Starkiller and Rahm Kota vs Darth Caedus and Kyle Katarn

HeartoftheForce wrote:

Caedus was confirmed by Luke to be above RotJ Vader. I won't be taking this for granted since Vader never went all out on Luke though it should still be enough to place him over TFU II Vader who is barely above Maul.

Haven't seen that quote. But even then Luke's view of Vader is hilariously inflated. For instance when Geth oneshotted him Luke was of the opinion that Vader could have done that "if he tried" despite Luke being his confirmed equal/slight superior in RotJ and Luke have progressed way past that. And even then Caedus has no feats to put him above Vader.

Doesn't refer to a certain specific encounter between him and Vader. Could be ESB, SotME or anything else which wouldn't be impressive at all.

The only fight Luke would view under that context would be RotJ as it's the only one he went into with the hard set perspective that Vader was conflicted and going easy.

Vader might be conflicted but matters not. Don't see why he should get the impression of Vader going easy on him and the other materials also do not support it. ESB on the otherhand fits. So the quote is completely pointless.

Stomping Red Guards who are credited as being as skilled as Vader,

Royal Guards* They aren't as skilled as Vader. Two of them(Burr and Kanos) were stomped by Vader in different instances.

HeartoftheForce wrote:

Caedus was confirmed by Luke to be above RotJ Vader. I won't be taking this for granted since Vader never went all out on Luke though it should still be enough to place him over TFU II Vader who is barely above Maul.

Haven't seen that quote. But even then Luke's view of Vader is hilariously inflated. For instance when Geth oneshotted him Luke was of the opinion that Vader could have done that "if he tried" despite Luke being his confirmed equal/slight superior in RotJ and Luke have progressed way past that. And even then Caedus has no feats to put him above Vader.

Surviving a fight against an enraged GM Luke puts him above most incarnations of Vader.

I'm willing to see any examples. Kota one shotted by TFU I Vader.

Kota matching Lvl 1&2 Marek in all areas. Stomping Red Guards who are credited as being as skilled as Vader, mastering all 7 lightsaber forms. Etc etc. That's better than Jacen getting clapped by a Mara who was exhausted by collapsing a 1.5 meter tall cave. 

Caedus would be oneshot by TFU 1 Vader as well so simply saying that doesn't help here.

Are we comparing Kota to Katarn or Caedus here? Either way, Kota is fodder compared to both of them. The version of Marek he contended with struggled to fight Shaak Ti. The royal guards aren't as skilled as Vader and mastering 7 lightsaber forms isn't enough to make you on the level of Caedus. Is Kas'im on the level of Caedus in that case?

And no TFU 1 Vader does not one shot Caedus. This is pretty much the same version of Vader that could barely beat Maul. Leia was able to not get one shot by a more powerful version of Vader which shows how embarrassing it was for Kota to get one shot.

@Sith Archivist

Surviving a fight against an enraged GM Luke puts him above most incarnations of Vader.

You mean a suicidal mental wreck Luke who can barely use the force and is deliberately taking hits so he can suffer? Care to quantify this Luke in any way shape or form? I'd say he's pretty crap considering Mara Jade beat Caedus in less time with less trouble than he was having. 

Are we comparing Kota to Katarn or Caedus here?

I mean Katarn is more powerful so whatever floats your boat.

The version of Marek he contended with struggled to fight Shaak Ti.

Once again. Prove Katarn or Jacen would do any better. You keep throwing around names here and then nothing to back it up.

The royal guards aren't as skilled as Vader 

mastering 7 lightsaber forms isn't enough to make you on the level of Caedus. Is Kas'im on the level of Caedus in that case?

This was to pre-empt any attempt to bring up Kyle's mastery of all 7. Which is his only saber accolade of note. 

And no TFU 1 Vader does not one shot Caedus.

Proof?

This is pretty much the same version of Vader that could barely beat Maul.

Once again throwing at a name with no backing. Maul would beat Caedus as well.

Leia was able to not get one shot by a more powerful version of Vader which shows how embarrassing it was for Kota to get one shot.

If you knew anything about the scene you posted, hell even bothered to read it you know that


1. Vader is being caught off guard by Leia being force sensitive at all 
2. Leia is being amped by the Kyber crystal which amp your force abilities "a thousand fold"
3. Vader does oneshot Leia. Immediately after her lucky glance he starts slashing her apart and torturing her. Read the dialogue of a panel before you post it. 


