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TPM Maul vs TPM Windu

DarthSkywanker0 wrote:This is obviously a concern in methodology, but my primary goal isn't to fulfill some ridiculous notion of a holistic quota, but rather to create an empirical ranking.

Cool.

Strict adherence to quotes that pre-date all Clone Wars material - which is the majority of PT content - are a lolworthy way to conclude .... (your subjective idea) of an empirical ranking.  

But by all means carry on.  

You can the use the morsels suggesting Maul is > Yoda to the confuse the path to enlightenment further.

The best way to do that is through strict adherence to quotes as they lack the ambiguity of feats.

The ambiguity of cereal box quotes claiming Yoda = mace isn't in question.

Their authority and credibility however...

For one, where's the basis ?  

They aren't derived from a census that LFL people had on power levels - an idea which Chee refuted himself - claiming there was no council of deliberators agreeing upon an eMprICaL rAnKiNg for Sith and Jedi.

Q:

I don't know for sure but I would imagine that there are no hard and fast lists about which Jedi and Sith are the most powerful. "Most Powerful" would have lots of different variables to take into account.


Leland Chee :

Agreed, us continuity people don't deal in absolutes. Only Sith deal in absolutes.
With that said, we'll often need to come up with stats or rankings for gameplay purposes. These are for gameplay purposes only. Stunt coordinato Nick Gillard had his own lightsaber ranking, but even the use of this ranking system is limited because it was only the major characters from the prequel films that he ranked. We never expanded on that ranking system.

So they aren't part of a hidden tier list, nor are they reflections of Lucas' mind.  

Gillard would know... having received the only thing close to an empirical ranking from Lucas himself.  Which is ironically referenced above and had Mace only bordering tier 8/9 compared to Sidious and Yoda's solid 9 for Revenge of the Sith.

So where exactly are these do quotes claiming TPM Yoda = TPM Mace take their basis from?

By deductive reasoning, I can only say they're subjective opinions of the author's who themselves are interpreting the content.  And given that all these quotes for Mace predate AOTC, The Clone Wars, Revenge of the Sith - where we actually see these characters demonstrate their power - they can all be tossed.

In their stead we can cite newer sources such as Dark Rendevouz - "perhaps Mace was Dooku's equal on neutral ground' among newer events that actually happened in the lore. This as oppose to religious methodology found in biblical times favouring blind faith in dated quotes, Harrison

But as you are a Jew, I understand why clinging to the old scribes is of paramount importance.

That being said, I'll do my best to respond to these narrative counterpoints.

Proof that spar is an accurate proxy of a real duel.

Because the examples of competitive spars often reflect the outcomes of real duels.

Dooku is hard-pressed to beat Grievous in their spars (Labyrinth of Evil).  Mace - Dooku's equal on neutral ground at that point, - is clearly hard-pressed to do the same.

Yoda destroyed three armed council masters while he himself was unarmed. Sidious - who is Yoda's peer on neutral ground destroyed 3 Council masters  instantly with Mace to back them up.

If Dooku and Yoda were the only people who scored victories against Mace, despite him probably having countless spars with council-tier ilk, then it means there was no room for those below him to cause an upset. Giving credence to the correlation of sparring and real duels.

To conclude my answer, I don't see why spars shouldn't be proxy for real duels, when the one caveat feasibly differentiating them is that either participant might hold back (mitigated by use of training sabers) . But you already admitted might be a problem for Mace in a real duel:

Huh, a Jedi holding back who would have thought it possible.

So.....

I mean hell it was rumored that Plo beat Yoda in a spar.

Given that Plo Koon was one of the trio humiliated by Yoda in the unarmed demonstration I refferenced, it seems we can put that rumour to bed.

All that's left to ask is which bottom-of-the-barrel source is this from?

Dooku could not replicate this performance against Yoda.

Zig : Dooku beat Mace in spars

Darthskywanker : Dooku could not replicate this performance against Yoda

....

*Doing your best

Given you have failed to prove any of them I shoout of the kindness of my heart, I'll provide a nice quote(I have no interest in having this debate on your terms.) TPM Mace is stated to be above Jedi Dooku as a duelist.

Under Yoda's tutelage, Dooku became one of the greatest sword masters the Order had ever produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself.

Source: The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection #48

1) Eclipsing Dooku wouldn't preclude them from being on the same tier as Jedi, nor would it preclude TPM Windu from being Darth Tyranus' lesser as a sith Lord.  Both are a tier away from Yoda, which is the point I was making anyway.

2) Eclipsing Dooku wouldn't preclude him from loosing a fight, including spars a few times out of ten, so there isn't a contradiction

3) No where in the sentence is Mace capped to his TPM iteration, so well done for fudging your own evidence.

Not sure which duel you are referring to. I'd rather see your logic first before chasing after a phantom.

It's a well known fight, so a paltry respect thread skim for either character should give you all the info you need.  As stated before. He failed to incap Ventress. And the biblical source quotes you swear fealty by claimed he needed all his power just to make her flee.

I'd hardly call the small clash a stalemate given the duel never finishes, and Mace manages to knock him off balance.

Said small clash involved Grievous eventually adapting to Mace's unfamiliar style as the fight progressed, matching him blow for blow, with the latter opting to use a Force push on a target who couldn't move in that environment nor could respond with force power in kind, just to BFR.

To be frank, I don't particularly care. Feats are a very nebulous source of information.

