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Level Five
Level Five

SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 6 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

January 4th 2020, 11:09 am
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
Level Seven
Level Seven

SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 6 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

January 12th 2020, 2:08 pm
Just to be clear in the event that I'd be allowed to judge I wouldn't given my investment in Cilghal's success and general distaste for Jaina wank. Out of respect for Xolthol I wouldn't push my bias opinion upon you, a debate like this deserves fair and objective analysis.
Level Three
Level Three

SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 6 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

January 12th 2020, 2:18 pm
DC77 (reborn) wrote:general distaste for Jaina wank.

Certainly better than Jacen>Kyp SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 6 1076326320
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
Level Seven
Level Seven

SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 6 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

January 12th 2020, 2:40 pm
Ah, how I've missed you Cilghal. We need to catch up on Discord once I return to Slorg.
Level Three
Level Three

SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 6 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

January 12th 2020, 2:45 pm
DC77 (reborn) wrote:Ah, how I've missed you Cilghal. We need to catch up on Discord once I return to Slorg.

I really hope not.
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
Level Seven
Level Seven

SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 6 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

January 12th 2020, 2:47 pm

SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 6 1648373583
Master Azronger
Master Azronger

SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 6 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

January 25th 2020, 8:20 am
@MasterCilghal @xolthol

For this judgement, I will toss all my pre-existing knowledge of the characters being debated here out of the window. I’ll only retain my understanding of the rudiments of Star Wars lore and how fighting works in general, but as for how Darth Traya and Jaina Solo fit into that framework, I’ll go in blind. It’ll be up to the debaters to convince me of the victor.

And lastly, I will be perfectly honest with my opinions and assessment of the arguments. However, if I go on a harangue, it will be focused on the argument, not the debater making it, so please don’t take the criticisms personally, and don’t quit the forum if you end up losing. View this as a learning opportunity instead. That is all I ask.

MasterCilghal’s Opener

A) accolades: Although Traya’s true strength lies in her feats, she has a good number of decent accolades, both in regards to her power and skill. In this analysis, I’m gonna bring up one of, if not the most interesting of Kreia’s accolades, taken directly from the complete Star Wars encyclopedia:   This quote can be interpreted in two different ways:
1-Traya (while in the Trayus academy) is more powerful than Nihilus and Sion, which is extremely impressive given the two sith lords’ power, and it would make sense given that it took the combined efforts of Sion and Nihilus to defeat her. Of course on neutral ground it doesn’t apply but it would mean she at least in he same tier as Nihilus under normal circumstances.
2- Traya was more powerful than the exile during their confrontation, which would also make sense when we consider that throughout the story, Kreia’s superiority over the exile is pretty clear (link), at least not until the very end.

Establishing Traya as a preeminent powerhouse in her own era isn’t a bad way to start, but Jaina Solo isn’t of her era. There’s no connectivity between the two combatants to make this relevant yet. All xolthol has to do to is point this out to undermine Cilghal’s argument.

B) knowledge: Kreia’s force knowledge, thanks to her years of both Jedi and sith training/study and the fact that she was an historian, is simply incredible.
In fact, she was noted to have studied, like every master of the era,  the Jedi archives:In addition to this, Kreia studied extensively sith lore on such notable planets as Telos, Korriban and the Trayus academy on Malachor V, all of whom planets that were specifically noted to contain enormous knowledge about the sith:
It is important to point out that all the holocrons present there contained informations on combat techniques, as noted by master Atris, who studied them specifically to combat the sith:
"All this collected knowledge, all these teachings of combat and the Force - they are mine to command."
Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
At this point, You may be asking yourself why I brought up her knowledge in the first place. The answer is simple: as I will explain later, it’s going to provide her with an advantage against Jaina.

Alright, I’m expecting a pay-off at the end, so I won’t comment on this just yet.

As you are probably aware, Darth Traya was many compelling feats in regards to her command of the force, but since this  is just an opener I’m gonna focus on  the most substantial one: that being her ability to ragdoll the three Jedi masters Vrook, Kavar and Zez-kai Ell. First of all, here is the sequence:  1)explanation
Although in the official version she only appears to blast them away, the original version ( which didn’t came out only because of the need for an early release, and therefore can be used) depicts her literally doing what I described earlier, holding all of them at once with little effort, which proves  she can indeed ragdoll them. Furthermore, the fact that she could instantly drain them afterwards  further proves she could have tossed them around at any moment, and apparently with little difficulty.

2) how powerful those jedi masters are?
What makes this feat so impressive is the fact that all of those three Jedi masters have great accolades in regards to their power in the force and share a particularly impressive feat.
First of all, Kavar is noted to possess particularly advanced force powers:
In KOTOR 1, the three Jedi are noted to be some of the most powerful in the order:Later, after Kreia drains them with the force, she notes it had to be done because she could not have let such powerful Jedi masters live:Lastly, in what is possibly their most impressive feat, they are implied to have rebuilt the Jedi enclave on Dantooine in a short amount of time, which had been destroyed by Darth Malak during the Jedi civil war. I won’t explain  my reasoning, but simply give you a link to a blog made by Nova, who i greatly thank again, where it is explained how any of the three could have done it single-handledly (link). Overall, those three Jedi are among the best of the era and possess sufficient power to move the stones of a massive Jedi enclave.
To conclude this section, the scaling is: Kreia>>>>Dantooine jedi masters
This gives you an idea of just how powerful Kreia is and how much telekinetic power she can muster up.

Again, a good way to denote her great power in her own era, but it doesn’t relate to Jaina at all. Xolthol can quite easily point out its irrelevance on this basis.

Traya’s main area of expertise, as has already been made clear is her command of the force. Having said that, she has some good accolades in regards to her lightsaber skill.
under the name of Arren Kae she was noted as a skilled warrior: Secondly, the sith of that era obtained their rank by proving themselves among the most skilled with a lightsaber, which probably included Kreia: Although Kreia does not have many feats in the game, we can infer that, as she is the final and toughest opponent in the game, that she’s pretty skilled.
Furthermore, Kreia has extensive knowledge of the lightsaber forms, which she taught to the exile (link), was known to have wielded a double bladed lightsaber as a Jedi, was a master of the rare and difficult trakata tecnique, and kinetic  combat , all of them being practices that require advanced mastery:

The same as above: no real comparison between Traya and Jaina, just a mini respect thread for the former.

First of all, the amount of knowledge Kreia possesses, in regards to force techniques far exceeds Jaina’s own. Even the most knowledgeable jedi in the NJO, Tionne Solusar, noted how much knowledge and holocrons had been lost after the galactic civil war:Furthermore, the primary reason for why Jaina trained with the mandalorians was her total lack of knowledge of the force techniques Caedus could employ against her in their upcoming confrontation. This means Kreia has access to a far greater repertoire of unorthodox force techniques, many of whom can be applied combatively. Telepathic attacks like force fear can be used to off-balance Jaina, while force drain ( against which Jaina has no defense) can be used to weaken her, in a similar way to how Krayt used the technique against Abeloth and Luke Skywalker ( link).

This is what I’ve been looking for: an actual analysis of why and how Kreia’s skillset provides her with an advantage over her adversary. And while there are ways in which xolthol could contest this, such as pointing out that Cilghal’s citations on Kreia’s Force knowledge don’t detail which Force techniques she supposedly learned or that they don’t even necessarily contain anything combatively useful (”truths of the cosmos,” “require the wisdom of a Master to truly understand”) and hence them being lost wouldn’t be relevant, or put pressure on the supposed effectiveness of Force fear or Force drain which Cilghal seems to take for granted, I still appreciate the effort. And, of course, it’s ultimately up to xolthol whether she’ll follow up on any of those ideas or present something completely different.

Kreia, while maybe not Jaina’s equal with the lightsaber, is still a capable opponent and can compensate by employing techniques such as trakata to off-balance Jaina.

This makes no sense. Why would you concede to Jaina being the superior lightsaber duelist in your opener, before your opponent has had to opportunity to say even a single word? Especially after making a whole subsection for Kreia’s dueling skills? Xolthol should be able to easily capitalize on this.

Her telekinetic feats and scaling are just...better. Jaina was clearly inferior to a massively weakened Caedus during their final duel (link) has had difficulty with the featless (at least in this area) Alema Rar and her best telekinetic feat in her prime was sending parts of a collapses wall flying in backlash and force pushing sith sabers, so nothing points to a massive power growth between LOTF and FOTJ and It’s not that great in comparison to what Traya has done (which will be explored further in subsequent posts). In fact, Jaina herself conceded inferiority to the Jedi masters on the council and even some jedi knights in invincible, opponents Kreia would ragdoll with contemptuous ease.

All the pertinent claims here are completely baseless. No proof provided for anything except for Jaina’s inferiority to Caedus - who is another figure not tied to Traya in any way and therefore irrelevant as of now. Xolthol isn't met with any real resistance here.

Overall, the odds are against Jaina’s victory and it could be argued Traya’s victory is downright easy.