@Sith Archivist 

The royal guards aren't as skilled as Vader 

[/quote]

This isn't meant to be taken seriously, the actual evidence shows that Royal Guards aren't on Vader's level where he basically stomps two of them and even that quote says they aren't. The best you could take away is that the RG are highly skilled, which they are.

HeartoftheForce wrote:

Surviving a fight against an enraged GM Luke puts him above most incarnations of Vader.

You mean a suicidal mental wreck Luke who can barely use the force and is deliberately taking hits so he can suffer? Care to quantify this Luke in any way shape or form?

Luke wasn't holding back lol, he was trying hard to brutally kill Caedus.

I'd say he's pretty crap considering Mara Jade beat Caedus in less time with less trouble than he was having. 

Is that why Mara ended up dying then?

Are we comparing Kota to Katarn or Caedus here?

I mean Katarn is more powerful so whatever floats your boat.

Dude what? You went from comparing Kota to Katarn to comparing him to Caedus. You can't even keep to your own narrative.

The version of Marek he contended with struggled to fight Shaak Ti.

Once again. Prove Katarn or Jacen would do any better. You keep throwing around names here and then nothing to back it up.

I've already said why Caedus is above most versions of Vader let alone Shaak Ti. Kyle is also above Ti. Defeating Jerec while pre-prime > anything Ti ever did.

The royal guards aren't as skilled as Vader 

Hyperbole

This is pretty much the same version of Vader that could barely beat Maul.

Once again throwing at a name with no backing. Maul would beat Caedus as well.

In what way would Maul beat Caedus? Even if you believe that, Maul would have to beat him almost instantly if you think Caedus gets one shot by TFU I Vader.

Luke wasn't holding back lol, he was trying hard to brutally kill Caedus.

Luke isn't "holding back" per se. He's literally incapable of calling on his power

Yoda had told Luke that electrical shocks, applied at different intensities and at irregular but frequent intervals, would prevent a Jedi from concentrating, from channeling the Force. They could render a Jedi helpless.

But Yoda had never told Luke that emotional shocks could do the same thing.

They could. And just as no amount of self-control would allow a Jedi to ignore the effects of electrical shocks on his body, neither could self-control keep Luke safely out of his memories. Every few moments a memory, freshly applied like a current-bearing wire on his skin, would yank him out of the here and now and propel him into the recent past.

Boarding the Anakin Solo. Finding Jacen torturing—torturing—Luke’s only child, his son Ben. The duel that followed, Luke against the nephew he’d once loved…

- LotF: Fury

And Yes Luke is contemplating suicide. He lacks the will to live. As we know willpower is key to force usage.

And then he was pacing, running his fingers through his hair, ruffling it as though the sudden untidiness would help the thoughts escape. "You want to be with Mom."

"Of course I do. Don't you?"

"Yes, but for me it's different. I want her to be here, with us." Ben stopped in midstride and whirled to face his father, a graceful move that Luke could appreciate with the Jedi Master portion of his mind. "You want to be with her where she is."

"What do you mean?"

"You want to be dead. At peace. With her. Dead."

"That's ridiculous."

"No, it isn't. When Uncle Han and Aunt Leia told us Alema Rar was dead, you should have said, Now I can get back to work. Instead, you're saying Now I can turn over the Jedi Order to someone who's worthy. You're getting ready to die. Problem is, you don't have an incurable disease or a blaster pressed against your head. So how's it going to happen?" Ben's voice cracked on the final word.

"Ben, that is so, so ... You're just leaping to the wrong conclusion." Luke struggled for the right argument to make his son see that this was a ridiculous notion.

But the argument just wasn't there.

- LotF Fury

And again, Luke was intentionally hurting himself in the Caedus fight.

But Jacen thrived on pain, fed on it to make himself stronger and faster. He simply completed his pivot and landed a rib-crunching roundhouse.


Luke stumbled back, his chest filled with fire. Jacen had caught him on the barely healed scar from his first fight with Lumiya, and now his breath was coming in short painful gasps.

Good, Luke thought. This was supposed to hurt.