The outliers are obvious enough for a smart person to wade through. The true difference is that feats are more narratively important. They are events that actually happened within the mythos. Whether as 3rd person sources, especially those dubbing any individual Jedi "most powerful" seem to just be commenting on and interpreting said sources.

We will likely reach an impasse here as there is no objective methodology in a fictional setting. But, more and more people are switching towards my system so I suggest you hop on board.

Why would I do that when stomping every single one of you is much more fun?  

Bandwagoning with retards doesn't befit someone who debates SW once in a blue Moon.

TPM Maul vs TPM Windu

Ziggy wrote:The only people who think TPM Windu is on Yoda's level are the kind that let (mostly dated) cereal box quotes dictate their meta as oppose to the actual events in the Story

This is obviously a concern in methodology, but my primary goal isn't to fulfill some ridiculous notion of a holistic quota, but rather to create an empirical ranking. The best way to do that is through strict adherence to quotes as they lack the ambiguity of feats. That being said, I'll do my best to respond to these narrative counterpoints.

Ziggy wrote:As for the facts

> Jedi Dooku could defeat Windu in spars

Thanks for sharing this irrelevant detail. You have yet to prove these three things:

1. A spar is an accurate proxy of a real duel. I mean hell it was rumored that Plo beat Yoda in a spar.

2. Dooku could not replicate this performance against Yoda.

3. Their dueling record must dictate their force parity.  

Given you have failed to prove any of them, I should dismiss this argument prima facie. But out of the kindness of my heart, I'll provide a nice quote(I have no interest in having this debate on your terms.) TPM Mace is stated to be above Jedi Dooku as a duelist.

Under Yoda's tutelage, Dooku became one of the greatest sword masters the Order had ever produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself.

Source: The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection #48

Ziggy wrote:SIth Dooku is stronger

Good to know.

Ziggy wrote:Is clearly still not on Yoda's level

Why is the sentence structure here still horrid. Are you trying to make it seem like you have more points than you actually have?

Ziggy wrote:Mace can't incap Ventress

Not sure which duel you are referring to. I'd rather see your logic first before chasing after a phantom.

Ziggy wrote:Would sooner die before fully harnessing his own darkness until shatterpoint

Huh, a Jedi holding back who would have thought it possible.

Ziggy wrote:Stalemates GG in duelling with the latter at a disadvantage

I'd hardly call the small clash a stalemate given the duel never finishes, and Mace manages to knock him off balance. This would be the equivalent of capping Anakin to Ventress(thus the problem with strictly feat-based comparisons).  This is far from a direct contradiction, and that is what is required for me to dismiss the quotes.

Ziggy wrote:He looses here because of lack of feats.

To be frank, I don't particularly care. Feats are a very nebulous source of information. They are less equipt at helping me achieve my goal of empirically ranking the characters. We will likely reach an impasse here as there is no objective methodology in a fictional setting. But, more and more people are switching towards my system so I suggest you hop on board.

Jedi Master Dooku vs Shaak Ti (TFU)

LOTL wrote:I think you have a bit of trouble comprehending the actual quote:

Am I? Well if you want to get really technical, we have these two virtually identical quotes:

Under Yoda's tutelage, Dooku became one of the greatest sword masters the Order had ever produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself.


Yoda taught many pupils throughout his years, including Dooku, who became one of the finest sword masters the Order ever produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself.


I don't like how you dismiss subjective quotes as if they're completely useless, considering there's a literal plethora of them that indicate very strongly that if Dooku was second only to Windu and Yoda, he would also give them a good fight. I would concede to you here if there was one of them, but there's more than one. The point I was making is that, roughly speaking, Master Dooku can give the likes of Windu and Yoda a good fight, which is something neither Galen Marek at the time of Felucia, nor Shaak Ti heaven's forbid, could even hope to match.

LOTL wrote:And no, fact files and prima guides clearly have Mace above Dooku, objective quotes not the opinions of random Jedi( yeah they are random Jedi), this is ignoring the many more quotes that have Mace as comparable to or even superior to Yoda

Fact Files are in-universe, and the prima guides (if they're the ones I'm thinking you're referring to) were written before Dooku even existed as a character. Prima Guide quotes should also be considered carefully, considering one quote claims Qui-Gon is more skilled than Yoda or any other Jedi.

LOTL wrote:Yoda too only taught the Count as an initiate. Yoda too is attached to Dooku, emotionally, and the fact that his judgement is compromised is evident by the fact that he offers the Count a place in the Jedi Order again, in spite of the Count being responsible for the devastation of a galaxy, so yeah, I am taking those statements lightly.. Especially as Anakin is evidently the Order's most gifted student by far

Not really... Yoda also gave Dooku special instruction with his lightsaber skills even as a Padawan under Thame. And this is besides the point, the quote from the TPM novelisation was retconned with the introduction of Dooku into the SW universe.

Also, I find it hard to believe that you're basing part of that argument on what you consider to be Yoda's failing in morality, as if that has anything to do with it.

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Maul (ILS)

Maul’s Modus Operandi

Maul is the ultimate Sith Warrior, a killing machine. He “prefers to overwhelm his targets with rapid, agile attacks”, to close down on his opponents in contrast to Dooku who prefers to keep them at bay with Lightning and footwork. He enters a “trance-like state” that allows him to focus solely on lightsaber combat, and with his “utter devotion to Form VII’s physical focus” he tends to desire a “purely physical victory.”




