SS - Lord Hoth (Vaelias) vs Odan Urr (Darthor)

(Insert Poster)

Rules

The debate follows all formal and informal policies of Lucas Licensing as of September 2012, including the internal continuity rankings of the Holocron. The rules include but are not limited to, specific parts of the following: http://www.st-v-sw.net/CanonWars/SWCanonquotes2.html#Licensing. In addition:

- Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case will be made within the debate itself.
- Feats take precedent over directly contradicted statements. A feat indisputably showing X is greater than Y overrides a statement stating Y is greater than X.

Lord Hoth is as he was shown in Darth Bane Path of Destruction and Odan Urr is in his composite form. Quantifying his prime form will be up to the debaters

Tentatively going with 3 posts per side, character count and other details will be decided later

Introduction:

In this opener I'll be going over 3 main things.

Part 1: Urr's AP scale:

How Urr's scaling above the Thon feat of containing Ambria is extremely impressive and infinitely above whatever the fuck Hoth has done (absolutely nothing).

Part 2: Urr's modus operandi:

How he's going to start off in fights using techniques Hoth likely has no answers for, and how his knowledge and telepathy gains him an unique edge in combat.

Part 3: Urr's scaling:

I'll keep it simple:
Urr > Freedon Nadd >> Naga Sadow > Tenebrous >>>>>>>>>>> Darth Bane >> Lord Hoth (there will be more links).
If all 3 of these arguments hold to the end of the debate, the conclusion will be pretty simple. Urr's scalings and feats are wayyy above a sub Sylvar fodder in Hoth, his modus operandi is likely to one-shot Hoth off the bat, and he scales infinitely above Hoth in overall combatively abilities.
NOTE:
Because Vaelias is obviously a valiant opposer of using stats as a method in debates, I will oblige for this debate and avoid using stats unless absolutely necessary.
With that aside, respect the abilities of Odan Urr, Grand Master of the Jedi Order, Bane of the Sith, murderer of the filthy fodder Lord Hoth.

Section 1: Ambria scaling:

to establish the potency of the Ambria ritual, it is stated to have called upon more force powers than ANY INDIVIDUAL EVER DID BEFORE on the Jedi record:

Source: TOTJ Companion

The ritual is further added by the spirit of the dead Sith Lords:

Source: TOTJ Companion

Thon however was able to not only "easily repel" the attack of the insane amount of DS release from the ritual + the spirits, but also "ensnare his enemies in a lattice-work of light-side energy", an attack probably noted as force light:

Source: TOTJ Companion

Not only this, it was implied he kept the Sith spirits in the lake "prisoners", which might be the reason he stayed on Ambria to train his students:

Source: Tales of the Jedi

But none of this is even remarkable when you insert perhaps the most potent part of the feat: That Thon's power was so great he made Ambria partially an LS Nexus:

“ In return, she had witnessed scenes plucked from the planet's history: the Sith sorceress as she was consumed by her failed spell; the Jedi Master's struggle to trap the dark side in Lake Natth.
...
“the Huntress could feel this was a place of power: a nexus for both the light and dark sides of the Force.”
Source: Darth Bane PoD

So we know, Ambria is:
The largest DS release of power EVER recorded by the Jedi + Countless Sith Spirits, and Thon "ensnared this power and trapped it in a lake". But he also "easily repelled" the attacks of the DS spirits, kept them prisoner, and most importantly, made Ambria "a nexus for both the light and dark sides of the force".

Power of the Jedi also backs up that using force light to strip the force power of a site is extremely extremely difficult in nature, far harder than using sever force on other individuals:


Source: Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

the key take-away here is that while 1-40 roll can all damage characters and DS spirits, it takes 41 or higher roll to even AFFECT a DS site, and it's "extremely difficult" to go from extreme to minor to not tainted

Let's look at some of the release of DS power that was recorded by the Jedi shall we?
Firstly: Ku'ar Danar:

Source: Le facteur X"—Casus Belli 115


Source: Google Translate
The power of the DS gave Ku'ar Danar the ability to "move a planet" (which he did in a ritual that created a monolith). This feat was recorded by a Jedi named Dace and logically on the Jedi archive.

Secondly Naga Sadow:
He was capable of causing a supernova and destroy a star system:

Recognizing his imminent defeat, the Sith Lord abandoned his forces and started a chain of events to destroy the nearby star and everything in its vicinity.
Source: Timeline 12: The Great Hyperspace War

To annihilate his pursuers and cover his escape, Naga Sadow set in motion a chain of events that imploded the star of Primus Goluud. His apprentice died in the destruction as Naga Sadow fled back to Korriban.
Source: The Old Republic Encyclopedia

Ancient Sith were also masters of these arts - Lord Naga Sadow was able to affect the stars themselves, and caused the red supergiant Primus Goluud to go nova.
Source: The Old Republic Encyclopedia

Gav Daragon, who had been fooled into becoming Naga Sadow’s servant, led the assault on his homeworld, Koros Major. When one of his friends was killed, Gav realized Sadow had been manipulating him, and defected to the Republic. Alongside Empress Teta’s forces, he joined the battle at Primus Goluud. Trapped, Sadow used a superweapon to explode the red giant. Sadow’s forces escaped into hyperspace before the shockwave hit; Gav Daragon was killed, but not before he had transmitted Korriban’s coordinates to Empress Teta and the Republic fleet.
Source: The Old Republic: Codex Entry: Galactic History 28: The Battle of Primus Goluud

This feat however is also recorded in the Jedi Records:

Source: Tales of the Jedi

Odan Urr however, is a factual superior to Thon due to
1. He was the "Yoda" of the time, a position relating to his "strength in the force"

"A Jedi Master is afforded a great deal of respect within the Order... Some Jedi Masters have more authority than others due to their individual reputation. Master Yoda and Master Mace Windu are two examples in the Rise of the Empire era, as are Master Odan-Urr and Master Vodo-Siosk Baas in the Old Republic era... Much of the respect Jedi Masters garner within their respective Orders relates to their strength in the Force..."
Souce: Power of the Jedi

2. Odan Urr "presided" and "lead" the Jedi council which Thon is on:

Source: Power of the Jedi

Source: Jedi Academy Training Manual

3. Stats, which I won't use yet, tells the same story. Just in case Vaelias doubts this
Thon's feat of easily repelling the DS spirits, and utterly confining the DS nexus of Ambria, which was created by more DS release than the release enough to destroy stars and move planets, and making it into partially a LS nexus, is a feat that is absolutely superior to everything Lord Hoth has ever done, and Odan Urr is his factual superior.

Section 2: Urr's Modus Operandi

How Odan Urr works as a combatant and why it's particularly well-suited to fight Lord Hoth
1. Off the bat, he will likely use an attack like sever force intended to end the war quickly. He used this against Exar Kun off the bat:

Source: Tales of the Jedi

During the Koros fight against the pirates, he again chose to use one of the skills he picked up on his studies (BM) instead of going into conventional combat.
His sever force of course is able to be the driving force of causing the Sith to go extinct during the Great Hyperspace War:


Source: Tales of the Jedi

This is however, despite the Sith being in their golden age:

“In the Golden Age of the Sith, dark side spirits such as the ghost of Sith Lord Marka Ragnos regularly advised and threatened their successors.
Source: The Dark Side Sourcebook

“Someday he would usher in a new Sith golden age, just as Dark Lord Marka Ragnos had foretold.
Source: The Dark Side Sourcebook

And the average Sith being the result of 1000 years of cross-breeding between the Exiles and the Sith to create stronger species:


To give you an idea though, while Odan Urr was fighting these losers, the Brotherhood was depicted like this:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/18ojAwxHORcom6wDEgWeRf7WTIy-6fqZH7yaGX9Ns9Ok/edit
(the doc is incomplete, check generic depiction for now)

Qordis, one of the top dogs or the order, can be ragdolled by PoD Bane in both a force fight and a lightsaber duel:

"And therein lies the problem." Bane lashed out with the dark side, seizing Qordis in an immobilizing, crushing grip. His opponent tried to protect himself, throwing up a field to deflect the incoming assault, but Bane's attack tore through the pitiful defense, wiping it away as if it hadn't even been there.

There was a strangled cry of pain from Qordis as the Force tightened around him and lifted him up from the ground.

"Your wisdom has destroyed our order," Bane explained casually, watching as Qordis struggled helplessly above him. "You have polluted the minds of your followers; you and Kaan have led them down the path of ruin."

"I-I don't understand," Qordis gasped, barely able to speak as the breath was squeezed inexorably from his lungs.

"That has always been the problem," Bane replied. "The Brotherhood must be purged. The Sith must be destroyed and rebuilt. You, Kaan, and all the others must be wiped from the face of the galaxy. That is why I have returned."

Dawning horror spread across Qordis's long, drawn features. "Please he groaned, "not ... like this. Release me. Let me ... draw my lightsaber. Let us fight ... like Sith."

Bane tilted his head to the side. "Surely you know I could kill you just as easily with my lightsaber as I could with the Force."

"I . . . know." Qordis's skin was turning red, and his body was trembling as the pressure mounted. Each word he spoke took tremendous effort, yet somehow the dying man found the strength to make his final plea. "More ... honor ... in ... death ... by ... combat?'

Bane gave an indifferent shrug. "Honor is for the living. Dead is dead."

A final push with his mind tightened the invisible vise. Qordis let out a final scream, but with no air in his lungs it came out only as a rattling gasp that was lost beneath the snapping and crackling of his bones.
Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

A pair of figures waited in the center of the slaughter, one human and the other Twi'lek. He recognized them despite the darkness: Qordis and Kopecz, two of the more powerful Sith Lords.
Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

While the Ancient Sith are depicted like this:

Naga Sadow, Exar Kun, Darth Revan: each had been powerful.
...
"I’m sorry for abandoning you," he said softly. "I was blinded by dreams of past glory. Naga Sadow, Exar Kun, Darth Revan-I lusted after the power of the great Dark Lords of the past."
Source: Path of Destruction

It would take many months, maybe even years, before Bane could lay claim to its greatest secrets.

Darth Bane: Rule of Two

2. After the initial Sever force attack, Urr is likely to pull some other old Jedi Lore attack out his ass
We know that Odan Urr is one of the most knowledgeable Jedi EVER

“She [Yaddle] devoted herself to study and soon became one of the most learned Jedi since the great Odan Urr”
Source The Official Star Wars Fact File 105”

He has the access of:
-The Chamber of Antiquities, which contains more knowledge than Exar Kun will ever need (1)
-The Dark Holocron, the most powerful Sith Holocron of all time (2), containing knowledge of up to 100,000 years
-The Ossus Lore, which is the biggest collection of Jedi knowledge in the galaxy
-All of which he meditated for centuries (3), getting him more knowledge than essentially every Jedi EVER in history, including Yaddle:
(1) https://servimg.com/view/20478534/78
(2)

The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology wrote:
The most powerful Sith Holocron contained Sith teachings and histories that covered some hundred thousand years.

(3) https://servimg.com/view/20478534/80

More stuff of all this are in my respect thread here:
https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t4481-the-ultimate-odan-urr-respect-thread (go to knowledge section)

3. Even in the worst case scenario, where Urr meets Hoth in direct combat, his knowledge and his telepathy all are directly associated with increased combative abilities:
He is an expert telepath which gives him an elite advantage in combat:

"Odan-Urr's affinity for telepathy allowed him to moderate the gathering by telepathically touching all the Jedi in attendance."
Taken from TCSWE

https://servimg.com/view/20478534/36
https://servimg.com/view/20478534/31

“In combat, telepaths do have a distinct edge. Even if one fights by instinct and reflex, most cannot stop themselves from emitting monosyllabic thoughts that project their next movement. During my training bouts at the Jedi Temple, my opponents unwittingly revealed their every move, allowing me that crucial fraction of a moment that enabled me to be the one who would remain standing."
Source: Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

Furthermore, even Yaddle, an explicit inferior to Odan Urr in terms of knowledge, has "unique force abilities" due to her knowledge:
https://servimg.com/view/20478534/81
https://servimg.com/view/20478534/70

4. In the absolute best cast scenario for Hoth, Odan Urr isn't bad in lightsaber dueling
He easily dispatched an assassin while massively pre-prime:
https://servimg.com/view/20478534/20
https://servimg.com/view/20478534/21

He has heavy combative experience being the "Bane of the Sith"

Why is all this uniquely beneficial for Odan Urr against Hoth?

-Lord Hoth has shown NO defense or even knowledge of the techniques like sever force which Odan Urr will use at him first
-Lord Hoth is mostly a brute, a duelist, while Urr is likely to dispatch him before a duel even starts
All this means Odan Urr has an EXPLICIT advantage when fighting against Lord Hoth

Scaling for Odan Urr:

To keep this simple:

Odan Urr > Freedon Nadd

As previously mentioned, Odan Urr scales above Thon who contained Ambria, a power infinitely superior to any power Nadd ever used in his life. We also have Odan Urr scaling above Arca Jeth who was able to overpower Spirit Nadd's DS power influx to Amanoa (TOTJ) while Nadd retained his power after death (Essential Guide to the Force)
We also have the huge possibility that Urr killed Nadd as he is the Bane of the Sith for the 1000 years after the Great Hyperspace War

Freedon Nadd > Darth Tenebrous:

I will let Ant's blog summarize for me for now but looking forward for elaboration on the debate in later posts:
https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t2804-a-case-for-the-neo-antediluvians

Darth Tenebrous >>>>> Darth Bane:

"As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation." - Episode 1: The Phantom Menace Scrapbook

"Ultimately, Bane's plan produced more powerful Sith Lords with each generation." - Force and Destiny

That's 30 links to Sidious, 28 up till Tenebrous:

“Descended from Darth Bane, we are the select few who refuse to be carried by the Force and who carry it instead-thirty in a millennium rather than the tens of thousands fit to be Jedi. - Darth Plagueis

Darth Bane >>> Lord Hoth

This is pretty intuitive given the novel itself but will defend in later posts if addressed by Vaelias
So:
Urr > Prime Nadd >> Tenebrous >>>>> Prime Bane >>> Lord Hoth

TLDR:

1. Urr's scaling above Thon's containing of the Ambria nexus is far better than anything Hoth ever did in his life. Mostly because:
-containing DS nexus itself is extremely hard, far more difficult than using force light on people or spirits
-Ambria is a nexus more powerful than the power needed to cause supernovas, move planets, or destroy star systems
2. Urr's beginning would likely be a sever force technique, followed by other similar techniques, and THEN lightsaber combat. This is bad for Hoth because
-Urr effectively used Sever force against Sith FAR MORE POWERFUL than the brotherhood Sith Hoth was dealing against
-Hoth is a brute who has next to no knowledge on basic force principals, never mind elite powers like sever force
-Urr is one of the top dogs in knowledge and telepathy, but giving him edges in combat
3. Urr directly scale above Hoth:
Urr > Prime Nadd >> Sadow's death Nadd >> Sadow > Tenebrous >>>> Prime Bane >>> Lord Hoth
Urr is simply better than Hoth in every conceivable way, with me doubting he doesn't one-shot with sever force

RESPECT THE POWER OF ODAN URR, GRAND MASTER OF THE JEDI ORDER, BANE OF THE SITH, SLAYER OF THE FODDER... Wait what's his name? Sylvar? No he's weaker than Sylvar. I think it's the name of that planet? Where Luke killed those AT-ATs? OH HOTH RIGHT!

Done transferring the post from discord to here
@Vaelias ur move

LORD HOTH 
ROHLAN OF KAAL

---

---

In this intro I will be demonstrating the vast power of LORD HOTH Master of the Army of Light and near conqueror of the New Sith Empire of the last millennium. Ill first be presenting my case for Hoth, how powerful he is, how he functions and why I think he would make short work of Odan Urr Firstly lets examine what it means to be a Jedi Lord and the leader of the Army of Light, and to do that we need to understand the state of the order during the New Sith Wars


As the Sith closed in on sectors in the galaxy, so too did the Jedi snatch up systems, as more of a segregated series of Jedi factions than a central system, which where taken and defended by the Knights who claimed them, expanding much like we see the sith factions in Knight Errant

- Essential Guide to Warfare wrote:These “Jedi Lords” began their careers as knights on quests to defend abandoned worlds from slavery and exploitation. Gradually they came to hold political authority over systems and entire sectors, and became hereditary barons and kings. The Jedi domains were islands of peace and justice, where honorable rulers fought to keep the Sith at bay, attracted other brave Jedi to their banners, and sired sons and daughters who followed their parents in the way of the Force. Eventually, even the office of Supreme Chancellor and the rule of Coruscant itself were ceded to a line of Jedi Masters.

These Knights then progressed to Jedi Lords, becoming Kings with heirs that would be born into their positions as protector of the system

Essential Guide to Warfare wrote:By the beginning of the New Sith Wars, the Republic had endured centuries of turmoil. Sith and Separatist forces had gained control of the Rim and pushed Coreward, while corrupt megacorps had shaken off all but the most self-interested ties to the government, and many civilized systems had simply closed their borders. Only Jedi Knights had the will and skill to defend the helpless. These “Jedi Lords” began their careers as knights on quests to defend abandoned worlds from slavery and exploitation. 

-

-Essential Atlas Extra: The Knight Errant Gazetter wrote:The Draggulch Period of 2000 BBY to 1000 BBY saw the Republic shrink and civilization descend into chaos, with many star systems closing their borders against the darkness. The Jedi Order changed in response to the horrors of these centuries, with bands of Knights swearing to defend individual worlds and eventually regions against slavers, pirates and warlords. In some places the Jedi supported existing governments and rulers; in others, they became hereditary lords themselves, defending their people against a host of threats. The Supreme Chancellors of the time — more often than not Jedi themselves — divided many troubled parts of the galaxy into Jedi baronial sectors, thereby seeking to coordinate the endless struggle against the Sith. In 1004 BBY, the Jedi Order united the baronies as the Army of Light, commanded by Lord Hoth. When the Ruusan Reformations transformed the millions of ancient sectors into 1,024 new regional sectors, many old baronial borders were carried forward into the new system, as well as a host of other cartographic artifacts from ancient surveyors’ maps and former political territories. 

Every Jedi Lord will be trained since they come of the right age, but instead of learning in the temple amongst many others, they are raised and groomed as the sole heirs and protectors of their Jedi faction, its like equating learning in a classroom to one on one tutor sessions, needless to say being raised as a Jedi Lord has its advantages, but thats not all, being trained as heirs and being raised with families of their own, the Jedi of the New Sith Wars did not adhere to the usual emotional restraint we see the Jedi of old and of the PT embrace, taking more of an NJO approach when it comes to light side emotional constraint, and this actually opens new pathways to power, letting power flow through you more easily, they can use love, which is noted to be the most powerful of emotions, and of course emotions are force energies

-Fate of the Jedi: Vortex wrote:Luke opened himself more fully to the Force, using his love for Ben and his lost wife and the entire Jedi Order to draw it into him.

-

- Legacy of the Force: Inferno wrote:He opened himself completely to the Force, drawing it in through the power not of his anger or fear-he was too exhausted and sad to feel either-but through his faith in his destiny, through the love that gave him the strength to serve that destiny.... through his love not only of Allana but also of Tenel Ka, of Luke and Ben and even Mara, of Jaina and his parents and all the others who had betrayed him, of his allies and enemies and his dead mentors. He drew the Force in through his love of them all, of the entire galaxy he was sacrificing himself to save.

the implication is that the state of the Jedi Order during these times brought to light a new philosophy expounded upon by Master Morrit Ch'gally

-Endless Vigil wrote:They were as strong in the Force as any of their comrades, but were not as blinded by dogma or as beholden to ancient tradition as other Jedi. They understood that, while certainly powerful, the Force had its limitations and was only one tool in their well-stocked toolbox. The most important tool, certainly. but still a tool to use or set aside as the situation demanded. Following the teachings of Ch'gally, the Sentinels scattered to the galactic winds. using their skills and dedication to effect real change in the galaxy.

-

Endless Vigil wrote:Even while they were still readily available. the old Jedi records were unclear about the beginnings of the Sentinels. Some sources, though, suggest that an ancient Jedi Master named Morrit Ch'gally founded that practical discipline. Ch'gally was a member of the Army of Light and a veteran of the crusades against the Brotherhood of Darkness. He served as a recruiter in the Acquisition Division of the Jedi Order and. while stationed at the Jedi Temple on Coruscant

-
Their philosophy allows for the Jedi of the New Sith Wars to open up more fully to the force, and those Jedi are groomed for their future positions under said philosophies, so you get all these Jedi mini factions being ruled by these powerhouse Jedi Lords, who each command their own mini Jedi armies and make up the Jedi Grand Council. Just one of the Lords, Valenthyne Farfalla possessed one of the largest army of force-wielders in history in his system alone, and there are several of these systems

They were supported by Republic units that preferred Jedi leadership to the orders of the Admiralty, and by additional forces such as the private army of the half-Bothan Valenthyne Farfalla. Farfalla commanded one of the largest fighting companies of Forcewielders ever seen—a personal retinue of one hundred knights and esquires, and a feudal following of two hundred more - Essential Guide to Warfare

eventually the Grand Council of Jedi Lords united all the factions with their own systems militia both Jedi and soldier into the Army of Light with Hoth as the ruler

- Essential Guide to Warfare wrote:When Lord Hoth decided to take the offensive against the Sith in 1010 BBY, he gathered Jedi Lords and their bands of knights from across the galaxy, a movement that swelled until the last Grand Council of the Order declared all the Jedi baronies united as the Army of Light, commanded by Lord Hoth bearing the ancient title of Seneschal.

-
All of these Jedi Factions unite under Lord Hoth, resulting in Jedi numbers greater than ever in history, with all these independent Jedi systems joining forces

-Path of Destruction wrote:"It wasn't the Republic," Kopecz replied. "It was the Jedi. Hundreds of them. Thousands. Jedi Masters, Jedi Knights, Jedi Padawans: an entire army of Jedi."

those numbers are going on a decrease during the war of light and darkness, leading up to the end of the war to where all their spirits are trapped in the thought bomb and becomes the Valley of the Jedi

All those spirits are imprisoned, both dark and light, however all the Sith spirits are weak and are powered by Kaan

-Path of Destruction wrote:The Sith soldiers guarding the entrance to the subterranean tunnels were strong
in number but weak in spirit. They offered only token resistance to Farfalla and
the rest of the Jedi advance units who came against them. The last battle of
Ruusan quickly transformed into a mass surrender, with the enemy throwing
down their weapons and begging for their lives.

-

-Path of Destruction wrote:"The full power of the Sith Lords is now united here on Ruusan," he continued,
projecting his words to even the most distant of his followers. Reaching out to
them with the undeniable power of the Force, he fed them, rejuvenated them,
and filled their hollow spirits. "We are strong. Stronger than the Jedi. We are the
champions of the dark side, and we will crush Lord Hoth and his servants of
light!"

And Kaan's spirit escapes the thought bomb

Relaunched Fact File 22 wrote:

Not only does this mean that Kaan's power is close to the power of the Thought bomb, enough to resist it, but also that the Sith component in the power of the Valley of the Jedi is minute, the power of the Valley mainly comes from the Jedi Spirits, since the power source for the Sith is not actually trapped in the Thought Bomb

He plans to feed on us, to take our power, to use it for evil!" -Dark Forces: Jedi Knight

The Brotherhood is just a Dark Parody of the Jedi Order, so much like Kaan with the Sith, Hoth is the collective spirit of the Jedi, Firstly, we see this demonstrated  his spirit being broken by each Jedi death.