Overall, while mostly a mini respect thread, this opener did attempt to tie some of that to Jaina by way of pointing out her lack of experience with esoteric Force techniques and extrapolating that Traya would be able to exploit this, thus providing her with an advantage in combat. However, conceding the lightsaber segment was unnecessary and downright baffling, and the claims around Traya’s power level in relation to Jaina were completely without basis. I would guess many would let this slide because Traya’s opponent here is Jaina, of whom I know many don’t think much, but imagine if it were someone like Anakin Skywalker instead. He doesn’t have any of that esoteric Force knowledge either, but most would still say he stomps Traya because he’s just that much stronger, and therefore probably treat all of Cilghal’s claims as egregious if applied to him, yet reasonable in the case of Jaina. But I’m looking at this from the perspective of an ignorant observer, for whom appealing to the community consensus or pre-established power hierarchies won’t work; legitimate evidence and analysis is needed. A vacuous mini respect thread and a “my character wins”-line at the end won’t cut it. This is why I’m so critical of throwing around feats and accolades for a character without meaningfully analyzing how they relate to the opponent, or making baseless, non sequitur claims like X ragdolls Y so they beat Z.

But of course, it’s xolthol’s job to refute this post, so it’s her scrutiny it has to withstand in the end. I’ll see how that pans out tomorrow, when I’ll be judging her opener.

Master Azronger
Master Azronger

SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 6 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

January 26th 2020, 5:50 am
@xolthol @MasterCilghal

xolthol’s Opener

I will here made my opening and explain why Jaina will win this fight. Because I didn't think this is the place and time to do this, I won't respond directly to what my opponent bring in his own opening. I will divided my post in two parts: first of all a brief view of how powerful Jaina is then a more concrete analysis of what give her the win here. With all of that said, lets start the fight slaughter.

Alright, but I hope Cilghal’s arguments will be addressed in the subsequent posts.

Jaina Solo, grand daughter of Darth Vader is whitout a doubt a great warrior as shown by the title that she earned, the sword of the Jedi. But she has more than just this simple title, she has also this accolade:What this quote gives us to know ? First of all, we learn that at this time, Jaina is the "combat equal" of anyone
[*]in the Jedi order. This clearly emphazise her fighting capacity, not on her diplomacy skills or even that she is the closest to the perfect jedi. This even didn't proove that she is the more powerful force user of the Order. This expression gives us way more usefull information. Indeed, as a fact we know that in a fight (which include the use of the Force, your lightsaber, your martial knowledge and your environnement ) so in an all out, she is the equal of anyone.
Obviously she cannot be at the same time the equal of younglings and the equal of masters... The quote refer to the fact that she is the equal to any top fighting Jedi masters, which include: Kyp Durron, Saba Sebatyne, Kyle Katarn. (I think that we can agree on the fact that this three jedi are the very top of the order at this time). Because of this we know that Jaina is able to fight at least[**] as an equal with someone as powerful in the force as Kyp, as resilient and physically dominant as Saba and as with as knowldge in the lightsaber as Kyle. So we can see that Jaina is a really complete fighter who can deal with any sort of ennemy that she faced.
And the most interresting part in this is the fact that Jaine had proven more than once this equality to anyone in the Order. So this isn't questionable at all.

[*]Nota bene 1:

A common way used by people to dismiss this quote is by saying that Jaina isn't the combat equal of her uncle Luke Skywalker based on this quotes: But this reasonning is clearly false based on a simple fact. During the time of FotJ Luke Skywalker wasn't in the Jedi Order. He left in exile because he think that he had failed his duty by letting his nephew Jacen Solo becoming the sith lord Darth Caedus. So he isn't in the Order anymore and the quote is still valid.[**]Nota bene 2:
I have used "at least" in order to made explain something that must be taking into account: the quote undirectly explain that Jaina is the above most of the members of the jedi order by using the rethoric figure which made her equal to the top jedi of the order. But we can also legitimately think that this rethoric figure can apply also to the top Jedi, which will make Jaina their superior and the best Jedi of the order from a combative point of view.

This is excellent because it directly addresses Jaina’s capabilities a combatant, and shows she can deal with any type of foe, from the physically dominant Saba Sebatyne to the lightsaber virtuoso Kyle Katarn or the Force titan Kyp Durron. However, xolthol doesn’t take this line of argumentation to its conclusion by connecting it to Traya. She could have used this to rebut Cilghal’s claim that Traya’s esoteric Force techniques would be useful against Jaina - to show that Jaina’s equipped to deal with virtually anything. Still, what we have is a solid foundation.

A brief scaling

Let me introduce the Community, a group of clones who are physical copy of some force users such as Kyle Katarn, Kam Solusar and Jaden Korr. Even though they are clone, they can use the Force in pretty impressive way.A- RUNNER

Runner is the clone of Kyle and even though he has a wide array of capacities, one of his most devastating was his telekinesis. I will just take a single feats in order to show you just how powerful Runner is.
This feat can be seen as not really impressive but when you look cautionly, it is really insane. First of all, Runner didn't push the speeder all the time, he just give it the first (and only) impulse. Then the speeder wasn't flying at all, he was sliding on the ground so the physical friction must had take a important part of the initial energy. Last but clearly not least the speeder hit a building and because of this the building half collapsed. And this wasn't because of some explosion: Metal shrieked and bent. Glass shattered this was only because of the sheer speed and weight of the speeder.
Basically, what he have done here prove that he can easily with a single push half-destroy a building. And he is far from working at his full power.B- SOLDIER

Another clone was called Soldier, he was the clone of Jaden Korr. And this clone is the best of all clones so he is obviously better than Runner.C-JADEN KORR

Now lets see a TK confrontation between Jaden and the two clones:Basically, you can see that even the combine might of the two clones isn't enough to defeat in a sheer TK competiton Jaden Korr. In addition to this, you need to acknowledge two things:

The sum of the power of the clone is less than the power of their sum (basically what we call constructive addition : 1 + 1 > 2). This is explain here:
The blast that Jaden resist is just way bigger than the one throw by Runner, this is a continuous TK strike and a under lots of intense emotions : Anger poured off both clones, anger born of years of frustration and mistreatment. It hit Jaden like a hailstorm.

With that in mind we have now this scaling chain:

Jaden >~ (Soldier + Runner) in rage mode > (Soldier + Runner) > 2x Runner >>>>>> Crushing a whole building.D- Jaina Solo

As shown in the previous part, Jaina is around Kyp/Kyle/Saba level of fighter. So she is clearly above someone as powerful as Jaden Korr.
If you want to argue that sheer power isn't everything in a fight, I will agree, but Jaden is far from being a shitty fighter. In fact he is exactly the opposite: he is an awesome fighter.
Indeed he faced and defeat Boba Fett (you know, the guy who fought against Vader and survive)

(At 5:43, you will see Boba Fett defeat by Jaden Korr)All of this show you just how good is Jaden as a fighter. If you add to this his insane force power and you have a monster that is still below Jaina Solo.

Tentatively, this scaling seems to match the potency of the one Cilghal outlined for Traya. Certainly there’s wiggle room for how exactly rebuilding the Jedi Enclave in a few minutes stacks up to collapsing a building, but for now, this seems fine. And more than that, the accolade provided for Jaina actually proves she can deal with this amount of power in combat, which wasn’t articulated for Traya.

Power of Traya ?

Even though, I said that I won't counter your first post, I will just adress a part of it that you didn't directly write. I'm obviously talking to the blog done by Nova about the rebuilding of the Jedi enclave on Datoine. Tbh I find this theory absolutely stupid and fan-based... I will say that it biggest mistakes lay on the fact that building an enclave isn't only a matter of power (the one to lift stones). It is mainly a matter of building skills, putting the right stone at the right place then applying the right amount of cement. Clearly it is possible for the jedi masters to have help rebuilding this place but this is absolutely illogic to think that they have been able to rebuilt it on their own and in only a matter of hours... just ridiculous.
If I take this out for Traya, she haven't any real good feat:

Slaughtering three jedi masters with some random quotes... Not really impressive and absolutely not relevant when comparing to Jaden feat.
Having some quotes for her... every characters which are at least a bit important have one or two
being defeated by a far from prime Nihilius... not a feat at all. She only survive because Nihilius didn't consider her as a threat.

Clearly she haven't anything in term of power that can allow her to compete with Jaina.

This doesn’t refute anything said in Nova’s blog. Xolthol merely exclaims it’s illogical for the Masters to have rebuilt the Enclave by themselves, but she doesn’t explain why. None of the arguments Nova proffered are actually addressed. This attempt to refute Traya’s scaling fell completely flat on its face, and so Cilghal’s argument still stands. I hope Cilghal points this out.

Regardless, it’s not a problem for xolthol as of now since she has made a case for Jaina being able to handle that amount of power in combat anyway.

A combative failure versus an accomplish fighter

But even though you can prove that Traya is more powerful than Jaina (which is clearly not the case), you will still need to explain how she can defeat Jaina while she failed to win against the jedi Exile Meetra Surik.
And all the problem of Traya is resume in her fight against Surik:
-> she is factually more powerful than Meetra-> she faced her on the Dark Side nexus of Malachor V which is known to be immensely powerful, particularly in the Trayus core:The nexus must have amp insanely Traya and weakened even more the Exile.

-> Before facing Traya she have face countless ennemies, all amp by the Dark Side of the Force.
And this sith have been specialy trained to defeat jedi:

To sum up all of this we have:

DS amp Traya >> Normal Traya > Meetra Surik >> DS Hindered Surik > Tired of countless fight DS Hindered Surik.

