Re: TPM Maul vs TPM Windu

July 29th 2019, 12:51 pm

There are even quotes that put Mace above Yoda lol

July 29th 2019, 1:33 pm

There hasn't been quotes putting Windu above Yoda. They were stated to be at the same tier though

July 29th 2019, 2:39 pm

Windu

July 29th 2019, 3:18 pm

Windu solidly

July 29th 2019, 4:46 pm

Windu as of TPM is confirmed to be on Yoda's level. ROTS or not Windu is still more powerful than Maul, Dooku, Kenobi etc.

July 29th 2019, 4:49 pm

SithSauce wrote:Windu as of TPM is confirmed to be on Yoda's level. ROTS or not Windu is still more powerful than Maul, Dooku, Kenobi etc.

July 29th 2019, 4:57 pm

Azronger wrote:There's conflicting info on this. One quote says Windu can't beat Maul on his own, but another quote has Jedi Dooku above Maul, with Jedi Dooku being beneath Windu. One quote also says Maul is perhaps the second greatest duelist in the galaxy behind Sidious as of TPM. I think it'd be a great fight regardless of the victor.

Huh, cool.

July 29th 2019, 5:00 pm

Mace also has a litany of quotes pointing to his parity with Yoda as of TPM.

July 29th 2019, 6:20 pm

The only people who think TPM Windu is on Yoda's level are the kind that let (mostly dated) cereal box quotes dictate their meta as oppose to the actual events in the Story

They can be tossed.

As for the facts

> Jedi Dooku could defeat Windu in spars
> SIth Dooku is stronger
> Is clearly still not on Yoda's level
> Mace can't incap Ventress
> Would sooner die before fully harnessing his own darkness until shatterpoint
> Stalemates GG in duelling with the latter at a disadvantage

He looses here because of lack of feats.

July 29th 2019, 6:37 pm

LOTL wrote:There are even quotes that put Mace above Yoda lol

And it's easy to see why hidden gems like this discredit source-book quotes.

July 29th 2019, 7:04 pm

Ziggy wrote:The only people who think TPM Windu is on Yoda's level are the kind that let (mostly dated) cereal box quotes dictate their meta as oppose to the actual events in the Story

This is obviously a concern in methodology, but my primary goal isn't to fulfill some ridiculous notion of a holistic quota, but rather to create an empirical ranking. The best way to do that is through strict adherence to quotes as they lack the ambiguity of feats. That being said, I'll do my best to respond to these narrative counterpoints.

Ziggy wrote:As for the facts

> Jedi Dooku could defeat Windu in spars

Thanks for sharing this irrelevant detail. You have yet to prove these three things:

1. A spar is an accurate proxy of a real duel. I mean hell it was rumored that Plo beat Yoda in a spar.

2. Dooku could not replicate this performance against Yoda.

3. Their dueling record must dictate their force parity.

Given you have failed to prove any of them, I should dismiss this argument prima facie. But out of the kindness of my heart, I'll provide a nice quote(I have no interest in having this debate on your terms.) TPM Mace is stated to be above Jedi Dooku as a duelist.

Under Yoda's tutelage, Dooku became one of the greatest sword masters the Order had ever produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself.

Source: The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection #48

Ziggy wrote:SIth Dooku is stronger

Good to know.

Ziggy wrote:Is clearly still not on Yoda's level

Why is the sentence structure here still horrid. Are you trying to make it seem like you have more points than you actually have?

Ziggy wrote:Mace can't incap Ventress

Not sure which duel you are referring to. I'd rather see your logic first before chasing after a phantom.

Ziggy wrote:Would sooner die before fully harnessing his own darkness until shatterpoint

Huh, a Jedi holding back who would have thought it possible.

Ziggy wrote:Stalemates GG in duelling with the latter at a disadvantage

I'd hardly call the small clash a stalemate given the duel never finishes, and Mace manages to knock him off balance. This would be the equivalent of capping Anakin to Ventress(thus the problem with strictly feat-based comparisons). This is far from a direct contradiction, and that is what is required for me to dismiss the quotes.