-Rule of Two wrote:"Equality is a chain, like obedience. Like fear or uncertainty or selfdoubt. The
dark side will break these chains. But Kaan could not see this. He did not grasp
the true power of the dark side. The Brotherhood of Darkness was nothing but a
twisted reflection of the Jedi Order, a dark parody of the very thing we stood
against. Under Kaan the Sith had become an abomination."

-

I'm dying with every Knight… every death is a burning nail in my chest! -Jedi vs Sith

Your spirit is released through the vital gate, near the heart, the pain in Hoth's chest is his spirit dying with all the Jedi deaths

It must be understood that anger can be funneled through the body and released near the heart at the "vital gate"
-Book of Sith

We see how the Jedi Order functions with Yoda, The Jedi making up his spirit and his spirit dying with each death

- Revenge of the Sith Visual Dictionary wrote:in his contest with Sidious, Yoda realizes he is overmatched and deserts the fight, perhaps because[/size] his spirit has been broken by so many Jedi deaths. However, he remains determined to achieve victory over the dark side.

indeed the language here in their final confrontation mirrors each others

Revenge of the Sith wrote:This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just-didn't-have it. -Revenge of the Sith Novel

-

Dark Forces: Jedi Knight wrote:The final confrontation came in the Valley located above the chambers. It was there, in an amphitheater carved by the forces of wind, rain, and erosion, that the Brotherhood of Darkness had assembled and waited for death. And it was into the Valley that Tal dragged his aching body, knowing that death hovered nearby but determined to protect his master's back. And it was there that Kaan, the Lord of Darkness, met Hoth, Defender of the Light, and gestured to the cliffs that rose on every side. "Welcome, Lord Hoth. Welcome to the grave and darkness from which none will ever emerge. 

-

New Essential Chronology wrote:

but how does this concept work exactly? we get more insight on this concept with Yoda, where we learn that this is because Yoda has a force connection to the entire order, killing Yoda will sever all those bonds, breaking Yoda's spirit, thus cutting the Jedi off from the light side of the force, if you sever Yoda, you sever the light side

All Jedi have a connection to Yoda, in the force all Jedi have threads flowing from them to Yoda, Dooku does too, but he went to the dark side, and his thread is a direct path to Yoda spirit

I think we are overlooking an obvious thread. Which is? Count Dooku was Yoda's apprentice. And Count Dooku has fallen to the dark side. All of us have apprenticed to Master Yoda. He cannot be held accountable for Dooku's descent. But they are connected. Profoundly. Whoever the Sith Lord is, he may be using this relationship as a direct link to Yoda. -Voices Script

Yoda is the point where all those Jedi threads cross, like seen here, which is what the Sith are doing in S6 trying to corrupt Yoda through that link fog him out and cut off all his threads

It was a grid work of uncountable fine threads, running here and there to various points, connecting, linking, crossing, intertwining in a complex woven fabric that seemed to bind all into a whole tapestry. And many threads shot away from it into the surrounding space, as if stretching out to touch other worlds. “It’s the lines of energy!” said Luke. “I can see them!” -Heart of the Jedi

It is strong with the Force. The threads of energy which interweave to bind all life together have many crossings there. It is a collection point, its concentrated power form a sort of gateway into the pure essence of all being. -Heart of the Jedi

Master Yoda has travelled to Moraband. Once known as Korriban, this planet was the ancient graveyard of many past Sith Lords. The old Master was more vulnerable than ever before, and a chance to strike at him - and so arguably, at the heart of the Jedi order - was too good to be missed -Relaunched Fact File 101

Anger by itself is not of the dark side unless it is accompanied by a desire to dominate. When we act in harmony with the will of the Force, we disappear into it. When we struggle against it, we not only sever our ties with the Force, but also feed the needs of chaos. “The evolution of sentience reflects the constant movement between those two poles. Evil—the dark side—won’t be eradicated until it has been discarded as an option for acquiring power -The Unifying Force

Which would eclipse the light side for the Jedi and see them defeated

Sidious emerges from the glow of the sacrificial altar. The illusion has ended. Sidious has failed to break Yoda’s spirit. The Sith Lords will need more time to defeat Yoda and the Jedi -Sacrifice Episode Gallery

-

Sidious has one more task to perform before his conquest is complete: to kill Yoda. Then the light side of the Force will be eclipsed, and the Jedi order will cease to exist -Revenge of the Sith Visual Dictionary

-

"Are you so sure? If the Sith Lord wanted to attack the Jedi Order from within, Master Yoda would be the perfect choice. I fear we are more vulnerable than we think." -Voices Script

-

"I sense we have a great opportunity to strike a deadly blow to the Jedi Order. But we must act swiftly." -Sacrifice Script

-

"We have failed to break Master Yoda. He is strong. We will need more time if we are to defeat him and the Jedi." -Sacrifice Script

-

In a burned out, industrial sector of Coruscant, Count Dooku’s solar sailer sets down in a secret hangar. He is greeted by his Master, Darth Sidious, who senses a great opportunity to strike a deadly blow against the Jedi Order -Sacrifice Episode Gallery

which means that the Jedi directly rely on Yoda as the avatar of light for their power, he keeps them all bound together and strong, united as an order. We see how these threads are created through emotions, this is the same deal with Hoth, only rather than, fear, deception etc it is the power of love, joy, compassion, etc

I could feel the connections Dooku had forged among Jango and the Trade Federation, the Geonosians, the whole Separatist movement: connections of greed and fear, of deception and bald intimidation. I did not know what they were—I did not know how Dooku had forged them, or why— but I felt their power: the power of what I now know is a web of treason he had woven to catch the galaxy. -Shatterpoint

once small islands of light side power, now united as one

The Jedi domains were islands of peace and justice, where honorable rulers fought to keep the Sith at bay, attracted other brave Jedi to their banners, and sired sons and daughters who followed their parents in the way of the Force. - Essential Guide to Warfare

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"Lord Hoth realized that the strength of the Jedi order was spread too thin trying to defend the Republic," Kopecz continued. "He's gathered them all into a single host with only one goal: destroy the users of the dark side. -Path of Destruction

Now, the power of the living force in the galaxy is determined by the Jedi in the galaxy

The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion. -A New Hope

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it was only fitting that the Order's days were numbered; that the fire that had been the Jedi was guttering and dying out. -Labyrinth of Evil

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The Father, unable to keep the balance, loses control. the light is extinguished. the dark rises, and hope is lose. these are a shade of things to come -Alter of Mortis Rewatch

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“An explosion bright as a star,” Shryne said. “A forest world, intrepid defenders, escaping ships, and … you, I think, somehow at the center of it all.” His bloodstained lips formed themselves into a sublime smile, and a tear ran from his right eye. “Skywalker, it won’t matter if you find them. It won’t matter if you find and kill every Jedi who survived Order Sixty-Six. I understand now … the Force will never die.” -Dark Lord Rise of Darth Vader

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Obi-Wan reached out to the Force to find him, but met only the thin stirring of a barren world. It was strange to live in a galaxy now that had no Jedi in it. He hadn't realized that he had once felt a humming presence, alive with the Force-ability of his fellow Jedi. It had fed him, and he hadn't even known it. -The Last One Standing

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And was it any wonder that Shryne had lacked the strength to alter the course of Vader’s lightsaber? He had thought of his diminished abilities as a personal failure—owing to the fact that he had lost his faith in the Jedi order, allowed his two Padawans to die, grown thought-bound—when, in fact, it was the Force as the Jedi had known it that had been defeated. The flame extinguished. -Dark Lord Rise of Darth Vader

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Yoda or just about any other Jedi Master would have been able to rid Climber of the battle droid with a Force push, but Shryne needed Climber’s help to move the sparking carcass aside. Years back, he would have been able to manage it alone, but no longer. He wasn’t sure if the weakness was in him or if, with the death of every Jedi, the war was leaching some of the Force out the universe. - Dark Lord Rise of Darth Vader

each Jedi creates fire which is all linked combined and focused through the one in charge, the focus point of the living force in the galaxy, the force uniting all the power in tapestry that feeds force users everywhere, embodied in main avatar

-Revenge of the Sith Novel wrote:"Your time is over! The Sith rule the galaxy! Now and forever!" And it was the whole of the Jedi Order that rocketed from its huddle, making of its own body a weapon to blast the Sith to the ground. "At an end your rule is, and not short enough it was, I must say."

Indeed we see this is a very important concept in Shamanism, the foundation George based the force on in Star Wars

"In shamanic practice, we seek to work in partnership with the living as well as with the spirits of the ancestors and other allies. By connecting with the energy of the living, we can draw on their strength and vitality to help us in our work." - Contemporary Shamanic Teachings

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"All living things possess power, and by tapping into this power we can create change in the world. By working with the living, we can harness the collective energy of the community to create healing and transformation." - Traditional African Shamanic Wisdom

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Indeed we see this with Hoth, drawing strength from these bonds and being the source of hope and victory for the Jedi to where they are screaming his name in service of their ruler, who fills their spirits with emotions forming this web of power, and yeah this is a relationship we just don't see among Jedi, calling him Sire and screaming his name in Glory, these bonds are likely much stronger than most Jedi, this is classic warrior culture

"I pray that I am wrong, sire, for nothing would please me more. I will be at your side no matter the outcome." Hoth smiled and took the old man's hand. "I know and take strength from it. Come... history awaits." -Dark Forces: Jedi Knight

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The Jedi leader collected his lightsaber, threw his cape back over a shoulder, and strode into the sunshine. The Army of Light saw him emerge, and a thousand voices roared his name. -Dark Forces: Jedi Knight

We see some nice imagery of Hoth's commanding presence towering over the others, there's also the implication there that Hoth is the most powerful thing Kyle has ever seen, and he is only a statue , idk about you but this description of Hoth really gives a feel for his place in the AoL and just makes him look so supreme

It was Lord Hoth, his eyes focused on something Kyle couldn't see, a hand on his light saber. The Jedi looked so real, so powerful, that the Rebel halfexpected him to speak. And there, just to the Jedi Master's right, stood another familiar figure. The man stood tall in spite of the years that weighed on his shoulders. He wore a long, white beard, and even though a hood concealed most of the Jedi's face, Kyle knew who it was. Still loyal, still at his master's side, Tal waited through the years. Hoth, and the manner in which he towered over the figures around him, gave Kyle an idea -Dark Forces: Jedi Knight

But the main point here is that the power of the Army of Light is the power of Hoth, and that energy in the Valley of the Jedi, minus the inconsequential power of the Sith, is Hoth's - The Valley of the Jedi, and Hoth is THE Jedi, more of the power in the Valley belongs to Hoth than it does to Jerec, which makes sense given that Kyle was too powerful for Jerec to defeat after having grown into his power

Jerec was already powerful enough to subjugate the other Dark Jedi to his designs; now he has tapped the power of a thousand Jedi ancients. Fortunately, you have interrupted him in midusurpation. -Dark Forces II: Strategy Guide

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Oh indeed yes he has grown into his power with the help of...ah, with the help of Rahn too stubborn even for death -Dark Forces Jedi Knight Audiodrama

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but Kyle Katarn! But wait - the boy had changed, had grown into more than an annoyance:a Jedi Knight! Not entirely unexpected, since Jerec had been aware of the boy's potential before he had, but surprising nonetheless. A self-taught Jedi was nearly unheard of- unless! -Dark Forces: Jedi Knight

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Jerec's followers held Kyle off long enough for Jerec to access the Valley's secrets and gain phenomenal Force powers. But even with his increased might, Jerec was unable to defeat Kyle or to prevent him from freeing the Valley's trapped Jedi spirits -Dark Side Sourcebook

but is still a complete novice compared to Tal, LaToR and the rest of the Brotherhood of Darkness who created the Thought Bomb, there's also the implication that Kyle would have to go to the dark side to surpass LaToR, Kaan's 5th strongest guy

Kyle was a novice compared to those around him and might have been killed if it hadn't been for LaTor and the other Jedi's strength. For LaTor was strong, very strong, and Kyle was impressed by the power resident in the dark side. -Dark Forces: Jedi Knight

So there is a pretty big gap there between Kyle and any of the Brotherhood Sith of whom's power is made up of portions of Lord Kaan's, in fact they simply cant resist Kaan's calling

the calling which Kaan can casually do on a whim through his connection to all the Brotherhood etc

-Darkness Shared wrote:He could sense his Master's summons in the Force, and he could not resist the beckoning much longer. Lord Kaan was calling them all, the entire Brotherhood.

Dark Nest Luke who shares the same mechanics bearing the same connections does this and overloads his body with power near crippling him

Dark Nest III: The Swarm War wrote:The call had arisen a few hours earlier, in the middle of a StealthX assault that had failed to turn hack the Chiss task force. The summons was coming from the direction of the known galaxy, a sense of beckoning and urgency that was growing more powerful by the hour, calling the Jedi Knights back toward Ossus, demanding they return to the Academy at once.

"We all feel it," Tahiri said. She furrowed her scarred brow, then turned to Tesar and Lowbacca. "At least I think we do."

The Barabel and the Wookiee nodded in agreement. "It iz hard to ignore," Tesar said.

"And we shouldn't try," Jacen replied. "Something bad must be happening for my uncle to summon us all like this. Even Luke Skywalker can't pull on the Force that hard without suffering for it."

...

Luke's entire body felt stiff and sore, his head was aching, and his hands were trembling. He tested his legs and found them a little wobbly.

"I'm fine," he said. His stomach felt as empty as space. "A little hungry, maybe."

"I'll bet." Continuing to hold his arm, Mara turned to leave the meditation pavilion. "Let's get you something to eat ... and some rest."

Luke did not follow her. "I can last another hour." Through the Force, he could feel nearly the entire Jedi order gathered in the lecture hall, waiting to learn why he had summoned them. "We need to do this now."

"Luke, you look like you've been hanging out in wampa caves again," Mara said. "You need to rest."

So we get something like
Kaan >>>>>BoD Member >>> Kyle >~ Valley Jerec >>>> Normal Jerec

But how powerful is Jerec before absorbing part of the Valley... He is approaching Vader and is close to him, implied to be deserving of the rank of Dark Lord if only Vader didn't already have that title, after all there can only be two, but Jerec is very close, keep in mind the disconnect between Vader's living force and cosmic force power here, this is in terms of living force of course so I guess you could say the part of Vader that is sub TPM obviously not his mega Chosen One side of power)

-Galaxy of Fear wrote:The Tattooed man's dark-side energy wasn't quite as powerful as the feeling she'd gotten from Darth Vader months ago. This man wasn't as strong as Vader. But he was almost as evil

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-Essential Guide to Characters wrote:Palpatine never named Jerec a Sith Lord, Vader already held that title

and then he already has Living Force powers rivalling Darth Vader after Vader dies (again you have to remember the disconnect here In Vader's cosmic and living powers here)

-Dark Forces II: Game Manual wrote:His embrace of the Force's dark side gives him powers that rival Vader's.

but that then at least triples from the Valley's power

-Dark Forces: Jedi Knight wrote:There was leakage, though, leakage that could double or even triple his ability — and whet his appetite for more. The Jedi Master directed a thought outward, steered a circle around the cauldron of churning energy, and located a place where a steady stream of pitch-black energy had broken through the protective shell and strobed into space.

Jerec chose a single shaft of negative energy, drew on its power, and felt himself expand. Bigger and bigger until his mind was everywhere, until he was one with the dark inner fabric of the Force itself, until he stood on the very brink of what he perceived as being all-powerful.

So you have this Valley Jerec worth at least 3 Vader's (From what he feeds off the spirits, not including the other amps), but just how powerful is one Vader ??

Well one ROTJ Vader is far far more powerful than ANH Vader, he is always growing. (there's so much growth so Ill just keep it simple and outline a bit of it)

- Force And Destiny wrote:As Darth Sidious's apprentice, Vader continues to expand his knowledge and the power of the dark side.

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-Galactic Battlegrounds wrote:My Master seems pleased; his apprentice grows ever stronger

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-The Story Of Darth Vader wrote:Even his own generals could not escape Vader's wrath, and as time went by, the Sith's powers grew even stronger.

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-Insider 62 wrote:Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star

This also results in ROTJ Vader being far more powerful than EoTFU Vader who is far more powerful than early Galen Marek

-Haden Blackman, the Guardian interview wrote:One of the overriding feedback answers was that they wanted the apprentice to be human, athletic and powerful. Not too powerful though, as he shouldn't eclipse Vader. But the key thing was that they wanted to look at the character and see that he could be redeemed. Obviously redemption is one of the key themes of the Star Wars saga. They all said it was great hunting down Jedi and being Vader's dog but ultimately they wanted the character to be redeemed.

Who kills Desolous in Jedi Temple, Desolous who is with the combined might of the Ancient Council, it requiring the entire council to kill him

-Star Wars: The Force Unleashed Wii & PSP (Darth Desolous) wrote:"It took the entire council to kill me, boy. You have no chance." 

Something utterly beyond any single member the ancient council, especially since Odan is below people like Ulic as a Jedi and then getting one shot by Kun in like the most notable instance of a one shot we have in Star Wars

-Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith wrote:But Ulic Qel-Droma isnt just anyone; he's a Jedi, perhaps the greatest of his time

And ANH Vader is far more powerful than either of those two, their power literally passing directly to Vader similar to what we see happen with Nadd and Kun, or Ragnos and Kun and Ulic, and its in Tales of the Jedi itself

Galaxy Magazine 8 wrote:

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Again and again the dark side has surged forth, like a storm…devouring whole worlds and entire star systems. Those who mastered dark power became dark power. They unleashed destruction, for no other reason than for selfish gain. They despoiled nations…destroyed whole civilizations. Some of them, I am ashamed to say, were Jedi." -Tales of the Jedi Companion

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The Dark Lords were powerful Jedi Knights who used the dark side of the force to master the Sith people. There could be but one dark lord at a time this lineage was passed from one generation to the next. It is said their mummified remains are preserved forever Ron a hidden world in monumental temples they constructed to honour themselves -Tales of the Jedi

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"I now complete your initiation to the power of the dark side...so that you may bring to pass the great destiny foretold...Exar Kun, because of you, the Sith will never die...you have rightly earned the title of...Dark Lord of the Sith!" -Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith #6

-Tales of the Jedi wrote:

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- Dark Lord Rise of Darth Vader wrote:Married to the order of the Sith, you will need no other companion than the dark side of the Force …

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-Essential Guide to Characters wrote:

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From the above we can see that the Dark Lords lineage passes from one dark lord to the next, with the power they master becoming the power the next one wields, with Vader wielding Kun's power, we get stuff like "the Sith will never die" also suggests that the power of the Sith is immortal, and will continue to be passed down from generation to generation. This reinforces the idea that the Sith's power is not just individual, but is also rooted in a tradition and lineage of Dark Lords who have mastered the dark side of the force. Which is in direct contrast to Veitch's other works like Dark Empire where he talks about this concept regarding Luke and how it works the same with the Jedi

“the power of all the Jedi who have gone before” being focused in Luke. I think it follows logically from the fact, shown in the films, that the Jedi don’t break off communication when they die. There would be a tremendous need, among the fallen Jedi, to right the great wrong done to their Company. They wouldn’t just drift off to the Elysian Fields (as Zahn shows Obi-Wan doing in his plot outline). Thus the idea of focusing on Luke, the last of their kind — the last hope for the Jedi. I disagree that knowledge of the Force is merely “a highly individual and personal thing”, a kind of talent that one develops. Indeed, we know the Force is “an energy field created by all living things that binds the universe together”. The Jedi Knights were trained to tap into this collective energy, and use it in combat or for other magical purposes. Yes, that takes a certain talent and skill — and an individual relationship to this vast well of power… But the ultimate talent for using the Force comes not from the ego or “one’s own efforts”, but from “letting go” the ego’s need to control. The Force then “becomes strong in you”, suggesting a kind of mystical sharing, through feeling — a conscious relationship to this collective and all-pervasive energy. -Interview with Tom Veitch

This of course is the cosmic well of energy but Vader is still more proficient at using that and transmuting it to living force power given that he is more dangerous in a combat context


it should also be noted that in Star Wars Galaxies during the Battle of Echo Base there is a Vader fight, yet you can do him no damage, yet Exar Kun is a boss you can damage and defeat, but this is all ingrained in TOTJ itself and Hoth is a direct recipient of it, existing two thousand years of combat and force progression later and handling all the power we have outlined above

A little chain summary of this would be [/size]Hoth > Kaan(the source of BoD power) >>>>>BoD Member >>> Kyle > Valley Jerec >>>> Normal Jerec ~ ROTJ Vader >>>> TFU Vader >> Galen Marek > Desolous ~ combined ancient council >>>> Odan Urr <<<<<< Exar Kun <<<<< Vader <<<<<< Valley Jerec < Kyle <<<<< LaToR and rest of BoD survivors who made the thought bomb <<<<<<< Kaan(the source of their power) < Hoth As you can see Odan Urr is trapped and is not getting out. Now we explained how Hoth and Kaan function the same, are essentially the opposites, Yoda and Palpatine of their time, and it seems we might have got a similar confrontation if Kaan hadnt have kamikaze'd the both of them, but as if this wasnt enough, lets touch on why I think Hoth is actually better than Kaan, and that is simply because the Jedi were beating the Sith, the Jedi were better, have always been better per Lucas and other EU works, Hoth's forces of light were greater, the Sith near defeated, heres a few quotes for that before we get into what makes Hoth stand out as a warrior

"It is time to end this foolish quest, Bane. The old ways have failed. The Jedi defeated those who followed them: Exar Kun, Darth Revan . . . they all lost! We have to find a new philosophy if we want to defeat them." -Path of Destruction, Kas'im

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Naga Sadow, Exar Kun, Darth Revan: each had been powerful. Each had drawn disciples in, teaching them the ways of the dark side. Each had assembled an army of followers and unleashed them against the Jedi. Yet in each and every case the servants of light had prevailed**. -Path of Destruction

[*]

BEN (cont'd) This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight... not as clumsy or random as a blaster. An elegant weapon... for a more civilized time. (He begins to remember) For over a thousand generations Jedi Knights were the most powerful, most respected force in the galaxy... the guardians of peace and justice in the old republic. That was when the galactic senate ruled the galaxy before the dark times, before the empire. - Adventures of Luke Skywalker as taken from The Journal of the Whills

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For over a thousand generations, Luke the Jedi Knights were the most powerful, most respected force in the galaxy. -A New Hope Novelisation

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Again, Lucas does not tell the audience whether the story is set in the past, present or future. We learn that the Jedi Bendu knights have known the force of others for a hundred thousand years, and that they were the most powerful warriors in the Universe until “the tragic Holy Rebellion of “06””.66 However, it is not revealed whether “06” refers to a specific period of time. -Star Wars, The Rough Draft, May 1974

Not only does Hoth draw from the strongest light side emotions due to the ideology of the Jedi of this era but as a side effect of their positions in the war the dark side has been growing inside them, Hoth in particular with even his name being based on his almost Dark Jedi like portrayal, and this of course is the cause of all the Jedi's war growth during the Clone Wars, with all these one shot gaps being made between them an the non war time guys in TPM. So some of these jedi connections are empowered by the Dark Side, which of course is stronger, and what is used in combat