And even with all of this advantages, Traya loose ! She must be a real failure.
Clearly in order to defeat Jaina she will need to be way above her in term of raw force power, but to an extend that will made DE sheev looks like a youngling.

Clearly there is zero way for Jaina to loose this fight.

This is another great point to make, and it builds off xolthol’s previous ones. For all her power, Traya failed to defeat the Jedi Exile, proving that there’s a difference between being powerful and being a good fighter, which Kreia ostensibly doesn’t seem to be - in comparison to Jaina, anyway, seeing as Cilghal already conceded to her superiority to Traya as a swordswoman. Still, it would have been nice if xolthol had actively capitalized on Cilghal’s concession.

As shwon above, this will be a slaughter. Jaina have both the power and the skill to take down Traya. This latter just cannot compete with the Sword of the Jedi. I think that @mastercilghal should concede this match before loosing more

Overall, this post has the necessary ingredients for a strong case for Jaina’s victory over Traya from a standpoint of pure logic: the conclusion follows from the premises rather well - but xolthol still needs to push a little harder on certain points and take advantage of the shortcomings of Cilghal’s post to make this more definitive. The attempt to dispute the Enclave feat also didn’t work out in the slightest, so either that point has to dropped or improved upon massively. However, xolthol said in the beginning she would address the contents of his opener more directly in the following post, so I’m expecting something even better for next time.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger

SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 6 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

January 27th 2020, 12:27 pm
@MasterCilghal @Meatpants @xolthol

Meatpants/Cilghal’s Post #2

I'm stepping in for Mastercilghal after he resigned from the debate after personal reasons. Good luck to Xolthol, and let's begin.

Alright, but seeing as Cilghal did re-enter the debate, I’ll be treating your post and his following post as one. While some may question whether this is fair, as two brains are better than one, keep in mind that Meatpants and Cilghal were working independently, so Cilghal really didn’t have control over what was going into half of his post. In my mind, this balances out the advantage a second debater brings.

Jaina only has one possible avenue from whence victory can be clinched against such a superior Force wielder. Let's begin to properly examine why it's also wrong.Specifically, you allege that Luke isn't in the Order by this point, thus disqualifying the quote as false, since Jaina cannot be the combat equal of Luke Skywalker. However, the quote in full context proves otherwise:As Jaina is objectively not the combat equal of Skywalker, this quote is rendered worthless. More importantly, feats and demonstrations of fighting ability are more important than accolades that are inherently contradictory, and you've failed to provide any showings from Jaina that establishes her as a lightsaber combat or force wielder capable of defeating Traya. Your entire argument is predicated on the reliance of this singular quote, and that quote is not valid. I will therefore not address the scaling you've attempted with the clones.

The problem here is that Meatpants doesn’t tell us how Jaina’s accolade is contradicted. He just says it is and expects people to accept that, but it’s completely unsubstantiated. One might be inclined to think back to xolthol’s opener wherein she presented statements declaring Luke Skywalker more powerful than Jaina Solo, but these don’t by themselves force a contradiction as one the key points in xolthol’s opener was that power level and combative viability are distinct things. In fact, now that Meatpants (and Cilghal later on in the post) proved Luke was indeed a member of the Jedi Order as of the accolade, Jaina can be argued to be his equal in combat, even if he is more powerful. This could prove devastating for Traya.

But we’ll see how xolthol handles this.

You've labelled Traya ragdolling three Jedi Masters as "unimpressive". I beg to differ, the feat is undeniably extremely impressive. For one, demonstrate a feat of Jaina's that matches or surpasses it? All three masters are masters of Juyo, the seventh form of lightsaber combat, as all three can teach the form to the Exile in KOTOR 2. Juyo requires mastery of all six previous forms to study:Thus, all three masters have mastered up to Niman, and can at least teach Juyo, if not mastering it's use, considering none of them give into their emotions while using it. I would be remiss if I didn't note Kreia's own comments on the form:

"Perhaps one of the greatest styles, learned only by the most skilled of Force wielders. Impressive."

Additionally, all three Jedi are capable of teaching the form Force Mastery, of which Kreia comments:Thus, all three masters were among the highest in the Order. Additionally, Vrook specifically is elsewhere stated to be among the most powerful of the Order's Jedi Masters:
In order to give better depth to the relative power of Vrook, and perhaps the other masters, Bastila herself admits inferiority to what can only mean the Council members; this is despite being overconfident and drunk on the power of the Star Forge and also having her powers enhanced by her turn to the Dark Side:Kreia first simultaneously chokes the masters, before cutting them off from the Force:The three council members are among the most powerful Jedi of the era. All three have mastered the seven forms of lightsaber combat, and have mastered all the force forms, including Force Mastery, which is learnt by only the highest Jedi Masters. They also scale above DS Star Forge Bastila. Additionally, there were on a LS nexus when they died. Being able to ragdoll someone requires being exponentially more powerful, and Kreia ragdolls all three simultaneously, meaning she's exponentially stronger than the combined might of three of the most powerful Jedi of the KOTOR era. This is an impressive feat the far outstrips anything you've brought to the table regarding Jaina.

This is mostly just reiterating and slightly adding to what Cilghal presented in his opener. Xolthol has already matched this feat with scaling from collapsing a building, so Meatpants really should have elaborated on how and why this feat is supposedly better than that. He again just states it with no backing.

You've described Traya's loss to the Exile as an anti-feat, but there's no real basis for this, especially considering that Meetra Surik is also a superior combatant to Jaina, thus your point becomes moot. Although the KOTOR Campaign Guide writes "Although Traya was more powerful, the Exile managed to defeat her in combat." It's unclear whether this is based on their neutral power levels, or exclusive to Traya being amped by the core. Regardless, it's impossible to glean anything from this, as your own scaling has been disproven, and what's more, Surik is superior to Traya and has accolades and showings of skill and power far beyond that demonstrated by Jaina.

Meetra Surik being Jaina’s superior in combat is yet another claim that has no evidence of any kind buttressing it. Not that it would matter since Cilghal already conceded that Jaina is the superior swordswoman to Traya.

Traya spent her life as a Jedi studying the ancient secrets, collecting artifacts and holocrons of the past:
Korriban, a treasury trove of ancient Sith knowledge holds little secrets from her:

Additionally, Kreia read from ancient texts on Malachor, teaching Sion and even Nihilus, showing him how to harness his power ("Darth Traya indeed teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights..." KOTOR 2):And also from the hoard of Sith holocrons (stated to be dozens by the Prima Guide, so at least 24) Atris had collected, which are confirmed as containing power and combat techniques:It's easy to argue that Kreia's knowledge of both Jedi and Sith arts exponentially surpass Jaina. Kreia knows more techniques in the Force as well. Noticeably, Traya can conceal herself without giving off her dark side alignment (she does this throughout the course of the game non-stop until around the end), something Zannah required sorcery for, and found it extremely difficult to keep up.

This is again basically making the same point Cilghal made in his opener.

Traya doesn't posses one singular feat (despite it being massively impressive), but has several. Take for example when she one-shots more than a dozen elite Sith assassins on Malachor V:

The developer script description:

{Gameplay Programmer: In the next scene, cut to a shot of Kreia from behind, with Dark Side assassins materializing behind her, whispering - there should be almost up to 20, enough to make the audience go, "oh crap."}

{Gameplay Programmer: Cut to a camera of Kreia's face, smiling. She does not turn around as the assassins advance.}

{Gameplay Programmer: Cut to black, play Kreia's stinger - I want this to be a "flash of black" like a quick cut in a movie.}

{Gameplay Programmer: Cut to a scene of Kreia still walking along the same path, but ALL the assassins are lying dead on the ground.}

We can therefore reasonably glean that Traya achieved this feat without effort.

This is another impressive feat for Traya, admittedly, but Meatpants doesn’t explain how it ties to Jaina.

What's more, Traya's saber skills are impressive. She was the most skilled lightsaber duelist of the Sith after the death of Darth Malak:She also used a double-bladed lightsaber as a Jedi, is familiar with all the forms of lightsaber combat (with mastery in at least the first three), and utilises the unique lightsaber form/technique Tràkata. One technique Traya can match Jaina in, is the use of shatterpoint. Traya can perceive shatterpoints on a planetary level:
Assuming that Kreia is also Arren Kae, she was the match of the greatest Echani warrior, Yusanis:This would give Traya the knowledge of all Echani rituals, techniques and abilities, such as being able to predict battles minutes in advance without the use of the Force:
Even in unarmed combat, Traya has an extreme advantage over Jaina.

Cilghal already conceded Traya is inferior to Jaina as a duelist so I’m not sure as to what the relevance of hyping the former’s skills is. As far as her purported superiority in unarmed combat goes, it’s once again unsubstantiated.

This fight is a mismatch. Jaina has not been demonstrated as being a match in any category to Traya, be it force knowledge, lightsaber skill, unarmed skill, experience etc. And I don't see any reason with how this battle plays out: Traya simply cuts Jaina from the Force and she dies instantly. Even if the battle devolves into a lightsaber duel, there's no evidence playing Jaina above Traya in dueling ability, and Traya is more capable of using Force techniques mid-combat. The outcome is simple.

Traya being able to simply sever Jaina’s Force connection is a novel concept for this debate, but again it needs proving. She severed those three Masters, but could she do the same to Jaina? Of course, it’s up to xolthol ultimately to point out that all these claims are baseless.