Ziggy wrote:He looses here because of lack of feats.

To be frank, I don't particularly care. Feats are a very nebulous source of information. They are less equipt at helping me achieve my goal of empirically ranking the characters. We will likely reach an impasse here as there is no objective methodology in a fictional setting. But, more and more people are switching towards my system so I suggest you hop on board.

July 29th 2019, 9:26 pm

Vaapad is still 10 years away from completion at this point so it’s out.

Mace wins though

July 30th 2019, 12:12 am

Ziggy wrote:

LOTL wrote:There are even quotes that put Mace above Yoda lol

And it's easy to see why hidden gems like this discredit source-book quotes.

No, but if you have more than 20 or so quotes stating something, then it is accurate to assume that it "might", you know, just "might" be true. Instead of the "toss it" methodology you adopt

July 30th 2019, 12:25 am

Coming to the Dooku comparison:

Jedi Dooku could defeat Windu in spars

Really cool for Dooku. There is just the tiny fact that Dooku is Mace's older by 30 full years meaning if Dooku beats Mace at the age of 28, then it is not an accurate estimate of their ability levels come TPM because Dooku would have hit diminishing returns by that time, as a Jedi. Mace on the other hand being 28 still has most of his potential to actualize. Of course, you may dismiss this as conjecture, but then again, saying TPM Dooku beats TPM Mace because 58 year old Dooku once beat 28 year old Mace too is nothing short of conjecture, though my comparison is at least backed by general data on force users in Star Wars even if it is not binding

To certify that, this is the quote loosely:

"Only Dooku and Yoda ever beat Mace in a spar"

Emphasis on "ever" and that combined with DSO's points and the fact that eventually it turns out that TPM Mace is superior to TPM Dooku, I think this point is pretty moot

July 30th 2019, 12:43 am

We're talking about TPM Windu. So let's throw away all of Lucas' quotes, all of Gillard's quotes, and all quotes/showings post-TPM era. All the quotes TPM era are either (1) - being considered on par with Yoda [subjective]; (2) - could equally considered to be referring to power on the Council, respect, or any other trait other than overall combative power and capabilities. The only TPM quote that I can remember placing him actually on par with Yoda combatively comes from Fact Files, claiming he has "powers on par with Yoda" - the only source to mention powers specifically. And as well know, Fact Files is IU, and therefore subject to interpretation. So no, Windu is not "on par" combatively speaking with Yoda in TPM, and there's no way to prove that - unless there's Lucas quotes from the time that establishes him as such.

July 30th 2019, 3:59 am

Meatpants wrote:We're talking about TPM Windu. So let's throw away all of Lucas' quotes, all of Gillard's quotes, and all quotes/showings post-TPM era. All the quotes TPM era are either (1) - being considered on par with Yoda [subjective]; (2) - could equally considered to be referring to power on the Council, respect, or any other trait other than overall combative power and capabilities. The only TPM quote that I can remember placing him actually on par with Yoda combatively comes from Fact Files, claiming he has "powers on par with Yoda" - the only source to mention powers specifically. And as well know, Fact Files is IU, and therefore subject to interpretation. So no, Windu is not "on par" combatively speaking with Yoda in TPM, and there's no way to prove that - unless there's Lucas quotes from the time that establishes him as such.

Alright, let's look at some quotes.

“Though Yoda’s junior by hundreds of years, Mace Windu was considered Yoda’s equal in terms of ability, insight, and command.”
-- Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

"Mace Windu was one of the most respected figures on the Jedi Council, his power and prestige matched only by Master Yoda."
--Star Wars: Jedi Legacy

“A respected Jedi with powers on par with those of the venerable Yoda, Mace Windu was a senior member of the Jedi High Council whose wisdom and judgment were legendary.”
-- Star Wars Fact Files

“Perhaps only Master Mace Windu equaled him in skill and reputation.”
-- Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

“Mace Windu is the most powerful warrior on the Jedi Council; his feats in battle are legendary.”
-- Obi-Wan Prima Guide

“Mace Windu is a powerhouse of a Jedi. He is the strongest and toughest of them all.”
-- Obi-Wan Prima Guide

These are all quotes circa TPM that state Windu has power and skill on par with, (or, as LOTL alluded to, above) Yoda. Which one of these do you dispute is referring to those two measures? Because from where I'm sitting it's pretty clear.