CREATURE: See not what is inside Yoda? I choose not to give you power. CREATURE: And yet you spend your days in the decadence of war. And with that, I grow inside you. -Destiny Script

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"I suspect the name was originally chosen to be symbolic of his demeanor: cold, grim and harsh." -Drew Karpyshyn: Old Republic Forums

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"I dreamt that I would single-handedly defeat the dark side, that I would make a difference, change the galaxy… the galaxy, however, has changed me." -Jedi vs Sith

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Lord Hoth's face grew dark as if hidden from the sun. "You try my patience, old one. We conjured an army from nothing... We turned freighters into warships... we fought seven terrible battles... Battles in which thousands ofJedi died -Dark Forces: Jedi Knight

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There was a weariness as well, for the mind was very, very old. But evil cares little for age or infirmity. It grows where it can, sinking its roots deep into the rich fertilizer of ego, lust, greed, envy, and hatred, sending new shoots to the surface where they forma tangle from which nothing can escape. -Dark Forces: Jedi Knight

In his rage being noted to be unstoppable even compared to the strength of the Maw itself, which of course is a black hole Cluster, where Abeloth is imprisoned, thats just about as bad ass a comparison as you can get, Hoth is the Maw, Odan is... the great library on Ossus 

Pernicar vanished beneath the sea of enemies, and Hoth redoubled his efforts to reach his fallen friend. He was unstoppable in his fury, like the devastating storms of the Maw itself. When he reached him, Pernicar was already dead. Just as the rest of them soon would be. -Path of Destruction

Add that to the fact Hoth is a Jedi Battlemaster, who have mastery over many forms of combat and are the best in the Order, and he achieved this in his mid twenties

"In his mid-twenties, after the Republic committed troops to consolidate his gains, he traveled to Coruscant and became Master Hoth, the respected battlemaster of the Jedi Temple -- a warrior grown weary of battle, training a new generation of apprentices how to fight with a lightsaber." -The Essential Guide to Warfare

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Battlemasters are experts in more melee styles than most beings know exist Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

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The greatest master of lightsaber combat in the Jedi Order was known as the Battlemaster -Jedi Academy Miniatures Preview 3

after one has mastered all these styles, its a case of refining the styles over the years.[/size]

After years of study, he'd mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he'd honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever. Bane was no match for him. -Path of Destruction

after the damages and losses of the Seventh Battle of Ruusan the Jedi had spent the last thousand years training to refight the last war, indicating that their swordsmanship was still something to be regained after the loses, all their skills knowledge and power was trapped away in the thought bomb after all and never passed on

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves. They had become new. While the Jedi- The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war. The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon? -Revenge of the Sith

Which makes sense considering the dark side and corruption of war is the main component here for mega combat growth, something the Jedi didn't have again until the PT, and something that they didn’t really have before either, Hoth walks this very fine line between light and dark yet stays completely committed to the light, a true warrior that only death could stop

Indeed Durge learned their fighting styles and is just stomping people in the Clone Wars left right and centre

The Gen'Dai that would become Durge was born two thousand years before the fall of the Republic, and was regarded by his elders as an exceptional physical specimen at a young age. A predilection for aggression, coupled by witnessing bounty hunters in action, forever steered young Durge into a lifetime of violence. The lure of the blood trade drew Durge away from his tribe and into the rest of the galaxy. For centuries, he studied under the most experienced and dangerous bounty hunters he could find. About a millennia before the Battle of Naboo, when the galaxy was wracked by warfare waged between the Jedi Knights and Sith Lords, Durge was in the employ of one of the few remaining Sith. In this time, he squared off against many a Jedi, learning their fighting techniques, and developing weaponry and combat tactics to counter their moves. When the Sith were finally wiped out at the Battle of Ruusan, Durge went into hiding to avoid Jedi reprisals. He adopted dozens of different aliases while continuing his career as a hunter, amassing a sizable fortune. -Durge Databank

with this era being combat taken to its logical extreme

Insider 85 wrote:

since combat is constantly progressing with the Jedi learning from each encounter throughout history, since Odan Urr's time on to Ruin's and then a millennia of war and none stop fighting to top it off

The Phantom Menace Press Book wrote:

Hoth in his old age since mastering everything in his twenties has had his whole life, most of which has been spent fighting in war, to refine everything and make him perfect. add that to his clear physical superiority, I don't see anything beating this rage filled Lord Hoth, especially not a bookworm like Odan Urr

Ill save a conclusion for the end. Now, On to the rebuttals...

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Darthor wrote:to establish the potency of the Ambria ritual, it is stated to have called upon more force powers than ANY INDIVIDUAL EVER DID BEFORE on the Jedi record:
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The ritual is further added by the spirit of the dead Sith Lords:
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Thon however was able to not only "easily repel" the attack of the insane amount of DS release from the ritual + the spirits, but also "ensnare his enemies in a lattice-work of light-side energy", an attack probably noted as force light:

Ok so this is where this whole argument falls apart right off the bat, you are saying there is a dark side ritual which called on more of the dark side than ever and then that was added to by an unspecified amount of Sith survivors spirits, and then Thon easily repelled all of that power, but why is it the power of the Ritual being added to there? when what remains of the ritual was only the deep stains it left behind ? If I take a chocolate bar and rub it along the side of my shirt, it doesn't mean my shirt is now infused with a full chocolate bar does it? only the stain that it left over which would logically be a fraction of the full chocolate bar. That is the power the spirits are building off, the stains of the dark side the ritual left on the planet, but how many spirits are there because I highly doubt a few spirits of a bunch of fodder escapees from the Hyperspace War would make up the gap between the stains the ritual left and the ritual itself.


So we are left with just: a source of power that is vastly sub the most powerful use of the dark side as of 3999BBY, and Thon. And here is why I don't think this is a particularly impressive feat for Thon anyway - Thon lands on the planet in full defense mode, gets swarmed instantly and just holds his defenses up until he has to pull out a 'final desperate strategy' holding up just long enough to get to the middle of the lake, by which time he can't sustain his defenses, he surrenders to the dark side which makes the dark side swarm and surround him, so its not as if he is pulling all that energy in, he is just holding up his shield and baiting himself long enough for all those energies to surround him so he can pull out a neat trick and bind them all together under the lake, a neat trick but it's made very clear that Thon is not as powerful as the Dark Side presence there he just snookered them, so what are we left with here? Thon scales below a power that scales below a power that at one point in time was the most powerful use of the dark side.


But all of this pales in comparison to......Thon making Ambria a Light Side Nexus?

Darthor wrote:But none of this is even remarkable when you insert perhaps the most potent part of the feat: That Thon's power was so great he made Ambria partially an LS Nexus:

I don't think this is anything particularly impressive on Thon's part, Thon locked all the Dark Side beneath the lake, so there is no dark side above the lake at this point so it doesn't surprise me that the Jedi presence on Ambria after the dark side was trapped away caused a partial light side Nexus. this isnt something that can be attributed to Thon

Dynasty of Evil wrote:The Force had once devastated this world before its power was trapped by an ancient Jedi Master in the depths of Lake Natth. Now the planet was a nexus of both dark and light side power

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Path of Destruction wrote:There was a malaise in the air, like some infectious disease of mind and spirit. The Force was strong on Ruusan inevitable given the vast numbers of Sith and Jedi there.

Darthor wrote:So we know, Ambria is:
The largest DS release of power EVER recorded by the Jedi + Countless Sith Spirits, and Thon "ensnared this power and trapped it in a lake". But he also "easily repelled" the attacks of the DS spirits, kept them prisoner, and most importantly, made Ambria "a nexus for both the light and dark sides of the force".

Eh, I'm sure you can see why I disagree with all this now.

Darthor wrote:the key take-away here is that while 1-40 roll can all damage characters and DS spirits, it takes 41 or higher roll to even AFFECT a DS site, and it's "extremely difficult" to go from extreme to minor to not tainted

Let's look at some of the release of DS power that was recorded by the Jedi shall we?
Firstly: Ku'ar Danar:
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The power of the DS gave Ku'ar Danar the ability to "move a planet" (which he did in a ritual that created a monolith). This feat was recorded by a Jedi named Dace and logically on the Jedi archive.

Secondly Naga Sadow:
He was capable of causing a supernova and destroy a star system:

Ah Dark Side powers Thon doesn't scale above . two things


1- These comparisons aren't an accurate way to decipher power levels in Star Wars because these feats are manifestations of the medium less than the actual power of the characters, stuff like Kun destroying Yavin is put below Maul's scuffle with Jinn and shit like Nihilus draining planet below Palpatine jumping around. It's just not a solid basis in which to determine ones power level


2 -There is no link between Thon and these feats from Sadow and Danar now that we picked apart the above, Hoth scales above this anyways though scaling above the power Jerec gained from the Valley


So by the end of this section, all you have proven is Odan Urr > Thon.

Darthor wrote:1. Off the bat, he will likely use an attack like sever force intended to end the war quickly. He used this against Exar Kun off the bat:

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During the Koros fight against the pirates, he again chose to use one of the skills he picked up on his studies (BM) instead of going into conventional combat.
His sever force of course is able to be the driving force of causing the Sith to go extinct during the Great Hyperspace War:

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This is however, despite the Sith being in their golden age:

Yeah and look how that turned out, sadly for Odan, he is facing a much more mighty opponent, I think the power gap here is far too great for Odan's sever to do anything if he even managed to get it off on the Battlemaster

Darthor wrote:Qordis, one of the top dogs or the order, can be ragdolled by PoD Bane in both a force fight and a lightsaber duel:

Sure he can. and bare in mind Qordis, Kas'im, Kopecz, maybe even Githany should all be above LaToR, who is described as Kaan's 5th most powerful Sith.

Dark Forces: Jedi Knight wrote:"They come." Kaan's second, third, and fourth in command were dead, killed during hellacious battles of the past few weeks. Number five, the Jedi known as LaTor, stepped forward and bowed.

LaToR doesn't appear in the Bane Trilogy, but being Kaan's 5th most important Sith, I don't see him as somebody who would be above the likes of Kaan's most trusted allies that we see depicted in Path of Destruction. but either way every one of the Sith that created the Thought Bomb is above Kyle at the time of Dark Forces which would mean Qordis as well, so the fact Bane can stomp him really only speaks to the might of Bane

Darthor wrote:While the Ancient Sith are depicted like this:

Naga Sadow, Exar Kun, Darth Revan: each had been powerful.
...
"I’m sorry for abandoning you," he said softly. "I was blinded by dreams of past glory. Naga Sadow, Exar Kun, Darth Revan-I lusted after the power of the great Dark Lords of the past."
Source: Path of Destruction

It would take many months, maybe even years, before Bane could lay claim to its greatest secrets.

Darth Bane: Rule of Two

This quote only suggests that Bane was blinded by his desires to emulate the power and glory of past Dark Lords, and does not make any objective claims about their comparative power in the force, I'm not surprised Bane would be envious of the glory days, after all these Brotherhood Sith are more akin to Dark Jedi fighting under the Sith name than any continuation of the lineage of Ancients, Im sure Bane wants to absorb that lineage on top of what he already has too, so this quote doesn't surprise me, it also doesn't do anything for you in this case, the second one just talks about how it might take a while for Bane to delve deep into a Holocron, also does not preclude Brotherhood Sith being more powerful in any sense

Darthor wrote:He has the access of:
-The Chamber of Antiquities, which contains more knowledge than Exar Kun will ever need (1)
-The Dark Holocron, the most powerful Sith Holocron of all time (2), containing knowledge of up to 100,000 years
-The Ossus Lore, which is the biggest collection of Jedi knowledge in the galaxy
-All of which he meditated for centuries (3), getting him more knowledge than essentially every Jedi EVER in history, including Yaddle:

Yeah sure Odan Urr is super knowledgeable and he has access to all of this stuff, but technically everyone on the council would have access to this stuff, its not exclusively Odan is it? furthermore The Dark Holocron? sure he has access to it but lets not act as though he has absorbed its power or something, this is clearly something not in his arsenal, which brings up the question, how do we know Odan is a master of all this Jedi information because you can say he has access to them, which I don't doubt, but every Jedi Master does(Or High council member or whatever), so what makes Odan particularly specialist in anything here, aside from being the first to memorize it all or something.

Darthor wrote:-Lord Hoth has shown NO defense or even knowledge of the techniques like sever force which Odan Urr will use at him first
-Lord Hoth is mostly a brute, a duelist, while Urr is likely to dispatch him before a duel even starts
All this means Odan Urr has an EXPLICIT advantage when fighting against Lord Hoth

-Lord Hoth might not have shown that no. but that doesn't mean he doesn't know what it is or how to defend against it, unless you can show me some quotes about the knowledge of the sever force ability being lost to the NSW guys then my default assumption is that what is essentially the Jedi Grand Master would have knowledge of it
-Why does that mean Urr has an explicit advantage, Is Hoth stated to be weak against force techniques in combat ? I think the only explicit advantage here is Hoth's vast superiority in swordsmanship and physicality, which you seem to agree with.

Darthor wrote:As previously mentioned, Odan Urr scales above Thon who contained Ambria, a power infinitely superior to any power Nadd ever used in his life. We also have Odan Urr scaling above Arca Jeth who was able to overpower Spirit Nadd's DS power influx to Amanoa (TOTJ) while Nadd retained his power after death (Essential Guide to the Force)
We also have the huge possibility that Urr killed Nadd as he is the Bane of the Sith for the 1000 years after the Great Hyperspace War

You seem to be operating on X did this but Y didnt so X is > Y, Logic, when absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, and from what we have been though Im inlined to believe that since Hoth scales vastly above, should he wish I could replicate the feats of those weaker than him. The power Thon contained was not in the slightest as powerful as the ritual used to create it so is the power Thon contained even > Nadd ? is Thon even close to that power ? where are the links here and how does any of this connect to Hoth? even if Urr is Nadd where does that get Urr ?

Darthor wrote:I will let Ant's blog summarize for me for now but looking forward for elaboration on the debate in later posts:

Linking blogs in debates ay  

Oh well who cares lol- I think that blog is completely wrong and ignoring of a few very important details, for one if you keep reading the excerpt it actually says the opposite of what you want it to say  

-Darth Plagueis wrote:While midi-chlorians appeared to resist manipulation of a sort that might imperil the balance of the Force, they remained passive, even compliant, in the case of a weak-willed being manipulated by one who was strong in the Force. Perhaps that explained why it was often easier to call on the Force to heal someone other than oneself. Extending life, then, could hinge on something as simple as being able to induce midi-chlorians to create new cells; to subdivide at will, increasing their numbers into the tens of thousands to heal or replace damaged, aging, or metastatic cells. Midi-chlorians had to be compelled to serve the needs of the body; to bestow strength when needed; to overcome physical insult, or prevent cells from reaching senescence.

If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and holocrons, the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish this. But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras? Some commentators claimed that the ability to survive death had been limited to those with a talent for sorcery and alchemy, and that the use of such practices actually predated the arrival of the Dark Jedi exiles on Korriban. But sorcery had been employed less to extend life than to create illusions, fashion beasts, and resurrect the dead. Powerful adepts were said to have been able to saturate the atmosphere of planets with dark side energy, compel stars to explode, or induce paralysis in crowds, as Exar Kun apparently did to select members of the Republic Senate. Other adepts used sorcery merely as a means to better understand ancient Sith spells and sigils.

Darth Bane had referred to sorcery as one of the purest expressions of the dark side of the Force, and yet he hadn’t been able to harness those energies with near the skill as had his onetime apprentice Zannah. Bane’s disciples, however, believed that he had experimented with a technique of even greater significance: that of essence transfer, which he had learned after acquiring and plundering the holocron of Darth Andeddu, and which involved the relocation of an individual’s consciousness into another body or, in some cases, a talisman, temple, or sarcophagus. Thus had the most powerful of the ancient Sith Lords survived death to haunt and harass those who would infiltrate their tombs.

The ancients could heal themselves, had they been more powerful? well actually it was talented sorcerers and they used sorcery less to extend life and more to create illusions and cast spells, Bane couldnt do this but he had essence transfer which is of greater significance and the most powerful Sith used it. This quote actually puts Bane above the Sith who merely used their sorcery to cast spells and create illusions (one of which listed for that is Kun). Also I have no doubt that the more prominent dark side in the galaxy would have helped back then, dark side surrounding you everywhere, certainly more helpful for sorcery than the 'gust of wind' of dark side that is in the galaxy in Plag's time considering sorcery is literally pulling the force from around you and back out again, more darkness surrounding you in war kinda helps lol but that doesnt make them more powerful, after all its 'were they more powerful orrrr had the dark side been more prominent??' well for one yes the more dark side unleashed at the time deffo helped. this excerpt puts Bane above Kun, who one shots Nadd and Odan Urr. not to mention Bane surpasses Nadd explicitly in Bane of Sith and Path of Destruction, but we can get more into this as we go on.

Darthor wrote:That's 30 links to Sidious, 28 up till Tenebrous:

28 links of the Dark Side growing stronger with each generation, but not 28 links of Sith Masters actually coming to embody that power per the doctrine "One to embody the power another to crave it" and some kill their Masters when they are still craving it, you cant be the Dark Lord until you actually earn the mantle and take out your master in his prime as its meant to be, the power will not favor you otherwise, will not pass to you

-Essential Readers Companion wrote:With Episode III, the conclusion of the cinematic Star Wars saga brought the shadowy Sith into the spotlight and to the top of the public’s mind. Dark villains in previous works were usually called dark siders, Dark Jedi, dark adepts, or some other descriptor that set them apart from true Sith Lords. As long as Darth Vader and Darth Sidious lived, no other villain could capably don the Sith Lord mantle

-A Closer Look at Dynasty of Evil wrote:Only a Sith who has taken down her own Master can become Dark Lord of the Sith. So when Bane suddenly vanishes, Zannah must find him -- possibly even rescue him -- before she can kill him. And so she pursues her quarry from the grim depths of a ravaged world on the brink of catastrophe to the barren reaches of a desert outpost, where the future of the dark side's most powerful disciples will be decided, once and for all, by the final, fatal stroke of a lightsaber.

-Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith #6 wrote:"I now complete your initiation to the power of the dark side...so that you may bring to pass the great destiny foretold...Exar Kun, because of you, the Sith will never die...you have rightly earned the title of...Dark Lord of the Sith!"

- Heritage of the Sith wrote:though it would take nearly 1,000 years before one worthy of the Dark Side legacy would discover them and rise up to champion our cause once again

And its made clear in The Tenebrous Way that Tenebrous did not correctly don the mantle from his Master

The Tenebrous Way wrote:Once his analysis had been parsed to its nth degree, polished into a gem perfect beyond the possibility of flaw, Tenebrous had devoted every second of every day of his life to fulfilling his plan. Nothing would be left to chance. He had exterminated his doddering Master with his customary efficiency, and had embarked immediately on a decades-spanning quest for an apprentice of his own. And not just an apprentice, but the apprentice:

Doddering = moving in a feeble or unsteady way, especially because of old age.

Lucas says it never worked out properly, again I don't doubt the power of the dark side growing with each generation, but not everyone donned the mantle to hold the power

George Lucas wrote:And the more powerful of the two decided, "You're my apprentice, I'm your master. I will pass on my knowledge to you to keep the dark side of the Force alive." But he would keep a close eye on the apprentice. But the arrangement never worked because the apprentice was constantly trying to recruit another person so that the two of them together could be more powerful than their master -- they could kill him and take over.

Not that this matters anyhow seeing as Odan Urr doesn't scale above any of the Banites.

Darthor wrote:This is pretty intuitive given the novel itself but will defend in later posts if addressed by Vaelias
So:
Urr > Prime Nadd >> Tenebrous >>>>> Prime Bane >>> Lord Hoth

The message I got from the Novel was Prime Bane >>> Plagueis and Tenebrous at the time. and Prime Bane > Kun and Ancients, and yeah sure we can delve more into these positions were it pertains to Hoth.

Darthor wrote:1. Urr's scaling above Thon's containing of the Ambria nexus is far better than anything Hoth ever did in his life. Mostly because:
-containing DS nexus itself is extremely hard, far more difficult than using force light on people or spirits
-Ambria is a nexus more powerful than the power needed to cause supernovas, move planets, or destroy star systems
2. Urr's beginning would likely be a sever force technique, followed by other similar techniques, and THEN lightsaber combat. This is bad for Hoth because
-Urr effectively used Sever force against Sith FAR MORE POWERFUL than the brotherhood Sith Hoth was dealing against
-Hoth is a brute who has next to no knowledge on basic force principals, never mind elite powers like sever force
-Urr is one of the top dogs in knowledge and telepathy, but giving him edges in combat
3. Urr directly scale above Hoth:
Urr > Prime Nadd >> Sadow's death Nadd >> Sadow > Tenebrous >>>> Prime Bane >>> Lord Hoth
Urr is simply better than Hoth in every conceivable way, with me doubting he doesn't one-shot with sever force

1- Urr scaling above Thon who scales above ?? and you are using an argument based on ignorance assuming Hoth is below the powers you listed simply because there is no evidence to the contrary. your assuming that Hoth never did anything better than Thon's containing of the Ambria nexus, simply because there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. However, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because we have no evidence of Hoth doing anything better, it doesn't mean that he never did or could anyway so these points are completely out the window
2- The power gap we have established makes this almost impossible and frankly unrealistic for one person to pull off against someone as powerful as Hoth, Kun required like 30,000 Jedi to properly sever and Hoth is far more powerful than Kun  
3-Nope, he doesn't what so ever, we already did a chain above but ill put it here again along with a little conclusion

Hoth > Kaan(the source of BoD power) >>>>>BoD Member >>> Kyle > Valley Jerec >>>> Normal Jerec ~ ROTJ Vader >>>> TFU Vader >> Galen Marek > Desolous ~ combined ancient council >>>>Odan Urr<<<<<< Exar Kun <<<<< Vader <<<<<< Valley Jerec < Kyle <<<<< LaToR and rest of BoD survivors who made the thought bomb <<<<<<< Kaan(the source of their power) <Hoth

To conclude this whole post Lord Hoth operates the same as Yoda in that he is the central figure in which the Jedi Fire is focused and drawn upon, power such that when it is trapped in the Valley along with some weak Sith spirits (Granted these survivors are stronger but that doesn't change the mechanics) is one of the most powerful Nexi ever, Hoth would hold more of the power of the Nexus than Jerec which makes him at least 3 times Vader, whom is a near equal of base Jerec, Valley Jerec is clearly established to be vastly more powerful and Kyle is clearly established to be on his level and too powerful for him to defeat, while at the same time being a mere novice compared to the Sith who created the Thought Bomb, people like Githany who are vastly sub Sirak and Qordis are there mind you and Vader+ Level Kyle Katarn cant hope to surpass them without the dark side, and those guys are all ants compared to Kaan whom is the rival of Hoth yet still inferior, these are the pinnacle of modern combat in the bloodiest hand to hand war ever where the Jedi walk a fine line between light and dark in their desperate attempts for victory which only serves to make them more deadly, there is a well of energy which Tale of the Jedi itself establishes which is growing with the Jedi passings into the force, naturally Lord Hoth would wield Odan Urr's power, unless he is sitting around in the Netherworld doing nothin the lousy bookworm.

Hail his Majesty Lord Hoth!