Thank you, I hadn’t noticed it.
Jokes aside, this statement, even in and of itself doesn’t tell us anything and i’ll give you a very simple explanation for why it it simply an hyperbole and cannot be taken literally. “The equal of anyone” refers to all members of the Jedi order, but there is no way Jaina could be the equal of, for example, Kyle Katarn and a padawan at the same time, considering that the two are on completely different levels in skill, it would be an illogical idea. Rather it is a vague way to tell the readers that Jaina is skilled, that’s all. Not sure how you can come to this conclusion. It could very well refer to a yougling if we are to take it at face value. Coming to this conclusion requires too much assumption; Katarn, Saba and Kyp aren’t even mentioned. I would agree with you if the quote were something like“among the best in the order”, but this is far too speculative.
if this argument doesn’t convince you, I can assure you the next one will be more than sufficient.

Well, that’s at least one way to dispute the accolade. Let’s see how xolthol deals with the hyperbole defense.

This is objectively wrong. Luke had just resumed his position as the GM in the previous book, ascension. Here is a statement from the essential reader’s companion’s description of the book’s plot that specifically says Luke resumes his title as GM after his return and Coruscant ( which he could do given that Chief Daala had recently been removed from office): As you correctly pointed out, Jaina’s power pales in comparison to Luke’s and is therefore stupid  to conclude the quote applies to him, which it would if you were to take it seriously.
Exactly, You’re proving my own point. ( and contradicting yourself) ,that statement is just a figure of speech, however, as I already proved it’s both far too vague and can simply be dismissed with the Luke skywalker argument I presented.
Honestly, I’m surprised you brought it up considering that it has been debunked so many times in the past.

See what I told Meatpants about why this is not a good rebuttal, but it’s xolthol’s job to refute.

I don’t get how being a clone is a problem to one’s force connection. Could you please explain this a bit more in depth?

I don’t get the relevance of this question.

Very good feat indeed. However, it doesn’t prove he can destroy a building of even half of it. It was the speeder itself which caused the damage by impacting on the building, not Soldier’s own power.

Soldier was the one who pushed the speeder, so the energy to collapse the building came from and is attributable to his power in the Force. But we’ll see how familiar xolthol is with physics to refute this.

What I don’t understand is why you didn’t mention the hospital feat, which to me seems far more impressive.

This is another instance of Cilghal giving ammunition to his opponent for seemingly no reason. It makes no sense to tell the opponent of an apparently even more impressive feat they could have used to reinforce their scaling. Xolthol need only to capitalize on this.

Jaden did indeed menage to TK stalemate the two clones, however i find it a stretch to argue he was equal, let alone superior to the two clones. In fact, initially, he struggles against Soldier alone:Later, in the passage you presented, it Jaden makes it clear that, sooner or later, he  would have been overwhelmed by the combined power of the two clones, not to mention the incredible amount of effort required to him in order to hold them off: Overall, You cannot possibly argue Jaden is superior to the two clones combined. All evidence points to him being unable to hold them off forever. The best he can possibly achieve ( and that  has  been shown achieving ) against them is a stalemate. I really don’t understand why you came to this conclusion. Other than that I agree with everything that was presented, Jaden is a truly impressive jedi.

Minor nitpicks that don’t really damage the scaling in an overall sense.

I acknowledge the Boba fett feat is extremely impressive for Jaden, that I won’t deny. However, I found a lot of issues with the fights you provided, which to me point to a lack of a deep research on your part. the first of the two fights, which comes from Star Wars tales #11, was never canon even before Disney came in, and we can therefore dismiss it completely.  In the latter example, there are a great deal of circumstances:Vader was looking for a chest which he desperately needed and that Boba was carrying, meaning he wasn’t going all out against him from the start (and that’s basically why Boba lasts so long) . It’s downright stated by Vader himself. Furthermore Vader was fairly overconfident, which further added to the apparent “difficulty” (he still beat him pretty easily every time he menato close the distance)  he was experiencing when facing the renowned bounty hunter. His vast superiority over Fett is unquestionable.
This fight also takes place around 3 BBY. Don’t forget that Vader still had to go through a massive growth in regards to his combat skill, in fact he is described as a far more capable opponent in ESB than he was in ANH ( which is later than the events in the comic, I might add)and don’t forget that around this time period he was struggling against not-particularly-impressive jedi like An’ya Kuro.
Here is the statement I was talking about: Ultimately, Jaden’s feat is certainly impressive,but using Vader as an example doesn’t prove anything, since his enormous superiority over Boba while vastly before his prime is pretty much undeniable. Plus there’s the fact that Boba was far older when he faced Jaden.

At least until potentially refuted by xolthol, this seems like a solid debunk of Boba Fett’s fights with Vader. Good job.

This leads me into my next point: is Jaden truly a great fighter, as you are suggesting?
Unfortunately the all indications are to the contrary or at least not quite as great as you are suggesting.  Jaden’s performance when engaged in a lightsaber duel, at least in his prime, isn’t all that impressive. First, in crosscurrent, he only menages to achieve a stalemate against and injured jedi master Relin, a random Jedi from the old republic:Yes, I am aware that Jaden “could not quite place the man’s fighting style”, but it is equally true this lack of knowledge would have gone either ways, especially considering that the NJO developed new fighting styles completely unknown to the old jedi. this jedi has no particular accolades of feats that point to an unusually high level of skill.
Overall, Jaden is far too inconsistent to truly declare him a great fighter, you’ll have to come up with more than an isolated instance. But that’s not so relevant to this debate. Let’s get to the next point.

Why would the Jedi Master not having accolades of any particular note mean he is weak? This is a textbook appeal to ignorance fallacy. The Jedi’s combat prowess is simply unknown, so Jaden can hardly be downscaled with this. Cilghal already admitted Jaden’s fight with Boba Fett is very impressive for him, so if xolthol can recognize the aforementioned fallacy (and point out how Cilghal erred in his understanding of physics earlier), this scaling, at least up to Jaden, seems secure.

You have proved it through a wrong interpretation of a quote that was not intended to be taken the way you did and that i already debunked in its entirety. In fact, My reaction after reading this was like: “ ok interesting, but  what does Jaina have to do with all this?”. Simply put, You haven’t proven she is on par with Saba or Kyle in any way, and as such this scaling falls apart completely.
But let’s, for a moment, pretend she is on that level. You still haven’t provided any valid proof
that Saba and Kyle (let’s exclude Kyp for obvious reasons) are Jaden’s superiors. I imagine this assumption is based on the fact that the two are masters while Jaden is only a Knight ( because Jaden actually has some feats that exceed both, like the aforementioned Boba Fett fight) . In case this comes up as an argument, I’ll give a simple counter to it:  
1-being in a different rank doesn’t necessarily speak to one’s superiority to those ranked beneath said jedi, this applies specifically in the NJO, as seen in monologue from Jacen: -source: TUF

2- Jaden was actually offered the rank of master but he refused due to personal reasons.

Well, xolthol’s interpretation of the quote denotes Jaina as the combat equal of the best fighter(s) in the Order, so whether they’re Kyle, Saba and/or Kyp or someone else doesn’t really make a difference.

Overall, you have provided nothing that scales Jaina above Jaden in any meaningful way, except a weird quote that I’ve already debunked.  

1- in stark contrast to what you provided, Traya is a great fighter and an extremely powerful force user based on her scaling from the three masters on Dantooine ( which MP has already addressed and that I will address further in my response to your next post)
2- Jaina’s only major accolade is nothing more than a wired way to say that she’s skilled in her own right, but does not apply in the way you say.
3- Jaina doesn’t get any scaling from Jaden Korr.
4- all my previous arguments about Jaina’s embarrassing showings and her inability to stand against Traya’s drain still stand.

Good luck @Xolthol with your response.

All in all, this post was plagued with the same problems that Cilghal’s opener was: too many baseless claims and none of Kreia’s stuff was tied to Jaina. It also gave further potential ammunition for xolthol and contained at least one logical fallacy. Still, it did successfully (as of now) dispute xolthol’s principal argument centered around the statement of Jaina’s combat equality to anyone among the Jedi. Looking forward to how xolthol responds.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger

SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 6 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

January 28th 2020, 12:03 pm
@xolthol @MasterCilghal

xolthol’s Post #2

Since the start of this debate, Traya killing the three Dantooine jedi masters is the only real feat that you have provide for her. Lets explain why this feat isn't as relevant as you want us to believe....

Meatpants did bring up Traya one-shotting several Sith assassins too. While he failed to connect it to Jaina, the feat should still be addressed.

What have you bring on the table for the Jedi Masters ?

1°- LIGHTSABER SKILLSThis isn't really significatif to know that they have mastered lightsaber technics when in an only Force battle. And knowing that Traya killed them only via the use of the Force, I failled to see in which way this is relevant.

2°- FORCE KNOWLEDGESo they know how to teach an impressive Force technique. So they have a good knowledge. I beg your pardon but isn't knowledge something different from force power ? Yes the knowledge of something is like a tool. If you have more tools, you are more likely to solve any type of problem. But to draw a comparison, having a spoon won't help you to cut your bread... The fact that they have knowledge isn't at all the proof that they are powerfull.