July 30th 2019, 4:07 am

You tell them DSO. Mace disrespect is intolerable and inexcusable under any circumstances

July 30th 2019, 4:13 am

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:

Meatpants wrote:We're talking about TPM Windu. So let's throw away all of Lucas' quotes, all of Gillard's quotes, and all quotes/showings post-TPM era. All the quotes TPM era are either (1) - being considered on par with Yoda [subjective]; (2) - could equally considered to be referring to power on the Council, respect, or any other trait other than overall combative power and capabilities. The only TPM quote that I can remember placing him actually on par with Yoda combatively comes from Fact Files, claiming he has "powers on par with Yoda" - the only source to mention powers specifically. And as well know, Fact Files is IU, and therefore subject to interpretation. So no, Windu is not "on par" combatively speaking with Yoda in TPM, and there's no way to prove that - unless there's Lucas quotes from the time that establishes him as such.

Alright, let's look at some quotes.

“Though Yoda’s junior by hundreds of years, Mace Windu was considered Yoda’s equal in terms of ability, insight, and command.”
-- Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

"Mace Windu was one of the most respected figures on the Jedi Council, his power and prestige matched only by Master Yoda."
--Star Wars: Jedi Legacy

“A respected Jedi with powers on par with those of the venerable Yoda, Mace Windu was a senior member of the Jedi High Council whose wisdom and judgment were legendary.”
-- Star Wars Fact Files

“Perhaps only Master Mace Windu equaled him in skill and reputation.”
-- Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

“Mace Windu is the most powerful warrior on the Jedi Council; his feats in battle are legendary.”
-- Obi-Wan Prima Guide

“Mace Windu is a powerhouse of a Jedi. He is the strongest and toughest of them all.”
-- Obi-Wan Prima Guide

These are all quotes circa TPM that state Windu has power and skill on par with, (or, as LOTL alluded to, above) Yoda. Which one of these do you dispute is referring to those two measures? Because from where I'm sitting it's pretty clear.

I recall somebody mentioning that a quote like that is also present in Cloak of Deception

July 30th 2019, 4:36 am

“Though Yoda’s junior by hundreds of years, Mace Windu was considered Yoda’s equal in terms of ability, insight, and command.”
-- Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

Key word = “considered”; I’m not interested in what others consider Windu to be, since we have a plethora of quotes stating Jedi Dooku is “considered” the best swordsman in the temple:

Count Dooku was possibly the greatest swordsman at the Jedi Temple
-- Star Wars: The Official Figurine Collection

“Many thought he was the deadliest of all the Jedi in combat”
-- Star Wars: The Official Figurine Collection

“He was a remarkable teacher and, of all those in the Temple, arguably the most skilled with a lightsaber.
-- Star Wars: The Official Figurine Collection

Two can play at that game. And there’s actually more ones that I can’t find the source names for right now.

"Mace Windu was one of the most respected figures on the Jedi Council, his power and prestige matched only by Master Yoda."
--Star Wars: Jedi Legacy

The quote could just as equally be talking about power on the council, especially since the topic of the sentence is respect on the Council. Even if it’s referring to actual power, it still doesn’t mean he’s equal to Yoda. In the TPM novel Qui-Gon “meets his match” when he fights Darth Maul. It’s the same here: Yoda matches Windu’s power just as Maul matches Qui-Gon’s power - it doesn’t mean literal equality in power. It’s also a common term, meeting your match means facing someone better than you.