^{"I much prefer to read history, rather than make it."}

Preface:

I want to start this post off by congratulating Vaelias for his post. It was extremely well-made and very entertaining, and arguably my favorite post of all time. Nonetheless I am not convinced by your argumentation at all. Because while theories and meta-debating are an excellent and refreshing way to view Star Wars, they are unfortunately not applicable for Star Wars debating. What I see when I look at your post are hyper-literal interpretations of quotes that aren’t supposed to be taken literally at all, and said interpretations oftentimes contradict with scaling, authorial intent, basic narrative of a story, and sometimes, common sense itself. There’s quite a few reasons why your theories shouldn’t be applied to IU scaling when it contradicts narrative:
a) Because authors, in the vast vast majority of cases, don’t think in the same way that Star Wars debaters do. When Drew wrote the Path of Destruction he likely wasn’t thinking about how his words when describing Lord Hoth are similar to the way Yoda was written.
b) Because it ignores context. Several part of you post is true when taken at face value but fails utterly when you read into the larger context and narrative of the story, or sometimes, even the context of the passage
c) Because when you try to connect multiple different sources together, you often ignore that the sources are mutually contradictory. I.e. when you try to use the Bane novel coupled with the DF novel to scale Hoth and the BoD astronomically above Kyle Katarn and TOTJ, you then ignore the fact that the brotherhood inferiority is LITERALLY WRITTEN INTO THE NARRATIVE OF THE BANE NOVEL ITSELF as I will expand on later.
So unless Vaelias can prove all the above is false, and his evidence and theories are actually woven into the very narrative of the text, he would then have to engage with the evidence in support of Odan Urr.

Table of Contents

Introitus:

Section 1: Era Comparison

• Jedi Lords vs TOTJ Jedi Order
  

• Brotherhood of Failures vs Ancient Powers
  

Section 2: Lord Hoth Debunked

• Lord Hoth's Limitations
  

• All the Jedi Rey Hoth, All the Sith Palpatine Kaan
  

• Match up analysis: How Urr will ragdoll
  

Section 3: Scaling Chains

• Vaelias' scaling chain breaking
  

• My original chain supporting
  

• New Conservative chain: Margin of error
  

Section 4: Other stuff

• Ambria Stuff
  

• New argument: An appeal to intuition
  

Section 5: Conclusion

• Validity of my case
  

• TL;DR
  

Moving on then:

Section 1: Era Comparison

NSW Jedi vs TOTJ Jedi

In this section I will be comparing the Jedi circa the NSW period to the TOTJ Jedi Masters. It will mostly be split between debunking Vaelias’ broad era comparison arguments as well as providing more proof on TOTJ Masters of the old superiority. In terms of debunking, I will only be responding to the materials that one might deem as even remotely relevant to Odan Urr and the past Jedi as a whole. I will however explain briefly why the contents I ignored are irrelevant, and if Vaelias believes them to be very relevant to the debate I will rebut them in my subsequent post.
Contents I’m not responding to:
1. That the Jedi are “barons” “kings” and “hereditary lords”
2. That the Jedi Lords received a ton of 1v1 training as “protectors”
3. That the army of the light is MASSIVE and accumulated all the Jedi barons, and Farfalla having 300 Jedi under his command, etc. etc.
4. The entire section on how the power of the living force is reliant on the “burning powers of the Jedi”
Why are they respectively irrelevant:
1. This has virtually no connection whatsoever with power. Whether they are “barons” “kings” “hereditary lords” or scholars and warriors is completely irrelevant. It is but a title and has no connection to power.
2. Similarly to 1, virtually all Jedi has 1v1 training as far back as their padawan years. They only go to “classes” during their youngling ages. The training of the Jedi Lords are irrelevant to power unless proven explicitly (something Vaelias failed to do)
3. The number of Jedi in the army of light is irrelevant to the 1v1 combative capabilities of Hoth unless Vaelias can prove he is the accumulation of their power, something Vaelias not only failed to do but is explicitly not supported in the story (something I will expand on)
4. The importance of the “burning fires of the Jedi” on the living force is also completely irrelevant to the greater scheme of this debate.

So with that aside let’s address the arguments that some might see as having even a remote connection with TOTJ:

Vaelias said:
Every Jedi Lord will be trained since they come of the right age, but instead of learning in the temple amongst many others, they are raised and groomed as the sole heirs and protectors of their Jedi faction, its like equating learning in a classroom to one on one tutor sessions, needless to say being raised as a Jedi Lord has its advantages, but thats not all, being trained as heirs and being raised with families of their own, the Jedi of the New Sith Wars did not adhere to the usual emotional restraint we see the Jedi of old and of the PT embrace, taking more of an NJO approach when it comes to light side emotional constraint, and this actually opens new pathways to power, letting power flow through you more easily, they can use love, which is noted to be the most powerful of emotions, and of course emotions are force energies
…
the implication is that the state of the Jedi Order during these times brought to light a new philosophy expounded upon by Master Morrit Ch'gally

Endless Vigil is a source on the canon RPG “force and destiny”. It bears no explicit implications on the rest of the legends universe. It’s also surprising that you consider NJO’s use of love an explicit amp when the era you wank the most (PT), has Jedi that explicitly deny attachment and believes it to be harmful overall (ROTS Novelization, Yoda). What’s more, Lord Hoth in the Bane novel explicitly cites that raging is against the “most basic teachings of our order” which CLEARLY cites that the Jedi Order during the Ruusan campaigns are still against the use of emotions in combat.

“The Army of Light is an instrument of good and justice,” Pernicar told him. “You fear you may have lost your way, but look to the Force and you will know what you must do to find it again.”
“You make it sound so simple,” Hoth said with a slight shake of his head. “Have I really fallen so far that I cannot even remember the most basic teachings of our order?”
“There is no shame in falling,” Pernicar said, standing up. “There is only shame if you refuse to rise once again.”
Path of Destruction

This also lines up with the narrative where the big dynamic character change for Hoth is to GIVE UP ON HIS EMOTIONS and to make up with Farfalla.
To just drive the point home, Morrit Ch’gally actually served the Jedi Council and created his ideologies DURING and AFTER the Ruusan reformations, which means even if you take this source as legitimate, the fact that his transformation of the order happened AFTER the death of Lord Hoth, coupled with the narrative of the Bane novel highlighted above, and it should be pretty clear which theory is better: mine.
-

Vaelias said:
after the damages and losses of the Seventh Battle of Ruusan the Jedi had spent the last thousand years training to refight the last war, indicating that their swordsmanship was still something to be regained after the loses, all their skills knowledge and power was trapped away in the thought bomb after all and never passed on.

This remains irrelevant because:
1. TOTJ isn’t binded by this in any way at all
2. The Jedi in the PT era can still be superior
Once again to drive the point home that the Jedi of the NSW are far weaker than PT, we know firstly that there are alternative quotes for Jedi’s growth in the past thousand years:

And of course we have several quotes for PT Jedi supremacy:

George Lucas wrote:
This is the heyday, the Golden Age of Jedi. We see Jedi in large battle scenes, battling as a large group. We'd never seen that before, it'd always been a couple of Jedi fighting each other.

(credits to Durin)

Speaking of which, you know who else has Jedi supremacy quotes as the “prime of the Jedi” and noted as the Jedi Golden Age? Yes. The TOTJ era. Propagated by Odan-Urr. Oh and they post-dates the quotes mentioned and explicitly mentions the TCW Jedi. So now when we apply quotes we have TOTJ/KOTOR Jedi > PT Jedi > NSW Jedi. Even if you don’t buy TOTJ/KOTOR Jedi Supremacy this NSW Jedi wank should be pretty clearly destroyed
-

Vaelias said:
Which makes sense considering the dark side and corruption of war is the main component here for mega combat growth, something the Jedi didn't have again until the PT, and something that they didn’t really have before either, Hoth walks this very fine line between light and dark yet stays completely committed to the light, a true warrior that only death could stop

Indeed Durge learned their fighting styles and is just stomping people in the Clone Wars left right and centre

Durge is indeed supremely based and extremely skilled. But how much does this has to do with the unique Jedi fighting skills during the NSW and how much does it has to do with his gear, his unique regen that the Jedi has no answer for? In multiple parts of his fights with Jedi in TCW he got speared with a lightsaber or cut his head off, but he ALWAYS regen and attack again. Can the same be said about Lord Hoth? Can he regenerate if his head was cut off by Odan Urr? Can he still be a threat if his force severed? The answer is a resounding no.
If X studied under Y, and X becomes far far more powerful, that doesn’t mean Y is NEARLY as powerful as X necessarily, especially when X has unique advantages. It’s like saying KFV ~ Obi Wan or TCW Anakin < Ulic Qel Droma because he gained a large part of his skills from them both. Hell he learns an UNIQUE WAY TO USE THE FORCE from Ulic. Ik you disagree with both takes.
-

Vaelias said:
with this era being combat taken to its logical extreme

The big problem with this quote being used is that it doesn’t address their power. An army of thousands of Jedi vs Thousands of Sith would probably be more logically extreme in terms of combat than say the Clone Wars, but that doesn’t mean every single person that fought in the NSW is as strong as the people in the Clone Wars. It doesn’t help that the first part of the quote itself refers to their strategic battles instead of individual powers.
-

Vaelias said:
since combat is constantly progressing with the Jedi learning from each encounter throughout history, since Odan Urr's time on to Ruin's and then a millennia of war and none stop fighting to top it off

Firstly, the quote you referenced explains explicitly that it’s referring to character powers from each encounter, and not overall growth of the order. Secondly, the knowledge of the old masters are explicitly lost across:
-The cron supernova destroying the culmination of the TOTJ master’s knowledge
-The Jedi Purge destroying even more of the Jedi’s knowledge
-Among other destructions and wars such as the SWTOR events
So no… There’s no reason this quote means the Jedi order gets consistently stronger when all their knowledge are getting consistently destroyed.
-
I think that’s all from Vaelias? Moving on to TOTJ Jedi supremacy:
As most people here probably knows, there’s 2 points of explicit Jedi supremacy as mentioned in KOTOR Campaign Guide:


Source: KOTOR Campaign Guide

And while the overwhelming interpretation of these quotes is overwhelmingly that they refer to KOTOR Jedi, they also include the TOTJ ones. Because for the first quote, the great hyperspace war and the great sith war are literally referenced in the previous passage:

Source: KOTOR Campaign Guide

And the Great Sith War is within the Scope of the sourcebook:

Source: KOTOR Campaign Guide
Taken from KOTOR Campaign Guide
-
What’s more, the Jedi Masters of old are all “great heroes” who then took up scholarly studies, making them the best of both warriors and scholars:

Source: Power of the Jedi
-
Furthermore, knowledge is the cornerstone for both the Republic and the Sith, as it instigates power:

Source: Power of the Jedi

“He understood that power came from knowledge, and his vast fortune had allowed him to assemble the priceless collection of ancient Sith teachings he kept secured in his private library.”
Taken from Dynasty of Evil

And a large reason why the Jedi never had a “dark age” when this knowledge was lost is because of the great Library of Ossus, another TOTJ institution:

Source: Power of the Jedi
And it is thus that the Library of Ossus created the “golden age of the Jedi” during the TOTJ era. But you know when was it stated that the Jedi and the republic suffered a dark age? The NSW era:

“Knight Errant began life when Dark Horse Comics editor Randy Stradley suggested I develop a comic-book series following a lone Jedi Knight in Sith space during the Dark Ages of the Republic a thousand years before The Phantom Menace.”
Taken from Knight Errant

The NSW being the “dark age of the Jedi and the Republic” is also a recurring theme as noted in the Jedi vs Sith sourcebook, the new essential atlas, and multiple other sources, as the last century of the NSW, including the Odion era and the Daiman, as well as… you guessed it… The Hoth era.

So to summarize, while for the NSW Jedi’s favor we have a bunch of hyper-literal theories that are debunked, the TOTJ were the Jedi in their prime. The epic heroes of the past mixed with the great scholars creating an “golden age of the Jedi”, while the NSW happened in the age of the Dark Age of the Republic and the Jedi Order. It’s made abundantly clear that the arguments in favor of TOTJ masters superiority is far far far more explicit compared to vice versa.

Brotherhood of Failures vs the Ancient Powers

Once again I’ll be going over what Vaelias talked about in terms of the Sith comparison between the eras and once again demonstrate why the Sith of old are vastly superior:

Vaelias said:
And Kaan's spirit escapes the thought bomb

Actually the authorial intent in the Rule of two is that Qordis and Kaan are conjured up by his subconscious. Which makes sense because that quote is so obviously not accurate and Qordis was killed BEFORE the thought bomb:

“The reply seemed to satisfy whatever part of his subconscious was conjuring up the image, because Qordis abruptly disappeared.”
Darth Bane Rule of Two

Anyways this is also irrelevant overall to this fight but just to quickly note that the actual novel think of their “escape” differently, and the novel has far more officially than the fact file
-

Vaelias said:
Not only does this mean that Kaan's power is close to the power of the Thought bomb, enough to resist it, but also that the Sith component in the power of the Valley of the Jedi is minute, the power of the Valley mainly comes from the Jedi Spirits, since the power source for the Sith is not actually trapped in the Thought Bomb

Couple of things here:
1. Kaan didn’t escape the thought bomb according to the most relevant sources (Bane Novel)
2. Kaan isn’t the component of the Brotherhood as I will explain later
3. The Sith are still very present in the thought bomb
-

Vaelias said
but is still a complete novice compared to Tal, LaToR and the rest of the Brotherhood of Darkness who created the Thought Bomb, there's also the implication that Kyle would have to go to the dark side to surpass LaToR, Kaan's 5th strongest guy
So there is a pretty big gap there between Kyle and any of the Brotherhood Sith of whom's power is made up of portions of Lord Kaan's, in fact they simply cant resist Kaan's calling

the calling which Kaan can casually do on a whim through his connection to all the Brotherhood etc

Alright several things to talk about here
1. Novice =/= less powerful. Novice refers to explicitly “a person new to or inexperienced in a field or situation”. (google translate). Inexperienced refers to “having little knowledge or experience of a particular thing.” So if we take this interpretation in as meaning power then KFV is a novice compared to Odan Urr too.
2. Nothing in the quote you posted instigates that he has to go to the Dark Side to surpass LaTor
3. This quote in of itself fundamentally contradicts your own argument. If the DS powers that have a “large resident” is enough to kill Kyle Katarn if not for the Jedi presence, that means that the DS forces are still very very relevant in the valley. So either you have to accept that:
-Kaan didn’t escape the thought bomb rendering that feat useless
-Or that Kaan’s escape isn’t enough to subjugate the DS powers in the valleys which remains very very relevant, meaning that Kaan isn’t their source of power after all
OR you can just say both are true, which is probably the best interpretation given the available sources
-
Now that this is over, let’s go over how the Ancient Sith are far far far far far more powerful than the brotherhood:
Generic inferiority:
The Sith Brotherhood are noted as “weak”, “simpering lords”, “an abomination”, “disgusting”, “sickly assemblage of mewling sycophants”, who are “not deserving of the Ancient’s power and wisdom” and “the true potency of the Dark Side” (1)
Darth Theory:
The Sith Lords of the time are explicitly “not deserving of the Darth title” due to “the lack of power” and “cowardice”. The Darth title explicitly states it is a title of power. (2)
Equality Theory:
Lord Kaan created the Brotherhood as equals which leads to the impossibility for any of them being strong (3)

The Ancient Powers:
Unlike the weak Brotherhood, the Ancients are noted repeatedly as “powerful”, the “great lords of the past”, and in the very sentence where he calls Freedon Nadd a “great Sith Master” he also calls Qordis a “so called Sith Lord”. Furthermore, Darth Revan’s holocron was stated to have more knowledge than the entire Brotherhood archive, made of Ancient knowledge, which Bane and Githany both stated to be above the teachings of the actual Sith in the Brotherhood. Furthermore Freedon Nadd’s holocron will take Bane “months, maybe years” to study when Bane already is far far superior to Lord Kaan massively. (4)

To top this section off, I want to further note that Ancient Sith superiority over the brotherhood is VERY INGRAINED IN THE NARRATIVE OF THE BANE NOVEL as the plot of the entire first part of the book is literally Bane figuring out that the brotherhood are all wrong and went to the gather the knowledge of the superior Ancient Sith instead.

You might argue, oh but that’s just the big named Ancients. Well yes, but the average Sith at the time of the great hyperspace war is the culmination of 1000 years of growth from cross-breeding between the Exiles and the Sith with the sole purpose of creating more powerful offspring:

Oh and funny enough, as noted in my first post, they are also part of the golden age of the Sith.
TLDR:
A quick summary of this section:
-The Jedi of the NSW wank are either based on hyper-literal interpretations of quotes, outright false, or utterly irrelevant
-TOTJ was the Jedi at their “prime” and “golden age”, while the NSW Jedi are in their “dark ages”
-The Ancient Sith’s superiority to any member of the Brotherhood BY FAR is a concept very very ingrained into the narrative of the Bane novel
-The Average Sith during Odan Urr’s time was the culmination of 1000 years of cross-breeding to increase power and are part of the Sith Golden Age who “continued to grow under Ragnos”
-Odan Urr was the “Yoda of the Jedi” and the “Bane of the Sith”:



So not only is the TOTJ era superior to the Bane era in every way possible, Odan Urr was the absolute top dog of his era.

[placeholder]
also I reserve the right to edit the above posts until after the entirety of my post is released

Section 2: Lord Hoth debunked:

This section will be me debunking all the Vaelias materials raised for Lord Hoth as well as additional materials on debunking his power.

Lord Hoth’s limitations:

Holy shit I love this name. Anyways, while Vaelias might paint the picture that Lord Hoth is a limitless god who is literally superior to the entirety of the Brotherhood. Not only is this obviously wrong because he was LOSING THE WAR and asked Farfalla for reinforcements, and only won the war with said reinforcements, but there are not one, but two instances in the novel that places a HARD CAP on Lord Hoth’s power.
Firstly, Lord Hoth failed to defeat an ambush team:

“Yet he knew it wasn’t trackers they had to worry about. He cast out with the Force, trying to sense hidden enemies lying in wait in the trees ahead. Nothing. Of course if there were any Sith, they would be projecting false images to conceal themselves for their—
“Ambush!” one of the points screamed, and then the Sith were upon them. They came from everywhere: warriors wielding lightsabers, soldiers armed with blasters and vibroblades. The clash of durasteel and the hiss of crossing energy blades mingled with the screams of the living and the dying: screams of rage and triumph; of agony and despair.
A volley of blasterfire ripped through his lines, taking down those Padawans too inexperienced to deflect the shots. A second volley tore through the melee. The bolts ricocheted wildly as Sith and Jedi alike batted them aside, doing little real harm but adding to the chaos. Lord Hoth stood in the thickest of the fighting, hewing down foes foolish enough to come in range of his fierce weapon. His nostrils were filled with the greasy-sweet stench of charred flesh, and a wall of bodies was mounting around him. And still they kept coming, swarming over him like carrion beetles on a fresh kill, seeking to drag him down by sheer numbers.
Pernicar vanished beneath the sea of enemies, and Hoth redoubled his efforts to reach his fallen friend. He was unstoppable in his fury, like the devastating storms of the Maw itself. When he reached him, Pernicar was already dead. Just as the rest of them soon would be.”
Taken from Path of Destruction

A few things to note about this passage:
-Lord Hoth would be absolutely bloodlust, as he was trying to save his best friend: pernicar. So Lord Hoth will have NO HOLDING BACK power whatsoever. This gives us a pretty good gauge of what will happen when he’s all-out.
-Lord Hoth gained an additional rage amp, said rage amps makes him “redouble his efforts” and “unstoppable in his fury”. While this is obviously great hype, it shows us his power BEYOND the normal boundaries of his power. Further note that he is unlikely to enter this stage against Urr as I will explain later
-While this is a large number of Sith, they are made mostly off the weak Sith Lord who aren’t even deserving to be in the weak Brotherhood of Failures + random soldiers. Note also that the Army of Light, which Vaelias quantified to us of having a huge number, split into 3 canvarans, so Hoth would be fighting with one third of his troops.
-Despite all the above, Hoth not only fails to save his best friend Pernicar with his absolute bloodlust and rage amp, but he himself will lose the battle too if not for Farfalla’s reinforcements.

From this we can gauge the true extent of Lord Hoth’s power, which is that while rage amped blood lusted and with the help of ⅓ of the army of light he will still definitely lose to an ambush.

But perhaps more accurately gauging the quantification of his power is when he decides how many Jedi to send with him into the thought bomb:

“Surely you’re not going in alone?” he protested.
“I wish I could,” Hoth replied. “But if I do the Dark Lords will simply take me down with their lightsabers. That would solve nothing. Kaan has to see that his only choice is to surrender or …” He left the thought unspoken.
“You’ll need enough Jedi to convince the Brotherhood that a physical battle would be hopeless. At least a hundred. Any less and he won’t detonate the thought bomb.”
…
“He selected exactly ninety-nine others to go with him. The decision was agonizingly difficult. If he took less, the Sith might be able to fight their way out of the cave and escape, only to detonate their thought bomb somewhere else. But the more he took, the more Jedi lives he might be needlessly throwing away.”
Path of Destruction

Again to break down this quote:
-Again, Lord Hoth will be analyzing the absolute MINIMUM of the Jedi he needs. Every Jedi he takes are going to die. Meaning he needs a MINIMUM of 99 Jedi to ensure victory
-The quote also places a hard cap on Lord Hoth’s power. He is explicitly stated to be incapable of defeating the Sith brotherhood all by himself. This goes against and contradict Vaelias’ narrative
-The Sith left for Kaan to abuse are very little. Most of the Sith has died. Qordis, Githany, Kopecz, and Ka’sim are all not there. So the most powerful of the brotherhood are dead already.

Meaning, again when we calculate and accurately gauge the absolute maximum of Lord Hoth’s power: we know:
1. Him with absolute bloodlust, a rage amp, and ⅓ of his army is incapable of beating an ambush.
2. His absolute max power is completely incapable of defeating the small amount of brotherhood left in the thought bomb, and requires AT LEAST 99 other Jedi.

So no, the Hoth = Entire Jedi Army > Entire Sith Brotherhood logic is complete and utter bullshit given these 2 very explicit caps on his power.

All the Jedi Rey Hoth, All the Sith Palpatine Kaan

Obviously the most important argumentation that came from Vaelias, I will be addressing all the arguments from him that might be attributed to the idea that Hoth is “all the Jedi” and Kaan is “all the Sith”.
Let’s first address the “all the Sith” part

Vaelias said:
All those spirits are imprisoned, both dark and light, however all the Sith spirits are weak and are powered by Kaan

Missing context/hyper-literal interpretation counter: 1
^^^
I will be keeping this counter through-out this argument to see just how many of it are based on assertions or hyper-literal interpretations.
Anyways, on the argument itself:
Note several things:
The broader context of the passage and the novel is that the Sith morale is low, and they are suffering defeat. This means that quotes like “low of spirit” and “broken spirits” are written FIGURATIVELY and not that their spirit is literally broken.
To break somebody spirits is “to destroy someone’s feeling of determination”
This will be important later
When we take the broader context of the novel, it was repeatedly noted that Lord Kaan uses subtle manipulations of emotions to make people feel inspired or vice versa

“He could change the course of a war with his battle meditation. He could inspire loyalty in the other Lords through subtle manipulations of their emotions. But he had never experienced a premonition like the one that had brought her to his tent in the middle of the dark night.”
…
“Lord Kaan knew he was no match for Bane, either physically or through the power of the Force. Yet he wasn’t about to surrender so easily. Not while he still had cunning, guile, and his unique talents of persuasion on his side.”
Path of Destruction

So yea no the narrative of the novel suggests he was trying to inspire them by subtle manipulations of their emotions instead of outright connection to their spirit.
-

Vaelias said:
Not only does this mean that Kaan's power is close to the power of the Thought bomb, enough to resist it, but also that the Sith component in the power of the Valley of the Jedi is minute, the power of the Valley mainly comes from the Jedi Spirits, since the power source for the Sith is not actually trapped in the Thought Bomb

Missing context/hyper-literal interpretation counter: 2
?????
The context of the passage you cited was literally talking about Jerec, not Kaan.