The Dark Side sourcebook summarises what it means to be a Sith Warrior - the “living embodiment of rage and savagery”.

The Sith warrior combines combat mastery with the power of the dark side to create a living embodiment of rage and savagery. Physical conditioning and punishing discipline make the Sith warrior into a formidable opponent, and facility with the powers of the dark side add a wicked barb to an otherwise deadly weapon. The Sith warrior is dedicated to the conquest and subjugation of any obstacle to the Sith tradition. Throughout history, a single Sith warrior has usually been more than a match for most Jedi.
[...]
The way of the Sith warrior is a constant, unforgiving test of will and ability, honing each into a blade fearsome enough to cut through the heart of the hated Jedi Order. Every Sith warrior dreams of being the one who will destroy this ancient enemy of the Sith.
Where other Sith focus on plots and deceptions, the Sith warrior devotes himself to the art of violence.
[...]
The first Sith warrior identified as such is Darth Maul. By the time he is discovered, he has already made the transition to Sith Lord.

―The Dark Side Sourcebook

Maul is a devoted Juyo Master. The Jedi describe Form VII as giving yourself over to emotion, being swept up in the thrill of the fight. Mace Windu adds that his variation of Form VII is a state of mind that “leads through the penumbra of the Dark Side”, but in Maul’s case he is not merely being lead through the penumbra - he gives himself over to the dark side utterly, using the “Sith style” to enter a “trance-like state”, letting him “experience transcendance. In that moment, you are a perfect being and you cannot be beaten-you are at last embraced within Juyo.”





From the opening bell, Maul is going to be on Arcann like flies on a pile of s**t. He’s going to swarm him relentlessly until he is dead. Given Arcann’s own propensity as a warrior (see his fights with the Outlander, Vaylin, the KOTFE trailer, and so on), he is likely to meet him head-on, playing to Maul’s greatest strength from the onset.

The Banite Sith

The Banite Sith, culminating with Sidious, had the most advanced understanding of all aspects of the Force of any Force-using tradition in history, rivalling and in many ways surpassing the Jedi Order itself.

The Sith spent a thousand years evolving by studying all aspects of the Force, remaking themselves, whereas the Jedi spent a thousand years training to refight the last war against the Sith.

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi-

The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

―Revenge of the Sith

Each Banite Sith passed along their knowledge and was more powerful than the last, in spite of any setbacks.

"Never again would there be more than two Sith Lords at one time, but members of the order continued expanding their dark powers without the knowledge of the Jedi, waiting for the opportunity to seize control of the galaxy."

―The Official Star Wars Fact File #1

"As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation."

―Episode 1: The Phantom Menace Scrapbook

"Ultimately, Bane's plan produced more powerful Sith Lords with each generation."

―Force and Destiny

This is due to the fact that “many of the most important elements of Sith training” and “real knowledge” is passed from master to apprentice in unrecorded training sessions, opposed to learning from holocrons and other materials.

Sadly he could glean only so much from the texts, crystals, and holocrons stored in the library. Crucial knowledge had been lost during the brief mastery of Darth Gravid, and many of the most important elements of Sith training since had been passed from Masters to apprentices in sessions that had been left unrecorded.

―Darth Plagueis

Sidious remained silent for a long moment. "Am I to be equally distrustful of the lessons contained in Sith Holocrons?"

"Not distrustful," Plagueis said gravely. "But holocrons contain knowledge specific and idiosyncratic to each Sith who constructed them. Real knowledge is passed by Master to apprentice in sessions such as this, where nothing is codified or recorded-diluted-and thus it cannot be forgotten. There will come a time when you may wish to consult the holocrons of past Masters, but until then you would do better not to be influenced by them. You must discover the dark side in your own way, and perfect your power in your own fashion.

―Darth Plagueis

Sidious came to possess all of Plagueis’ secrets before he killed him, including the Sith Archives on Aborah.

The tour began in the outermost rooms, which were appointed with furnishings and objects of art of the highest quality, gathered from all sectors of the galaxy. But Plagueis was neither as acquisitive as a Neimoidian nor as ostentatious as a Hutt; and so the ornamented chambers quickly gave way to data-gathering rooms crowded with audio-vid receivers and HoloNet projectors; and then to galleries filled to overflowing with ancient documents and tomes, recorded on media ranging from tree trunk parchment through flimsiplast to storage crystal and holocron. The Muuns were said to abhor literature and to loathe keeping records of anything other than loan notices, actuarial tables, and legal writs, and yet Plagueis was guardian of the one of the finest libraries to be found anywhere outside Obroa-skai or the Jedi Temple on Coruscant. Here, neatly arranged and cataloged and stored in climate-controlled cases, was a collection of treatises and commentaries accumulated over centuries by the Sith and their often unwitting agents. Ancient histories of the Rakata and the Vjun; texts devoted to the Followers of Palawa, the Chatos Academy, and the Order of Dai Bendu; archives that had once belonged to House Malreaux; annals of the Sorcerers of Tund and of Queen Amanoa of Onderon; biological studies of the ysalimiri and vornskrs of Myrkr, and of the taozin of Va’art. Certain long-lived species, like the Wookiees, Hutts, Falleen, and Toydarians, were afforded galleries of their own.

