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xolthol
xolthol
Level Five
Level Five

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

September 8th 2019, 11:57 am
The Ellimist wrote:Why the following have cases over Valkorion:

  • UnuThul - combined potential of trillions of beings > 8000 Sith Lords and maybe what fraction of Ziost went into extra power, plus he has bending turbolasers and hype as characters imply he's stronger than what they think Luke is
  • Lord Nyax - his performance against Luke has better scaling than anything Valkorion has
  • Lord Vol - he has scaling from full power Luke and his TP feat against Abeloth is beyond anything Valkorion has
  • Plagueis - his unbalancing feat is insane, he was a big enough threat to cause the Chosen One, it seems like the Force had to intervene to prevent him from TP'ing everyone in the galaxy and creating a Forceful being, he defended against Sidious's lightning just using midichlorian manipulation and only died because his breathing apparatus failed
  • Yoda - he scales above Plagueis in sheer power
  • Krayt - Apocalypse scaling


For UnuThul, Nyax, Vol and Krayt the same argument could have been said for the second place of the tournament (ie versus Sheev)... 
For Yoda and Plagueis, they didn't impress me as Valkorion. Prime Yoda is something too vague to put him above Valk. Plagueis is wank way to high to my point.
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
Level Five
Level Five

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

September 8th 2019, 12:00 pm
xolthol wrote:For UnuThul, Nyax, Vol and Krayt the same argument could have been said for the second place of the tournament (ie versus Sheev)... 

Possibly, but Sidious has IMHO better feats than Valkorion.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator
Moderator

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

September 8th 2019, 12:21 pm
xolthol wrote:
The Ellimist wrote:Why the following have cases over Valkorion:

  • UnuThul - combined potential of trillions of beings > 8000 Sith Lords and maybe what fraction of Ziost went into extra power, plus he has bending turbolasers and hype as characters imply he's stronger than what they think Luke is
  • Lord Nyax - his performance against Luke has better scaling than anything Valkorion has
  • Lord Vol - he has scaling from full power Luke and his TP feat against Abeloth is beyond anything Valkorion has
  • Plagueis - his unbalancing feat is insane, he was a big enough threat to cause the Chosen One, it seems like the Force had to intervene to prevent him from TP'ing everyone in the galaxy and creating a Forceful being, he defended against Sidious's lightning just using midichlorian manipulation and only died because his breathing apparatus failed
  • Yoda - he scales above Plagueis in sheer power
  • Krayt - Apocalypse scaling


For UnuThul, Nyax, Vol and Krayt the same argument could have been said for the second place of the tournament (ie versus Sheev)... 
For Yoda and Plagueis, they didn't impress me as Valkorion. Prime Yoda is something too vague to put him above Valk. Plagueis is wank way to high to my point.

Those arguments for Nyax and Krayt were raised against Sheev and were dealt with. Vol would also fall under the same argument as Krayt.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
Level Six

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

September 8th 2019, 12:24 pm
Valkorion wank is too high, lol. Noone's been making a case for him and present false feats. Valk is overrated af.
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

September 8th 2019, 12:48 pm
Says the guy who has Vader over Revan.
Jake
Jake
Level One
Level One

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

September 8th 2019, 12:50 pm
Valkorion
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
Level Six

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

September 8th 2019, 12:52 pm
Dude, don't let me start on your wank stuff. I never wank anything, and willing to debate Post Suit Vader and I may be wrong.. You put Revan equal with Yoda, which is utter bullcrap.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator
Moderator

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

September 8th 2019, 12:55 pm
I sense tension between you two, @HellfireUnit @IdrisianGraecus. Let's unwind a bit.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
Level Six

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

September 8th 2019, 12:57 pm
Nah, I like IdrianGraecus. He's a good kid.
xolthol
xolthol
Level Five
Level Five

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

September 9th 2019, 4:38 pm
The Ellimist wrote:
xolthol wrote:For UnuThul, Nyax, Vol and Krayt the same argument could have been said for the second place of the tournament (ie versus Sheev)... 

Possibly, but Sidious has IMHO better feats than Valkorion.

Agree with this... Just explaining that if the different argument that you provide for unu, vol, krayt and Nyax didn't work against Sheev, I didn't think that they work for Valk either
Deronn_Solo
Deronn_Solo

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

September 10th 2019, 3:16 pm
Little bit off-topic, but somewhat relevant to the conversation, but does Sidious "most powerful" quotes apply to Sith that came after him like Vol and Krayt? Or, are the only before and up to his time?

Just curious.
Vicious Madang
Vicious Madang

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

September 10th 2019, 3:21 pm
Those statements seem to work for before and up to. However Sidious has one to place him as the “most powerful modern Sith” or something of a similar wording. Which is what you’d use for Sith after him.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
Level Six

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

September 10th 2019, 3:40 pm
Deronn_Solo wrote:Little bit off-topic, but somewhat relevant to the conversation, but does Sidious "most powerful" quotes apply to Sith that came after him like Vol and Krayt? Or, are the only before and up to his time?

Just curious.

The quote has been made in Revenge of the Sith therefore it only includes previous Sith. However RotS Sidious is far from his prime version.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
Level Six

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

September 10th 2019, 3:44 pm
Also before his demise, Plagueis was the strongest Sith ever existed. That applies anyone who came before him.