“Come - let's find Jerec."
"That shouldn't be too hard," Jan replied. "Look! "
Kyle looked and saw shafts of light shoot upward to play across the ceiling.
They ran in that direction. Jan ducked as a screamer howled by her head.
"What was that?"
"Don't worry about it," Kyle responded. "It can't hurt you."
"Can't hurt you, can't hurt you, can't hurt you," a chorus of voices echoed, only to be supplanted by a tidal wave of incomprehensible babble that closed around them. Many of the spirits were insane, having lost track of reality during eons of imprisonment, but some were not. They offered conflicting advice.
"Refuse the dark side, boy."
"Leave us! Flee while you can!"
"Fight him, son, for there is no alternative."
There were other voices as well - some of which spoke alien tongues - but none as clear as the one from within.
"To know where evil grows and permit it to flourish is to accept responsibility for all that follows."
A mound appeared in front of them. It marked the center of the Valley and the point from which the rays of light emanated. Someone had left footprints in the soft soil, and Kyle followed them up onto the mound. Jan followed. The light, which had grown more intense, strobed upward and splashed across the rocky ceiling.
Kyle could "feel" the power gathering around him and knew time was running out.
"Stop him!" a disembodied voice begged. "Stop him before he enslaves the billions we fought to defend! Even now he strengthens the bonds that hold us here!
He plans to feed on us, to take our power, to use it for evil!”
Taken from: Dark Forces: Jedi Knights

So uh how tf is this relevant to Kaan representing all the Sith?
Also it was noted literally 5 times in the novel that the image of Kaan and Qordis was "conjured up by his mind" and part of his "subconscious", so even the Kaan is powerful enough to leave logic fails utterly. (5)
-

Vaelias said:
the calling which Kaan can casually do on a whim through his connection to all the Brotherhood etc

????
The calling of Kaan works not because of some sort of “spiritual connection” between him and the Sith but because of his telepathic ability:

He had promised them victory, as he had done so many times before. And, as they had always done in the past, the Brotherhood had followed him once again. Followed him here to this cave, though Githany wasn't sure if it was more accurate to say they had been led-or lured. She had followed him along with everyone else, compelled by the passion of his words and the sheer magnitude of his personality and presence. All thoughts that he might be unstable or unfit to lead them had been forgotten in the heady pilgrimage through the night to the shelter of this cave.
Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

Notice that this is different from Luke’s warning of the Jedi all around the universe, because as noted above, Lord Kaan uses “subtle manipulations of their emotions” to slowly dominate their minds. This is why we have always seen Kaan “promise them victory” for multiple times as noted in the above quote. This coupled with the subtle manipulations quote seems to suggest that he uses slow propaganda as well as a small tuck of the force to subtly manipulate their emotions instead of outright domination, as then he wouldn’t have to “promise them victory” he just has to force them to do whatever he says.
Meaning that not only does this fail to prove your “spiritual connection” theory, but the analogy with Luke is also false.
-
Moving on then to the “all the Jedi theory”. I’ll be rebutting this in 4 main ways:
1. Rebutting the validity of your evidence and pointing out how they don’t support your claims
2. Why even if they do it’s against the narrative of the story overall
3. Why even if it’s not it’s not applicable in a debate
4. Even if all the above is false, this can be flipped to support Odan Urr as well anyways
Note the 4 layered case that you would have to win on all 4 clashes to win this argument.
Let’s look at Vaelias’ argumentation then:

Vaelias said:
The Brotherhood is just a Dark Parody of the Jedi Order, so much like Kaan with the Sith, Hoth is the collective spirit of the Jedi, Firstly, we see this demonstrated  his spirit being broken by each Jedi death.

Missing context/hyper-literal interpretation counter: 3
????
Aside from the obvious, i.e. the sentence isn’t supposed to be taken literally, we need to look at CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT and also narrative.
For context, it was noted several times in the novel that the reason Hoth was broken in spirit is because he feels the stress and pressure of Jedi dying so he feels stressed. This is reiterated everywhere through-out the story, for example he can’t sleep the day before the final battle, or the dream of pernicar, etc. etc.
Furthermore, as noted before, broken spirits is a FIGURATIVE SENTENCE meaning to destroy someone’s feeling of determination, it does NOT mean that the spirit of Hoth is LITERALLY dying, a notion that isn’t supported ANYWHERE in the story.
-

Vaelias said:
It must be understood that anger can be funneled through the body and released near the heart at the "vital gate"
-Book of Sith

????
Your quote says that’s where ANGER is released, not spirit. And again his spirit literally dying is taking a figurative statement hyper-literally.
-

Vaelias said:
We see how the Jedi Order functions with Yoda, The Jedi making up his spirit and his spirit dying with each death

Check above. This is another statement that doesn’t mean literally. Broken spirit is a term. For example: “by defeating the lakers in the finals, Bill Russel broke the spirits of the Lakers fan for once and for all”. This quote obviously doesn’t literally mean that the Lakers fan’s spirits got broken. It’s a saying.
-

Vaelias said:
indeed the language here in their final confrontation mirrors each others

???
No it doesn’t.
Avatar means: “an incarnation, embodiment, or manifestation of a person or idea.”
Defender means: “a person who defends someone or something.”
Do I really really have to stress how absolutely different somebody who literally embodies the light side is from somebody who defends it?
Hopefully not
-
Since most of your evidence for Yoda doesn’t really discuss the concept that he has a spiritual connection, but that he has a profound importance on the Jedi order so his death / killing him will obviously have a profound impacts on the Jedi Order. I also want to preface here that I’m not necessarily against this theory, and it’s truthfulness REALLY doesn’t affect the debate, but I would say that to a neutral audience that’s probably not convincing enough, and you would have to prove it more explicitly than what you did.

Vaelias said:
but how does this concept work exactly? we get more insight on this concept with Yoda, where we learn that this is because Yoda has a force connection to the entire order, killing Yoda will sever all those bonds, breaking Yoda's spirit, thus cutting the Jedi off from the light side of the force, if you sever Yoda, you sever the light side

All Jedi have a connection to Yoda, in the force all Jedi have threads flowing from them to Yoda, Dooku does too, but he went to the dark side, and his thread is a direct path to Yoda spirit

The “thread” between Dooku and Yoda probably refers to their private relationship that they were close to each other, not some time of spiritual connection. As noted in the quote, Dooku might use this “relationship” to strike at Yoda. This quote doesn’t prove all the Jedi have some sort of spiritual connection with everybody else.
-

Vaelias said:
Yoda is the point where all those Jedi threads cross, like seen here, which is what the Sith are doing in S6 trying to corrupt Yoda through that link fog him out and cut off all his threads

Sure but the quotes you cited seems to be talking more at the fact that the force in of itself is interwoven in threads instead of some spiritual connection between the Jedi.
-
Since the rest of your Yoda stuff can be explained that he is the grandmaster, the most powerful member, as well as the most respected, killing him will obviously be a devastating blow to the order. Now then, let’s get back to the Hoth materials:

Vaelias said:
once small islands of light side power, now united as one

??????????????
The “single host” refers to the Army of Light, not Lord Hoth. Yes they all collected to form an army, that doesn’t mean they have some sort of spiritual connection that Lord Hoth benefits from.
-

Vaelias said:
Indeed we see this is a very important concept in Shamanism, the foundation George based the force on in Star Wars

Let’s say this is true, you would have to prove both that
Star Wars took elements specifically for the connection
Even if the connection exists that Hoth will benefit from it
-

Vaelias said:
Indeed we see this with Hoth, drawing strength from these bonds and being the source of hope and victory for the Jedi to where they are screaming his name in service of their ruler, who fills their spirits with emotions forming this web of power, and yeah this is a relationship we just don't see among Jedi, calling him Sire and screaming his name in Glory, these bonds are likely much stronger than most Jedi, this is classic warrior culture

Missing context/hyper-literal interpretation counter: 4
Uhhhhh no.
Firstly, the first quote you used to support this claim is talking about the fact that he takes reassurance from the fact that his followers remain loyal to him, not literal strength in the force. And his soldiers calling his name in respect means what exactly for personal combat again?
-

Vaelias said:
We see some nice imagery of Hoth's commanding presence towering over the others, there's also the implication there that Hoth is the most powerful thing Kyle has ever seen, and he is only a statue , idk about you but this description of Hoth really gives a feel for his place in the AoL and just makes him look so supreme

Ok technically this isn't supporting the theory but I do want to note that THIS DOESNT IN ANY WAY SUGGEST HOTH IS ABOVE ANYBODY KATARN EVER MET!!!
Also sure this is impressive but seeing Odan urr's statue also fills Tionne's heart with pride:

“Bending down to the scorched rubble, Tionne moved aside a fallen cluster of flagstones and found in the shadows beneath a small statue of what must have once been a Jedi Master. The figure was a short, unimposing alien with a sloping, rounded head and exposed teeth. She wondered if it could have been the renowned scholar Jedi Master Odan-Urr, who had fought even earlier, in the Great Hyperspace War against the original Sith Empire, and had then lived for a thousand years as the keeper of the library on Ossus.

Smiling, feeling her heart swell with pride, Tionne cradled the small statue, saw its carbonized and glassy surface layers where the heat of an exploding star had crisped it. She took the figure, astonished to be actually touching a piece of Jedi history,”

Excerpt From: Kevin J. Anderson. “11ABY: Firestorm

Credit to the insane Odan Urr RT (give a star) written by myself
So even if we go on the hype train this isn't above Odan urr at all.
-
Now that we've established that none of what Vaelias said actually supports his theory, let's go on to the even if:
Even if this is true, it's anti-narrative.
Particularly addressing this part of Vaelias' case:

Vaelias said:
lets touch on why I think Hoth is actually better than Kaan, and that is simply because the Jedi were beating the Sith, the Jedi were better, have always been better per Lucas and other EU works, Hoth's forces of light were greater, the Sith near defeated, heres a few quotes for that before we get into what makes Hoth stand out as a warrior

Missing context/hyper-literal interpretation counter: 5
??????????
The first 2 quote you talked about was explicitly referring to the fact that the Sith always doom themself due to infighting, while the last 3 was literally during the period where the Sith are in hiding and didn't reveal themself to the galaxy lolol. Furthermore, as noted before:
ANY NOTION THAT HOTH IS ABOVE THE ENTIRETY OF THE BROTHERHOOD IS BULLSHIT AND COMPLETELY FALSE
We have 2 very explicit cap on Hoth's power, where him with a rage amp and large Jedi forces can't beat a fraction of the Brotherhood. So when Vaelias try to run the theory that Lord Hoth has more "cosmic relevance than the entire brotherhood" or whatever INSTANTLY NEGLECT THE ARGUMENT as the text explicitly goes against such a theory.
-
Even if all that I said above isn't true, let's consider the validity of this argument. What exactly does the spiritual connection encompass? If it's a community source of power that every Jedi can call on, then would Hoth still have said power in this fight? Notice that Vaelias gave NO NUANCE as to how do the Jedi have access to this power. Say that this fight happens on a random deserted planet with NO other Jedi or Sith in the galaxy, can Hoth still have access to the power? Based on what? If it's a community energy field is it based on the other Jedi existing? Based on what if it isn't? Vaelias' own evidence is that he absorbs and represents the power of the army of light, but if they don't exist in the fight can he still use that power?
This calls into question other parts of your posts. For example, if the force or the energy field for the Jedi grows stronger every generation, then wouldn't Hoth benefit from the stronger force? If they are fighting at the same time wouldn't that mean they are using the same energy? If Vaelias sees fit to use the possibility that "the force is stronger in the bygone eras" as a valid rebuttal against Nadd > Tenebrous, then why is the force being stronger in Hoth era not a valid rebuttal to Hoth > Urr? 
The gist of what I said is Vaelias arguments has virtually no nuance whatsoever. He failed utterly to explain how his theory will manifest in this fight, and no elaborations on whether the feats are even applicable in a debate. 
Last but certainly not least:

IMPORTANT:

Probably the most important part of my rebuttal:
If Hoth has access to the power of all the Jedi, why can't Odan Urr? Odan Urr has access to a telepathic link with every Jedi during every assembly:

Source: TCSWE

And is explicitly called the Yoda of his era

Source: Power of the Jedi

So... EVEN IF all I said above isn't true, who would presumably be more likely to have a link to the Jedi similar to Yoda? One that relies on hyper-literal readings of figurative quotes or the one with a telepathic link with the Jedi during every assembly and is explicitly called the Yoda of the era?
Add that to the fact that the TOTJ Jedi are superior to the Bane era Jedi in every way... yea this argument isn't even good for Hoth. 

Hoth vs Urr analysis

I'll be analyzing specifically Hoth's rage, style, and my arguments on sever force.

Vaelias said:
In his rage being noted to be unstoppable even compared to the strength of the Maw itself, which of course is a black hole Cluster, where Abeloth is imprisoned, thats just about as bad ass a comparison as you can get, Hoth is the Maw, Odan is... the great library on Ossus

Several things here.
Firstly, again, that is literally a metaphor. But is Vaelias using hyper-literal readings new to us?
Secondly, note the specific reasons for this rage amp: his friend pernicar is in danger. So if Pernicar isn't in danger here, and Jedi don't rely on rage in combat, can he enter to stage at will? Proof?
Thirdly, yea I bet the Maw can't beat a Sith ambush with 1/3 of the Army of the Light LOL
-

Vaelias said:
Add that to the fact Hoth is a Jedi Battlemaster, who have mastery over many forms of combat and are the best in the Order, and he achieved this in his mid twenties.
after one has mastered all these styles, its a case of refining the styles over the years.[/size]

Oh shit? I might have to concede that Hoth is Jun Seros level now
Also interesting fact I encountered that's not very relevant is that during the ruusan campaigns there are many self-proclaimed battlemasters although hoth is the official one.
-

Vaelias said:
Yeah and look how that turned out, sadly for Odan, he is facing a much more mighty opponent, I think the power gap here is far too great for Odan's sever to do anything if he even managed to get it off on the Battlemaster

Yeah it didn't turn out well for Odan. Fortunately
1. Odan is post-prime
2. Kun's breathing sucks Lord Hoth's life essence into him, his heart beat manifests as physical pain for Lord Hoth, and one touch with him and Lord Hoth explodes.
-

Vaelias said:
Yeah sure Odan Urr is super knowledgeable and he has access to all of this stuff, but technically everyone on the council would have access to this stuff, its not exclusively Odan is it? furthermore The Dark Holocron? sure he has access to it but lets not act as though he has absorbed its power or something, this is clearly something not in his arsenal, which brings up the question, how do we know Odan is a master of all this Jedi information because you can say he has access to them, which I don't doubt, but every Jedi Master does(Or High council member or whatever), so what makes Odan particularly specialist in anything here, aside from being the first to memorize it all or something.

???
1. The Dark Holocron doesn't just contain power, it explicitly contains "Sith knowledge and lore for the past 100,000 years"
2. The reason Odan Urr has unique knowledge is because unlike the other Jedi, he extensively studied the lore with deep meditation and conversations with the council for CENTURIES
3. Yeah sure so what if the entire council has access to the knowledge, ig they're all above Lord Hoth now
-

Vaelias said:
-Lord Hoth might not have shown that no. but that doesn't mean he doesn't know what it is or how to defend against it, unless you can show me some quotes about the knowledge of the sever force ability being lost to the NSW guys then my default assumption is that what is essentially the Jedi Grand Master would have knowledge of it
-Why does that mean Urr has an explicit advantage, Is Hoth stated to be weak against force techniques in combat ? I think the only explicit advantage here is Hoth's vast superiority in swordsmanship and physicality, which you seem to agree with.

1. The simple fact that the NSW Jedi lost power? Should also be noted that the power of the Jedi in the valley that was absorbed into Jerec got sever forced.
2. Why exactly is Hoth superior in combat? You have never proved this

TL;DR

-There are 2 very explicit caps on Lord Hoth's power as implemented in the novel itself, signifying him with a rage amp and 1/3 of the Army of Light can't beat an ambush, and he needs a MINIMUM of 99 Jedi to defeat the Brotherhood, or what remains of it.
-The arguments and evidence from Vaelias on Hoth absorbing the power of the Jedi doesn't work as it's based on hyper-literal readings of figurative quotes
-Even if it does work, his conclusion is explicitly against the narrative of the story
-Even if it's not, the theory is likely not applicable in a versus debate anyways due to the lack of nuance
-Even if it is applicable, Odan Urr has a MUCH GREATER CASE of having access to the pool of powers from a superior era than Hoth anyways

Section 3: Scaling Chains:

Now for the fun part, I'll first be addressing your (lol-worthy) scaling chain, re-inforcing mine, and creating a new one based on more conservative takes. 

Addressing Vaelias' chain

Hoth > Kaan(the source of BoD power) >>>>>BoD Member >>> Kyle > Valley Jerec >>>> Normal Jerec ~ ROTJ Vader >>>> TFU Vader >> Galen Marek > Desolous ~ combined ancient council >>>>Odan Urr<<<<<< Exar Kun <<<<< Vader <<<<<< Valley Jerec < Kyle <<<<< LaToR and rest of BoD survivors who made the thought bomb <<<<<<< Kaan(the source of their power) <Hoth

1. Lord Hoth > Kaan Argument
As noted above in my post, Lord Hoth' superiority to Lord Kaan is based on ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Not only is the theory that Lord Hoth is "all the Jedi" and Lord Kaan is "all the Sith" in of itself based on nothing, but the Jedi > the Sith is also false given the quotes you talked about was either addressing infighting or about the Jedi during the age where the Sith are LITERALLY IN HIDING. So no Lord Hoth DOESNT scale above Kaan in any shape or form, and neither is Lord Kaan the source of the BoD power. I will however be willing to accept that Lord Hoth is superior to the average BoD member but the gap is far from what you make it be. 

2. BoD Members > Kyle Katarn 
The problem here is that being a "novice" doesn't mean less power. As I explained before. Also noting that since I already established that the Ancients are FAR FAR more powerful than the brotherhood, then the Ancients will also scale massively above Kyle Katarn

3. Kyle > Jerec > Vader
The issue here is your equalization of Kyle drawing on the valley's power to sever the force of Jerec as his base self defeating amped Jerec. Here's their fight as explained in the novel:

“Suddenly, Kyle knew that the number didn't matter - that the light side offered more than enough power for any task he would be called upon to do, and that knowledge was the key.
The Jedi closed his eyes, resisted the temptation to look at the light that strobed against his eyelids, and sent a series of commands. He gathered the Force around him, shaped it into a protective cocoon, and sealed Jerec within.
Jerec felt a sense of warmth and peace as the cocoon of light formed around him.
It was a wonderful sensation - and one he enjoyed, until something went wrong. The Jedi fell, struggled to stay aloft, and fell again. Something, or someone, had cut his access to the dark side of the Force...
Who? How? The Dark Jedi fought to break through and knew it was too late.”
Dark Forces-Jedi Knights

So no the brotherhood don't scale above Jerec. 
Note also that Jerec rivaling Vader doesn't necessarily mean he is close in any meaningful capacity. Royal guards are stated to rival him in skills but then got stomped by him later. Jerec is capped below Sedriss who is capped below Ossus!Ood Bnar who while drawing on a far far far more powerful source (Ossus before the life force getting destroyed by Cron Supernova) can at best hope for a stalemate with Kun. This line of scaling goes nowhere.

4. Galen Marek > Desolus > Odan Urr
Oh yeah Desolus' fight vs the Jedi Council was stated to be a fight between armies...

Desolous' rampage led to the slaughter of nearly two thousand Jedi, but eventually he grew overconfident. Desolous confronted a small force of Jedi on Yaga Minor, but these Knights were simply bait to draw the killer into a tactically disadvantageous position. When Desolous attacked, a large Jedi Fleet appeared out of hyperspace, preventing Desolous' retreat. Outnumbered and outmatched, Desolous' army was destroyed and the Sith Lord was finally struck down.

The Force Unleashed Databank

Darth Plagueis, Plagueis wrote:If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and holocrons, the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish this. But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras?

Dark Empire Audiodrama wrote:

Leia: Where am I?

Bodo: Everywhere and nowhere. You are with the Force.

Leia: Bodo Baas, am I... inside the holocron?

Bodo: No, the holocron is a device. It helps us to reach each other. It is the force which truly brings us together.

Leia: And you... Are you real? I mean, didn't you die a long time ago?

Bodo: Past history and present action are one. The force surrounds all time, all doing. Bodo Baas is with the force, that is certain.

Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:

The only certain truth is that the Force exists and is omnipresent, and that’s enough for most who study its various influences.

The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force wrote:

You already know of the Force as omnipresent, simultaneously existing as both a personal energy and as an imposing power through its Living and Unifying aspects.

The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force wrote:

The Force is timeless, but we Jedi have not always been present to interpret its teachings.

The Clone Wars wrote:

Yoda: See the future, you can?

Qui-Gon Jinn: I exist where there is no future or past.

This theory is also supported in the Drew verse, when RoT explicitly calls the force infinite:

“But while the Force may have been infinite, her ability to draw upon it was not.”
Rule of Two

2. We also have the fact that Vader explicitly doesn't have Kun's power and knowledge as they were lost

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:
"The dark knowledge of the Sith teachings died with Kun, it is extremely unlikely that any records survive, either on Yavin IV or elsewhere."

3. Proof that being the next DLoTS after somebody else, when the force explicitly doesn't grow, and their power is lost, actually means superiority?
Furthermore, as noted explicitly, the power of individuals cannot be passed on:

OOF

So... Virtually every part of your scaling chain is based on unfound premises which gets more and more ridiculous until you reach the connection with Odan Urr which is basically completely false. We also have both the narrative portrayal of Ancients > Brotherhood as well as anti-scaling such as Vader >>>>> Darth Bane >> Lord Hoth that I will expand on in my next post

Solidifying my scaling chain:

Urr > Prime Nadd >> Tenebrous >>>>> Prime Bane >>> Lord Hoth

1. Urr vs Nadd

Vaelias said:
You seem to be operating on X did this but Y didnt so X is > Y, Logic, when absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, and from what we have been though Im inlined to believe that since Hoth scales vastly above, should he wish I could replicate the feats of those weaker than him. The power Thon contained was not in the slightest as powerful as the ritual used to create it so is the power Thon contained even > Nadd ? is Thon even close to that power ? where are the links here and how does any of this connect to Hoth? even if Urr is Nadd where does that get Urr ?