Deeper in the mountain were laboratories where Plagueis’s real work took place. Confined to cages, stasis fields, bioreactors, and bacta tanks were life-forms brought to Muunilinst from across the galaxy—many from the galaxy’s most remote worlds. Some were creatures of instinct, and others were semisentient. Some were immediately recognizable to 11-4D; others resembled creatures concocted from borrowed parts. Some were newly birthed or hatched, and some looked as if they were being kept at death’s door. More than a few were the subjects of ongoing experiments in what seemed to be vivisection or interbreeding, and others were clearly in suspended animation. OneOne-FourDee noted that many of the animals wore remotes that linked them to biometric monitoring machines, while others were in the direct care of specialist droids. Elsewhere in the hollow of the mountain were sealed enclosures warmed by artificial light, aswirl with mixtures of rarefied gases and luxuriant with flora. And deeper still were test centers crammed with complex machines and glass-fronted cooling units devoted to the storage of chemical compounds, alkaloids derived from both plants and animals, blood and tissue samples, and bodily organs from a host of species.

Plagueis instructed 11-4D to wander about the galleries and laboratories on his own, and then report back to him.

Hours later the droid returned to say: “I recognize that you are involved in research related to species durability and hybridization. But I must confess to being unfamiliar with many of the examples of fauna and flora you have amassed, and few of the arcane documents in your library. Is the data available for upload?”

“Some portion of it,” Plagueis said. “The remainder will have to be scanned.”

“Then the task will require standard years, Magister.”

“I’m aware of that. While there is some urgency, we are in no rush.”

“I understand, sir. Is there specific data you wish me to assimilate first?”

From the breast pocket of his cloak, Plagueis withdrew a storage crystal. “Start with this. It is a history of the Sith.”

―Darth Plagueis

Exiting the turbolift, the first thing to catch Sidious’s eye was the library: rack after rack of texts, scrolls, disks, and holocrons—all the data he had been craving since his apprenticeship began. He ran his hands lovingly over the shelves but barely had time to revel in his excitement when 11-4D ushered him onto a descending ramp that led into what might have been a state-of-the-art medical research facility.

―Darth Plagueis

Still in safekeeping on Aborah were texts and holocrons that recounted the deeds and abilities of Sith Masters who, so it was said and written, had been able to summon wind or rain or fracture the skies with conjured lightning. In their own words or those of their disciples, a few Dark Lords claimed to have had the ability to fly, become invisible, or transport themselves through space and time.

―Darth Plagueis

Atop a pedestal alongside the chair sat the holocrons Sidious had asked his apprentice to search out and retrieve from the Jedi archives room. Pyramidal in shape, as opposed to the geodesic Jedi version, the holocrons were repositories of recorded knowledge, accessible only to those who were highly evolved in the use of the Force. Arcane writing inscribed on the holocrons Vader had fetched told Sidious that they had been recorded by Sith during the era of Darth Bane, some one thousand standard years earlier. Sidious didn't have to imagine the content of the devices, because his own Master, Darth Plagueis, had once allowed him access to the actual holocrons. The ones stored in the Temple archives room were nothing more than clever forgeries—Sith disinformation of a sort.

―Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

Chancellor Palpatine spent many years studying ancient Holocrons to learn the secrets of the Sith.

―The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded

“The Bith—Venamis...”
“Dispatched by Tenebrous to test me—to eliminate me had I failed. But Venamis has been a gift; essential in helping me unlock some of the deepest secrets of the Force. Every creature you have glimpsed or sensed here has been a similar blessing, as you will see when I lead you into the mysteries.”

―Darth Plagueis

"Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, then his apprentice killed him in his sleep."

―Chancellor Palpatine, Revenge of the Sith

“My mentor taught me everything about the Force, even the nature of the dark side.”

―Chancellor Palpatine, Revenge of the Sith

Sidious served for many decades as the apprentice of Darth Plagueis, learning diligently at the feet of his Master. Once he possessed all of Plagueis' secrets, he retired him.

―Insider #88: Heritage of the Sith

Jedi Dooku

Now let’s look at Jedi Dooku. As of Y:DR, Yoda regards him as “the strongest, wisest and most learned in the ways of the Force”, “the Order’s most gifted apprentice”. He had an understanding of the Force far beyond his peers, would have been a master on par with Yoda had he stayed, and was revered as one of the greatest legends and losses of the Order.

"Hm." Yoda stirred again with his stick. "Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?" He nodded. "Best of all, Dooku would be!" His eyes found the other Jedi, one by one: and one by one, they looked away. "Our greatest student!" Yoda's ears flexed, then dropped. "Our greatest failure."

―Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

On the other side of the galaxy, the Order's most gifted apprentice reached out to tap a lightsaber with the toe of his boot. Count Dooku grimaced.

―Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

The belief that he was better than the other students only seemed to gain further validation when Dooku demonstrated an understanding of the Force far beyond that of his peers.

―Insider #113

Dooku was a unique case in the history of the Jedi Order. Universally respected, he would have been a Master on a par with Yoda had he not abandoned the Order to join its greatest enemies.

―Insider #113

One of the greatest legends of the Jedi Order, and one of its greatest losses, Dooku was a revered Jedi Master until he abandoned his commission, disillusioned with the direction of both the Jedi and the Republic they served.

―The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Mace Windu and Yoda were the most powerful Jedi Masters to have ever walked the corridors of the Jedi Temple. They were considered to be on equal terms with Dooku as a duelist. Dooku was able to match Windu with a lightsaber, and was reckoned to be second only to Yoda.

