were an unpleasnt surprise" "You have been shot. Is it bad? I'll survive... for now".

No clearly this make no sense for her to be above the Barsen'thor. 

Based on this, we can shed a new light on this quote about "the galaxy's most powerful Jedi". We know that the HoT is the most powerful champion of the light at this time. So yes at least one members is a among the galaxy's most powerful Jedi. But this absolutely not include the remaining members of this team. 

Another interresting thing that you seems to have missed is the way both quotes that you and I give clearly explained that Master Braga was the brain behind the strike team "Master Tol Braga has gathered" "I'm organizing". This obviously place him as the leader of the strike team however this didn't even include him in this quote. So even if you think that Leeha Narezz is more powerful than the barsen'thor (which is an illogic and baseless point of view) and that your quote is 100% true, it did not apply to Master Tol Braga.

As a result, your scaling for Tol Braga from Lord Vivicar didn't hold at all.

~Failing to scale Shaak-Ti ~

@IG wrote:Then we look at Ti fighting Galen Marek, a fight that she (at best) stalemates him in

Yes this fight was a stalemate. But you forget the whole context of the fight... Shaak-Ti was keeping the whole planet as a Light Side nexus {1}, restraining the dark side inherent to this place {2}, and nerfing the force power of the Felucian population on the planet {3}
It is extremly easy to understand that she wasn't at all in fighting at 100% while facing Galen Marek. She was insanely disadvantaged and thus her performance is absolutely not relevant in regard to her fighting on neutral ground.

As a result all your scaling chain once again just fail

{1}"Shaak Ti was the only thing keeping it from being consumed by darkness"

{2}"She had taken a world enjoying the normal flows between the light and the dark sides of the Force and twisted it out of balance. There was still darkness on Felucia, but it was stifled, frustrated, weakened"

{3}"Without Shaak Ti keeping their innate Force sensitivity in check, the native Felucian species fought him every step of the way"


CONCLUSION:

I have clearly shown that the failure of master Braga and the success of Master Ti are fully comparable.
You have absolutely failed to prove that Braga scaled from Vivicar.
You have forget the whole context of Ti's fight against Marek and thus create a false scaling chain.

The ball is in your court now!

@NotAA3 @HellfireUnit @Nute_Chethray @The lord of hunger @IG @The Lost @Azronger @> Korriban
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SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG) Empty Re: SS - Shaak Ti (Xolthol) vs. Tol Braga (IG)

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