You have offered nothing of REMOTE SUBSTANTIATION here. I will elaborate on the Ambria stuff later but note
-Urr scales above Ambria which scales above Nadd
-Urr scales above Arca who overpowered Nadd's tomb
-Urr has statistical superiority over the Nadd who retained his power
-Urr likely defeated Nadd anyways
Since you engaged with only one of the above, I'm inclined to believe this is more or less a concession

2. Prime Nadd >> Tenebrous
You "attempt" at a rebuttal here is nothing but further proof you didn't even read the passage. Let's look at the passage in question:

-Darth Plagueis wrote:
While midi-chlorians appeared to resist manipulation of a sort that might imperil the balance of the Force, they remained passive, even compliant, in the case of a weak-willed being manipulated by one who was strong in the Force. Perhaps that explained why it was often easier to call on the Force to heal someone other than oneself. Extending life, then, could hinge on something as simple as being able to induce midi-chlorians to create new cells; to subdivide at will, increasing their numbers into the tens of thousands to heal or replace damaged, aging, or metastatic cells. Midi-chlorians had to be compelled to serve the needs of the body; to bestow strength when needed; to overcome physical insult, or prevent cells from reaching senescence.

If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and holocrons, the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish this. But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras? Some commentators claimed that the ability to survive death had been limited to those with a talent for sorcery and alchemy, and that the use of such practices actually predated the arrival of the Dark Jedi exiles on Korriban. But sorcery had been employed less to extend life than to create illusions, fashion beasts, and resurrect the dead. Powerful adepts were said to have been able to saturate the atmosphere of planets with dark side energy, compel stars to explode, or induce paralysis in crowds, as Exar Kun apparently did to select members of the Republic Senate. Other adepts used sorcery merely as a means to better understand ancient Sith spells and sigils.

Darth Bane had referred to sorcery as one of the purest expressions of the dark side of the Force, and yet he hadn’t been able to harness those energies with near the skill as had his onetime apprentice Zannah. Bane’s disciples, however, believed that he had experimented with a technique of even greater significance: that of essence transfer, which he had learned after acquiring and plundering the holocron of Darth Andeddu, and which involved the relocation of an individual’s consciousness into another body or, in some cases, a talisman, temple, or sarcophagus. Thus had the most powerful of the ancient Sith Lords survived death to haunt and harass those who would infiltrate their tombs.

To break down this quote:
1. Plagueis first noted that the Ancient Sith were capable of achieving midichlorian manipulation, and thus they are either more powerful than him, or benefits from the power of the bygone eras.
2. Plagueis then noted the counter-argument that they used sorcery for this, but stated that sorcery is for other stuff, indicating that the reason for their success is ONE OF THE 2 CHOICES HE GAVE AND NOT SORCERY
You seem to be using Plagueis refuting of a counter-argument of the Ancient's superiority as explicit proof that they aren't superior lol.
-

Vaelias said:
The ancients could heal themselves, had they been more powerful? well actually it was talented sorcerers and they used sorcery less to extend life and more to create illusions and cast spells, Bane couldnt do this but he had essence transfer which is of greater significance and the most powerful Sith used it. This quote actually puts Bane above the Sith who merely used their sorcery to cast spells and create illusions (one of which listed for that is Kun). Also I have no doubt that the more prominent dark side in the galaxy would have helped back then, dark side surrounding you everywhere, certainly more helpful for sorcery than the 'gust of wind' of dark side that is in the galaxy in Plag's time considering sorcery is literally pulling the force from around you and back out again, more darkness surrounding you in war kinda helps lol but that doesnt make them more powerful, after all its 'were they more powerful orrrr had the dark side been more prominent??' well for one yes the more dark side unleashed at the time deffo helped. this excerpt puts Bane above Kun, who one shots Nadd and Odan Urr. not to mention Bane surpasses Nadd explicitly in Bane of Sith and Path of Destruction, but we can get more into this as we go on.

??????????????????????????????????????
NO?????
The Ancients could manipulate midichlorians, meaning that they are genuinely more powerful. Plagueis then noted that the ability to survive death was NOT BECAUSE OF UNIQUE TALENTS IN SORCERY BUT because of genuine force superiority. The idea that this excerpt can be used to put Bane above the Ancients is genuinely laughable and not only make me question whether you read the blog but moreso the PASSAGE ITSELF. Or this can be attributed to lack of reading comprehension. Either option is far worse than what I expected from you Vaelias.
Oh and when Plagueis said "the most powerful of the Ancient Sith Lords" he isn't talking about Bane, he's talking about Sadow and Kun. There is no reason for you to doubt the validity of Plagueis here. He noted that the Ancient Sith Lords can extend their life, and he stated that it's either because they are more powerful, or because it's that the force was stronger back then. He is also an expert in the area giving him credibility. Your utterly false interpretation of the quote would be completely apparent to anybody who read the blog or even the passage. Furthermore, Ant also noted in his blog that the force being stronger back then means that they are still superior, and given you EXPLICITLY USED the force being stronger in Hoth's era as proof of his superiority you have no room to question this. Oh and the Nadd vs Bane thing will be examined later.

3. Tenebrous vs Bane

Vaelias said:
28 links of the Dark Side growing stronger with each generation, but not 28 links of Sith Masters actually coming to embody that power per the doctrine "One to embody the power another to crave it" and some kill their Masters when they are still craving it, you cant be the Dark Lord until you actually earn the mantle and take out your master in his prime as its meant to be, the power will not favor you otherwise, will not pass to you

Ok so to break down your rebuttal here, you're basically questioning the validity of the RoT scaling because apprentices might kill their master before hand. Let's address this:
Quotes in support:

"As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation." - Episode 1: The Phantom Menace Scrapbook

"Ultimately, Bane's plan produced more powerful Sith Lords with each generation." - Force and Destiny

These are the quotes affirmation generational growth, let's look at quotes that support Banite upscale in general: (6)

The probability:
Darth Bane was noted as a mega prodigy, who without any training is capable of willing his father to death. However Darth Zannah's potential blows his out of the water, and so on (7)
This means that every padawan has the potential to surpass their master, meaning even if they defeated their master illegitimately they will probably continue to exceed them. We saw this with Gean and Gravid.
Either way, the amount of sources and quotes supporting Banite upscale, as well as authorial intent, is enough to reduce opposition of this argument to rubble.

4. Bane > Hoth
Since you didn't address this I'll be taking this as a concession

New Conservative Scaling Chain

When responding to me Nadd >> Tenebrous argument, Vaelias mentioned the fact that in RoT Bane stated his power matches up to the Ancients. The specific excerpt can be found here:

“Was it possible there was some other essential element in the process that he was missing? Was there one more secret waiting to be unlocked that would finally allow him to create a Holocron so he could pass his wisdom and knowledge on to his successors? Or was the failure in him? Did he simply lack power? Was his command of the dark side somehow less than that of the ancient Sith Lords like Freedon Nadd?
It was an uncomfortable line of speculation, but it was one Bane forced himself to consider. He had read the histories of the great Sith Lords; many were filled with feats almost too incredible to be believed. Yet even if these accounts were true, even if some of his predecessors had had the ability to use the dark side to destroy entire worlds or make a sun go nova, Bane still felt that his power measured up to the described abilities of many of those who had successfully created Holocrons of their own.”
Rule of Two

Why is this helpful for me you might wonder? Well 2 things:
1. For Darth Bane to even CONSIDER the possibility that Nadd is genuinely more powerful than him in of itself suggests parity. So the absolute baseline power of Freedon Nadd is still on the level of RoT Bane
2. Darth Bane believed his power "measured up" to the Ancient Sith, again indicating at least some level of parity.
Imagine a scenario that if Qordis, Lord Kaan or Lord Hoth made a holocron and Bane couldn't, it's barely possible for Bane to even consider the possibility that they are genuinely superior to him, he will only consider the fact that there's a technique he doesn't know. This is because Bane is just SO FAR ABOVE THEM IN POWER that the notion that they are superior to him is just not possible.

The reason this is incredibly important is because:
With just 2 orbalisks Darth Bane is already feeling a power more than he has ever felt:

“In addition to his miraculous healing abilities, he felt stronger than he ever had.”
...
“Bane reached inward to call upon the dark side, drawing it not only from himself but also from the orbalisks fastened to his chest and back. Feeling an incredible surge of power beyond any he had known before, he released it in a burst of energy. ”
Rule of Two

And then over a decade, the orbalisks covered his entire face:

“Over the past decade, the orbalisks that had attached themselves to Bane’s torso had spread until they covered virtually his entire body.”
Rule of Two

And even after this point, he still considers the possibility of Nadd being superior to him.
So we know that EVEN IN THE MOST CONSERVATIVE ARGUMENT POSSIBLE
Odan Urr > Freedon Nadd ~< Full Body Orbalisk Darth Bane >>>> 2 Orbalisk Darth Bane > Firestorm!Darth Bane ~ Power of the entire Brotherhood >>>> Lord Hoth

Note that for this argument to even matter you would have to either defeat the Nadd >> Tenebrous case or successfully rebut the Banite upscale, neither of which you succeeded.
Note also that Plagueis' musing has far more credibility than Bane's because:
-He just has more knowledge as he would have all of Bane's knowledge plus the culmination up to his point
-He is an expert in his area, where he has spent a shit ton of time "meditating" to how to extend life, while Bane is evidently not the expert in his field.

So the original progressive chain of
Odan Urr > Freedon Nadd > Darth Tenebrous >>> Darth Bane >>>> Lord Hoth still stands
and even if you successfully refuted it you would still be left with
Odan Urr > Freedon Nadd ~< Full Body Orbalisk Darth Bane >>>> 2 Orbalisk Darth Bane > Firestorm!Darth Bane ~ Power of the entire Brotherhood >>>> Lord Hoth

Section 4: Other stuff

Ambria Scaling

I'll first be addressing Vaelias' claims on the matter then I'll connect this argument to Hoth:

Vaelias said:
Ok so this is where this whole argument falls apart right off the bat, you are saying there is a dark side ritual which called on more of the dark side than ever and then that was added to by an unspecified amount of Sith survivors spirits, and then Thon easily repelled all of that power, but why is it the power of the Ritual being added to there? when what remains of the ritual was only the deep stains it left behind ? If I take a chocolate bar and rub it along the side of my shirt, it doesn't mean my shirt is now infused with a full chocolate bar does it? only the stain that it left over which would logically be a fraction of the full chocolate bar. That is the power the spirits are building off, the stains of the dark side the ritual left on the planet, but how many spirits are there because I highly doubt a few spirits of a bunch of fodder escapees from the Hyperspace War would make up the gap between the stains the ritual left and the ritual itself.

??? Uhhhh what? Let's look at the quote I posted in my original post:

Aside from what was shown in the original post, we know that yes the wave of power released deep stains on the lands, but theoretically it's just the stain right? Well other sources speak differently:

So "dark side energy" infused into the lands was what killed all life on the planet, the same energy was contained by Thon. Furthermore, the same quote also noted that the planet also became a large concentration of Dark Side spirits... yeah it's still an extremely huge DS nexus.
-

So we are left with just: a source of power that is vastly sub the most powerful use of the dark side as of 3999BBY, and Thon. And here is why I don't think this is a particularly impressive feat for Thon anyway - Thon lands on the planet in full defense mode, gets swarmed instantly and just holds his defenses up until he has to pull out a 'final desperate strategy' holding up just long enough to get to the middle of the lake, by which time he can't sustain his defenses, he surrenders to the dark side which makes the dark side swarm and surround him, so its not as if he is pulling all that energy in, he is just holding up his shield and baiting himself long enough for all those energies to surround him so he can pull out a neat trick and bind them all together under the lake, a neat trick but it's made very clear that Thon is not as powerful as the Dark Side presence there he just snookered them, so what are we left with here? Thon scales below a power that scales below a power that at one point in time was the most powerful use of the dark side.

No? That's not what happened at all. The large release of DS energy that killed all life are the DS energy that was infused into the very ground, which then attracted a shit ton of DS spirits who then made the planet a massive soup of DS powers that "threatens an entire sector". Thon then "easily repelled" said spirits and contained all the energy into the lake. Pretty goddamn impressive if you ask me.
-

Vaelias said:
I don't think this is anything particularly impressive on Thon's part, Thon locked all the Dark Side beneath the lake, so there is no dark side above the lake at this point so it doesn't surprise me that the Jedi presence on Ambria after the dark side was trapped away caused a partial light side Nexus. this isnt something that can be attributed to Thon

??
Firstly, to make a planet a nexus you would have to imbue it with light side energy. If Thon's mere presence is enough to imbue the planet with LS energy that's still pretty goddamn impressive. And yeah I bet thousands of Jedi and Sith on one planet is gonna imbue it with energy, if you wanna compare Thon to that sure.
-

Vaelias said:
Ah Dark Side powers Thon doesn't scale above SS - Lord Hoth (Vaelias) vs Odan Urr (Darthor) 1668617588 . two things


1- These comparisons aren't an accurate way to decipher power levels in Star Wars because these feats are manifestations of the medium less than the actual power of the characters, stuff like Kun destroying Yavin is put below Maul's scuffle with Jinn and shit like Nihilus draining planet below Palpatine jumping around. It's just not a solid basis in which to determine ones power level


2 -There is no link between Thon and these feats from Sadow and Danar now that we picked apart the above, Hoth scales above this anyways though scaling above the power Jerec gained from the Valley

1. Kun below Maul?? Dogshit take. Anyways I'll be comparing this feat to Lord Hoth soon enough anyways
2. Actually there is. The same power release that killed all life is also the DS energy that soaks into the soil. That + the DS spirits is what Thon "easily repelled" at first and then utterly contain.
-
With that aside let's connect the Ambria argument to Lord Hoth. Specifically, Zannah used the power that was imbued in the very soil of Ambria, transformed into Dark Side Tendrils to attack Bane:

“Regaining her balance she saw that Bane was on his feet again, and she knew he had resisted the spell. But she still had one more surprise for her Master.
Again she opened herself up to the dark side. This time, however, she didn't attack Bane directly. Instead, she let it flow through her, drawing it from the soil and stone of Ambria itself. She called to power buried for centuries, summoning it up to the surface in wispy tendrils of dark smoke snaking up from the sand.
The thin tendrils crawled along the ground, reaching for one another, twining themselves together into writhing tentacles each several meters long.
Then, in response to her unspoken command, the tentacles rose up and lashed out at her foe.
Bane saw the strange black mist crawling across the dirt and knew this was no illusion. Somehow Zannah had given substance and corporeality to the dark side, transforming it into half a dozen shadowy, serpent-like minions rising up from the ground.
Suddenly the tendrils flew at him. He slashed out with his lightsaber to chop the closest one in half, but the blade simply passed through the black mist with no effect. “Bane threw himself to the side, but the tip of the tentacle still brushed against his left shoulder.
The material of his clothes melted away as if it had been splashed with acid. A chunk of flesh beneath simply dissolved, and Bane screamed in agony. Once, orbalisks had fused themselves to his body with a burning chemical compound so intense it had nearly driven him mad. Ten years ago they had been removed when Bane's flesh had been literally cooked by a concentrated blast of his own violet lightning. During her interrogation, Serra had pumped him full of a drug that had felt like it was eating him alive from the inside. But the excruciating pain he felt from the mere touch of the dark side tendril was unlike anything Bane had ever experienced before.
The damage was far from life threatening, but it nearly sent Bane into shock. He fell hard to the ground, his jaw slack and his eyes rolling back into his head. His mind was reeling from the brief contact. The pain radiated through every nerve in his body, but what he felt went far beyond any mere physical sensation. It was not the raw “heat of the dark side but rather the empty chill of the void itself spreading through him. It touched every synapse in his mind, it clawed at the core of his spirit. In that instant he tasted utter annihilation, and felt the true horror of absolute nothingness.”
Dynasty of Evil

So as we can see from the above quote, Darth Zannah "called upon the powers in the soil and stone", and "transformed it into Dark Side tendrils", a mere touch of which rendered Darth Bane helpless. Notice that he tried every attack he can possible usher and decided that the only way for him to win is to Kill Zannah first. So if a fraction of the power Thon contained made Bane helpless, imagine what can he do against the full extent of Ambria's power. Certainly not "easily repel it". And then imagine how Bane's vast vast inferior in Lord Hoth will do it. Oh and Thon is Odan Urr's inferior... Yeah you get the point

An appeal to intuition

This is gonna be quick. So as we all know, Odan Urr has far more knowledge than Lord Hoth, something Vaelias practically conceded to. But we also know that power comes from knowledge:

“He understood that power came from knowledge, and his vast fortune had allowed him to assemble the priceless collection of ancient Sith teachings he kept secured in his private library.”
Taken from Dynasty of Evil

We also know that Odan Urr lived for 1000 years +, and has both the knowledge and serious combat experience ranging all the way back to the Great Hyperspace War. So:
Vaelias has both the experience / mastery and the immense knowledge, both of which leads directly to power. Perhaps it's not a linear relationship but when we have 2 opponents and one of them not only scales above the others but is intuitively far superior, I know who my pick is.
One last thing, Vaelias has noted twice in his post that Odan Urr is a book worm. This is correct, but as noted in the Power of the Jedi sourcebook, Odan Urr might be a scholar but he is still immensely powerful. He just has "quiet powers":


So yeah intuitively you should also go with Urr here. He has far more knowledge, experience, and mastery than Hoth.

Conclusion:

The Validity of My Arguments:

I think when comparing the cases you should definitely take mine over Vaelias based on a few simple reasons:
1. Narrative. My arguments, and I've repeatedly shown this, is very very ingrained into the very narrative of the stories themself. I have repeatedly shown not only that my quotes support my argumentation, but that the plot in of itself supports it. For this simple reason I should win. I showed you not only dozens of instances in the text when the Ancients are above the Brotherhood but also how that it is supported in the plot. This frankly should outweigh any scaling chain because when Drew wrote the Bane novels he might not be thinking of how in Dark Forces Two the Brotherhood scales above Kyle Katarn who scales above the Ancients, but he CONSCIOUSLY put in Ancient superiority.
2. Layers. For virtually all of my arguments are multi-layered. I gave you 4 layers of responses against the Lord Hoth all the Jedi theory, I gave you 1 scaling chain and one conservative one if you don't buy it, etc. By this reason alone, my case is far more intricate and is based on far more solid ground than Vaelias. Think of Vaelias' case as standing on a thin thread, for example the all Jedi theory. If that line breaks his entire case falls, but mine doesn't.
3. Branches out more.
I ranged my argument to the following ways:
-Era Comparison
-Fight analysis
-Feats comparison
_Narrative portrayal
-intuition
-Scaling
So we get a far more well-rounded analysis on my side, and said analysis yields my result: Urr wins.

TL;DR:

For easy analysis of the debate by the jdges, I'll be analyzing this debate by clashes and explanation my rebuttals on each and how they win me the debate:
1. Era Comparison:
While Vaelias does provide good argumentation and evidence for the NSW era, they simply pale next to the TOTJ era. For the Jedi, TOTJ was noted as "prime of the Jedi", the "Golden Age of the Jedi", and the "Golden Age of the Sith". Meanwhile, the Jedi in NSW are explicitly the "dark age of the republic", and the Brotherhood of Darkness explicitly far far weaker than the Ancient Sith. It's clear that TOTJ is superior to the NSW in every metric possible

2. Lord Hoth:
While Vaelias tries to claim that Lord Hoth is this limitless god who is superior to the entire brotherhood by himself, I gave you several layers of responses here that should win the clash:
1. The All Jedi Hoth / All Sith Kaan theory is not supported by the evidence he tries to run
2. There are 2 very explicit caps on Hoth's combative abilities that caps him below the brotherhood
3. Even if this argument works it's likely not applicable in this debate
4. If this argument is true Odan Urr will also benefit from it
Notice that this argument is a large proponent of his later scaling chains as well

3. Scaling Chains:
Vaelias' chain:
Virtually every part of his link is broken, Hoth is not above the entire brotherhood, who are not necessarily above Kyle, who is NOT above Vader quantifiably, who is CERTAINLY NOT ABOVE ODAN URR BY THE WAY HES TRYING TO PROVE (Kun or Desolus)
My chain:
Not only does my chain hold up, but I offered an additional chain to back it up further. Details:
Progressive original chain:
Odan Urr > Freedon Nadd > Darth Tenebrous >>> Darth Bane >>>> Lord Hoth still stands
Conservative New Chain:
Odan Urr > Freedon Nadd ~< Full Body Orbalisk Darth Bane >>>> 2 Orbalisk Darth Bane > Firestorm!Darth Bane ~ Power of the entire Brotherhood >>>> Lord Hoth
Notice that the second chain provides more nuance on how Bane compares to Hoth, and can be applied in the original chain as well. Note also that the original chain is still superior.

4. Other stuff:
Ambria still stands as an incredibly impressive feat and scales above Bane and Hoth even after you consider Vaelias' rebuttals, and intuitively Urr is superior to Hoth in every way.

5. Stuff I'll likely cover in later posts:
Force mechanics, Vader vs Kun, anti-scaling of your case (i.e. how Vader or Kun scales massively above Bane), narrative anti-scaling, etc. etc.

Conclusion:

I win, Odan Stomps

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Sources:

Sources that I mentioned in my case. They are marked with (number). Read only if you disagree with substantiation as provided in the original case

Spoiler:

THE LORD OF LIGHT

DEFENDING THE DEFENDER

Darthor wrote:I want to start this post off by congratulating Vaelias for his post. It was extremely well-made and very entertaining, and arguably my favorite post of all time. Nonetheless I am not convinced by your argumentation at all. Because while theories and meta-debating are an excellent and refreshing way to view Star Wars, they are unfortunately not applicable for Star Wars debating. What I see when I look at your post are hyper-literal interpretations of quotes that aren’t supposed to be taken literally at all, and said interpretations oftentimes contradict with scaling, authorial intent, basic narrative of a story, and sometimes, common sense itself. There’s quite a few reasons why your theories shouldn’t be applied to IU scaling when it contradicts narrative:

First off, thank you Im glad you enjoyed the post, this one looks great and this is already a really fun debate, but I think you misunderstand a few things here, and that's ok, a lot of people do but I genuinely stand by my position and disagree entirely, and I want to convince you why because this is a common thing I see in the community is a failure to understand the functions of the force, and then when one does the digging to explain it, they will say what you have just said on the basis that it appears 'too complicated' and then it will be brushed off as 'clearly not the intent but huh cool ig' all the while remaining ignorant of some of these basic functions, which no, are not just interpretations strung together or taken hyper-literally, these are concepts that are ingrained into the Star Wars Universe at the deepest level. Lets break it down!

-Star Wars Archives: George Lucas wrote:

”A lot of the concepts of Star Wars are very hard to, really go into in a simple way because they’re far too complex in the end. You know, I put them out there, a very superficial thing, you’d have to really start pulling it apart, and to spend a lot of time to get to the bottom of what’s really going on, especially in terms of thematic issues that are involved in most of this.”
-The Phantom Menace Directors Commentary with Cast and Crew: George Lucas

”All the seeds have been planted in these movies, in little moments, little lines, in things that, hopefully, when one sees all six together, will resonate back and forth between all the movies, and reveal things.”
- The Empire Strikes Back Directors Commentary with Cast and Crew: George Lucas

Bringing midichlorians into it, as a device is something that existed from the beginning but I never really had the time to go into any explanation because every time the rather larger concepts come into play, how does the galaxy work, what is the force altogether, you have to be very sort of, cryptic and deal in almost fortune cookie descriptions of things, so it’s very difficult to get a concept across but I figured this whole movie I could begin to bring out the idea of midichlorians and their job in being sensitives to the force and why some people are more susceptible to the force and than others
-The Phantom Menace Directors Commentary with Cast and Crew: George Lucas

And as I showed you in my opener the concept I discussed is a very real concept in Shamanism the core system in which the Force In Star Wars is based.

"In shamanic practice, we seek to work in partnership with the living as well as with the spirits of the ancestors and other allies. By connecting with the energy of the living, we can draw on their strength and vitality to help us in our work."
- Contemporary Shamanic Teachings

"All living things possess power, and by tapping into this power we can create change in the world. By working with the living, we can harness the collective energy of the community to create healing and transformation."
- Traditional African Shamanic Wisdom

"Everything in the universe is connected, and energy flows through all things. This energy is the web that connects us all."
- Jamie Sams

"The web of life connects us all, and each strand of the web is important. We are all part of the same tapestry."
- Ted Andrews

And also as I showed you this concept is very real In Star Wars, Ill refrain from reposting my last post here (although I do suggest rereading the relevant parts in light of the above) but for the sake of clarity here are a few examples of this concept at play in Star Wars

"Your time is over! The Sith rule the galaxy! Now and forever!" And it was the whole of the Jedi Order that rocketed from its huddle, making of its own body a weapon to blast the Sith to the ground. "At an end your rule is, and not short enough it was, I must say." -Revenge of the Sith

If these concepts weren't a thing or weren't meant to be taken literally for whatever reason then what is happening here? what are the Sith's goals in Season 6? this is all stuff we covered in the opener and its all in line with these concepts as we can see... Do the threads exist in SW. Yes. do they work the same. yes do they form a web of power. yes, so what part exactly is hyperliteral?

I could feel the connections Dooku had forged among Jango and the Trade Federation, the Geonosians, the whole Separatist movement: connections of greed and fear, of deception and bald intimidation. I did not know what they were—I did not know how Dooku had forged them, or why— but I felt their power: the power of what I now know is a web of treason he had woven to catch the galaxy. -Shatterpoint

The Heart of the Jedi is where the threads cross

It was a grid work of uncountable fine threads, running here and there to various points, connecting, linking, crossing, intertwining in a complex woven fabric that seemed to bind all into a whole tapestry. And many threads shot away from it into the surrounding space, as if stretching out to touch other worlds. “It’s the lines of energy!” said Luke. “I can see them!” -Heart of the Jedi

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It is strong with the Force. The threads of energy which interweave to bind all life together have many crossings there. It is a collection point, its concentrated power form a sort of gateway into the pure essence of all being. -Heart of the Jedi

Yoda is the Heart of the Jedi, Yoda is where all the threads cross, which is why the Sith wanted to break his spirit. And why he can focus all the power

Master Yoda has travelled to Moraband. Once known as Korriban, this planet was the ancient graveyard of many past Sith Lords. The old Master was more vulnerable than ever before, and a chance to strike at him - and so arguably, at the heart of the Jedi order - was too good to be missed -Relaunched Fact File 101

You can clearly see here that these concepts are very real in Star Wars, even the hidden meaning behind the Season 6 Ritual, a normal kid would watch that and not have a clue, but there is depth to it that is there, but you have to look for it, and it makes perfect sense of course mirroring the concepts that George based the Force on. George wants us to pick this apart not just dismiss it as hyper literal theories etc lol, Its also very funny that you said none of this is the intent or should be taken literally or even be considered, and a reason you gave for that is "because it contradicts scaling" as if any of our self conceived scaling is intended or tracked or meant to be taken literally, What is tracked however are these concepts, more so than any other thing in Star Wars, in fact. George has an old binder with all these concepts in it and is always involved when it comes to the Force

George is highly involved in all aspects of this series but when we deal directly with the force, uh Christian Taylor and I feel ya know that that word has to come directly from George, a lot of the notes from Mortis come from a really old binder that George has which has his original writings on what the force is and what makes it up -Secrets of Mortis Featurette: Dave Filoni

Lucas said to make him a Dark Lord of the Sith; so then I had to ask what a Dark Lord of the Sith is. Tom Veitch and I gave him a two-page questionnaire about what Dark Lords of the Sith can or can't do and Lucas defined all the parameters for us. Gilman: I understand that Lucas, understandably, keeps a pretty tight rein on his properties. How does this impact on what you do? Anderson: He seems to be a fairly flexible with the Tales of the Jedi series, because it's 4,000 to 5,000 years before the movies. Tom Veitch and I have some incredible latitude on what we can do. As long as we remained true to the spirit of the Force and Jedi Knights and other established themes of the Star Wars universe, we could do mostly what we wanted. -Tales of the Jedi Interview, Kevin J Anders

So lets make it easy and narrow down the parameters for what we discussed in the opener -There exists threads in the force created by connections -These connections are formed through emotions -They form a web of power -They can cross over -That forms a concentration of energy in a place or person - We see this in Shamanism - We see this in Buddhism - We see this with Dooku - We see this with Yoda So we have this concept, now that we know that this is a concept within the force, and that everyone exists within the force, logically what do we do ? Look at the characters and see how they interact, how they draw power? how are they depicted?, do they fit the framework ? I think Hoth definitely does for the reasons outlined in my opener. which no doubt Ill touch on down this post

So yeah what part of this exactly do you find to be "hyper-literal interpretations of quotes that aren’t supposed to be taken literally at all"

Darthor wrote:a) Because authors, in the vast vast majority of cases, don’t think in the same way that Star Wars debaters do. When Drew wrote the Path of Destruction he likely wasn’t thinking about how his words when describing Lord Hoth are similar to the way Yoda was written.

Yeah sure authors are definitely not thinking the way we do, they sure as hell aint thinking about power levels half as much as we do I bet Tom Veitch didn’t have Kuar Danar in mind intending to put Thon above the Ritual power and tie in rare French Magazine RPG characters, lol the whole “he probably wasn’t thinking this” argument can be applied to almost every chain we have, they arent even thinking about power levels at all in almost every instance, but hey published material is published material and do with whats official what you will, as long as it fits within the LFL framework etc etc, a chain for example you've built it using published material and it works, so that can be considered an accurate argument, but was that chain intended to be made, almost certainly no like all the time, you could say this about everything, everything except the integrated force concepts that I am using here, lol. Drew being an author is briefed on all these concepts has convos with LFL officials gets documents off them, is forced to do research on the universe, and they are all beholden to Lucas, so the force stuff is literally the main thing that we can except to be accurate or have hidden meaning,  why are we pretending like these authors are dumb and not clued in on some of the main components of the Force, Drew demonstrates knowledge of this sorta stuff a lot when he talks about the state of Vitiates mind, power existing in the heart Jedi presence being force power, but lets say Drew never intended this, the Character of Hoth would still be this character who is the center of the Jedi spirit, draws strength from all of them, Drew wrote that in the novel and he might write about that but not know how it works, but it doesn't mean we cant apply the canon functions of what he has written to the character by slotting the character into the framework that exists in all Star Wars, why wouldn't we do that ? there's also the fact that the concepts are a G-Canon concept so they take the highest priority.

Darthor wrote:b) Because it ignores context. Several part of you post is true when taken at face value but fails utterly when you read into the larger context and narrative of the story, or sometimes, even the context of the passage
Show me examples of this, because I don't believe any larger concepts preclude any of these points

c) Because when you try to connect multiple different sources together, you often ignore that the sources are mutually contradictory. I.e. when you try to use the Bane novel coupled with the DF novel to scale Hoth and the BoD astronomically above Kyle Katarn and TOTJ, you then ignore the fact that the brotherhood inferiority is LITERALLY WRITTEN INTO THE NARRATIVE OF THE BANE NOVEL ITSELF as I will expand on later.

The Brotherhood of Darkness being inferior in power in the force is not written into the narrative, the issue is Bane's disagreement with Kaan, the terrible system in where there is no motivation to progress, terrible circumstances for power to be focused with so many Sith and Kaan's whole equality thing, his order is a dark reflection of the Jedi Order, and they are more like Dark Jedi anyways being called 'self proclaimed Sith" all the old glory is gone, the good ol days have passed and Bane is grumpy with Kaan, the issue is not about force power, (past the dilution stuff and the loss of some powers n neat ancient tricks etc but that isn't relevant for their of these guys), in fact that's such a versus debater thing to think, the philosophy being the actual main issue here, Kaan is treating the Sith Order like the Jedi Order trying to make it function the same, but its a means to no end. 

And this doesn't retcon or contradict anything I have written about these guys being powerhouses, nothing in Path of Destruction explicitly contradicts what's written in Dark Forces 2 in terms of power, no way is any author going out of their way to retcon someone's 'power level' they don't give a fuck about that shit, and these contradictions are taken on a case by case Drew keeps very close to the events in both Jedi vs Sith and DF2, the wording even mirrors eachothers at some points, so I don't think there is anything wrong with combining both sources here, the power of the Brotherhood was clearly not retconned as they didn't nerf the power in the Valley of the Jedi did they? and that's their power, that's why its such a strong nexus cos its made up of all these OP guys who are well above Kyle and Jerec at the time, while not direct evidence or anything I think Vader and DE Palpatine using Kaan's amulet to boost their power and make up for physical handicaps is a nice nod to the Dark One's being super powerful ancient warriors, who unfortunately were locked away forever, can go more into this quote later if need be

The supposed mystic proclaimed that only the one who obtained the enchanted gauntlet would rule the Empire. What neither the public, nor SPIN, could know was that Vader’s right glove was fashioned around an indestructible Sith amulet of unimaginable power once belonging to Lord Skere Kaan during the New Sith Wars.
-THE STAR WARS SPY GAME: SPIN DECLASSIFIED

But the point here is that there is nothing wrong with connecting the sources, none of what I talk about is retconned, and the two novels are literally made to fit together, furthermore, it doesn't actually matter what Drew is thinking, what matters is whats in published material, again I don' think Veitch was thinking of Kuar Danar when he wrote Thon and Ambria, so your logic falls flat here

Darthor wrote:So unless Vaelias can prove all the above is false, and his evidence and theories are actually woven into the very narrative of the text, he would then have to engage with the evidence in support of Odan Urr.

I think I just have but lets get into this

Darthor wrote:4. The entire section on how the power of the living force is reliant on the “burning powers of the Jedi”
Why are they respectively irrelevant:

It's not irrelevant when that power is the power the Jedi use, and that's the power in the thought bomb, and thats the power Lord Hoth is the center of

Darthor wrote:1. This has virtually no connection whatsoever with power. Whether they are “barons” “kings” “hereditary lords” or scholars and warriors is completely irrelevant. It is but a title and has no connection to power

Sure if ya take it at face value, but we have discussed these concepts right, and you have these little 'islands' of light side power, an there's a Jedi Lord for each one raised as the King from a line of force users, would you disagree that these Jedi Lords are the heart of their island of power that they created ? would you disagree that when these mini islands come together they form one giant island of power? this is stuff we can logically deduce from simply knowing the concepts that exist in the universe an then seeing if and where people fit into the concepts, I cant think of a better example of a web of light side power than these little islands of hope and peace, tell me Darthor, if you look past the blanket statement, how do you think that is working if not through Force Threads, are they Yuuzhan Vong devoid of the force or something???

Darthor wrote:2. Similarly to 1, virtually all Jedi has 1v1 training as far back as their padawan years. They only go to “classes” during their youngling ages. The training of the Jedi Lords are irrelevant to power unless proven explicitly (something Vaelias failed to do)

Why would they not be trained one on one and groomed ? they are hereditary barons and kings, and ya know how you posted this quote

Darthor wrote:

Why would it be any different for the 1000 years of Jedi barons and kings and their breeding a hereditary Jedi lineage ?

The Jedi domains were islands of peace and
justice, where honorable rulers fought to keep the Sith at bay, attracted other
brave Jedi to their banners, and sired sons and daughters who followed their
parents in the way of the Force.
- Essential Guide to Warfare

Darthor wrote:3. The number of Jedi in the army of light is irrelevant to the 1v1 combative capabilities of Hoth unless Vaelias can prove he is the accumulation of their power, something Vaelias not only failed to do but is explicitly not supported in the story (something I will expand on) 4. The importance of the “burning fires of the Jedi” on the living force is also completely irrelevant to the greater scheme of this debate. 

Burning fires of the Jedi on the living force? I think you are misunderstanding, I presented the evidence in my opener you'd need to debunk that before you declare I failed to prove it, but the point there is, the Jedi are fed by the Jedi presence which is very much relevant to the debate seeing as I am talking about power mechanics here

There was a malaise in the air, like some infectious disease of mind and spirit. The Force was strong on Ruusan inevitable given the vast numbers of Sith and Jedi there. Yet he sensed it was in turmoil, a maelstrom of confusion and conflict. -Path of Destruction

Obi-Wan reached out to the Force to find him, but met only the thin stirring of a barren world. It was strange to live in a galaxy now that had no Jedi in it. He hadn't realized that he had once felt a humming presence, alive with the Force-ability of his fellow Jedi. It had fed him, and he hadn't even known it. -The Last One Standing

This is all relevant to the debate because my argument is that Hoth's power is the Jedi Fire that's in the Valley of the Jedi, and he is keeper of the power, now I don't think Hoth can give the combative output of the entire Army of Light by himself, that is not what I claimed at all, but he holds all that power, again how exactly is this 'completely irrelevant' to the debate?

Darthor wrote:Endless Vigil is a source on the canon RPG “force and destiny”. It bears no explicit implications on the rest of the legends universe.

FFG operates under the same rules as something like Relaunched Fact File, they have both EU and new canon content, whats legends is legends whats canon is canon, but whatever that was just a cool tidbit on the philosophy I thought was nice.

 Lord Hoth in the Bane novel explicitly cites that raging is against the “most basic teachings of our order” which CLEARLY cites that the Jedi Order during the Ruusan campaigns are still against the use of emotions in combat. 

Yeah I know the Jedi are all going against the code the last war has forced them to change, I didn't say the dark side ways have seeped into the Code lol, rather its seeping into them individually, just a side effect of all these conflicts and a side effect which the Jedi actually can make use of, we see the same thing in the PT, the dark side growing inside them, again this was all outlined clearly in the opener, seems you misunderstood

Darthor wrote:This remains irrelevant because:
1. TOTJ isn’t binded by this in any way at all
2. The Jedi in the PT era can still be superior
Once again to drive the point home that the Jedi of the NSW are far weaker than PT, we know firstly that there are alternative quotes for Jedi’s growth in the past thousand years
And of course we have several quotes for PT Jedi supremacy:

Yeah I never claimed the PT wasn't better, but I think its the growing dark side in the Jedi which ultimately makes up the biggest combat difference, and these powerhouses of the New Sith Wars seem have the most dark side corruption of any Order of Jedi in history, so while i'm not claiming they are with the PT, I think its a nod to just how strong these guys will be, funny also how you use that quote about a millennia of combat evolution but seem to be against the Idea that it happened during the NSW, despite the conditions for growth being far higher, do tell me, why would it be any different for NSW?

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Darthor wrote:Speaking of which, you know who else has Jedi supremacy quotes as the “prime of the Jedi” and noted as the Jedi Golden Age? Yes. The TOTJ era. Propagated by Odan-Urr. Oh and they post-dates the quotes mentioned and explicitly mentions the TCW Jedi. So now when we apply quotes we have TOTJ/KOTOR Jedi > PT Jedi > NSW Jedi. Even if you don’t buy TOTJ/KOTOR Jedi Supremacy this NSW Jedi wank should be pretty clearly destroyed

Postdates what quotes mentioned ? the G-Canon ones? well, that doesn't matter since they are G-Canon and would in fact simply retcon the TCW Jedi mention in the TOTJ/KOTOR quote. And I don't think the Jedi in NSW would be considered prime anyway, I wouldn't expect a quote like that for them, the Jedi have lost a lot of their control of the galaxy, Sith occupy half of it youve got crime and all sorta at an all time high, Jedi being corrupted by the Dark Side, it is literally the Dark Ages, I would not expect a prime golden age quote or anything of that sort for these Darkened mislead Jedi of the NSW, its a damaged order that's fallen apart, are most certainly not the monks following the will of the force they are meant to be, like in the Prequels and TOTJ, and so I think to take those quotes as a blanket statement about Force power isn't the right way to go about reading those quotes, there's too many factors in "Prime of the Jedi" to even consider using those quotes for specifically force power reasons when unity, influence, political power, harmony with the force and factors that contributed to the decline of the Jedi Order come into play, such as complacency, corruption, and the influence of the dark side. which had a negative impact on the effectiveness of the order, despite their continued strength in the Force. not to mention issues pertaining specifically to the NSW Jedi such as the recruitment of barely force sensitives and children into their armed forces, of course these guys arent the prime of the Jedi, but that doesn't preclude the NSW Jedi having more force power or better combatants, there is just too much there for those quotes to 'destroy the NSW wank' as for that one quote about them being at the summit of their power, I don't see why that would bind any future eras, it talks about the Jedi's progression an their story in general an says now its at the summit of its power, an that's why they have so much self confidence, they are better than ever I don't deny that

Darthor wrote:Firstly, the quote you referenced explains explicitly that it’s referring to character powers from each encounter, and not overall growth of the order. Secondly, the knowledge of the old masters are explicitly lost across:
-The cron supernova destroying the culmination of the TOTJ master’s knowledge
-The Jedi Purge destroying even more of the Jedi’s knowledge
-Among other destructions and wars such as the SWTOR events
So no… There’s no reason this quote means the Jedi order gets consistently stronger when all their knowledge are getting consistently destroyed.

Yeah so if each guy has more and more encounters and they learn more and more and pass on more and more, then wouldn't people be getting better and better am I confused, you seem to agree? if that isn't how millennia of combat progression comes about then answer me... what is, lol?
Why does loss of knowledge preclude growing stronger in the force and advancing combat?, if anything the TOTJ knowledge was all about peaceful approaches and shit anyways, like severing force so you don't have to fight etc
Why are the SWTOR events included lol, head-canon SWTOR history purge, hm?

Darthor wrote:What’s more, the Jedi Masters of old are all “great heroes” who then took up scholarly studies, making them the best of both warriors and scholars:

Too bad Odan Urr isn't one of these guys

"I am more of a scholar than a warrior, Memit Nadill. This assignment is quite a burden for me."
"Our warriors have been unsuccessful so far—perhaps a scholar will hold the key we need."
-Tales of the Jedi: 0

Darthor wrote:Furthermore, knowledge is the cornerstone for both the Republic and the Sith, as it instigates power:
And a large reason why the Jedi never had a “dark age” when this knowledge was lost is because of the great Library of Ossus, another TOTJ institution:
And it is thus that the Library of Ossus created the “golden age of the Jedi” during the TOTJ era. But you know when was it stated that the Jedi and the republic suffered a dark age? The NSW era:
The NSW being the “dark age of the Jedi and the Republic” is also a recurring theme as noted in the Jedi vs Sith sourcebook, the new essential atlas, and multiple other sources, as the last century of the NSW, including the Odion era and the Daiman, as well as… you guessed it… The Hoth era.

Dark Age doesn't really have anything to do with loss of power, the issue is that the republic is shattered, its the Republic Dark Age because the Sith have all their own mini empires which take up most of the galaxy in this era, its not a Dark Age like we see in Legacy or the OT where it is the Dark Age because all the Jedi are wiped out and the fire has gone completely, the Jedi are very much still active even if they conceded a lot of space and political power to the Sith, the fire is still there, as ive explained above it exists in small islands of hope and justice lead by the Lord or Barron of that realm which then all unites into one giant mass of Jedi fire which is the Army of Light, furthermore this era suffered from the Candorian Plague which is also a reason why it is referred to as the Republic's Dark Age not because the Light has been snuffed out completely like in other examples of Dark Ages like Legacy PT/OT etc. NSW is not the Dark Age for the same reasons and thus you cannot attribute it to such.

"The final hundred years of the Draggulch period are sometimes called the Republic's "dark age." The Republic could no longer afford to maintain its communications network, dropping all settlements outside the Core off the grid and forcing them to rely on hyperspace courier ships. At the same time, an outbreak of the Candorian plague killed off as much as two-thirds of the citizens of some major population centers."
-New Essential Chronology

-

There is little need, for example, to describe our long years of war with the newly risen Sith Lords on the Outer Rim. The Grumani sector is one such nest of evil, but today’s map of the galaxy shows many disparate areas under Sith control, like cancerous lesions. Alongside the Republic Navy, the Jedi Order sought to stem the tide by making stands on world after world, Republic-affiliated or not.

But such efforts fell short, partially due to another factor: plague. If the Sith threat is the fire, the Candorian Plague proved a deadly and effective accelerant. Even the noblest defenders cannot stand long when their own bodies fail them. Systems under quarantine could not be defended — and Sith Lords more interested in conquest than the well-beings of their own warriors took advantage. World after world fell to the Sith conquerors.
-Knight Errant Gazatter

So it being the Dark Age doesn't actually do anything for you here, It means nothing for Hoth

Darthor wrote:Actually the authorial intent in the Rule of two is that Qordis and Kaan are conjured up by his subconscious. Which makes sense because that quote is so obviously not accurate and Qordis was killed BEFORE the thought bomb:

You know its gotten bad when you start calling quotes 'obviously not accurate' of course they are conjured up by his imagination, but you say that as if it somehow precludes what I said, all Sith spirits are part of your mind, they are all illusions, and the same source explains this, (but yeah Qordis' time of death was retconned so just ignore that part or whatever, not relevant anyways)

Master Yoda encountered the disembodied spirit of Darth Bane in his huge mausoleum. Though dangerous, only fear could grant it power. Yoda was unafraid, calmly dismissing the illusion -Relaunched Fact File #90

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Yoda Faced Bane's spirit but managed to see through the Illusion of its existence to travel deeper within the temple -Relaunched Fact File #90

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Darth Bane: Then what stands before you! Yoda: An illusion, real you are not Darth Bane: You do not fear me Yoda: No, exist, you do not anymore -Sacrifice Script

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The spirits of minor Sith Lords haunted Moraband, seeking to feed on the fear of hapless visitors to increase their own power -Relaunched Fact File #90

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Relaunched Fact File #102 wrote:

Not to mention Kaan is literally called a spirit anyway

"You brought that upon me!" He expected his teacher Qordis to appear again, laughing at him. But instead of the vengeful dark avatar, he saw the shadowy spirit of Sith Lord Kaan, the fallen leader of the Brotherhood of Darkness who had annihilated the Sith and the Jedi on Ruusan. -Bane of the Sith

Kaan haunted Bane in the form of a silent spirit hovering in the periphery of his sight. On Dxun, Kaan's silent image led Darth Bane through the jungles to the tomb of Freedon Nadd. -The Complete Encyclopedia

Darthor wrote:So to summarize, while for the NSW Jedi’s favor we have a bunch of hyper-literal theories that are debunked, the TOTJ were the Jedi in their prime. The epic heroes of the past mixed with the great scholars creating an “golden age of the Jedi”, while the NSW happened in the age of the Dark Age of the Republic and the Jedi Order. It’s made abundantly clear that the arguments in favor of TOTJ masters superiority is far far far more explicit compared to vice versa

 Ok so to summarize further, after all we have covered above, No these are not 'hyper-literal theories' they are concepts very clearly established in Star Wars, simply dismissing these details as hyper-literal and not meant to be taken seriously is a flawed argument because it fails to engage with the substance of the concepts and the argument, or the evidence that supports it.


Rather than simply dismissing the concept as "hyper-literal and not meant to be taken seriously" you could engage with the argument, and consider the evidence that supports or challenges the claim?, you did not do this, you essentially said "nah not true" which is both not an actual counter and quite a boring way to look at the debate, especially considering the foundation of Star Wars and a lot of its underlying meaning and magic comes from these integrated concepts, which might not be immediately apparent until you look a bit deeper, refusal to do this or acknowledge these underlying details that aren't just spoon fed to you with a blanket statement ultimately will limit your understanding of how power functions in Star Wars. For example a lot of concepts like Buddhist Negative Karma, are very real in Star Wars but you'll never find that stated in a quote, you have to pick it apart, something you have demonstrated your lack of understanding in, through not engaging with the argument and dismissing the evidence on no factual basis 


Tales of the Jedi being the Jedi's golden age has no bearing on individual force power levels, neither does NSW being the Dark Age, Odan Urr is not an example of a Hero/Scholar hybrid, he is just a scholar per his own admission. the reason you could say it’s in a sense more explicit that the TOTJ Jedi are better is simply because TOTJ is far older has far more content to go off of so many more colours to use in the painting, NSW didn’t get half the development by the time the timeline was cut off, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t more powerful that doesn’t make them automatically bad, there is less material, it is still there, but you have to look harder. and finally you failed to explain why the Fact File Quote is "obviously not accurate". So, nope I disagree with your summary

Darthor wrote:Couple of things here: 1. Kaan didn’t escape the thought bomb according to the most relevant sources (Bane Novel) 2. Kaan isn’t the component of the Brotherhood as I will explain later 3. The Sith are still very present in the thought bomb 

1. Scan that says Kaan didnt escape the thought bomb, and by that I don't mean a quote about how they are in his mind, because that does not preclude him escaping. 2. Ok very interested to hear what you have to say there 3. I did not claim they were not present, there are far fewer of them than Jedi, and their power largely flowed from Kaan, and that power was not in the thought bomb, not only were their weak souls empowered by Kaan but their souls in general were largely drained by Kaan during the creation of the Thought Bomb, Kaan is the mind for the Brotherhood, much like Kaan pulls the collective Brotherhood out of Bane's Ritual he drains their souls into himself, a single vessel, to channel the Thought Bomb and activate it, so the Souls of the Sith are the tiniest fraction of themselves they can be.

Then he noticed Lord Kaan standing off to the side, over by the fliers. "What happened?" Bane demanded angrily. "Why did you stop?" "Your plan worked," Kaan replied curtly. "The forest is destroyed, the Jedi have fled to open ground. They are exposed, vulnerable. Now we go to finish them off." Kaan had broken the connection, and somehow he had managed to drag the others out along with him, as if he had some hold over their minds. -Path of Destruction

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Revan's Holocron: a way to unite the minds and spirits of the Sith through a single vessel so their strength could be unleashed upon the physical world. In many ways the process was similar to the one used to fashion a thought bomb from the Force, though this was less powerful than the ritual he had sent as a peace offering to Kaan-and far less dangerous -Path of Destruction

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Drawing closer he could make out a single figure standing in the center of the circle: Lord Kaan. He hadn't seen him at first; the middle of the ring was darker than the rest of the cave. There seemed to be a black cloud hovering above him, tendrils of inky darkness extending down to wrap and twist around him in a sinister embrace. -Path of Destruction

so nah ;D

Darthor wrote:1. Novice =/= less powerful. Novice refers to explicitly “a person new to or inexperienced in a field or situation”. (google translate). Inexperienced refers to “having little knowledge or experience of a particular thing.” So if we take this interpretation in as meaning power then KFV is a novice compared to Odan Urr too.

So your counter to this argument is that Kyle is actually more powerful but just less masterful, Isn't your basis for Odan being stronger specifically about knowledge, Kyle is a novice force user these guys are not, does the whole knowledge = power thing go out the window here? just like the millennia of combat progression? But anyways lets take a look at the quote again...

Kyle was a novice compared to those around him and might have been killed if it hadn't been for LaTor and the other Jedi's strength. For LaTor was strong, very strong, and Kyle was impressed by the power resident in the dark side. The power and the relative ease of access... a temptation for anyone with the necessary talent. Finally, their robes soaked with sweat and their hearts beating like trip hammers, the Brotherhood was done. The thought bomb was complete. -Dark Forces: Jedi Knight

Are you seriously going to claim that LaTor and the other Lords are not way above Kyle, if you ask me the quote makes it pretty obvious the Dark One's are all far stronger than Kyle here, Kyle is a novice force user compared to the BoD, Id say novice here is all encompassing for the entirety of Kyle's skill set which includes his Force power, given the very next line says Kyle is not as strong as them, that they are very strong in comparison, and Kyle is like 'wow they are so powerful' they are just all round superior to Kyle and I don't think that's even debatable.


 

Darthor wrote:2. Nothing in the quote you posted instigates that he has to go to the Dark Side to surpass LaTor

Yeah its not like a direct "Kyle has to go to the dark side to surpass him" It's more just the implication that Kyle cannot gain such power from the light side at least not atm, it is clearly a level of power currently unavailable to him immediately through the light side, I am going mainly off his reaction here.


 3. This quote in of itself fundamentally contradicts your own argument. If the DS powers that have a “large resident” is enough to kill Kyle Katarn if not for the Jedi presence, that means that the DS forces are still very very relevant in the valley. So either you have to accept that:


Whut? Nothing says "large resident" idk where you get that, its the power resident in the dark side, not the power resident in the Thought Bomb, like how the dark side is stronger than the light and flows easier, you are misinterpreting the quote, Kyle isn't being shielded by the Jedi from the Sith, he is with the Sith in creating the Thought Bomb but the power of the Sith around him shields him from the affects so he doesn't die like three of the other weaker guys, It makes note of how he would have died along with them, clearly Kyle is with these weaker guys and not up there with LaTor who is in Kaan's top five guys there, there are a thousand Sith there, and only three died in the vicinity, and they died actively taking part in the ritual, Kyle would have just died from the vicinity, Kyle is below all the guys there, LaTor is Kaans's top 5 Kyle is in the bottom 1000 of these guys. granted they are the strongest of the Brotherhood

Time hung suspended, the air crackled with barely suppressed energy, and three of the Jedi died, their minds overcome by the violence of the process. Others went insane, rose with weapons drawn, and were executed by the master- at-arms. Kyle was a novice compared to those around him and might have been killed if it hadn't been for LaTor and the other Jedi's strength. -Dark Forces: Jedi Knight

So no the statement does not fundamentally contradict my argument in the slightest lol
And No I do not have to choose either one of these options, the options which fail to correctly acknowledge the claim I was making anyway 

Darthor wrote:The Sith Brotherhood are noted as “weak”, “simpering lords”, “an abomination”, “disgusting”, “sickly assemblage of mewling sycophants”, who are “not deserving of the Ancient’s power and wisdom” and “the true potency of the Dark Side” (1)

Murhhh the good old days are gone, all these quotes are just Bane fanboying over the ancients, he thinks everyone in the Brotherhood are sorry excuses for Sith because they operate in a way which is not ideal for the Dark Side to function, too many lords all this equality, he thinks they are all Idiots blindly following Kaan and thus not worthy of the ancients legacy or teachings, they threw them out, rejected them and have a completely opposing philosophy after all.

"Of course," Bane lied. "He is acting for the good of us all." As he rose to his feet he thought, Kaan's acting like one of the Jedi. Worrying about the greater good. Seeking to bring harmony and cooperation to our order. The dark side withers and dies under those conditions! -Path of Destruction

Lets just take a look at these rq

Darthor wrote:They are known as “simpering Sith Lords”: “Revan had been a true Sith Lord, unlike the simpering Masters who bowed to Kaan and his Brotherhood.” Source: Darth Bane PoD 

Bane's opinion based on teachings he received from Revan's Holocron, bunch of lost rituals and philosophy that Bane is has never seen before an he is like waaaa, has no baring on force power, 

Darthor wrote:Not worthy of the Ancients power and knowledge: “The Brotherhood of Darkness stood for everything that was wrong with the modern Sith. They had fallen from the true path. Their failure was the reason the spirits of the Dark Lords had vanished. None of Korriban—not Master, not apprentice—had been worthy of their wisdom; none worthy of their power. They had simply faded away, scattered like a handful of dust cast across the desert sand. Bane could see the truth so clearly now. Yet Qordis and the others were forever blind.” Source: Darth Bane PoD 

Again Bane's opinion, the new sith fell from the true path blah blah, which yeah isn't really incorrect here, but idk why the ancients WOULD favour the New Sith having vastly changed their philosophy/approach to things, so no no one is worthy of their power, just a side note here, X not being worthy of Ys power does not necessitate Y's power being greater anyway, X could be more powerful, but not be worthy of Y's power because he follows a different philosophy than Y does, and not worthy of that Legacy, take for example Yoda, he is more powerful than all the Ancient Sith (you've seen all the quotes not gonna post em here) but would still not be considered worthy of the Sith Legacy, he's a fucking Jedi with none of the same beliefs etc. same goes for Kaan, he was trying to turn the Sith into the Jedi Order, trying to hold it all together like Yoda, a flawed philosophy for the dark side, because it is selfish, the spirits do not agree with it, Bane does not agree with it. It was a flawed solution to the Sith paradox

"The spirits of powerful Sith Masters are said to linger in their tombs," Bane insisted, stubbornly refusing to be cowed. "They appear only to those who are worthy. They would not have revealed themselves to the Jedi." -Path of Destruction

-

Path of Destruction wrote:Kaan had tried to solve the problem by making everyone equal in the Brotherhood. But his solution was flawed. It showed no understanding of the real problem. No understanding of the true nature of the dark side. The Sith must be ruled by a single leader: the very embodiment of the strength and power of the dark side.

-

Path of Destruction wrote:"Of course," Bane lied. "He is acting for the good of us all." As he rose to his feet he thought, Kaan's acting like one of the Jedi. Worrying about the greater good. Seeking to bring harmony and cooperation to our order. The dark side withers and dies under those conditions! -Path of Destruction

Darthor wrote:The Ancients who has the “dark side’s true potential” were beyond the reach of every master of the academy: “The mysteries of the dark side’s true potential were beyond his reach — and likely beyond the reach of every Master at the Academy.” Source: Darth Bane PoD 

Yeah cos the knowledge had been lost, and there's nothing on the mysteries kept in the academy

Darthor wrote:The Sith masters didn’t know everything “You once told me the Masters didn’t know everything,” Bane continued. “You meant the Jedi Masters at the time, but I’m starting to believe it applies to the Sith as well Source：Darth Bane PoD

 Yeah Bane is opposed to the current order, thinks they are all dumb, blind etc

Bane could see the truth so clearly now. Yet Qordis and the others were forever blind. They followed Kaan as if he had bound them up with some secret spell. - Path of Destruction

Darthor wrote:Explicitly stated as weak: “The Brotherhood had changed all that. There were now a hundred of more Dark Lords following Kaan, but most were weak and inferior.” Source: Darth Bane PoD 

Bane's opinion, but yeah most of them were weak and inferior by Bane's standards a lot of them probably were

Darthor wrote:You know what at this point let me just spam the quotes: ”I‘m the one who read the ancient texts, not you! You’re stuck learning from Masters who’ve forgotten their past

 Yeh they rejected the ancient Sith, they did it largely on purpose … 

Darthor wrote:Kaan had cast aside the true power of the individual and replaced it with the false glory of self-sacrifice in the name of a worthy cause. 

Yep Kaan is an idiot …

Darthor wrote:The academy was an abomination, a testament to how far the Sith had fallen from the true ideals of the dark side. 

Speaks for itself they fell from the true ideals, no bearing on my claim … 

Darthor wrote:Bane didn’t respond, but his lip instinctively curled up in disgust as he remembered his instruction at the Academy. Qordis and the others had passed the apprentices around class to class as if they were children in school instead of heirs to the legacy of the Sith.

Yep BoD dumb lol, does not conflict with what I am claiming …

Darthor wrote:Kaan had prevented the entire Sith order, transforming it into a sickly assemblage of mewling sycophants. …

There are too many Sith Lords in the Brotherhood,” he went on. “Too many who are weak in the dark side. Yep terrible conditions for power to flow properly, the power is diluted with many Sith

We have too many Dark Lords, even the strongest wine cannot be felt in an ocean of weak water, for the dark side to be strong again it should be contained in One Vessel, One Lord. -Jedi vs Sith

-

Darthor wrote:… Your wisdom has destroyed our order,” Bane explained casually, watching as Qordis struggled helplessly above him. “You have polluted the minds of your followers; you and Kaan have led them down the path of ruin.” Source: Darth Bane PoD Yeah Kaan fucked everyone, no bearing on Force power

Yeah Kaan fucked everyone, no bearing on Force power

Darthor wrote:Darth Theory: The Sith Lords of the time are explicitly “not deserving of the Darth title” due to “the lack of power” and “cowardice”. The Darth title explicitly states it is a title of power. (2)

Yeah Bane thinks they don't deserve to be Darth's, the guys who blindly follow Kaan and are all about equality, it wouldn't be fitting for the name to be used, it wouldn't hold power now with so many lords having it, would mean nothing, no one deserves it, power in this context is not at all Force power, its just like status power that the title holds, Kaan obviously rejects a title that is contrary to his set of ideals.

Darthor wrote:Equality Theory: Lord Kaan created the Brotherhood as equals which leads to the impossibility for any of them being strong (3)

But they aren't all equals, Yoda for example is an equal to Sors Bandem in the same respect, it is how they are treated, how their order functions, sure this isn't the best thing for the Sith cos there is no rivalry and strife which the Sith require to grow, but that doesn't mean they still aren't powerful to begin with

Darthor wrote:The Ancient Powers: Unlike the weak Brotherhood, the Ancients are noted repeatedly as “powerful”, the “great lords of the past”, and in the very sentence where he calls Freedon Nadd a “great Sith Master” he also calls Qordis a “so called Sith Lord”. Furthermore, Darth Revan’s holocron was stated to have more knowledge than the entire Brotherhood archive, made of Ancient knowledge, which Bane and Githany both stated to be above the teachings of the actual Sith in the Brotherhood. Furthermore Freedon Nadd’s holocron will take Bane “months, maybe years” to study when Bane already is far far superior to Lord Kaan massively. (4)

Think the above should cover this part mostly, Bane loves the good ol days, I don't doubt they are Great Sith in that their philosophy and structure to their order was better, they knew a bunch of whacky shit that got lost etc, It does not say Revan's Holocron had more knowledge than the entire Academy, it says the teachings 'surpassed' what was in the archive, not there was more knowledge in the Holocron those are two very different things idk where you got the latter. those teachings were more valuable than anything he learned, not that it has a greater quantity

Darthor wrote:To top this section off, I want to further note that Ancient Sith superiority over the brotherhood is VERY INGRAINED IN THE NARRATIVE OF THE BANE NOVEL as the plot of the entire first part of the book is literally Bane figuring out that the brotherhood are all wrong and went to the gather the knowledge of the superior Ancient Sith instead.

Well done, you explained what the narrative was actually about in your comment "Bane figuring out that the brotherhood are all wrong" and that's the key there, the Brotherhood was wrong, all idiots gone down a 'Path of Destruction' not that they are weak force users.

Kaan had been many things- ambitious, charismatic, stubborn, and in the end a fool-but he had never been weak -Path of Destruction

Darthor wrote:You might argue, oh but that’s just the big named Ancients. Well yes, but the average Sith at the time of the great hyperspace war is the culmination of 1000 years of growth from cross-breeding between the Exiles and the Sith with the sole purpose of creating more powerful offspring: 

So you think the average Hyperspace War Sith are all > Exiles? Again, Idk why this does not also apply to the Jedi Lords and their hereditary lines of power etc, does this logic also go out the window here too?

Darthor wrote:A quick summary of this section: -The Jedi of the NSW wank are either based on hyper-literal interpretations of quotes, outright false, or utterly irrelevant 

Debunked and a side not on that, you did not address directly what exactly in your opinion was a hyper literal interpretation, or what exactly was false, you pretty much just covered most of the post w a 'yeah... no" response without adequate extrapolation on any specific points

Darthor wrote:-TOTJ was the Jedi at their “prime” and “golden age”, while the NSW Jedi are in their “dark ages”

Debunked 

Darthor wrote:-The Ancient Sith’s superiority to any member of the Brotherhood BY FAR is a concept very very ingrained into the narrative of the Bane novel

 Debunked

Darthor wrote:-The Average Sith during Odan Urr’s time was the culmination of 1000 years of cross-breeding to increase power and are part of the Sith Golden Age who “continued to grow under Ragnos” 

Ok cool, and then NSW is another 3000 years of progression above that 

Darthor wrote:-Odan Urr was the “Yoda of the Jedi” and the “Bane of the Sith”: 

Cool for Odan About that graph, what exactly do you see as dipping during the NSW? it seems to be power, but what kind of power, are you saying the Darkness got weaker?

Darthor wrote:Holy shit I love this name. Anyways, while Vaelias might paint the picture that Lord Hoth is a limitless god who is literally superior to the entirety of the Brotherhood. Not only is this obviously wrong because he was LOSING THE WAR and asked Farfalla for reinforcements, and only won the war with said reinforcements, but there are not one, but two instances in the novel that places a HARD CAP on Lord Hoth’s power.

Ok before we start here on this part, Hoth being the embodiment of the Army of Light's power, much like how we see it with Yoda etc, does not mean that power is all combatively applicable, I said Hoth holds the power of the Army of Light but I did not claim that him alone has the combative potency of the entire Army, and he can solo the Sith, lol as in Hoth isn't gonna unleash that power in a massive death wave that kills everything, that's not how the force functions you can hold power but it doesn't manifest through combat like DBZ lol, Anakin is the embodiment of the Force but he cant one shot the force or anything like that lol, so I can see you are misunderstanding the power functions from the get go here 

Darthor wrote:Firstly, Lord Hoth failed to defeat an ambush team: 

Well he didn't strictly fail to defeat an ambush team, he just didn't reach Pernicar in time, Pernicar "vanished beneath the sea of enemies" and Hoth went darting towards him in an unstoppable rage, but it was too late, he already vanished into the sea of enemies, I wouldn't exactly say It puts a HARD CAP on Hoth's power, since the Jedi are all pretty much fighting with what little they have left at this point weary weathered and worn from none stop battle, so he is not actually in any fit physical condition to be operating at his absolute peak for this to put a cap on his power, not to mention the conditions of the Force at the time, most of the Jedi being dead, Hoth is definitely not operating at his absolute best here, in fact the Jedi are described as half dead remains of Jedi at this point lol they have fought seven battles and are pretty much on deaths door lol

Poles appeared along both sides of the road. Each bore the scavenger-pecked remains of a Jedi - their clothes filled with momentary life as the wind pushed in to explore them. -Dark Forces: Jedi Knight

Does this sound like Hoth at his very best? and he is still unstoppable akin to the maw, they only went and gave him a comparison to the strongest thing in the galaxy, the only thing that can hold Celestial power, were as Odan says himself he is but a scholar, Odan Urr is not at all somebody who would get a comparison like that, Its like putting Einstein in the ring with Mike Tyson, something tells me Einstein isn't going to win that one.

Darthor wrote:A few things to note about this passage: -Lord Hoth would be absolutely bloodlust, as he was trying to save his best friend: pernicar. So Lord Hoth will have NO HOLDING BACK power whatsoever. This gives us a pretty good gauge of what will happen when he’s all-out. 

Think the above covers this enough 

Darthor wrote:-Lord Hoth gained an additional rage amp, said rage amps makes him “redouble his efforts” and “unstoppable in his fury”. While this is obviously great hype, it shows us his power BEYOND the normal boundaries of his power. Further note that he is unlikely to enter this stage against Urr as I will explain later

 As I mentioned above, Hoth is a character who walks a very fine line between light and dark, his rage isn't something that needs to be triggered, his base state is on the thin line to begin with, obvs when he wants to save his mate his efforts will no doubt he greater than his regular efforts, but I think if he is 1v1ing Odan Urr and his life etc is in danger then he won't just be holding back, besides the Hoth I am arguing for isn't a Hoth that will be holding back. 

Darthor wrote:-While this is a large number of Sith, they are made mostly off the weak Sith Lord who aren’t even deserving to be in the weak Brotherhood of Failures + random soldiers. Note also that the Army of Light, which Vaelias quantified to us of having a huge number, split into 3 canvarans, so Hoth would be fighting with one third of his troops.

 I don't believe I said it was split into 3, there a many different baronies that united into the Army idk where you got 3 from, and if you kept reading the same page It literally says there is about 12 Jedi with Hoth, so Id say your calculations are incorrect there, not to mention derived from something I didnt even say.

A moment later the swoops landed to cheers from the dozen or so Jedi still standing. Lord Valenthyne Farfalla, looking as fastidiously proper as ever, dismounted and bowed low before his general. -Path of Destruction

this is not an accurate basis for any comparison, not that it has anything to do with my claim anyhow

Darthor wrote:-Despite all the above, Hoth not only fails to save his best friend Pernicar with his absolute bloodlust and rage amp, but he himself will lose the battle too if not for Farfalla’s reinforcements.

Yeah there's a sea of enemies they are outnumbered they r all on deaths door they need some reinforcements, I don't think any of this actually has anything to do with my claim From this we can gauge the true extent of Lord Hoth’s power, which is that while rage amped blood lusted and with the help of ⅓ of the army of light he will still definitely lose to an ambush. This is not the exent of his power, because 1) power doesn't just manifest fully in combat, 2) Hoth has just fought 7 battles and is next to deaths door. And yeah him losing to an ambush isn't some sort of crazy Anti-Feat, I think somebody like Dooku or Yoda would almost certainly die here as well, especially under these conditions, we see Dooku lose to 30 pirates, and that's in the episode as a message to convey this idea, ,Jedi aren't DBZ characters, and numbers is the most effective thing against a Jedi, which we clearly see in AOTC, Hoth cant block in 100 places at once no matter how strong he is, a sea of enemies surrounding him, anybody would die without reinforcements here, its crazy that he is even alive here lol.

Dooku gets captured by a bunch of pirates. Yes now that, I think is very hard to believe except that there are thirty pirates around him, Now I agree wholeheartedly that Dooku is incredibly powerful but the fact remains that if he gets into a fight with thirty pirates, that yes he might kill fifteen of them but he will get shot and he will go down, all you gotta do is watch attack of the clones, how does Count Dooku thwart those Jedi. Sheer numbers, sheer numbers will defeat the Jedi -Clone Wars Season 1 “Dooku Captured” Featurette

Darthor wrote:Again to break down this quote: -Again, Lord Hoth will be analyzing the absolute MINIMUM of the Jedi he needs. Every Jedi he takes are going to die. Meaning he needs a MINIMUM of 99 Jedi to ensure victory -The quote also places a hard cap on Lord Hoth’s power. He is explicitly stated to be incapable of defeating the Sith brotherhood a