3°- Force powerYes, really impressive quote indeed... But I think that you have missed a really important point here. When you quote Bastila saying:
This take place before Malak launch an assault on Dantoine, killing and capturing lots of Jedi:So you just have a quote explaining that before Malak attack, there was powerful jedi masters. You have no proofs:

that after the attack this "most powerful jedi masters" are still alive
that this jedi who are dead are include in Bastila claim
that the three jedi masters are part of "the most powerful jedi masters"

The scaling chain that you've tried to create just failed here...
The confrontation between Darth Traya and the three jedi Masters is something that you didn't explain.

Lets see what happend in this fight to have a better understand of the context.

The 3 jedi masters start to try to sever the Exile from the force once again.
Traya attack them, pushing them against a wall (they are taken by surprise)
Two remains on the floor and only Vrook stand up before being pinned to the wall once again
Then Traya lecture the three jedi. During the speech she explains that this three jedi masters are afraid: "But I see what happened now. It is because you were afraid".
Eventually they attack Darth Traya with their lightsaber and are killed by her Force Drain.

So we have many factors that can explain why they loose so easily to Darth Traya: being tired because of the try to sever from the Force an unwilling Exile, being blast powerfully against a wall, being afraid of the exile (so having more difficulty to draw on the force), attacking with their lightsaber Traya who use only the force here.
This last point is indeed a mistake because the Masters knows powerful techniques but not whithout drawbacks:In addition, the whole speech of the lady of the Sith is clearly a sort of Dun Moch. Indeed, she just taunt the three jedi masters by saying that they deliberately didn't act as they should have done. She talk at each one precisely, showing a deep knowledge of their life. And the technique is pretty effective when you see that neither of the three jedi attack her even though they have ignite their lightsabers.

As everyone can see, with all the context the feat seems way less impressive.

Just before closing this part, I will to reat to one of your claim:I think that is mainly based on the quote from Bastila Shan explaining that: "There is great strength within this place." Obviously this is a misconception. Here the great strenght isn't some sort of LS nexus but the jedi academy of Dantooine with its pretty huge defensive system. You didn't give any other proof for your theory of the LS nexus, so clearly none have any reason to trust you this theory.
To sum up the part, we have that Traya killed with the Force three Jedi Masters who are pretty skilled in lightsaber and with some knowledge of the Force with lots of advantages on her side. Clearly this feat isn't impressive at all and I fail to see how this is supposed to be a proof that Traya is above Jaina in term of Force power.

I guess this serves to mitigate the feat somewhat. Although xolthol already did that with the attempt to debunk the Masters reconstructing the Jedi Enclave, which, now that I notice, neither Meatpants nor Cilghal touched on in the slightest. It seems xolthol’s debunk of the feat still stands.

In this part, I will explain why all the knowledge that Traya have won't be a game-changer against Jaina.

~Force Knowledge of Traya~Indeed, knowing that Darth Traya have is a really scolar characters (she was an historian of the Jedi, search for sith knowledge in Telos, Korriban and so on), it is pretty obvious that she is the most knowledgeable of the two fighters.
Nonetheless, the real question here is : how much can this knowledge be use in a fight ? Because lots of the knowledge that both sith and jedi gathered are non-combat-applicable. For example all the rituals from the sith cannot be use in the core of a fight.
This is further emphatize by the fact that in much of his fight, despite his insane knowledge (that we can both agree is greater than Traya's one) Sidious mainly rely on TK, TP, FL, lightsaber strikes. If someone like Sheev Palpatine with such knowledge didn't use other technics (even against difficult ennemy such as Luke in DE) it is more than plausible that it is because most of this knowledge isn't combat-applicable.

So clearly if you cannot provide me some precise Force power that Traya known and that can help her defeat the Sword of the Jedi, your point is just moot and useless here.
~Lightsaber skills~

You claim that Traya have a great skill in lightsaber, base on this quotes:
The first one is something pretty vague that lots of jedi and sith who aren't insanely good duelist have, so clearly this isn't something specialy interresting.
The second one isn't better for Traya. Indeed, we have two problems here.
First of all the theory supported by the quote is clearly dismissed by the fact that Traya was ejected out of the Triumvirat not because of a lightsaber fight that she lost but because she was ragdoll by the combine might of Nilhius and Sion. By following this logic, there is no reason for her not to defeat some other sith better than her in sheer skill but with less force power.
Secondly even if I agree on the fact that she is the best lightsaber fighter of the sith, this only include the sith that survive after the civil war. We have no idea of the skills level of this particular era. This is absolutely not relevant for this fight. Well, this is just an insane stupidity...
Lets reasoning by the absurd and assuming that she can predict fight minutes before things happend. Logically when she have faced the Exile she could have predict what happend before the end of the fight (her defeat). And knowing that she is more powerful than the Exile she should have just find the good way to win the fight. But factually she loose.
So clearly she cannot predict fight minutes before.
~Unable to use all of this knowledge~

On the top of all of what I've explain just above, there is still a huge problem for Traya.
Two things here, you never prooved that Meetra was more powerful than Jaina (and honestly, knowing that she is weaker than Traya I have more than insane doubt that she is) and mostly, you missed my point. Here it is:despite all of her knowledge, despite her so called mastery of the lightsaber, despite her "great" knowledge of the unarmed fight she lost agaisnt an opponent weaker than her!
This is the perfect proof that she isn't at all a great fighter and that maybe she have all of this knowledge but this is useless in a fight.

Yes it is unclear but it would have been more logic to write: " Although Traya was more powerful thanks to the DS nexus, the Exile managed to defeat her in combat." But even though this didn't take into account the countless ennemies that the Exile have killed on this nexus in order to face Traya. In addition to her being less powerful she was also tired by all of this fight. And despite all of this she win... Traya is insanely bad as a fighter.

Fair points, all around. The burden is on Cilghal to prove Traya’s knowledge would be of any use against Jaina, he has already conceded Traya is Jaina’s inferior as a lightsaber duelist and xolthol is rubbing more salt to the wound, she also for now has debunked Meatpants’s argument about Traya’s unarmed mastery, and she correctly pointed out how Meatpants failed to corroborate his claim that Meetra Surik is Jaina’s superior and how he missed her point regarding Traya losing to someone less powerful.

~The combat equal of anyone...~

First, here, I must concede here that yes, I have made a mistake here by thinking that Luke was still in exile when the quote happend.
Nonetheless this quote still exist.

And we can further reinforce this quote by other which will add more value to this quote and prove that she is the top dog of the jedi order:Lets analyse this quotes.


The first two quotes shown that Jaina is the best jedi knight of this era. Indeed, while the first quote from one of her sparing partner describe her as better than any jedi knight in combat, the second one explicitely put her as one of the best recently trained jedi knight. This directly include Jaden Korr, Leia Solo, Ben Skywalker and so on.


The third quote state that Jaina is an insanely good pilot only bested by Luke himself. Now the question that you can ask is : "how your level as a pilot is relevant in a fight ?".
The difference between a good and a bad pilot is mostly based on two things: your reflexes and your anticipation. And this both things are also extremly present during a classical fight. With this link between piloting and fighting lets consider a force user. If this force user is more powerful than another he must have better reflexe and better anticipation. By following this logic, we have that Jaina Solo is the second best fighter of the order just after Luke.

Now, the point is: have we some other proofs that support this logic ? The answer is yes:

Anakin Skywalker was an insanely good pilot and was also the most gifted force user ever.
Luke Skywalker is the best pilot of this era and also the most powerful jedi.

This logic have been prooven right so we can apply it.


The last three quotes refer directly to the parity between Jaina and Jacen aka Caedus. Thanks to this quotes, we know that :

Caedus is too powerful to be taken down by anyone else than Luke himself.
Jaina have the same potential than him but less training (this is before her Fett training)
Jaina is his equal as a fighter

In addition, we have also this quote from Jaina herself:This clearly illustrate the fact that Jaina isn't as powerful as Caedus in force strength. Nonetheless, even with all of this said, that was her who have been choosen by the council to hunt down Darth Caedus.
Knowing that the Jedi Council won't send Jaina to her death, the most logical deduction is that Jaina have been choosen to kill Jacen because she is the one with the more chance not to fail (obviously we exclude Luke becaus this latter fear to fall to the DS).
Obviously, one of the reason explaining this choice is the fact that she is her twin sister so should have a good knowledge of her brother. However, she also stated that she have no idea of: what Lumyia teached him and what he learned during his five years journey.
In addition, it is pretty obvious that the knowledge that she have on her brother is match by the knowledge that Jacen have of her...
Taking all of this into account, we now can see that the fact that she is her twin
isn't such a major advantage if she isn't at the very least in the same league of the other top dog of the order such as Kyp, Kyle and Saba. And all of this happened more than two years before her own prime (in FotJ).


As I have shown in this part, Jaina have more than enough things for her to be stated as one of the top dog of the NJO. The "combat equal" quote strengthen this theory and clearly put Jaina as the second of none into the Jedi order bar GM Luke.

This was a missed opportunity as I pointed out that Meatpants never successfully proved a contradiction and his and Cilghal’s arguments unwittingly helped lay the foundation for potentially arguing Jaina = Luke in combat. Instead of picking up on that, xolthol openly admits Jaina is Luke’s inferior as a fighter. She does provide other quotes to support her thesis of Jaina being among the tippity top of the New Jedi Order, but as far as the combat equal accolade goes, she didn’t even address Cilghal and Meatpants’ arguments, leading me to believe it’s a tacit concession on her part. As for the other quotes, I’m interested in seeing how Cilghal will deal with those.