Alongside Mace Windu, with whom he served on the Jedi Council, Yoda was the most respected and most powerful Master ever to have walked the corridors of the Jedi Temple.

―Star Wars Fact File 11

Yoda took a keen interest in the young Dooku. He assisted in Dooku's combat training and as a result, the Padawan became especially proficient with a lightsaber. Only Masters Yoda and Mace Windu were considered to be on equal terms with him.

―Insider #109

Only Mace himself ever mastered it, and it was reckoned that only Master Yoda and Dooku were ever able to match Windu with a lightsaber.

―The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection #25

Dooku had been reckoned one of the foremost duellists in the Jedi Order, second only to Master Yoda.

―The Official Star Wars Fact File #60

Dooku was one of the greatest sword masters the Order had ever produced - only eclipsed by Yoda and Windu in all of history.

Under Yoda's tutelage, Dooku became one of the greatest sword masters the Order had ever produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself.

―The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection #48

Yoda taught many pupils throughout his years, including Dooku, who became one of the finest sword masters the Order ever produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself.

―The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection #48

In the history of the Jedi Order, only Yoda and Dooku had ever overcame Windu in battle.

Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.

―Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

In other words, in the history of the Jedi Order, Yoda and Mace Windu were the most powerful Masters and the greatest duelists ever circa TPM, and Dooku was regarded as their peer, overcame Windu in duels, and his skill was only eclipsed by them in all of Jedi history - making Dooku the 3rd greatest Jedi in history. Remembering what Yoda had to say about Dooku (that he was the strongest, wisest and most learned student of the Jedi Order), the margins between 1st, 2nd and 3rd must be relatively small.

If you want to question the veracity of the “Fact” Files, read this starwars.com article… nowhere is the idea that the “Fact” Files contain “Facts” and “Information” (“facts provided or learned about something or someone.”) contradicted. Even if the information presented in Fact Files are derived from “in-universe sources”, that does not mean the information itself is not factual. Fact Files do not alter, invent or embellish.
https://www.starwars.com/news/the-official-star-wars-fact-files-return-to-our-galaxy

Darth Tyranus

Now that we understand how knowledgeable Dooku was of the Force, understand that Sidious’ Sith training “introduced Dooku to realms of power beyond his most spectacular fantasies”, honed, enhanced and made him more powerful in the Force, and made him a greater Sith Lord than he was a Jedi Master.

Dooku could not argue. Not only had the Dark Lord introduced Dooku to realms of power beyond his most spectacular fantasies, but Sidious was also a political manipulator so subtle that his abilities might be considered to dwarf even the power of the dark side itself.

―Revenge of the Sith novelization

"Powerful you have become, Dooku. The dark side I sense in you."

―Attack of the Clones

He felt Dooku gathering power, and he bowed his head in shock and sorrow as he sensed the true source of the Count's increased ability.

―Attack of the Clones Junior Novelization

"I have spent the last ten years learning to use the power of the Dark Side. It gives me infinitely greater power."

―http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Attack-of-the-Clones.html

Count Dooku is a disillusioned former Jedi Knight who lost faith in the Republic and abandoned the Jedi Order. Dooku spent ten years in seclusion honing his Force abilities - and - as a master of the old style of fencing - wields his scimitar-handled lightsaber with consummate grace.

―Count Dooku - Dark Lord (Star Wars SAGA Series, 2002)

This is Dooku, Darth Tyranus, Count of Serenno:

Once a great Jedi master, now an even greater Lord of the Sith, Dooku is a dark colossus bestriding the galaxy. Nemesis of the corrupt Republic, oriflamme of the principled Confederacy of Independent Systems, he is the very personification of shock and awe.

―Revenge of the Sith

Not even Dooku's Sith-enhanced powers were enough for him to defeat Yoda.

―http://www.starwars.com/count-dooku-biography-gallery

Sidious’ training also, specifically, increased Dooku’s skill as a duelist.

―The Official Figurine Collection

His prowess was both exceptional and deadly, and many regarded him as one of the greatest warriors in the history of the Jedi Order. However, once Dooku left the Jedi Order to become an apprentice to the Sith Lord Darth Sidious, his skills became even more formidable.

―The Official Star Wars Fact File #68

For ten long years, Count Dooku lived in hiding, honing his Jedi skills and crafting his vision of the galaxy's future.

―Unleashed Collectibles

Dooku was eclipsed by Windu in TPM, but as of Y:DR (shortly before RotS), Yoda believed that “perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal”, and his decided inferior on Vjun’s dark side nexus.

The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light.

―Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

Despite Mace being Dooku’s junior by 3 decades, being the greater natural prodigy of the two, and his (slight) superiority circa TPM, Dooku’s training at the age of 70 allowed him to offset both the initial gap between him and Mace, and, Mace’s own growth since TPM and through TCW - Yoda did not know if Mace was even his equal. All of that despite Dooku having trained tirelessly for a standard human lifetime as a Jedi under Yoda himself… at which point he surely would have met diminishing returns on any further power increases he sought.

Darth Sidious

How good of a duelist is Sidious? An ambidextrous master of all lightsaber forms, a master of every weapon and style in the universe, a practitioner of exotic and forbidden martial arts (including Echani which Plagueis’ Sun Guards were masters of). Sidious’ unique fighting style is “constantly changing”, “one in which you will never get the better of him”, “ambiguous”, “shrouded”, guided by a philosophy that seeks “to use everything you had available” to win.

