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KF Vader runs the TK tug-of-war gauntlet

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KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Three
Level Three

KF Vader runs the TK tug-of-war gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: KF Vader runs the TK tug-of-war gauntlet

September 21st 2019, 1:51 pm
HellfireUnit wrote:
DarthAnt66 wrote:
HellfireUnit wrote:I still don't see any facts or arguments towards MFV has been hindered or it is a weaker version of KFV.

Hm, have you read my fourth post in Super Fight III?

Not yet, both of you have made too damn great and long posts which makes it a bit difficult for foreigners to read.
Have you considered copy and pasting it into Google translate set to your native language. Though I'm not sure if that would help since Google translate isn't spot on at translating.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
Level Six

KF Vader runs the TK tug-of-war gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: KF Vader runs the TK tug-of-war gauntlet

September 21st 2019, 2:00 pm
KingofBlades wrote:
HellfireUnit wrote:
DarthAnt66 wrote:
HellfireUnit wrote:I still don't see any facts or arguments towards MFV has been hindered or it is a weaker version of KFV.

Hm, have you read my fourth post in Super Fight III?

Not yet, both of you have made too damn great and long posts which makes it a bit difficult for foreigners to read.
Have you considered copy and pasting it into Google translate set to your native language. Though I'm not sure if that would help since Google translate isn't spot on at translating.

Nah, Google Translate is trash. My Eng should be more than enough for me to read and I rather read source materials in the original language they were written with. The translations always lack something.

If IELTS scores mean anything, I got 8.5 in Listening, 8.0 in Speaking and Reading but 5.5 in Writing. IDK why.


Last edited by HellfireUnit on September 21st 2019, 2:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
Level Six

KF Vader runs the TK tug-of-war gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: KF Vader runs the TK tug-of-war gauntlet

September 21st 2019, 2:01 pm
O-Siri wrote:Force barriers in the PT are all about timing and reflexes you have to put yourself in a defensive posture to successfully defend against enemy Force pushes. Ventress TK's Anakin on Kamino and later in the same fight he blocks it. In script when Kenobi tries to Force push Anakin it's explicitly stated Anakin put his hand out to defend himself:


RotS Script wrote:
OBI-WAN and ANAKIN lock sabers. OBI-WAN puts out his hand to use the Force to push ANAKIN away. ANAKIN puts out his hand to block OBI-WAN.
Both combatants are blasted backwards onto the control panels.


That's why Dooku was able to push and grip Kenobi, because the latter didn't get his hand up in time, and it's also why Maul doesn't just Force dominate Kenobi right of the bat on Florrum even when he had no interest in fighting him in the first place, he needed to wait for an opening to present itself.

Hmm, nice post mate. I should check into this stuff more closely.
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
Moderator
Moderator

KF Vader runs the TK tug-of-war gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: KF Vader runs the TK tug-of-war gauntlet

September 21st 2019, 2:30 pm
HellfireUnit wrote:
DarthAnt66 wrote:
HellfireUnit wrote:I still don't see any facts or arguments towards MFV has been hindered or it is a weaker version of KFV.

Hm, have you read my fourth post in Super Fight III?

Not yet, both of you have made too damn great and long posts which makes it a bit difficult for foreigners to read.

Let me know when you do, since it dives into MFV vs KFV extensively.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

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September 21st 2019, 5:06 pm
NotAA3 wrote:
BreakofDawn wrote:9.

Why?

Vader might have some statements but he has absolutely no feats of that magnitude or clarification of time span in reference to when he’d actually have been able to beat Sidious. Considering Vader grew exponentially when Knightfall came and was still growing in power afterwards, surviving Mustafar would have boosted him to the level he needs to be to beat Sidious, but he never reached it and, frankly, his best accolade pre-Mustafar is being in the same tier as Yoda, Mace and Sheev, which is pretty hard to gauge at the best of times. To the best of my knowledge, there’s not a single statement indicating that a pre end of ROTS Vader could beat Sidious, only that he’s comparable.

To quote Lucas: "You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor." 


