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MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

on September 18th 2019, 7:48 am
I reiterate my vote for Vol
Blade_of_Dorin
Blade_of_Dorin

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on September 18th 2019, 10:16 am
When's Part 4 gonna come out?
xolthol
xolthol

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on September 18th 2019, 2:50 pm
Interresting argument for Unu but I still think that in order to work this arguments should have been put first against Sidious.
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
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on September 19th 2019, 5:05 am
@xolthol wrote:Interresting argument for Unu but I still think that in order to work this arguments should have been put first against Sidious.

I don't see how that would invalidate the argument vs. Valkorion, and those points for UnuThul could be more strongly countered with points for Sidious, such as Force storms, walking nexus that rips apart space-time, etc.
Deronn_Solo
Deronn_Solo

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on September 19th 2019, 10:03 am
Interesting.

Since no one wants to step to the plate Imma reply to Elm's Valkorion V 'Thul post when I get off from work.
xolthol
xolthol

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on September 19th 2019, 2:49 pm
@The Ellimist wrote:
I don't see how that would invalidate the argument vs. Valkorion, and those points for UnuThul could be more strongly countered with points for Sidious, such as Force storms, walking nexus that rips apart space-time, etc.

Because to my point:

  • the gap of power between Sheev and Valk isn't really big
  • the trillions of beings under Unu control is more impressive than Byss
  • if Unu is a real threat to Luke (up to the point that most of IU characters including Luke himself) didn't think that Luke can win, knowing that Luke had grown since DE this seems to put Unu above Sheev also.
  • we didn't have some "raw power" feat from Sheev comparable to bending turbolaser (I didn't think that Lusankya was a TK feat)
  • The esoteric abilities from Sheev aren't much better than the one from Valk


There are the main reason for me not to vote for Unu (but basically, a similar point can be made for Vol, Reborn Krayt and Nyax)
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

on September 19th 2019, 6:35 pm
Currently there is a three-way tie between Darish Vol, Darth Plagueis, and Darth Krayt to oppose Valkorion in the run-off. 

@The Ellimist
@HellfireUnit

Given you two voted for Yoda and UnuThul, are you interested in switching your vote to one of the four in contention? Also, other members are welcome to vote as well.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

on September 19th 2019, 6:46 pm
Thanks for the reminder, I'll go with Plagueis.
Azronger
Azronger
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on September 20th 2019, 3:15 pm
I'm going with either Plagueis or Krayt depending on who garners more votes in the end.
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

on September 21st 2019, 5:03 am
@xolthol wrote:
Because to my point:

Even if UnuThul > DE Sidious, why would that invalidate UnuThul > Valkorion if you think DE Sidious > Valkorion? Wouldn't it make the case stronger?

the gap of power between Sheev and Valk isn't really big

See above; how does that counter the argument? Are you saying I'm applying a double standard to Sidious and Valkorion? Even if that were accurate, how is that relevant to whether UnuThul is stronger than Valkorion?

Are you saying that my argument can't work because it leads to an implausible outcome (UnuThul > DE Sidious)? You say that Sidious and Valk are comparable anyway, so why would that be more ridiculous to the point of being clearly wrong?
xolthol
xolthol

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on September 21st 2019, 5:34 pm
@The Ellimist wrote:
@xolthol wrote:
Because to my point:

Even if UnuThul > DE Sidious, why would that invalidate UnuThul > Valkorion if you think DE Sidious > Valkorion? Wouldn't it make the case stronger?

the gap of power between Sheev and Valk isn't really big

See above; how does that counter the argument? Are you saying I'm applying a double standard to Sidious and Valkorion? Even if that were accurate, how is that relevant to whether UnuThul is stronger than Valkorion?

Are you saying that my argument can't work because it leads to an implausible outcome (UnuThul > DE Sidious)? You say that Sidious and Valk are comparable anyway, so why would that be more ridiculous to the point of being clearly wrong?

No, I'm saying that because we decide to put Sidious at n°2 in this list, in order to keep our top 15 coherent, I prefer to keep Valk as the n°3. If we can re-vote for the n° 2, I will be happy to put Unu or Vol or even Nyax.
DC77 (Reborn)
DC77 (Reborn)
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

on September 21st 2019, 7:23 pm
So, you're not going to vote for Unu, despite not addressing Elm's argument and seemingly agreeing with it because... you want Sheev to get put beneath Unu as well? You can hide that under wanting coherence all you damn well please but we all know it's just bias in favour of Valk/bias against Sheev. TOR supporters want the 2 as close as possible, so putting somebody above Valk but below Sheev won't do at all in your mind. Are you having a laugh?

OT-Elm's case for Unu was actually pretty convincing but I won't vote in favour of it because Unu doesn't have a shot at winning and the other candidates are... less than deserving compared to Valk.
DarthAnt66
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

on September 21st 2019, 8:07 pm
Lol calm down
Blade_of_Dorin
Blade_of_Dorin

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on September 21st 2019, 8:40 pm
Unchained!DC
IdrisianGraecus
IdrisianGraecus

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

on September 21st 2019, 9:11 pm
Vong DC
xolthol
xolthol

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on September 22nd 2019, 1:37 am
@DC77 (Reborn) wrote:So, you're not going to vote for Unu, despite not addressing Elm's argument and seemingly agreeing with it because... you want Sheev to get put beneath Unu as well? You can hide that under wanting coherence all you damn well please but we all know it's just bias in favour of Valk/bias against Sheev. TOR supporters want the 2 as close as possible, so putting somebody above Valk but below Sheev won't do at all in your mind. Are you having a laugh?