Sidious can appear frail and slow, but the Sith Lord should not be underestimated - he is a master of all forms of lightsaber combat.

―The Clone Wars Episode Guide

"Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style."

―Nick Gillard, the prequel stunt coordinator

"I trained him in numerous exotic and forbidden martial arts, disciplined him constantly, and personally applied the Sith tattoos that were evidence of his complete dedication to the dark side."

―Darth Sidious, Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

"Every weapon, manufactured by whatever species, has its own properties and peculiarities," Plagueis was saying, his own blade angled toward the ferrocrete floor of the battledome's fabricated cityscape, as if to light a fuse. "Range, penetrating power, refresh rate... In some instances your life might depend on your ability to focus on the weapon rather than the wielder. You must train yourself to identify a weapon instantly—whether it's a product of BlasTech or Merr-Sonn, Tenloss or Prax—so that you will know where to position yourself, and the several ways to best deflect a well-aimed bolt."

―Darth Plagueis

Grievous wasn't the only villain given his own unique lightsaber method. For Episode III Gillard also was tasked with designing an impressive style for a character fans saw fight only briefly (via Force lightning) in Return of the Jedi -- the Emperor.

―The Official Star Wars Website

"It took a really long time for Nick (Gillard) to work out Sidious' fighting style, and he has a style that's constantly changing. His style is one in which you'll never get the better of him. It is ambiguous --- he'll fight less than you and draw you in; you're a sucker if you think you're going to better him."

―Nikki Gooley, the prequel makeup supervisor

"His character is so shrouded that his fighting style should be shrouded as well. The Emperor is deadly dangerous."

―Nick Gillard

"I think we've got time for a few more exercises," Skywalker decided, turning back to face her. "That technique of yours is very interesting - Obi-Wan never taught me anything about using the tip of the lightsaber blade."

"The Emperor's philosophy was to use everything you had available," Mara said.

―The Last Command

Darth Sidious was a tier 9 lightsaber duelist on Nick Gillard’s scale which he devised to rank the Prequel Trilogy duelists. At a ranking so high fights were determined by minutiae like fighting style differences and environmental circumstances… Sheev is “in a way” better than Yoda (another tier 9) because he uses the dark side, and is capable of besting “even the greatest Jedi warrior in lightsaber combat” (Yoda).

Level nine, the highest level of lightsaber fighting, is occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference.

―The Official Star Wars Website

In the Jedi levels of lightsaber fighting, Obi-Wan is an eight, while Anakin, Yoda and Darth Sidious are nines.

―The Official Star Wars Website

"He's better than Yoda in a way because he has the extra power of the dark side.”

―Nick Gillard

Outwardly frail, Palpatine was in truth a cunning warrior capable of besting even the greatest Jedi warrior in lightsaber combat or by conjuring powerfully destructive Force lightning.

―Star Wars 101: Servants of the Dark Side

Sidious’ abilities are beyond anything we’ve experienced per Gillard, which would include Yoda and Dooku’s fight in AotC. Between the tiers there are Richter scale-esque differences in competency, and even within the tiers themselves there is a “huge difference” - on this point, Gillard outright states that placement within a tier is not based on “how well they fight”, but “how well they learned.”

"Sidious' abilities are beyond anything we've experienced."

―Nick Gillard

"Yes, but it's like a Richter scale - an earthquake - and so the difference between seven and eight and eight and nine is enormous."

―Nick Gillard

"Dooku & Maul are 8, but there is a huge difference inside the numbers themselves. It's not about how well they fight, it's about how well they learned."

―Nick Gillard

TPM Darth Maul

So now that we know how advanced the Banite Sith’s training methods are, and how advanced Sidious’ training methods are - that is to say, unrivalled by anything else in all of galactic history by a country mile - just how thoroughly, with how much devotion did Sidious choose to train Maul from his infancy? “How well did Maul learn?”

Maul has innumerable scars from duels with Sheev where the latter was willing to kill Maul if “he couldn’t stand against his master in a mere training exercise”.

Maul had fought his Master many times, starting when he was little more than a child and continuing through his apprenticeship. His body bore innumerable scars from those duels—lessons in the peril of being too slow or two quick, too weak or too distracted. During Maul’s apprenticeship he had always known that Sidious had been willing to kill him. The Sith had not survived their centuries of exile by being sentimental, and a student who couldn’t stand against his Master in a mere training exercise was worse than useless—he was a waste of valuable resources better used elsewhere. But Maul had never faced his Master when he was actually trying to kill him.

―Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

“As a Sith apprentice, Maul trained against many foes, from combat droids and savage beasts to the toughest adversary of all―Darth Sidious himself.”

―The Clone Wars Campaign Guide

Maul was trained as “a blazing lightsaber aimed directly at the heart of the Jedi Order”, “a perfect Sith weapon”. To Plagueis he was “excellent”, “fearsome”, with “astounding” speed, his body as “lethal as his lightsaber”.

"Where Darth Sidious was a strategist, his fearsome apprentice Darth Maul was a blazing lightsaber aimed directly at the heart of the Jedi Order. A Zabrak born on the world of lridonia, the child who would one day be known as Darth Maul was taken offworld and indoctrinated into the ways of the Dark Side, trained by Darth Sidious in not only Sith lore, but in the Jedi arts. Any display of fear on his part was punished with vicious retribution. Any hint of mercy in his character was rewarded with severe cruelty. One those rare occasions when he relaxed his guard, his master nearly killed him to remind him that a Sith can never afford a moment of rest. After years of this kind of treatment, Darth Maul was absolutely ruthless - a perfect Sith weapon. By the time he reached adolescence, Darth Maul was already a hardened, remorseless killer."