AKA a post Mustafar and still growing Vader would have been stronger than Sidious, but he never reached this point. There’s no reference to when exactly down the line he could beat Sheev, only that he would be able to given more time.
dark_globe
dark_globe

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September 21st 2019, 5:26 pm
could split or beat 9 perhaps
hard stop at 10 .
The Adventurous Jedi
The Adventurous Jedi
Level Seven
Level Seven

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September 21st 2019, 6:32 pm
@BreakofDawn

Except Lucas explicitly states Anakin is "as strong as the Emperor" later retconning his older statement.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

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September 21st 2019, 6:39 pm
NotAA3 wrote:@BreakofDawn

Except Lucas explicitly states Anakin is "as strong as the Emperor" later retconning his older statement.

...Which he said when referring to Anakin prior to getting barbecued on Mustafar, again putting an unhindered Mustafar Vader who was still growing in power above KFV. The quote all but establishes that:



But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up.


Unhindered Mustafar/post-Mustafar Vader = Sidious.



From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor –




As strong as Sidious at this point. 



he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn’t what he was supposed to become. 




Couldn't grow to be more powerful than Sidious because he was injured before he could grow anymore. 
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
Level Seven
Level Seven

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September 21st 2019, 6:50 pm
That might just be the clunkiest interpretation of the most obvious quote I've ever read.
The Adventurous Jedi
The Adventurous Jedi
Level Seven
Level Seven

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September 21st 2019, 6:58 pm
@BreakofDawn

I'm exhausted so just to clarify before I respond your argument is:

-Unhindered Mustafar Vader=Sidious

-KF Vader<


Last edited by NotAA3 on September 21st 2019, 7:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
The Adventurous Jedi
The Adventurous Jedi
Level Seven
Level Seven

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September 21st 2019, 7:06 pm
HellfireUnit wrote:
NotAA3 wrote:KFV has greater mental clarity than Zonakin so he should be able to replicate all of his showings with equal or greater efficiency.

Which is speculation. Zonakin's hatred and lust for vengence was the reason he bent his sword to his will.

It's not speculation though. IH Anakin still had fears and doubts as per the text, but he managed to ignore them and keep on pounding on Dooku. In total contrast, KFV literally crushes his fears and doubts beneath his heel establishing him as having greater mental clarity than IH Anakin.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

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September 21st 2019, 10:03 pm
More or less. Sorry if it takes me ages to respond, going back to uni now and my laptop is having another seizure.
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
Level Five
Level Five

KF Vader runs the TK tug-of-war gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: KF Vader runs the TK tug-of-war gauntlet

September 22nd 2019, 7:02 am
Well we know that Yoda-fight Sidious is labeled the most powerful Sith Lord in history, which would include KF Vader. If you think KF Vader > Anakin ~ some version of Yoda, you can rationalize this by the sources suggesting Sidious grew stronger after killing Mace and Order 66.

That being said, I don't think Mustafar Vader's TK is an indicator of KF Vader's TK, at least not in scaling him below Obi Wan and therefore Dooku. That doesn't fit with Vader's clearly vastly superior power, and there's no indication anywhere that Obi Wan's TK is disproportionately powerful (and indeed this would be difficult to reconcile with lots of other evidence). So you'd have to say some combination of:

  • Mustafar Vader is hindered, at least in some abilities (very possibly not augmentation)
  • Obi Wan is more powerful by the Mustafar fight than he was on the Invisible Hand
  • Anakin sucks at TK relative to his power

I think the first explanation is the most plausible and arguably supported by some evidence, and the second is very possible though less necessary for the point. The third seems really random. Zonakin can turn Dooku's mastery of the Force into "a joke" but can't overcome Obi Wan in a TK-battle? That would be really odd.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
Level Six

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September 22nd 2019, 7:07 am
Anakin basically sucks at TK and Force related powers. He has never shown any interest in learning the ways of the Force and master them. Saber combat was his interest which is why he was near unmatched in a duel.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
Level Six

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September 22nd 2019, 7:15 am
Haven't read Ant's arguments of KFV and MFV but so far, I don't think there is a difference between KFV and MFV. Behind Kenobi's performance against Anakin, there are two main elements. Firstly, the master knows his apprentice better than anyone, even maybe more than Anakin himself. Second one is form advantage. Soresu having no weaknesses except for being unsuitable for offense is a great advantage against Anakin. Anakin strikes and overwhelms his opponents. Kenobi's defensive stance disturbs Anakin and along the way he makes more mistakes that frustrates him. At the end of the day, Obi-Wan only won due to Anakin's arrogance. Also I don't know if it means anything but Kenobi messing with Anakin's robotic hand's wires may also lower his performance.
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