~Jaden Korr scaling~

Here, I will respond to the different claimed made by my opponent in his last counter.


With the previous part that I have made, it is clear that Jaina is above Jaden Korr and even by a pretty good margin. Indeed, nonetheless the fact that Jaden have been proposed Jedi master he is still a knight so he is include into both previous quotes about Jaina being above all other jedi knights and wasn't choose to hunt down Caedus.
The only thing that can be said is the fact that the feat that I use for Korr happened after LotF. Indeed, this is true but we didn't have any proof of an insane growth in power from Jaden between the end of LotF and Riptide/Crosscurrent. So there is just no reason to think that he had experienced more than a classical growth in the force, something that Jaina or other jedi knight will also have. So if Jaina was better before, she will stay above him after.

Here I just precise the fact that they aren't natural people but despite this they can use the force (nothing worth mentionning tbh, I could have skip the fact that they are clone).Indeed, when you are doing a first approach, the hospital feat seems bigger, but when you do a good analysis the speeder feat is far above the hospital one. Lets explain why (and in the same time, why this is the proof that he can destroy a building).
In order to do this, I will use some basic physical analysis.

Physical approach:For those who didn't like this sort of argumentation, I will use an easier way to explain my point. So we have that Runner can destroy half a building only thanks his TK.
Indeed, Jaden initially struggle against one of the two clones, but the fact that he was able to resist the combine might of the two is a clear proof that before he wasn't using his full power. A simple comparison can be made in sport, sometimes it seems impossible for you to continue but if you didn't give up and keep going, you will discover that you can go further. It seems pretty obvious that is what happend to Korr here.Here, your are quotting a extract that wasn't the end of the fight. I have provide you the full fight in my opener, showing that he successfully resist against the clone and stalemate them again and again until the clone of Lumyia intervene and allow the clones to win this fight.
Nonetheless, I agree on the fact that this is a stalemate more than a victory for Jaden.
But my scaling for Jaden Korr still stand:
Jaden Korr ~ (Soldier + Runner) in rage mode > Soldier + Runner > 2xRunner >>>>destroying a building


I didn't feel any need to adress what you say about the Vader fight, because I mostly agree on this. Nonetheless, being able to stalemate someone like Vader is still interresting.
In addition to this we have also the fight of Boba against the StarKiller clone and his fight against Rahm Kota.
Both of them show how impressive is Boba as a fighter and that defeating him require way more than just force power: it require skills.Yes, Boba was far older than the version of him that challenged Vader, but just remember that an even older version of Boba with the help of Tahiri Veil (not what we can define as an insanely powerful jedi) was able to destroy one of Abeloth avatar, something really impressive even taken into account the context. Being able to defeat Boba Fett, being able to fight the Community is to my point the proof of him being a good fighter.
The fight with master Relin that you put on the table as a low showing is clearly a huge logical error.
We have no information about master Relin (except the fact that he is a jedi master). What you deduce is that Master Relin is a poor fighter so Jaden isn't consistent as a fighter.
I prefer a more logical approach and knowing that Jaden is a good fighter, understand that master Relin, in addition to his fighting style advantage (that he should have because of the fact that he certainly know more figthing style than Korr), must be a good fighter.


The Jaden Korr scaling chain still stand perfectly and is far above anything that Traya have demonstrated.

This seems to salvage the building scaling. I don’t see any overt flaws with the argumentation here. Xolthol successfully appealed to the laws of physics to refute Cilghal’s claim that the speeder collapsing the building can’t be attributed to Runner’s power, which it can.

~Clear superiority over Kyle Katarn~


This whole tangent doesn’t seem to have any connection to Traya, even if it proves Jaina’s superiority to Kyle Katarn.

Jaina Solo contrary to what my opponent claim have already faced an opponent who have far more knowledge than her. Indeed, Caedus have learned powers far beyond her knowledge :This included training from Aing-Tii with their famous flow-walking, something that is above the classic Force anticipation.

Despite this and the fact that Jacen is more powerful than her in the force, she succeed to defeat him (granted some advantages). This just show how skilled as a fighter she is.

This mainly seems to be more evidence for the idea that having more Force knowledge doesn’t always guarantee an advantage in a fight.

In addition to this, she also have an intense training with the famous Bounty Hunter Boba Fett that specifically trained her in order to have some advantages over ennemies who are more powerful or have more knowledge:

This is good, since it shows Jaina is geared towards exploiting Traya’s lesser combat skills.

If you add to this the fact that Jaina is clearly above Traya in term of force power I failed to see in what scenario this won't be a clear stomp...

~Conclusion (the real one)~

You have failed to proove that the Dantoine feat is an impressive one
You have failed to proove that Traya is a good fighter
You have failed to proove that Traya has some useful knowledge for a fight
You didn't adress the fact that Traya loose to a weaker and tired opponent
I have prooved that Jaina is one of the top dog of the jedi order
I have prooved that Jaina is far above Kyle Katarn
I have prooved that the Jaden Korr scaling still stand (and is better than any feat that you have given to me)

Overall, this post had its ups and downs: most of Cilghal and Meatpants’s arguments were dealt with sufficiently, but others were completely ignored and tacitly conceded. Also, while Jaina at the moment seems like the more skilled combatant by far, the claim she’s more powerful than Traya doesn’t have much backing; Jaina’s building scaling has in no way been connected to Traya. I am hoping this will be resolved in the next post.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger

SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 6 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

January 30th 2020, 1:27 pm
@MasterCilghal @xolthol

MasterCilghal's Post #3

The quote may exist, but I’ve already debunked it (and you’ve provided no rebuttal) so i guess my points about it being a simple hyperbole or, more generally, figure of speech still stand. The best use you can have for this quote is that of a very generic accolade, that even admittedly unimpressive characters like Cilghal have.

Indeed, as I pointed out, unless xolthol makes a counter on her next post, it’s a tacit concession.

First of all, the former quote is from Zekk’s  point of view, which makes it questionable to begin with, and he only says i “doubt”, not something like “I am certain”. Furthermore, Zekk has likely rarely met and sparred with Korr, as the latter is a field agent, often alone on various missions, which can be seen from his appearances in the FOTJ novels:

As for the latter, it is again far too vague to place Jaina in any given position among the Jedi Knights. For instance, we can both call Jaden and Leia some of the best among the Jedi knights, but Jaden has significantly better showings. I disagree with your comparison. Being a good pilot also involves other elements, such as control over the ship or the ability to execute certain maneuvers. Being a better pilot doesn’t just involve being a better force user. For instance, let’s consider Jacen and Mara. Mara admits on 2 occasions Jacen is above her in power by a significant degree:Despite this, they are described as evenly matched from Jacen’s own (and let’s admit it arrogant) point of view, when Mara attacks him : Or what about Saesee Tiin? His skills as a pilot are noted to be “unrivaled” (so no one comes even close) : If we were to apply your logic to those two examples we would have Mara as an equal Jacen and Tiin should have force augmentation significantly above anyone in the PT (including Yoda, whom as we know from TCW is capable of piloting a starfighter). However, the lore refutes this completely as we know that Mara is Jacen’s inferior in the force and as a combatant while Tiin was almost literally blitzed by Palpatine, an opponent on Yoda’s level. ultimately, it’s clear your logic is fallacious in its foundation as it is contradicted by various examples in the lore.
The first 2 quotes all refer to Jaina’s potential in the force, not her actual level of skill/power. Even after her training under the mandalorian she admitted her solid  inferiority to him (you’ve already presented that quote later in the post), which is made all the more evident from the duel between the two. As for the first quote, I think you are taking it out of context: Luke says he is the only one who is sure of being capable of taking Caedus, not the only one who can take him, which makes perfect sense when you consider that Luke can simply pin him to his chair with the force without any effort. By contrast, there is a possibility, albeit not likely, that other jedi could take him down, the most evident one being Saba, whom Caedus notes can defeat her only with difficulty. But the main point is: Jaina is not chosen because of her power, in fact she straight-up admits she’s not the equal of the masters and that she can take him down because of specific advantages she has that anyone else doesn’t, namely the fact that she is his sister:
It especially important to point out that when she offered herself as a candidate to take down her brother the masters were initially hesitant, and labeled her as a mere jedi Knight, but were later convinced by Jaina’s speech about the aforementioned advantages she had over her brother, and Han Solo bringing up the “sword of the Jedi” thing(Link to the full sequence                        ).

So no, no statement puts Jaina as the second most powerful jedi after Luke nor as anywhere near the equal of Caedus in terms of skill or actualized power.
This whole argument falls due to my prievius points. Let’s summarize them:

-Jaina is not sent because she’s more powerful than any other jedi barring Luke, but simply for her status as Jacen’s sister and her mandalorian training.

-As I already explained, Korr was often away in specific missions as a field agent.

-Luke implies other jedi can defeat Caedus but he is the only one who can be sure of doing that.

