Starkiller and Rahm Kota vs Darth Caedus and Kyle Katarn

Why is Kyle Jacen's superior

Contending with and depleting his reserves at the same time as Caedus despite Jacen being amped at the onset of the fight and having a constant influx of power due to aggravating injuries.

Just wanted to let you all know, I haven't forgotten about this and should have a reply out soon.

When Caedus or Katarn are dead lifting Venators this thread will be valid. Until then lets move along.

When Starkiller and Kota aren't capped below people Caedus scales massively above this thread will be valid. Until then let's move along.

How is Starkiller capped below Vader?

He isn't.

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t3352-ss-starkiller-arkhamasylum3-vs-qui-gon-jinn-meatpants

Setting aside that the only thing that can be used to put Jacen anywhere near Vader is a book blurb. 

In fact book blurbs, cancelled ones most of all, are the only place Jacen really gets any shine.

DC greydolling

@KingKopecz

Seeing as you want me to release this reply early - before the others - I have:

Too bad the game isn't canon. Only the novel and comic are.

Why wouldn’t the game be canon? It seems awfully convenient to your argument to dismiss it without any grounds or explanation for doing so. Especially not when:

http://www.st-v-sw.net/CanonWars/SWCanonquotes2.html#Licensing.%C2%A0 wrote:Okay, I know that the novels are C-level, and I assume that most of the newer comics are also C-level. Where on the continuity spectrum to the Video games come in?

...continuity ”C” canon which is pretty much everything else. By everything else I mean EVERYthing else. Novels, comics, junior novels, videogames, trading card games, roleplaying games, toys, websites, television. As I've mentioned earlier, any contradictions that arise are dealt on a case-by-case.

...games are confirmed as continuity canon alongside novels, comics, etc. This is according to Lucasfilm Licensing, and sure, the forum rules which bind you to listening to them are gone, but if you choose to dismiss them then virtually everything lands on even footing and you’d have no grounds for saying otherwise, because there would be no authority which decides what is canon and what isn’t, and your word on the subject carries no more weight than mine.

Continuing from that, the only grounds for dismissal I can think of is a direct contradiction with the novelization, but, unfortunately for you, the novelization doesn’t go into great detail on how long Starkiller was actually defending the Lightning for, so the videogame’s depiction does not contradict, and thus is entirely canonical.

And, as a final point, this is a blatant double standard given that your entire argument in favour of Vader is Vader ragdolling Galen in the videogame - which is described in the prima guide. The games aren’t canon when they don’t suit your bias, but they are when they do? Lol.

You sure?

Yes. The picture of Galen’s corpse was the result of him blowing himself up in his Oneness blast, not him getting fried by Palpatine’s Lightning.

Well then the point still stands if even you are admitting his defeat was inevitable.

No, it doesn’t. Your original point was this: “He defended against Palpatine's lightning for only a few seconds before getting fried.” This point evidently doesn’t stand if; (A) Galen wasn’t fried, and (B) he lasted way longer than a few seconds, and perhaps could have lasted longer if not for Juno and the rebels being in immediate danger; as both points are in direct opposition to your argument, regardless of my agreement of his inferiority to Palpatine. That agreement isn’t even relevant in an overall broader sense, either, because I never made the claim that Galen ~ Palpatine - so that’s not what you should be trying to debunk - I made the claim that his performance there scales him beyond Jinn which can still hold even if he’s inferior to Palpatine - as Sidious is obviously vastly above Jinn.

Marek's tutaminis had nothing to do with speed. You don't have to be a speedster to intercept Palpatine's lightning.

Agreed, but that’s not the point. The point is that Galen shows he’s way more powerful than Jinn by deflecting Palpatine’s Lightning, and that his greater power displayed there translates into better Force Augmentation (i.e. when Force Users augment their base stats), so he should be able to augment himself to be way faster than Jinn who is much faster and more powerful than Vader. This means he’d be much, much, much faster (and considerably more powerful) than Vader, so he should be able to stomp him in a Lightsaber duel or a Force contest.

If we are taking that Lucas quote for granted here then Marek is locked under ANH Vader in terms of speed.

What on earth does a Lucas quote saying Vader is below Jinn have to do with Marek being locked below ANH Vader in speed?

Firstly it's obvious given the context. Marek is Vader's tool, he won't be trying to kill someone who has uses to him.

Marek’s uses ended as soon as he rooted out the rebels for Vader and then turned on him. If Vader still planned to use Marek then why is it that he tried to kill him and left him for dead on Corelia?

If you want quotes there are a few that imply Vader was not going all out.

"His Master had either held back, or he himself had capitulated."

...that quote is referring to previous duels, and the text directly follows by saying, “Now, for the first time, they would see each other's true potential.”, making it clear that this duel is different from their previous fights, as Marek would finally see the full limit of Vader’s capabilities.

"Then the Dark Lord laughed."

Why does Vader laughing in mockery of Marek imply he was holding back? Characters can laugh in fights while going all out - Sidious does so against Yoda in ROTS.

Palps ordering him to do that doesn't mean he actually did.