Darth Plagueis wrote:Darth Plagueis was the most powerful Sith Lord ever lived.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator
Moderator

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

September 10th 2019, 3:47 pm
Deronn_Solo wrote:Little bit off-topic, but somewhat relevant to the conversation, but does Sidious "most powerful" quotes apply to Sith that came after him like Vol and Krayt? Or, are the only before and up to his time?

Just curious.

There's one specific quote that applies to all Sith after him. Some others are debatable since you could argue out-of-universe statements aren't bound by in-universe chronology, meaning Sidious being the most powerful Sith Lord in history would literally mean in history, which does extend past his lifetime. However, I'm not sure on my stance on that argument.
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

September 11th 2019, 9:49 am
Superiority quotes like Sidious' are honestly dumb, given that they apply to over thousands of individuals. By that logic, SWTOR Vitiate << ROTS Sidious, which is honestly complete, and utter bullshit.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
Level Six

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

September 11th 2019, 10:42 am
Except that RoTS Sidious > any incarnation of Vitiate and he would stomp him. A guy like Vitiate who can barely react to T3 and lightsaber throws would instantly get speedblitzed by Sidious. And no, he cannot slow down the time and that argument was debunked ages ago.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator
Moderator

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

September 11th 2019, 11:59 am
IdrisianGraecus wrote:Superiority quotes like Sidious' are honestly dumb, given that they apply to over thousands of individuals. By that logic, SWTOR Vitiate << ROTS Sidious, which is honestly complete, and utter bullshit.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/196/Argument-from-Incredulity
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Three
Level Three

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

September 11th 2019, 12:10 pm
HellfireUnit wrote:Except that RoTS Sidious > any incarnation of Vitiate and he would stomp him. A guy like Vitiate who can barely react to T3 and lightsaber throws would instantly get speedblitzed by Sidious. And no, he cannot slow down the time and that argument was debunked ages ago.
Severe lowballing. Novel Vitiate>>SF Malak who would destroy T3 with a thought. The only reason what happened in the fight happened was due to Vitiate being completely focused on eliminating Revan. He most likely thought everyone else there not named Revan were ants compared to him and ignored them completely leading him to lower his guard. Also this doesn't even represent Swtor Vitiate who has 300 years of growth after this point.
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
Moderator
Moderator

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

September 16th 2019, 8:52 am
A few days left for this. Bump.
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

September 16th 2019, 8:55 am
Valk should take this, given that most of his remaining rivals (UnuThul, Plagueis, Yoda, etc) have nothing on the level of the Ziost drain, or ragdolling Unchained Vaylin, Arcann, and the Outlander at once.

All three of them scale to a level of stomping any of the SWTOR protags, which is especially impressive given some of their feats & scalings, like the Vivicar scaling, the HoT defeating a weakened Voice, Nox backhanding Thanaton's lightning, accidentally sending him flying into a wall, etc.
xolthol
xolthol
Level Five
Level Five

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

September 16th 2019, 7:20 pm
IdrisianGraecus wrote:Valk should take this, given that most of his remaining rivals (UnuThul, Plagueis, Yoda, etc) have nothing on the level of the Ziost drain, or ragdolling Unchained Vaylin, Arcann, and the Outlander at once.

All three of them scale to a level of stomping any of the SWTOR protags, which is especially impressive given some of their feats & scalings, like the Vivicar scaling, the HoT defeating a weakened Voice, Nox backhanding Thanaton's lightning, accidentally sending him flying into a wall, etc.
Globally this.
No Hate Speech
No Hate Speech

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

September 18th 2019, 7:03 am
Adi Gallia
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

September 18th 2019, 7:06 am
That moment that somebody calls Adi Gallia > Valk, Plagueis, Yoda, UnuThul, etc.

The Ellimist
The Ellimist
Level Five
Level Five

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #3 - Valkorion

September 18th 2019, 7:12 am
UnuThul vs. Valkorion comparison:

Who should be stronger on paper? -> while Valkorion has absorbed thousands of Sith and millions-billions of people on Ziost, a lot of that likely went into extending his lifespan and then reviving himself. In either case, it hardly compares to UnuThul's trillions of beings. You could argue that Valkorion has had greater time to actualize the power / more mastery, and you may be right - but at best, it's a wash.

Who has better "raw" feats? -> bending turbolasers >>> anything Valkorion has done using raw TK/etc.

Who has better combat feats? -> UnuThul was essentially beating Luke before Luke went all-out. Even a "holding back" Luke is arguably stronger than the Outlander/etc., so this is quite likely a wash or a point for UnuThul. This is especially the case given that characters IU did not seem to think that Luke could defeat UnuThul, potentially placing UnuThul above manifestations of Luke's power that had been seen by others.

Who has better "esoteric" feats? -> clearly Valkorion, but frankly a lot of people seem to think that Ziost wasn't a ritual despite the 1) precedence of Valkorion using rituals, 2) precedence of surface-busting rituals, and 3) parallels to Nathema and the galaxy ritual. Some people argue that only the absorption part of Nathema was ritualistic, but the destruction part of the galaxy ritual would've definitely been ritualistic too.

It can easily be argued that "esoteric" feats which have not been properly linked to raw power are not as good of an indicator of combat ability as some of the other categories.
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