―The Dark Side Sourcebook

"You have made him fearsome," Plagueis remarked without turning from the recording, as the athletic Zabrak cleaved a Colicoid Eradicator droid down the middle and whirled to cut two others in half. The yellow-eyed humanoid's hairless head bore a crown of small horns and geometrical patterns of black and red markings.

"Fearless, as well," Sidious said.
[...]
Plagueis spent a long moment observing the holorecording. The Zabrak's fists and legs were as lethal as his lightsaber, and his speed was astounding.

―Darth Plagueis

“He is a prideful one, the Zabrak, is he not? As excellent as he is in combat, it must be incredibly difficult for him to show restraint in not using the Force.”

―Darth Plagueis (Maul: Lockdown)

Sheev has stated, three times, that Maul’s skill as a warrior is unmatched.

"Thus far your apprenticeship has been impeccable. You have never wavered in your intent, and you have executed your tasks flawlessly. Your skill as a sword master is peerless."

―Darth Sidious (Darth Maul: Saboteur)

Alone in his secret chambers, Darth Sidious meditated on this latest set of circumstances.
In many ways Darth Maul was an exemplary acolyte. His loyalty was unquestionable and unshakable; Sidious knew that, if he were to command it, Maul would sacrifice his life without a second’s hesitation. And his skills as a warrior were nonpareil.

―Darth Sidious (Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter)

“The battle began in the hangar. Darth Maul activated his double-ended lightsaber, a weapon he fashioned himself under my supervision. In his hands this weapon was flawless - or so I thought.”

―Darth Sidious (Episode I Journal: Darth Maul)

He trained him to be “invincible”, with a lightsaber that is “part of” him no different than a limb.

“This will be your weapon, Lord Maul. In order to serve me well, you must be invincible." Pointing to the hologram, he continued, "You must build the lightsaber yourself so that you know it intimately. It will be fitted for your hand, balanced for your stroke. You shall train with it until it is a part of you.”

―The Wrath of Darth Maul

His entire existence consisted of combat training so that he could be the best possible tool of Sheev’s will.

Maul’s entire existence had consisted of training, of exercise and instruction. Early in his life, before his voice had deepened, Maul had learned the intricate movements and forms of the teräs käsi fighting style, the patterns of movements based on the hunting characteristics of various beasts throughout the galaxy: Charging Wampa, Rancor Rising, Dancing Dragonsnake, and many more. He had practiced gymnastics in environments ranging from zero-g to gravity fields twice that of Coruscant’s. He had mastered the intricate and dangerous use of the double-bladed lightsaber. And all for one purpose: to be the best possible tool of his master’s will.

―Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

Maul performs “ten thousand” attacks “a hundred times a day”. His lightsaber is an extension of his arm. He trains this obsessively, yet he already knows the movements so well he can fight without thought and has not made a single mistake in years.

When I complete my basic exercises, I power up my double-bladed lightsaber and practice maneuvers. My body is as strong as durasteel and as fluid as water. I shift from one position of attack to another. I fall on one knee and slash my lightsaber as I imagine cleaving my victim cleanly. I roll away and grip my lightsaber with both hands for a vertical sweep. I leap and twist and come down, leading with my left shoulder. I deliver a death blow and leap away, somersaulting in the air. I perform ten thousand slashes, lunges, attacks.

My lightsaber is no longer a separate weapon, but part of my arm. I move in the time it would take my opponent to blink. I move in the time he would take to raise his weapon. He would only see the space where I had been. He would feel the sudden shock of the blow that would knock him to the floor.

I do these maneuvers a hundred times a day. I do them even though my body knows them intimately, even though I have not made a mistake or a misstep in years. I do them until the memory of the movement is part of the muscle itself. The goal of the Sith is to fight without thought.

―Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Maul was trained mercilessly in all forms of the Sith arts, a master of all things foul, pushing his Force abilities to the extreme. He focused all his skills and energy on being the most highly trained Sith in the history of the order.

"A deadly combatant and powerful Sith Lord, Maul spent his entire life in servitude to the dark side of the Force. Taken from his home at a very early age by Darth Sidious, Maul was trained mercilessly in all forms of the Sith arts, becoming the living embodiment of evil."

―Star Wars: Fandex Deluxe Edition



Per Dave Filoni, who was the main authority behind Maul’s return in TCW (working within Lucas’ framework), Maul is “well trained by Sidious in all types of Sith ways”, and is trained “in his likeness”.

“Maul is a super dangerous threat because he’s been trained for years, he’s really adept, but he’s broken. So he’s kind of in the Vader-realm, and he’s a bit severed from what he knew, which was having a master, but he’s well trained by Sidious in all types of Sith ways, not the least of which is manipulation.”

―Dave Filoni, Director of The Clone Wars

“The root of that though is that if he is a good apprentice to Sidious, Sidious would train him in his likeness really, and teach him what he knows. The Sith by their nature can’t be so overt. He is a deadly weapon because George needed him to be that in Phantom Menace, but he didn’t have the time to get more into who he is.”

―Dave Filoni, Director of The Clone Wars

Sidious trained Maul to “become strong in every way”.