Consistently throughout the EU Vader basically follows his Master’s every command, and here he has no reason to disobey. The text even follows up by making it clear that he’s obeying the command: “The Dark Lord was already moving. The red blade of his lightsaber flared into life, casting bloody shadows across the room. There was no discussion. He offered no threats. It was clear he intended only to complete what he had failed to finish on Corellia.”

Vague quote as it is not exactly known what he aimed to do on Corellia.

You’ve got to be joking:

The Force Unleashed Novelization wrote:A feeling of acceptance infused him. The mission his Master had given him was complete: the Rebels had been gathered in one spot so they could be taken and killed. That was the one reason he had been spared, when Darth Vader had stabbed him in the back on the Emperor’s orders. His one remaining duty was to die.

[...]

Darth Vader raised his bloody blade, but the sound of another lightsaber igniting behind him forced the Dark Lord to turn around.

[...]

Remembering the apprentice, he wheeled back toward the cliff. The boy he had wrested from Kashyyyk watched dispassionately, not fearing if he was discovered. But Vader saw nothing because there was nothing to see. His former apprentice was less than a thought on the wind, removed from everything he had been and all that he had failed to do by an act of will greater than any he had achieved before.

Vader lowered his lightsaber and stalked back into the ruins, where stormtroopers had bound the rebels like criminals and were marching them through the shattered doors.

Suddenly the apprentice was back in his body. The cliff’s edge and his life’s ruin was far, far above him. He could feel nothing at all, physically or emotionally, except a vague curiosity.

What is it about dying, he asked himself, that brings out the best in me? First seeing the future . . . then leaving my body . . .

The world turned black and cold. There was nothing he could do to stop that, so he gave in to it and let all his concerns wash away.

One last thought curdled incomplete in his mind: I wish I could’ve told Juno . . .

Then he was gone into the deep and dreamless dark.

Have you even read TFU?

That has nothing to with him being unfamiliar with his fighting style. All that happened is he was caught of guard with his strength.

Same point

The fact that it was specifically Vader’s strength that allowed him to gain the advantage in this instance does not mean the passage is solely referring to that element - you’ve provided no basis for such. The phrase, “He thought he was ready…”, is a direct follow up to Marek thinking about Vader’s fighting style:

The Force Unleashed wrote:The apprentice knew exactly what to expect. They had dueled many times before. He had learned how to fight at the hands of the man in the black suit - the man whose face had been forever hidden from him. He knew the intimacies of his refined version of Djem So, a fighting style that incorporated elements of Ataru, Soresu, and Makashi. He had fended off many wild, slashing attacks that would have overwhelmed even an extraordinary Jedi Knight. He had borne the brunt of many psychological battles.

He thought he was ready - and so the sheer severity of the opening blow took him by surprise.

...indicating that the entire point is that his knowledge wasn’t sufficient in preparing him for this fight, so arguing that it was a/the reason he won is blatantly contradictory to the actual text.

Wrong. Vader has fought many people in his life time, Marek has not, hence he only focused on a few fighting styles.

The fact that Vader has fought many people in his lifetime (most of whom he’s probably only duelled once or a few times), doesn’t mean he doesn’t have just as in-depth knowledge as Marek does of the intricacies of his opponent’s fighting style who he taught for a decade and a half (and presumably sparred innumerable times with). Obi-Wan and Anakin had both fought many other opponents, but they still knew each other “more intimately than lovers” due to thousands of hours of sparring, etc - which is presumably the same for Marek and Vader. In fact, it’s not as if his knowledge could get muddled up amongst knowledge of others, because he’ll want ways to control Marek if they ever come to blows, and this offers him the perfect opportunity to have that edge, so he’d make an active effort to analyse Marek’s style (he’d also do this for the reason of correcting mistakes to make sure Marek doesn’t get skewered by Jedi, lol) - and we even have a general precedent for Sith Masters doing this, too (e.g. Dooku and Ventress, Dooku and Grievous - not a Sith duo, but the principle/dynamic still applies - etc).

I never ignored Starkiller's feats. No SK doesn't stomp Vader, he's sub Maul.

You did ignore the feat, though. I’ve mentioned it several times, and you’ve repeatedly failed to address it. Again, the fact that SK pulverises the army of Starkiller Clones who could have “easily overpowered” Vader precludes the two from being close, and there’s a readily available explanation provided in the novel for the fight - SK’s exhaustion (and we’ve seen exhaustion can cause major decreases like I’m describing, as I explained before - which is another point you’ve failed to address). This, on top of his feat against Palpatine, and stomping of Vader in TFU (you’ve conceded the fight was a stomp by silently not replying to my reasons for it being one) - which I’ve addressed your rationalisations for - should make it blatantly clear that Starkiller is vastly more powerful than Vader circa TFU and TFU 2.

--- --- ---

P.S. You’ve also conceded to my final point by virtue of posting a meme image in place of actual argumentation.

...and that should be everything. However, I did write this reply in parts because it was tedious due to how cringe the points were, so tell me if I missed anything.

Caedus solos

Caedus solos and it isn't close.

Kota can take either.

Starkiller solos

The ignorance is truly immeasurable.