OT-Elm's case for Unu was actually pretty convincing but I won't vote in favour of it because Unu doesn't have a shot at winning and the other candidates are... less than deserving compared to Valk.
★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 4 2208776636 ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 4 2668642404  ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 4 4147650925 ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 4 1668617588   ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 4 2266747095 ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 4 3344068304 ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 4 3750555731  (Me after reading what you write @DC77 (Reborn))

I just want our list to be coherent. But if you except my "coherency excuse", yes I mostly agree with what Elm say. ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 4 39523600
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

on September 22nd 2019, 2:14 am
@The Ellimist wrote:UnuThul vs. Valkorion comparison:

Who should be stronger on paper? -> while Valkorion has absorbed thousands of Sith and millions-billions of people on Ziost, a lot of that likely went into extending his lifespan and then reviving himself. In either case, it hardly compares to UnuThul's trillions of beings. You could argue that Valkorion has had greater time to actualize the power / more mastery, and you may be right - but at best, it's a wash.

Who has better "raw" feats? -> bending turbolasers >>> anything Valkorion has done using raw TK/etc.

Who has better combat feats? -> UnuThul was essentially beating Luke before Luke went all-out. Even a "holding back" Luke is arguably stronger than the Outlander/etc., so this is quite likely a wash or a point for UnuThul. This is especially the case given that characters IU did not seem to think that Luke could defeat UnuThul, potentially placing UnuThul above manifestations of Luke's power that had been seen by others.

Who has better "esoteric" feats? -> clearly Valkorion, but frankly a lot of people seem to think that Ziost wasn't a ritual despite the 1) precedence of Valkorion using rituals, 2) precedence of surface-busting rituals, and 3) parallels to Nathema and the galaxy ritual. Some people argue that only the absorption part of Nathema was ritualistic, but the destruction part of the galaxy ritual would've definitely been ritualistic too.

It can easily be argued that "esoteric" feats which have not been properly linked to raw power are not as good of an indicator of combat ability as some of the other categories.

If number of individuals drained was the basis for Vitiate's power amps, then Nihilus roflgodstomps him. But that's blatantly false. As is your line of logic. Vitiate didn't just consume 8,000 Sith Lords. He drained all reality across the entire planet, creating the greatest DS nexus in the mythos, and all of that power was assimilated into his being. An act of power that by itself was beyond the comprehensive scope of Meetra who killed Nihilus and knew the measure of his power.

That is a false equivalence from the start. Tenebrae's feats utterly dwarf anything UnuThul has.
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
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on September 22nd 2019, 4:23 am
@xolthol wrote:
@The Ellimist wrote:
@xolthol wrote:
Because to my point:

Even if UnuThul > DE Sidious, why would that invalidate UnuThul > Valkorion if you think DE Sidious > Valkorion? Wouldn't it make the case stronger?

the gap of power between Sheev and Valk isn't really big

See above; how does that counter the argument? Are you saying I'm applying a double standard to Sidious and Valkorion? Even if that were accurate, how is that relevant to whether UnuThul is stronger than Valkorion?

Are you saying that my argument can't work because it leads to an implausible outcome (UnuThul > DE Sidious)? You say that Sidious and Valk are comparable anyway, so why would that be more ridiculous to the point of being clearly wrong?

No, I'm saying that because we decide to put Sidious at n°2 in this list, in order to keep our top 15 coherent, I prefer to keep Valk as the n°3. If we can re-vote for the n° 2, I will be happy to put Unu or Vol or even Nyax.

By that logic then, any argument that you use to put Valkorion over UnuThul has to fail to apply to Palpatine or Luke.

Anyway I'm not sure if the solution to having one wrong placement (if it were a wrong placement) is to conform everything else to that precedent and potentially get everything wrong entirely.
DC77 (Reborn)
DC77 (Reborn)
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on September 22nd 2019, 5:36 am
@Xolthol You can spam emotes, do you want a medal?

Also:

By that logic then, any argument that you use to put Valkorion over UnuThul has to fail to apply to Palpatine or Luke.

Anyway I'm not sure if the solution to having one wrong placement (if it were a wrong placement) is to conform everything else to that precedent and potentially get everything wrong entirely.

This.
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
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on September 22nd 2019, 5:41 am
Remember civility rules please.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
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on September 26th 2019, 3:00 pm
bump
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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on September 26th 2019, 9:35 pm
VALKORION AND DARTH PLAGUEIS ARE IN THE RUNNING FOR #3.

All votes for Valkorion (12) and Darth Plagueis (3) will stay. Anyone who hasn't voted or voted for another character may choose between the two. Voting ends in 48 hours.

LIST OF VOTES:

Spoiler:
VALKORION (12):

- KingofBlades
- dark_globe
- Praxis
- DarthAnt66
- DC77 (Reborn)
- NotAA3
- IdrisianGraecus
- Gianfi
- DoA
- xolthol
- Deronn_Solo
- LadyKulvax

DARTH PLAGUEIS (3):

- Azronger
- CuckedCurry
- HellfireUnit

PLEASE CHANGE YOUR VOTE:

- @PeraltaEagle45
- @Shioz
- @The Ellimist
- @MasterCilghal
- @Vicious Madang


Last edited by DarthAnt66 on September 27th 2019, 7:20 am; edited 1 time in total
PeraltaEagle45
PeraltaEagle45

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on September 27th 2019, 12:36 am
Ugh. Fine. Valk.
CuckedCurry
CuckedCurry

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on September 27th 2019, 2:46 am
I voted for Plagueis too
Azronger
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on September 27th 2019, 4:54 am
I voted for Plagueis as well.
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