"While you might think that your life is harsh and unpleasant, and that I am sometimes cruel, there is a reason for you to endure such pain. The reason is that you must become strong in every way. You must learn to overcome pain. Someday, you might become stronger than I. You'd like that, wouldn't you? To be stronger than I?"

―The Wrath of Darth Maul

He is proof that the Sith are back and “deadlier than ever”


He is a weapon forged to ensure victory over the Jedi, pure evil with no personality beyond his devotion to Sheev. His singular goal was to defeat the Jedi.

A weapon forged by the hateful energies of the dark side to ensure the victory of the Sith over the Jedi Order. A creature of pure evil, Maul had no personality beyond his ultimate devotion to his master, Darth Sidious. His goal was singular-to exact revenge upon the Jedi for the decimation of the Sith ranks.

No one knows how Darth Sidious came across his young and deadly apprentice. He was raised from a young age to be a weapon, tempered by harsh, abusive training to become an incredible warrior.

―The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Maul was “an almost unstoppable weapon”, trained to “become stronger, faster and smarter than any adversary could anticipate.” His endurance was trained to its very limits.


I’ll reiterate here that “many of the most important elements of Sith training” and “real knowledge” is passed from master to apprentice in unrecorded training sessions, opposed to learning from holocrons and other materials.

In training Maul, Sheev followed the Banite tradition, and when Maul took Savage as his apprentice, he temporarily became a rival and broke the Rule of Two.

TCW Darth Maul

After being cut in half, Maul lived in destitute isolation on the junk world Lotho Minor, where for twelve years he focused a singular hatred for Obi-Wan Kenobi so powerful that it let him defy death and sustain his broken body. This anger drove him to insanity and increased his power.

“My hatred kept my spirit intact even though my body was not. Yet I was lost and became a rabid animal, and such is how you found me, brother, discarded.”

―Darth Maul (The Clone Wars Season 4 Episode 22: Revenge)

“You may have forgotten me, but I will never forget you. You cannot imagine the depths I would go to, to stay alive, fueled by my singular hatred of you.”

―Darth Maul To Obi-Wan Kenobi (The Clone Wars Season 4 Episode 22: Revenge)

Maul should have died that day, but his rage and hatred had allowed him to fight back against fate, to summon the Force and survive. He had fallen, but he had lived. Somehow he had survived, making way across the Outer Rim to the junk piles of Lotho Minor. There he had dwelled amid trash and madness remembering only that he’d been ruined and cheated.

―Darth Maul Shadow Conspiracy

Though Maul was horribly maimed in his battle with Kenobi, his unquenchable rage allowed him to survive, even as he was driven half-mad by pain and fury.

―Darth Maul: Death Sentence

In the years following his defeat at the hands of Obi-Wan Kenobi, the rage that sustained Maul’s body also consumed his sanity.

―The Clone Wars: The Sith Hunters

“I still don’t understand how that Sith Lord could even be alive… you cut him in half, Master Kenobi -- not to mention he fell down a reactor shaft.”

“Yes, Tatsu. Only one consumed by the Dark Side of the Force would cling to life so tenaciously. The Sith crave life above all else, Padawan… they wish to control it, dominate it, and thus cling to it with every fiber of their being. I believe Maul’s rage was so powerful, and his knowledge of the Dark Side so great, he simply refused to die…”

―Tatsu & Obi-Wan Kenobi (The Clone Wars: The Sith Hunters)

"Hatred is a hard thing to kill. Darth Maul is a being consumed by hatred. I imagine this hatred -- this rage -- fueled him and kept him alive... and somewhere, somehow, that rage grew. As hard as it is to comprehend, padawan, coming back from near death may have made the Sith Lord stronger... and even more dangerous.”

―Jedi Master Salmara (Darth Maul: Death Sentence)

Between season 4 and season 5 of TCW, Savage Opress noted a significant increase in Maul’s power, attributed to his renewed purpose and vision.

“You have grown so powerful.”

―Savage Opress (The Clone Wars: Season 5 Episode 1: Revival) & (Darth Maul Shadow Conspiracy)

Savage was right. Maul’s power was growing, because he had a purpose again, and a vision.

―Darth Maul Shadow Conspiracy

Obi-Wan notes that Maul is “stronger with the Force than he’d been” and “colder and more determined” than in TPM.

“Obi-Wan didn’t know where the Sith had spent the long years since he’d tumbled down the shaft of the Theed generator core, and he couldn’t imagine what Maul had been doing. But whatever it was, Maul was stronger with the Force than he’d been - stronger, but also colder and more determined.”

―Darth Maul Shadow Conspiracy

Enduring Lotho Minor, training on Umbara, being restored (mentally and physically) by Talzin and training Savage all strengthened Maul, making him a more worthy vessel for the dark side.

Maul had grown more powerful since the last time he'd been in Sidious's presence, before the Neimoidian invasion of Naboo had turned disastrous and Obi-Wan had bested him inside the Theed power core. His hermitage on Lotho Minor, his lessons on Umbara, his restoration by Mother Talzin, and his training of Savage had all strengthened him, made him a more worthy vessel for the dark side to fill with its power.

―Darth Maul Shadow Conspiracy

Maul’s training, understanding, depth of knowledge, skill, effectiveness - use any adjective you like - with the Force, as a lightsaber duelist, a martial artist and as an overall fighter is beyond Arcann. He is better in every way.