“A respected Jedi with powers on par with those of the venerable Yoda, Mace Windu was a senior member of the Jedi High Council whose wisdom and judgment were legendary.”
-- Star Wars Fact Files

Fact Files in IU and therefore subjective. There’s another quote from an OOU source that’s literally the same exact without “with powers”, adding onto the idea that the Fact Files quote is bunk.

“Perhaps only Master Mace Windu equaled him in skill and reputation.”
-- Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

“Perhaps” only questions it, it’s not an affirmative that they’re equally skilled. Note that it refers only to skill and reputation; so even if it was interpreted your way, skill doesn’t mean anything. You can be a better duelist while being less skilled. So either way you put it, it doesn’t work for you.

“Mace Windu is the most powerful warrior on the Jedi Council; his feats in battle are legendary.”
-- Obi-Wan Prima Guide

“Mace Windu is a powerhouse of a Jedi. He is the strongest and toughest of them all.”
-- Obi-Wan Prima Guide

These refer to gameplay mechanics.

July 30th 2019, 6:27 am

@Ziggy Let's not call people idiots. Keep it civil, guys.

July 30th 2019, 6:32 am

YousufLatham wrote:

Azronger wrote:There's conflicting info on this. One quote says Windu can't beat Maul on his own, but another quote has Jedi Dooku above Maul, with Jedi Dooku being beneath Windu. One quote also says Maul is perhaps the second greatest duelist in the galaxy behind Sidious as of TPM. I think it'd be a great fight regardless of the victor.

What? How?

48 - TPM Maul vs TPM Windu - Page 2 Maul_b10

July 30th 2019, 7:26 am

@Ziggy Mace was holding back when he briefly duelled Ventress. He had no intention of killing her. And even then Ventress admitted defeat and retreated in a matter of seconds.

July 30th 2019, 9:56 am

Windu should win but Maul has a decent chance. Mace's power growth through the Clone Wars is insane. Maul pretty much stayed the same.

July 30th 2019, 4:43 pm

DarthSkywanker0 wrote:This is obviously a concern in methodology, but my primary goal isn't to fulfill some ridiculous notion of a holistic quota, but rather to create an empirical ranking.

Cool.

Strict adherence to quotes that pre-date all Clone Wars material - which is the majority of PT content - are a lolworthy way to conclude .... (your subjective idea) of an empirical ranking.

But by all means carry on.

You can the use the morsels suggesting Maul is > Yoda to the confuse the path to enlightenment further.

The best way to do that is through strict adherence to quotes as they lack the ambiguity of feats.

The ambiguity of cereal box quotes claiming Yoda = mace isn't in question.

Their authority and credibility however...

For one, where's the basis ?

They aren't derived from a census that LFL people had on power levels - an idea which Chee refuted himself - claiming there was no council of deliberators agreeing upon an eMprICaL rAnKiNg for Sith and Jedi.

Q:

I don't know for sure but I would imagine that there are no hard and fast lists about which Jedi and Sith are the most powerful. "Most Powerful" would have lots of different variables to take into account.

Leland Chee :

Agreed, us continuity people don't deal in absolutes. Only Sith deal in absolutes.
With that said, we'll often need to come up with stats or rankings for gameplay purposes. These are for gameplay purposes only. Stunt coordinato Nick Gillard had his own lightsaber ranking, but even the use of this ranking system is limited because it was only the major characters from the prequel films that he ranked. We never expanded on that ranking system.

So they aren't part of a hidden tier list, nor are they reflections of Lucas' mind.

Gillard would know... having received the only thing close to an empirical ranking from Lucas himself. Which is ironically referenced above and had Mace only bordering tier 8/9 compared to Sidious and Yoda's solid 9 for Revenge of the Sith.

So where exactly are these do quotes claiming TPM Yoda = TPM Mace take their basis from?

By deductive reasoning, I can only say they're subjective opinions of the author's who themselves are interpreting the content. And given that all these quotes for Mace predate AOTC, The Clone Wars, Revenge of the Sith - where we actually see these characters demonstrate their power - they can all be tossed.