Furthermore, in the quote I presented earlier Jaina concedes she is inferior to the masters and some Jedi Knights, a sentiment no one present came out and disproved but that Jaina acknowledged as fact after Corran labeled her as a Jedi Knight, Jaina might have been referring to Korr as well, considering that he is one of the most impressive knights of the era:

As far as I see, Cilghal has refuted all of xolthol’s quotes regarding Jaina’s MVP status as of now. This also invalidates Jaina’s scaling over Jaden Korr. Let’s see how xolthol will recover.

As for the rest of the Korr part, I agree with everything you have presented, as my opinion of his feats has changed since I released my last post. However, it is irrelevant to this debate as there is no indication Jaina is better than him in any way (in fact all indications are to the contrary).

Technically this is a concession on the scaling, but since Jaina is exempt from it, it doesn’t matter for now. If, however, xolthol manages to elevate Jaina above Korr again, it could be potentially dangerous for Cilghal.

My point was that Boba cannot stalemate Vader…the fight between him and Boba (because only one is canon) were circumstantial and showed Vader’s unquestionable and rather significant superiority to Fett.
I agree with you here, Boba is highly impressive.
That fight was so ridiculously circumstantial you can hardly consider it impressive. Abeloth was significantly weaker than usual, as she was in a host body that could no longer contain her power and she wanted Tahiri Veila’s body, which Tahiri later notes was the only reason for why she and Fett were still alive:
It’s also interesting to point out that Veila believed Abeloth could have killed her (and obviously Fett as well) outright and only chose not to do so because she needed her body. Although this is just Veila’s interpretation, it makes perfect sense considering she has sensed Abeloth’s power earlier. So yeah, this feat has way too many circumstances against Abeloth and cannot be used as proof of his combat skill. After all, how is Boba beating a being whom (in that very state) had feats with the force that Tahiri noted Luke couldn’t replicate? Considering that Relin Was active during the old republic, around 5000 bby, and era of featless jedi duelists I severely question him being a good fighter...but in general I agree that Korr is a very skilled jedi.

However, as I already explained, there is no proof that Jaina is above Korr in terms of overall combat effectiveness, and as such this part of the debate is irrelevant to our point. We can move on now.

Yes, this part is kind of irrelevant now, and even if the scaling were still valid, these would only be minor nitpicks that wouldn’t affect it in an overall sense.

Before addressing your analysis of the fights, I wanted to point out that Jaina has already conceded inferiority to the Jedi council (see the quote and argument above) and as such this analysis starts with a weak foundation, as it is not corroborated by the accolades presented to us. Having said that, let’s begin.
proof that he was begining to act against her but wasn't fast enough to counter the first strike.While I agree with the latter part of your analysis ( although Caedus was distracted at the time given he was discussing about the moffs having betrayed him, while he was far more prepared against Katarn) there is a fundamental problem in the former part: the fact that he blocked Katarn’s attack easily was not because the attack was easy to counter in itself , but rather because he knew that lightsaber move so well he could have performed it at any moment with ease. The emphasis is on the lightsaber move, not Katarn’s attack.
As I will explain in more detail later, the presence of the other jedi was irrelevant, as they were little more than fodder to him. This doesn’t show he wasn’t having difficulty. The first passage merely shows Caedus avoiding Katarn’s attack (which I wouldn’t call not caring) while the second depicts him simply blocking Katarn’s lightsaber. Sure, Caedus was having the upper hand in the duel, but it’s not like Caedus was absolutely dominating. This is made clear in the text immediately after the passages you presented:
Considering the fight is described as “even” I would hardly say Caedus was having no difficulty.

Furthermore, both the complete Star Wars encyclopedia and the novel itself do make clear that Caedus was taxed by the duel: It’s made clear in the text that Caedus was starting to lose his concentration and most of his strength, and this was right after he was able to remove Katarn from the fight. Before you bring up the injuries he suffered against Luke, please note that, as I will expand upon very soon, the relevance of those injuries was relatively minor. At the end of the day, In stark contrast to what you are asserting, I believe Katarn was able to put up a fairly good fight against Caedus.This will also be addressed in depth later(when I’ll discuss the circumstances) , but for I can only say that I hunk you’re severely downplaying the importance of Caedus’s injuries in the duel with Jaina. Furthermore, Jaina was not her brother’s equal despite his injuries and overall mental state at the time: As you can see, she has to put all of her effort against a distracted Caedus who menages to consistently blast her despite his injuries, to the point where he might be able to kill her. Considering Caedus ended the fight with Katarn through a clever trick (ramming him with a speeder while pretending to employ a direct telekinetic attack) rather than outfighting him the duration of the fight seems hardly a good comparison. In fact, I’d say that Caedus being choosing to end the fight that way reflects well on Katarn, as it proves he’s outside of the so-called “ragdoll” range. By contrast, as I’ve already proved, he could consistently blast away Jaina with little difficulty. Caedus specifically notes that those jedi “either individually or collectively, were no match” for him and acknowledges Katarn as the only credible threat, which is corroborated by the description of the duel, which depicts Caedus absolutely dominating the other jedi and Katarn having to break off the attack to assist them: Essentially, the whole fight was Caedus vs Katarn, as the other jedi present  were the living definition of non-factors. The fact that they coordinated didn’t make them any more of a challenge to him.
While I agree the injuries were a factor in the fight, it’s not nearly as important as you make it to be because Caedus noted earlier he was “quickly recovering”. So the relevance of these injuries is definitely minor and only came into play after Katarn was defeated, which further proves my point about him being taxed by the duel.

I fail to see the relevance of this “advantage” . Caedus never appears to be distracted from the fight at any moment, even if he’s keeping awareness on the vehicles. I also think you’re using a double standard here, by taking this into account and not his distraction in the fight with Jaina, that being him wanting to alert Tenel aka of the nano-virus, which I see as a far more substantial advantage. 1- Just like against Katarn, but to a much greater degree, in this specific instance his injuries were a disadvantage rather than the opposite. In fact the text notes that Caedus was putting a great deal of force energy into sustaining himself, rather than the opposite:
From this description we can see the injuries were an impairment to him rather than a way to fuel his power.
While it is true that Jaina was hurt as well, you’ve yet to prove those injuries were anywhere near Caedus’ own. And regardless: I agree, however this was only a disadvantage for a small part of the fight.

At the end of the day, we’re left with this:

1- Katarn, while helped by 3 nobodies, per various sources, including the book itself, is able to give Caedus a fight while the latter has almost recovered from his duel with Luke.

2- Jaina is solidly inferior to her brother while he is severely injured, distracted and not willing to fight.

Furthermore, taking a look at their previous fight, in which Jaina while amped by Luke struggles against a Caedus who was already injured (link                        ) it seems obvious all evidence points to Jaina being severely inferior to her brother as a general combatant.

Jaina being better than Kyle seems to be dust now, and Cilghal even managed to catch xolthol in an ostensible double standard. Let’s see how she responds.

Kreia’s own comment on the lightsaber form (which MP has already presented) explains this fairly well: Only individuals with great skill and power in the force can learn the technique (take for example Maul, Windu, Bane and so on).
If they can teach the technique i would assume they can also use it themselves…

I don’t see the point of continuing to squabble over dueling minutiae when Cilghal already conceded Traya is the inferior duelist.

We do have proof for that. First of all, Bastila was not necessarily referring to jedi masters that were alive. For instance, if you say “I have created better pieces than all but the greatest composers” you are not necessarily referring to composers that are alive. Secondly, i do think at least Vrook was among those “most powerful jedi masters” she mentioned, as he was one of the masters of the council that she met when she brought Revan to the Jedi:                        

And note that this was almost immediately after she mentioned that some for the most powerful jedi lived there. Add that to the fact that, the masters are implied to be on the same level by Kreia herself:
as the quote MP utilized clearly applies to those three as well. Now, why is it impressive? Well, that version of Bastila was able to give Revan a moderate fight: Of course I don’t believe the masters would be able to replicate Revan’s feat, because Bastila would be continually drawing on the SF to empower herself, but they would certainly put up a worthy struggle.

I can see several weakspots here, but I’ll leave that to xolthol.

While MP didn’t do that, I did explain it in my first post. 1- The infamous you were afraid quote actually refers to exile, not the masters this can clearly be seen by Traya turning her face towards her and it makes far more sense considering that she was talking about her living without the force:

1- The infamous you were afraid quote actually refers to exile, not the masters this can clearly be seen by Traya turning her face towards her and it makes far more sense considering that she was talking about her living without the force: 2- while it is true the masters are initially taken by surprise, given that Traya is able to pin Vrook I would hardly say she’s incapable “ragdolling” them. For further explanation see my opener in this very thread. I’ve already addressed this. Proof for them being tired? I mean even Kreia was tired, as she noted to the exile before the latter went to meet the three masters.

I don’t understand your last point. The fact that they activated their lightsabers means they were combat-ready, making Traya’s ability to instantly drain them all the more impressive. Sorry, I don’t understand what you mean here, could you explain a bit more in depth? I’d be grateful.
I don’t think jedi masters of that caliber, who have lived through 2 major crisis of the Jedi order, would easily fall pray to Dun Moch. And even if that were the case I don’t think it would have had a drastic effect on the fight(E.I. the masters would have won). And, After all, Kreia will certainly use it against Jaina, even if to a lesser degree.
I agree with you here, that was probably the only part of MP’s post I disagreed with.

