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xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 7 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

on February 27th 2020, 1:05 am
@MasterCilghal No problem if we change @Bart for @DarthAnt66. Just hoping that one day or another we will have the result of this SS  SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 7 2266747095
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
Level Three
Level Three

SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 7 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

on February 27th 2020, 1:40 am
Yeah, looking back I think I’ve done several mistakes which I could have easily avoided.

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SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 7 E8ae7210
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
Moderator
Moderator

SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 7 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

on February 29th 2020, 1:48 am
@Xolthol @MasterCilghal

My verdict has been written. I've also asked @King Joker to judge as the third to wrap this up. His verdict has also been written and will be posted as long as you both agree to him.


Last edited by DarthAnt66 on February 29th 2020, 1:55 am; edited 1 time in total
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
Level Three
Level Three

SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 7 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

on February 29th 2020, 1:54 am
Of course, no problem. Thanks for both your works btw.

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SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 7 E8ae7210
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 7 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

on February 29th 2020, 3:38 am
@DarthAnt66  @King Joker No problem for me. Thank you both
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
Moderator
Moderator

SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 7 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

on March 1st 2020, 11:47 am
I approached this debate as if I had no knowledge of either character--or related characters--and just basic Star Wars knowledge. Some debates are deliberately aimed toward a higher audience, with a presumption of shared methodology, existing power structures, etc., but I didn't see any indication this debate was like that, and it's optimal to judge debates as if you're a Star Wars beginner to purge biases and best assess the groundwork of the arguments.

That being said, I thought both parties did a good job at ripping apart the opponent's arguments. Ultimately, though, Cilghal's main argument--the Dantoine Masters--failed to show Kreia could actually "ragdoll" the trio and, coupled with Xolthol's rebuttals that sometimes cast further ambiguity, I couldn't take away much from the feat. And, while Cilghal covered some of his loses here with the Visas Marr power feat, his heavy focus on Kreia's power and lack of confidence in Kreia's own lightsaber skills were unbecoming. Xolthol convincingly pointed out that Kreia's superior powers failed to defeat the Exile and that there's there's suspect basis her knowledge will overwhelm Jaina (I thought Cilghal should have emphasized Kreia's Force drain more). Moreover, Xolthol's Jaden Korr power scaling sufficiently mitigated any vast power advantage for Kreia anyway. That leaves us with the infamous "combat equals" quote. Though Xolthol was forced into an awkward and unnecessary position by saying it means Jaina is with Luke, I found the attempts to reject the quote at even meaning Jaina had great combat abilities relative to some of the top dogs of the era as reaching. Thus, my overall impression leaving the debate was that while Kreia may be more powerful, she's likely not powerful enough to win the fight.

I'll be casting my vote for Xolthol, though I thought this was a great and successful debate for both members. SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 7 1289255181
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
Level Three
Level Three

SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 7 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

on March 1st 2020, 12:07 pm
Thanks. However, there’s no need for a third judge now.

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SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 7 E8ae7210
King Joker
King Joker
Level One
Level One

SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 7 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

on March 6th 2020, 2:58 am
As someone who is generally more Canon-centric, I found that judging this debate was a great opportunity for me to explore and consider Legends characters with more of a blank slate than I would have with Canon characters. To that end, I think I came away with a fuller understanding of both Jaina Solo's and Darth Traya's combative abilities—and so I commend MasterCilghal and Xolthol for their passionate cases for the characters they represented.

After the initial posts, I came away with two basic questions: 1). Was Darth Traya more powerful than Jaina Solo (and if so, does it matter?), and 2). Is Jaina Solo more skilled in CQC than Darth Traya (and if so, does it matter?) To be blunt, I found Xolthol's refutations of the first assertion of Traya's power to be rather convincing. One of MasterCilghal's main pillars of demonstrating Traya's power, her victory over the three Jedi Masters on Dantooine, was mitigated by Xolthol's rebuttals through the insufficiently proven capabilities of the Jedi and particularities of the feat itself. MasterCilghal dropped the ball in defending the feat, especially with the abandoned Enclave-building point, and so I felt that that weakened his overall case of Traya's Force powers being beyond Jaina's capabilities.

The second point regarding Jaina's lightsaber skill was a bit more ambiguous, with both Xolthol and MasterCilghal trading successful and unsuccessful points with each other. Nonetheless, I believe Xolthol successfully proved Jaina was indeed one of the top Jedi in the Order through comparisons with Jaden Korr and Kyle Katarn, and even despite the potential implications of that (in)famous quote so intensely discussed. While Jaina's combat skill seemed quite solidified by Xolthol, I found MasterCilghal's modest arguments for Traya's lightsaber abilities to be just that—modest. By the end of the debate, Xolthol successfully defended Jaina's combat abilities and put into question Traya's chances of using the Force to gain the edge.

This all being said, I really enjoyed reading through this debate and thought both debaters did a good job defending their character. Still, though, I believe Xolthol made the stronger case. My vote goes to her.
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