In their stead we can cite newer sources such as Dark Rendevouz - "perhaps Mace was Dooku's equal on neutral ground' among newer events that actually happened in the lore. This as oppose to religious methodology found in biblical times favouring blind faith in dated quotes, Harrison

But as you are a Jew, I understand why clinging to the old scribes is of paramount importance.

That being said, I'll do my best to respond to these narrative counterpoints.

48 - TPM Maul vs TPM Windu - Page 2 Maxresdefault

Proof that spar is an accurate proxy of a real duel.

Because the examples of competitive spars often reflect the outcomes of real duels.

Dooku is hard-pressed to beat Grievous in their spars (Labyrinth of Evil). Mace - Dooku's equal on neutral ground at that point, - is clearly hard-pressed to do the same.

Yoda destroyed three armed council masters while he himself was unarmed. Sidious - who is Yoda's peer on neutral ground destroyed 3 Council masters instantly with Mace to back them up.

If Dooku and Yoda were the only people who scored victories against Mace, despite him probably having countless spars with council-tier ilk, then it means there was no room for those below him to cause an upset. Giving credence to the correlation of sparring and real duels.

To conclude my answer, I don't see why spars shouldn't be proxy for real duels, when the one caveat feasibly differentiating them is that either participant might hold back (mitigated by use of training sabers) . But you already admitted might be a problem for Mace in a real duel:

Huh, a Jedi holding back who would have thought it possible.

So.....

I mean hell it was rumored that Plo beat Yoda in a spar.

Given that Plo Koon was one of the trio humiliated by Yoda in the unarmed demonstration I refferenced, it seems we can put that rumour to bed.

All that's left to ask is which bottom-of-the-barrel source is this from?

Dooku could not replicate this performance against Yoda.

48 - TPM Maul vs TPM Windu - Page 2 Giphy

Zig : Dooku beat Mace in spars

Darthskywanker : Dooku could not replicate this performance against Yoda

....

*Doing your best

Given you have failed to prove any of them I shoout of the kindness of my heart, I'll provide a nice quote(I have no interest in having this debate on your terms.) TPM Mace is stated to be above Jedi Dooku as a duelist.

Under Yoda's tutelage, Dooku became one of the greatest sword masters the Order had ever produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself.

Source: The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection #48

1) Eclipsing Dooku wouldn't preclude them from being on the same tier as Jedi, nor would it preclude TPM Windu from being Darth Tyranus' lesser as a sith Lord. Both are a tier away from Yoda, which is the point I was making anyway.

2) Eclipsing Dooku wouldn't preclude him from loosing a fight, including spars a few times out of ten, so there isn't a contradiction

3) No where in the sentence is Mace capped to his TPM iteration, so well done for fudging your own evidence.

Not sure which duel you are referring to. I'd rather see your logic first before chasing after a phantom.

It's a well known fight, so a paltry respect thread skim for either character should give you all the info you need. As stated before. He failed to incap Ventress. And the biblical source quotes you swear fealty by claimed he needed all his power just to make her flee.

I'd hardly call the small clash a stalemate given the duel never finishes, and Mace manages to knock him off balance.

Said small clash involved Grievous eventually adapting to Mace's unfamiliar style as the fight progressed, matching him blow for blow, with the latter opting to use a Force push on a target who couldn't move in that environment nor could respond with force power in kind, just to BFR.

To be frank, I don't particularly care. Feats are a very nebulous source of information.

The outliers are obvious enough for a smart person to wade through. The true difference is that feats are more narratively important. They are events that actually happened within the mythos. Whether as 3rd person sources, especially those dubbing any individual Jedi "most powerful" seem to just be commenting on and interpreting said sources.

We will likely reach an impasse here as there is no objective methodology in a fictional setting. But, more and more people are switching towards my system so I suggest you hop on board.

Why would I do that when stomping every single one of you is much more fun?

Bandwagoning with retards doesn't befit someone who debates SW once in a blue Moon.

July 30th 2019, 5:11 pm

Cringe