Yeah, the feat seems legit. Even if Cilghal did end up conceding one point, I’m more impressed with his defense of it overall than xolthol’s attempt to debunk it. However, one thing which Cilghal still has not touched up on is xolthol’s refutation of the reconstruction of the Enclave. While the effort itself was very poor, the fact that it has gone uncontested means I must consider it a tacit concession on Cilghal’s part.

I’ve already explained in my first post that, based on Atris’ statement, the teachings she garnered on Telos contain teachings on combat techniques: While I see where you’re getting at with the Palpatine example, Traya has actually made use of that knowledge on many occasions, employing powers such as teleportation, force fear, ionize, drain and so on. Here are some examples:

I still don’t see how these would work on Jaina. Using them on muggles altogether different.

Well it’s comparable with the accolades you presented for Jaina.We’re discussing lightsaber skill, not force power. Sure, Nihilus is more powerful than her, but nothing suggests either him or Sion, the former in particular , is superior to her in lightsaber skill. And after all, Jaina hasn’t demonstrated enough force power to achieve what Nihilus did to her so it's kind of a moot point.
It is definitely a generic accolade, although it does place her above the likes of Sion and Visas Marr, two fairly impressive combatants in their own right. That duel had 1 major factor in the exile’s favor:

Kreia literally didn’t have a hand, which would have undoubtedly decreased her effectiveness in combat. However, in this debate, our agreement is that Kreia hasn’t yet lost a limb, which removes his disadvantage.

Furthermore, Meetra has always been portrayed as an impressive force user. For example, Here is what Revan thinks of her: looking at this and all of her accolades and feats I completely agree with MP that she’s better than Jaina.

And lastly, a weaker character defeating a stronger one is not unheard of in SW, see Anakin vs Obi wan, Maul vs Kenobi… in both cases a certain character should have realistically won but the other “menages to” defeat him via several factor, which in this case are unknown given that it’s a video game fight, but the description of the complete encyclopedia points to that being the case. As such, MP’s points about Traya’s knowledge of Echani combat techniques still stand, as you haven’t provided a valid counter.

The same argument applies to the rest of your post.

Again, I don’t see the point of continuing to debate something one has already conceded. Jaina’s the better duelist now, so these points don’t really matter in the grand scheme of things.

Before concluding my post I would like to present a small scaling for Traya, which really shows the depth of her force power. Now, Visas Marr is a miraluka, who was taken as Nihilus’ apprentice after his draining of Katarr. By the time of KOTOR 2, she is noted as being only second after her master: This would make her stronger and more skilled than almost all the sith in the triumvirate, some of whom have great accolades:
Furthermore, she has shown great willpower, resisting Fredon Nadd’s tomb and dispelling its dark side energy: She also shown to be capable of eliminating hordes of sith with the strength of her force lightning:
Despite this, she is literally crushed by Traya with a mere gesture:
So, here we have it, Darth Traya is literally able to fodderize an opponent who is capable of carving his way through hordes of sith and is considered only second to Nihilus. To me, it Seems better than anything Jaina has, but feel free to prove otherwise.

Again, these scaling chains and feats have to be connected to Jaina for them to establish Traya as her superior. Even with Jaina’s own scaling gone, it doesn’t prove she’s weak, only that she’s an unknown (unless Cilghal can establish a ceiling for her in his finisher).

let’s summarize my arguments:

1- All Jaina has in terms of accolades are some very generic statements which do not put her above Jaden Korr but, by LOTF, she’s below all the masters. I have yet to see proof of a substantial growth from the it to FOTJ/Crucible.

2- Jaina’s fight with Caedus, compared with Katarn’s, actually places her below the battlemaster.

3- All your rebuttals to Kreia’s feats and accolades have been appropriately countered, so both my and MP’s arguments about Kreia’s accolades and feats and knowledge still stand.

4- My arguments in the first post, especially the one about the effectiveness of Traya’s drain also stands, as you’ve provided no counter to it.

Ultimately, Kreia has all she needs to win this fight.

Good luck @Xolthol with your response.

As this is Cilghal’s last big post, I’ll reserve my full thoughts until the very end when I’ve read both his and xolthol’s finishers.


Last edited by Azronger on February 23rd 2020, 7:25 am; edited 2 times in total
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February 14th 2020, 12:29 am
@Bart @The Ellimist Bump for you to vote on this debate. @Azronger already begin
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February 24th 2020, 12:01 pm
@xolthol @MasterCilghal

xolthol’s Post #3

I won’t be quoting and commenting on this post section-by-section because I don’t have much to say for large swathes of it: everything was addressed as far as I saw, and the arguments were fair although obviously not beyond contention. It’s also good that xolthol finally tied Jaina to Traya and exploited Cilghal and Meatpants’ mistake with Luke, and at other points she caught Cilghal ignoring some of her points. In my opinion this is by far the strongest post out of this entire debate, but it’s a bit problematic since Cilghal only has a finisher and therefore so few characters to respond, so I’m unsure as to how much weight I’ll give this post in relation to the others. I guess it’ll depend on the contents of Cilghal’s finisher.
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February 26th 2020, 7:51 am


For the most part, both debaters did address their opponents' arguments and so the generic back-and-forth won't be factored in extensively because of Cilghal's inability to address xolthol's last post in full due to the limited character count imposed by the finishers. However, Cilghal made several crucial mistakes that ultimately cost him this debate in my opinion. Firstly, in his opener he conceded Traya's inferiority to Jaina as a duelist for seemingly no reason, which meant that he would have to rely exclusively on power-based arguments for her. And when it came to those arguments, he failed to connect any of Traya's feats to Jaina; he gave no reason why feat X should put Traya above Jaina. So while xolthol did end up ignoring things like Traya one-shotting those Sith Assassins and the scaling from Visas Marr, it's not really relevant in the grand scheme of things (especially considering what xolthol brought to the table later). And xolthol's primary attack on the Dantooine feat - that the Jedi Master's didn't actually reconstruct the Jedi Enclave - went completely unopposed by Cilghal. Conversely, Cilghal ended up completely conceding the Jaden Korr scaling xolthol brought for Jaina to match the Dantooine feat, and the attempts by him and Meatpants to undo the quote binding Jaina to the scaling actually ended up backfiring because early on xolthol had noted that being more powerful than someone doesn't automatically equate to being a better combatant, so the argument that Luke was more powerful than Jaina doesn't invalidate the quote placing her as his equal in combat, and as Cilghal proved, Luke was actually included in that quote, inadvertently strengthening xolthol's case. She then skillfully exploited this opening by making a scaling chain where Luke - and by consequence, Jaina - was far above Traya in power. And yes, this was in her third post which Cilghal only had a limited amount of space to address, but he could have at least tried to refute this particular point which was probably the single most important argument in this entire debate (as of opposed to simply repeating arguments he had already made that xolthol had already addressed in her third post), because it ended up accomplishing what Cilghal himself had failed to do for the duration of three posts: actually tying the character to the opposing one and establishing their superiority in a logical way. And cleverly exploiting the opponent's mistake like that to one's own benefit is always a bonus in my eyes.

So, while @MasterCilghal did put up a fight, @xolthol is the one who gets my vote in the end. That is my official decree as a judge chosen for this debate.
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February 26th 2020, 11:52 am
@Azronger Thanks for voting in this SS. Hoping that @Bart @The Ellimist will cast their vote one day or another.
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February 26th 2020, 12:09 pm
Instead of Bart we’ll be having @DarthAnt66. Is it fine for you?
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February 26th 2020, 12:33 pm
The debate has been done for the past 5 months and only now has a single judging post? Once my debate with MP is finished, are the judges going to take two years to judge it? I love how you all respect punctuality.
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February 26th 2020, 1:16 pm
HP seriously quit bitching about everything. Like dude, are you on your period?
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February 26th 2020, 1:44 pm
Isv wrote:HP seriously quit bitching about everything. Like dude, are you on your period?

🇪🇭 🇪🇭 🇪🇭

It isn't "bitching" to point out that mods having not judged a debate despite having had 5 months to do is disgraceful. All of them have been participating in gigantic WoT debates when they could have been judging as well, so there really is no excuse.
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February 26th 2020, 2:17 pm
Just because you have the luxury of sitting at a keyboard doing nothing with your life doesn't mean others do.

Seriously, keep your ego toned down and stop whining on every thread ffs
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February 26th 2020, 2:19 pm
Imagine thinking that everyone has the same amount of time as a kid in high school to post massive posts or read WoTs in detail then judge and provide detailed judgements...
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February 26th 2020, 2:22 pm
Shut it, all of you.
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February 26th 2020, 2:23 pm
Sorry Az, feel free to delete my messages. I hope you agree I'm not being unfair though, he has been like this for a few days now
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February 26th 2020, 3:01 pm

I don't assume everyone has the same amount of time as me, but the idea that they can't spare enough time to judge over 5 months is ridiculous. I already even pointed out that they had time to write out massive walls of text in the top 15 tournament - time they could have spent judging this.

@Isv: See above. Anyway:

Seriously, keep your ego toned down and stop whining on every thread ffs

Any ego problems I may have are not relevant to the current topic of discussion. Telling the mods to get their act together, and judge a debate they agreed to do (they shouldn't have accepted if they couldn't do so in a reasonable time frame) has nothing to do with my ego.
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February 26th 2020, 8:31 pm
I would judge but honestly everything Az said was correct, my verdict would be little different, if at all.
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