★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

xolthol wrote:Interresting argument for Unu but I still think that in order to work this arguments should have been put first against Sidious.

The Ellimist wrote:

I don't see how that would invalidate the argument vs. Valkorion, and those points for UnuThul could be more strongly countered with points for Sidious, such as Force storms, walking nexus that rips apart space-time, etc.

• the gap of power between Sheev and Valk isn't really big
  
• the trillions of beings under Unu control is more impressive than Byss
  
• if Unu is a real threat to Luke (up to the point that most of IU characters including Luke himself) didn't think that Luke can win, knowing that Luke had grown since DE this seems to put Unu above Sheev also.
  
• we didn't have some "raw power" feat from Sheev comparable to bending turbolaser (I didn't think that Lusankya was a TK feat)
  
• The esoteric abilities from Sheev aren't much better than the one from Valk
  

xolthol wrote:
Because to my point:

the gap of power between Sheev and Valk isn't really big

The Ellimist wrote:

xolthol wrote:
Because to my point:

Even if UnuThul > DE Sidious, why would that invalidate UnuThul > Valkorion if you think DE Sidious > Valkorion? Wouldn't it make the case stronger?

the gap of power between Sheev and Valk isn't really big

See above; how does that counter the argument? Are you saying I'm applying a double standard to Sidious and Valkorion? Even if that were accurate, how is that relevant to whether UnuThul is stronger than Valkorion?

Are you saying that my argument can't work because it leads to an implausible outcome (UnuThul > DE Sidious)? You say that Sidious and Valk are comparable anyway, so why would that be more ridiculous to the point of being clearly wrong?

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:So, you're not going to vote for Unu, despite not addressing Elm's argument and seemingly agreeing with it because... you want Sheev to get put beneath Unu as well? You can hide that under wanting coherence all you damn well please but we all know it's just bias in favour of Valk/bias against Sheev. TOR supporters want the 2 as close as possible, so putting somebody above Valk but below Sheev won't do at all in your mind. Are you having a laugh?

OT-Elm's case for Unu was actually pretty convincing but I won't vote in favour of it because Unu doesn't have a shot at winning and the other candidates are... less than deserving compared to Valk.

The Ellimist wrote:UnuThul vs. Valkorion comparison:

Who should be stronger on paper? -> while Valkorion has absorbed thousands of Sith and millions-billions of people on Ziost, a lot of that likely went into extending his lifespan and then reviving himself. In either case, it hardly compares to UnuThul's trillions of beings. You could argue that Valkorion has had greater time to actualize the power / more mastery, and you may be right - but at best, it's a wash.

Who has better "raw" feats? -> bending turbolasers >>> anything Valkorion has done using raw TK/etc.

Who has better combat feats? -> UnuThul was essentially beating Luke before Luke went all-out. Even a "holding back" Luke is arguably stronger than the Outlander/etc., so this is quite likely a wash or a point for UnuThul. This is especially the case given that characters IU did not seem to think that Luke could defeat UnuThul, potentially placing UnuThul above manifestations of Luke's power that had been seen by others.

Who has better "esoteric" feats? -> clearly Valkorion, but frankly a lot of people seem to think that Ziost wasn't a ritual despite the 1) precedence of Valkorion using rituals, 2) precedence of surface-busting rituals, and 3) parallels to Nathema and the galaxy ritual. Some people argue that only the absorption part of Nathema was ritualistic, but the destruction part of the galaxy ritual would've definitely been ritualistic too.

It can easily be argued that "esoteric" feats which have not been properly linked to raw power are not as good of an indicator of combat ability as some of the other categories.

xolthol wrote:

The Ellimist wrote:

xolthol wrote:
Because to my point:

Even if UnuThul > DE Sidious, why would that invalidate UnuThul > Valkorion if you think DE Sidious > Valkorion? Wouldn't it make the case stronger?

the gap of power between Sheev and Valk isn't really big

See above; how does that counter the argument? Are you saying I'm applying a double standard to Sidious and Valkorion? Even if that were accurate, how is that relevant to whether UnuThul is stronger than Valkorion?

Are you saying that my argument can't work because it leads to an implausible outcome (UnuThul > DE Sidious)? You say that Sidious and Valk are comparable anyway, so why would that be more ridiculous to the point of being clearly wrong?

No, I'm saying that because we decide to put Sidious at n°2 in this list, in order to keep our top 15 coherent, I prefer to keep Valk as the n°3. If we can re-vote for the n° 2, I will be happy to put Unu or Vol or even Nyax.

By that logic then, any argument that you use to put Valkorion over UnuThul has to fail to apply to Palpatine or Luke.

Anyway I'm not sure if the solution to having one wrong placement (if it were a wrong placement) is to conform everything else to that precedent and potentially get everything wrong entirely.

Spoiler: