A Case for Exar Kun

He gained that power simultaneously with and purely to stop the Jedi's attack, it's not even really an incarnation of Kun as much as it is a ritual that went wrong. Kun with that power in a body is purely theoretical.

It's a permanent draining of the Massassi that Kun wielded prior to ascending into a spirit. Obviously it's an incarnation because he is alive.

LadyKulvax wrote:

S_W_LeGenD wrote:^^^

It does not change the fact that the source (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia) is explicitly advanced as an account of "historians." And it is outdated = these archives are incomplete.

WE are getting latest updates from SWTOR and affiliated books in fact. These updates make a solid case for Tulak Hord (versus Naga Sadow among others).

TCSWE is an IU Omniscient source fact-checked by Leland Chee. It's binding.

Dear,

That is the case with every encyclopedia released.



Because the lore is ever-expanding, new content provides a wider view of history than before and take precedence over older content for consultations. Leland Chee understands as much and does not believe in "absolutes."

You can certainly use older sources to inform your arguments but their context is LIMITED and they are never binding over further updates covering same themes and timelines. This is the logical take and course in practice including in academics.

Consider following example and analogy:

The Sith Emperor in the game is not the same that was discussed in Revan novel - Tenebrae changed and evolved after the events of Revan by creating VOICES in other living beings and he was able to manifest as The Sith Emperor to manage The Sith Empire and The Immortal Emperor to manage The Eternal Empire in tandem - all before the Great Galactic War. SWTOR-E (i.e. definitive guide and sourcebook) highlight The Sith Emperor aspect of Tenebrae but not the Valkorion aspect of Tenebrae even though this aspect of him also materialized many years before the Great Galactic War - shall WE assume that SWTOR-E is binding and further updates provided in SWTOR expansions do not matter? This is not a valid stance to adopt for virtually any theme.

That is absolutely not the case with all encyclopedias. That TCSWE is written from the perspective of a committee of omniscient beings around 150ABY is enormously different and infinitely more reliable. That this was fact-checked for accuracy by Leland Chee makes it outright the highest degree of C-canon in all manners. It is absolutely not undermined by it being IU, in actuality I would surmise that it's more reliable than most OOU sources.

So your original reply is moot.

LadyKulvax wrote:That is absolutely not the case with all encyclopedias. That TCSWE is written from the perspective of a committee of omniscient beings around 150ABY is enormously different and infinitely more reliable. That this was fact-checked for accuracy by Leland Chee makes it outright the highest degree of C-canon in all manners. It is absolutely not undermined by it being IU, in actuality I would surmise that it's more reliable than most OOU sources.

So your original reply is moot.

This is your own subjective take of the source and does not negate anything I have stated. Leland Chee have also stated on record that he does not believe in absolutes. Your contentions are moot, not mine. Feel free to hook me up with any author you wish to consult in this regard; I have consulted a few before and I can do this again. An coaching time.

Please show me anything in TCSWE about Tenebrae and his followers - anything. Simple explanation is this: "The Archives are Incomplete." Star Wars: Force and Destiny - Core Rulebook pointed much the same.

There is nothing subjective about what I have said. This is stated in the book itself.

LadyKulvax wrote:
Marka Ragnos states quite literally "My power is all that concerns you." as he is imbuing both men with power stated to be beyond any power Aleema Keto had ever achieved with magic:

Now sure, you can go ahead and argue that this doesn't mean Kun surpassed Ragnos. But here's the point. We know that Kun's TCSWE supremacy quote applies up to 'that point in the timeline'. Sansweet, the author, said so himself:

This means that Kun at some point surpassed Marka Ragnos, given that the above occurred and the exact wording of Ragnos, then it is more than safe to assume that said 'point in the timeline' was when Ragnos imbued him with his power and gave Kun the title of Dark Lord of the Sith.

Again, Marka Ragnos saying that his power is all that would concern Kun does not mean that Ragnos gave his whole power to Kun when he tapped into his head. Ragnos literally does the same thing to Ulic and both Kun and Ulic are seen to be evenly matched after. Does that mean Ragnos can just give his whole power unlimited number of times and whenever he wants? Does that mean that Ulic is superior to Ragnos? All that happens is Kun and Ulic receive dark side power from Ragnos and this does not prove any superiority by that point in time just from that. This would not contradict the "my power is all that concerns you" statement or make it out of place.

Kun's statement in the TCSWE really seems to be talking about Kun when he was alive and how he was once the most powerful Sith (during his period of reign). The use of the word "Once" at the beginning makes way more sense when applied to a time when Kun was alive rather than encompassing the whole timeline or history before. If they really wanted to state that Kun was the most powerful over the whole course of history's timeline, then it is way more likely that the wording would have been different and definitely made it clearer than simply using "Once". "Once" is a word to say "at one point in time" and so is nearly always about a certain point in the timeline rather than encompassing a whole timeline. 

I mean even the writer himself does definitively confirm your interpretation when he says something like "I think it's best to assume". That is not a definitive confirmation and so the quote is definitely up for interpretation and I do not find your interpretation valid at all when looking at the sentence structure and the wording used. I would also like to see the whole chat and not just this part of it.

I can't cite a source that doesn't exist in a published state yet. Luckily, Ant himself has talked to the authors of said source and made it clear they think he can only logically be an Exile. So it's a matter of when not if.

I was not talking about Tulak Hord becoming an Exile. I was talking about Naga Sadow being superior to Tulak Hord per KOTOR:CG assuming Tulak Hord is an Exile. You have posted this in another thread and I have addressed it there.

LadyKulvax wrote:There is nothing subjective about what I have said. This is stated in the book itself.

You are telling me something that I already know, and you have not addressed my real-world logical stance in any capacity. Because the lore is ever-expanding, new content provides a wider view of history than before and take precedence over older content for consultations. Leland Chee understands as much and does not believe in "absolutes." You can certainly use older sources to inform your arguments but their context is LIMITED and they are never binding over further updates covering same themes and timelines. This is the logical take and course in practice including in academics. This real-world practice is clearly documented in TCSWE as well:


how big is my monitor

You can notice "few things are certain" in a statement as well.

Per your logic, let us stick with revelations in The First Encyclopedia then - why bother with revelations in TCSWE? This is not how things work in the real-world irrespective of absolutism demonstrated by some members in this board.

DEFINITIVE = (of a conclusion or agreement) done or reached decisively and with authority.

What do you think is stated about SWTOR-E ???



Clearly mentioned on the FRONT COVER and inside.

This book is also written by multiple authors in close collaboration with LucasFilm and LucasArts - this is stated on the BACK COVER. When LucasFilm is involved in a work then this is an indication that Leland Chee will be involved in certain capacity because he is the holocron keeper for the lore after-all.



It is important to come to terms with updates - always.

Yes, an argument can be had for a certain piece of information in older literature but it should have strong logical basis to it.

I hope you understand now.

Darth Nihilus wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:
Marka Ragnos states quite literally "My power is all that concerns you." as he is imbuing both men with power stated to be beyond any power Aleema Keto had ever achieved with magic:

Now sure, you can go ahead and argue that this doesn't mean Kun surpassed Ragnos. But here's the point. We know that Kun's TCSWE supremacy quote applies up to 'that point in the timeline'. Sansweet, the author, said so himself:

This means that Kun at some point surpassed Marka Ragnos, given that the above occurred and the exact wording of Ragnos, then it is more than safe to assume that said 'point in the timeline' was when Ragnos imbued him with his power and gave Kun the title of Dark Lord of the Sith.

Again, Marka Ragnos saying that his power is all that would concern Kun does not mean that Ragnos gave his whole power to Kun when he tapped into his head. Ragnos literally does the same thing to Ulic and both Kun and Ulic are seen to be evenly matched after. Does that mean Ragnos can just give his whole power unlimited number of times and whenever he wants? Does that mean that Ulic is superior to Ragnos? All that happens is Kun and Ulic receive dark side power from Ragnos and this does not prove any superiority by that point in time just from that. This would not contradict the "my power is all that concerns you" statement or make it out of place.

Kun's statement in the TCSWE really seems to be talking about Kun when he was alive and how he was once the most powerful Sith (during his period of reign). The use of the word "Once" at the beginning makes way more sense when applied to a time when Kun was alive rather than encompassing the whole timeline or history before. If they really wanted to state that Kun was the most powerful over the whole course of history's timeline, then it is way more likely that the wording would have been different and definitely made it clearer than simply using "Once". "Once" is a word to say "at one point in time" and so is nearly always about a certain point in the timeline rather than encompassing a whole timeline. 

I mean even the writer himself does definitively confirm your interpretation when he says something like "I think it's best to assume". That is not a definitive confirmation and so the quote is definitely up for interpretation and I do not find your interpretation valid at all when looking at the sentence structure and the wording used. I would also like to see the whole chat and not just this part of it.

Yeah absolutely none of this is true. I appreciate that you're trying your hardest to prevent Nihilus caps but this isn't working.

You can't interpret sources with no valid reasoning. The writer saying 'best to assume' absolutely means this is the best interpretation possible, you trying to dismiss this simply on the basis of you not liking it doesn't do you any justice. Sansweet states the best assumption is that it means Kun is the most powerful up until that point in the timeline. This is outright confirmation, not wiggleroom. And it doesn't make any sense for it to be limited to his timeline in the first place, that'd just be a throw-away quote.

Kun is > Ragnos and Kun is also > everyone else bar him in the source material anyway.

LadyKulvax wrote:
Yeah absolutely none of this is true. 

Very powerful counterargument.

I appreciate that you're trying your hardest to prevent Nihilus caps but this isn't working.

Really? So now you are going to resort to BS irrelevant comments? What we are discussing here has got pretty much nothing to do with Nihilus, but I am not surprised you would go for BS comments just like many of your arguments.

You can't interpret sources with no valid reasoning. The writer saying 'best to assume' absolutely means this is the best interpretation possible, you trying to dismiss this simply on the basis of you not liking it doesn't do you any justice. Sansweet states the best assumption is that it means Kun is the most powerful up until that point in the timeline. This is outright confirmation, not wiggleroom. And it doesn't make any sense for it to be limited to his timeline in the first place, that'd just be a throw-away quote.

Literally nothing you mention here goes against what I am saying about the quote. The word choice of “Once” and the structure is very clear to me. You going around asking a writer many years later about a book he wrote in 2008, that had many other characters and information, and then having him say “I think it’s best to assume” is 100% not a definitive statement of Kun’s supremacy, especially when the wording choice does not support that at all. If the writer were to really confirm your interpretation, he would not say something like he “thinks it’s best to assume”. He would definitively tell you that it is. He probably does not even remember the interpretation behind the quote back when it was written in 2008 or 2007. Hence, why he likely says he “thinks” which leaves the quote entirely up for interpretation, where the word choice does not support your interpretation at all. No one uses “Once” to encompass a whole previous timeline or history, but rather at a certain point in time during said event. You also have not posted the whole chat to me.

If you are going to reply to me with the same old story, then just do not bother replying to me and wasting my time. 

BS arguments that have taken Kun from being a meme in 2017 to a serious contender for one of the top Sith again in 2020? Right. You can stop bandwagoning any time today because this is sad. First you're calling me annoying for repeating what's stated in sources and now this?

You can't tell me that you spending almost your entire career on nothing but attempting to counter any possible capping of Darth Nihilus; the Meetra Surik line, the Kreia lines and all sorts of other things, doesn't stand out when attempting now to knock off TOTJ Exar Kun from the top of the ancient Sith line, so you have one less plausible hard cap to deal with?

Your baseless claim is entirely dependent on a flawed interpretation of the sentence structure. The entire encyclopedia is from the perspective of an in-universe committee of omniscient beings looking back on history from the POV of 150ABY. The sentence structure is therefore absolutely supportive of Kun being once the most powerful Sith. The reason's he is once the most powerful is because first of all, he'd died 4,150 years before this was written and secondly, Darth Sidious came along, what is Sidious called in TCSWE?

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides

Your basis for it being an invalid interpretation is nothing.

Your dismissal of Sansweet's statement on the matter due to how long ago he had written it, is absolutely unwarranted and wreaks of handwaving. The rest of the conversation is literally just my question:

LadyKulvax wrote:
BS arguments that have taken Kun from being a meme in 2017 to a serious contender for one of the top Sith again in 2020? Right. You can stop bandwagoning any time today because this is sad. 

Barely anyone would consider Kun being one of the top Sith in 2020 based on anything you said when literally most people have him sub-Malak and you are outright in denial about it. Your arguments taking Kun from being a meme in 2017 to a serious contender are only in your head and barely anyone else believes so.

First you're calling me annoying for repeating what's stated in sources and now this?

I did not call you annoying for ‘stating sources’. I called you annoying because you always act as if what you are saying is always the right, obvious thing with the right interpretations. You were literally telling Vaelias to stop making blogs about his own character because you supposedly have everything right (yet could barely convince a single soul).

You can't tell me that you spending almost your entire career on nothing but attempting to counter any possible capping of Darth Nihilus; the Meetra Surik line, the Kreia lines and all sorts of other things, doesn't stand out when attempting now to knock off TOTJ Exar Kun from the top of the ancient Sith line, so you have one less plausible hard cap to deal with?

Oh yes and that is why I have also been debating you on Tulak vs Sadow because apparently I always have some evil Nihilus conspiracy behind everything I talk about… On a serious note, I really do not care what you think, so stop wasting my time with your own inner thoughts. I put an argument to a certain topic. What I have done in the past is entirely irrelevant to how good or bad the argument is. So, either address the argument or just be quiet.

Your baseless claim is entirely dependent on a flawed interpretation of the sentence structure. The entire encyclopedia is from the perspective of an in-universe committee of omniscient beings looking back on history from the POV of 150ABY. The sentence structure is therefore absolutely supportive of Kun being once the most powerful Sith. The reason's he is once the most powerful is because first of all, he'd died 4,150 years before this was written and secondly, Darth Sidious came along, what is Sidious called in TCSWE?

Your basis for it being an invalid interpretation is nothing.

Absolutely nothing you have said here goes against what I am saying.

Firstly, Kun dying 4150 years before this was written would not make the use of the word ‘Once’ encompass a whole previous timeline and is irrelevant. Again, Darth Sidious being the most powerful dark side user does not make the word “Once” encompass a whole previous timeline. I am also very well aware that the encyclopedia is from the perspective of an in-universe committee and this in fact goes against your point. IU historians are way more likely to state that Kun was the most powerful Sith during a certain specific point in time as they would know that there was a time when Kun reigned the Sith. How would IU historians be able to accurately tell and gauge that Kun is definitely the most powerful Sith over a whole previous timeline, assuming they even have perfect knowledge of the others. It is definitely more likely that, since they knew there was a time when Kun reigned, then he was the most powerful Sith of that time. Hence, the use of the word ‘Once’. This all lines up with my previous analysis of how the word is used in practically any sentence to mean ‘at a certain time’ or ‘at one point in time’ rather than a whole spectrum.

Your dismissal of Sansweet's statement on the matter due to how long ago he had written it, is absolutely unwarranted and wreaks of handwaving. The rest of the conversation is literally just my question:

The dismissal is not just based on ‘how long ago he had written it’.

1.The use of the word ‘Once’ makes it very clear that the whole statement is just saying that Kun was, at one point in time, the most powerful Sith. Nothing more.

2.The writer himself does not confirm your interpretation. He says he ‘thinks it’s best to assume’ making it clear that he is unsure of the interpretation of the quote when it was written, which is likely due to you asking him this question many years after he wrote the book back in 2008 that had tons of other characters and quotes.

In fact, now that you have post the whole chat, I very well see that his whole response was against your question of ‘Does it extend further?’ And he responds to you by choosing the other binary option you gave him: That it is best to assume it’s up to that point in the timeline only and does not extend further. He probably does not even remember writing the quote, from the other tons of quotes, to even remember the interpretation behind it (or we would have had a definitive answer to the interpretation rather than ‘I think’ and ‘best to assume’) and so just ends up going along with the 2 binary options you gave him and ends up answering your question by dismissing one of the options and choosing the other. I would bet that you purposefully gave him 2 binary options where both options implicitly stated that Kun was at least the most powerful Sith over the whole previous timeline before Kun and you knowingly and purposefully asked him this in order to get him to choose either of the 2 options you set up with implicit meaning. Why then didn’t you directly ask him whether the quote is stating if Kun was the most powerful Sith over the whole previous timeline or only at a certain point in time? You immediately jumped to the conclusion that the quote encompassed the whole previous timeline and set up 2 options that would include this meaning rather than asking him the real question.

It really is clear now and goes hand in hand with the whole previous points.

1.Barely convinced a soul, based on.... what? There's a dozen on this site that I can name off of the top of my head who don't hold to the Malak quote at all. You clearly don't know what you're talking about.

2.You wrote numerous blogs on why quotes that bind Nihilus aren't reliable or mean something else. Why would you expect anyone to assume anything else when you go after Kun's ancient supremacy?

3.You're stuck on assuming that the quote can only mean one thing. This just isn't the case. Kun's quote means he's the most powerful of the Dark Lords up until that point in the timeline. Sansweet confirmed that this doesn't mean as of his time. It means he's the most powerful Dark Lord until that point in the timeline. What Sansweet states is infinitely more important than your attempt at playing editor here. It means what he says it means.

4.Why is so difficult for people to comprehend the meaning of omniscience today?

AncientPower DESTROYS Darth Nihilus.

Sjuttiosju wrote:AncientPower DESTROYS Darth Nihilus.

Were the caps REALLY necessary?