- LotF Inferno 

Luke when stuck in similar states has been relegated to Cilghal level. Perhaps even lower. So unless you have a concrete way to gauge the version of Luke, a mental suicidal wreck, who fought Jacen (and still quite frankly walloped him) it's pointless to bring him up. Especially considering.

 Is that why Mara ended up dying then?

Mara died due to Jacen tricking her with an illusion of her son. Before that she the won fight. Remember Jacen may have had a small 1.5 meter ceiling collapse on him, but Mara then had an adrenaline amped Jacen hurled that same debris at her "with the force of a bomb", she tanked it, got up, deflected and matched all of Jacens TK, beat the crap out of him in sabers and had him dead to rights.

Mara, despite being in vastly worse straits, owned Jacen.

Dude what? You went from comparing Kota to Katarn to comparing him to Caedus. You can't even keep to your own narrative.

No you just can't keep up. Katarn is just as, if not more powerful than Jacen. So in answer to

Are we comparing Kota to Katarn or Caedus here?

The answer is both as they are interchangeable. 

I've already said why Caedus is above most versions of Vader

Which was shown to be bunk. Next.

Kyle is also above Ti. Defeating Jerec while pre-prime > anything Ti ever did.

Kyle never defeated Jerec. As confirmed in the novel he blindsided Jerec while he was distracted by the VotJ nexus and cut off his force connection. Kyle then oneshot a blind defenseless old man. 

Also, Kyle as of that game is confirmed to be below Brotherhood of Darkness fodder. So Kyle isn't touching Jerec conventionally. 

In what way would Maul beat Caedus?

Superior TK as of his early teens prior to massive growth and vastly better dueling abilities. 

Even if you believe that, Maul would have to beat him almost instantly if you think Caedus gets one shot by TFU I Vader.

Duh.

@Sith Archivist 

@Sith Archivist

He's stated to be below Vader in TFU II prima guide

Citation needed.

and by Sam Witwer.

If you're referring to Sam Witwer's statements about Vader toying with Starkiller, those don't matter in VS debating because they're about early concepts for a game that was never made, and thus have no canonical value. In contrast, the statements saying Vader was going all out - from the novelization and the script of TFU 2 - do have canonical value, and thus overrule Witwer's statements.

NotAA3 wrote:@Sith Archivist

He's stated to be below Vader in TFU II prima guide

Citation needed.

and by Sam Witwer.

If you're referring to Sam Witwer's statements about Vader toying with Starkiller, those don't matter in VS debating because they're about early concepts for a game that was never made, and thus have no canonical value. In contrast, the statements saying Vader was going all out - from the novelization and the script of TFU 2 - do have canonical value, and thus overrule Witwer's statements.

“You grab your sabers and attack, but Vader is too powerful. He tosses you away like a rag doll.

-- Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide”

@Sith Archivist

I'm assuming you've conceded on Witwer's statements given that you didn't reply? If so, lovely.

“You grab your sabers and attack, but Vader is too powerful. He tosses you away like a rag doll.

-- Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide”

Per the novelization, Starkiller was "exhausted" when he fought Vader, so any evidence of superiority within the fight doesn't necessarily apply to Peak Starkiller.

As for the quote itself, "too powerful" doesn't mean more powerful, it just means Vader's powerful "to a higher degree than is desirable, permissible, or possible" (per the definition) which is certainly true if he's ragdolling Starkiller when SK's trying to cut him down - I'm sure Starkiller would find it more "desirable" or "permissible" if Vader were weaker than he really is.

And, as a final point, Starkiller was likely ragdolled due to his emotional vulnerability in that specific instance, as I've detailed in another debate (which I'll copy-paste here, as I have no desire to repeat myself):

Starkiller states Vader's plan by killing Juno was an attempt to destabilise him:

The Force Unleashed II Novelization wrote:This was what Darth Vader had wanted all along. He had been right to fear that Juno was in danger, but not just from clones like him-from Vader, who would use her death to destabilise Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair.

Generally, when a Force User has been destabilised (emotionally compromised), their ability to use the Force is diminished as is noted by HK-47:

HK-47 wrote:Generally, this was done by broadcasting strong emotions while thinking about something else. It was a curious technique, but it seemed to be effective in blinding Jedi. Whether guilt, lust, fear - they act as mental interference, making finding the true intentions of the broadcasting meatbag difficult. Obviously, a Force Sensitive broadcasting such emotions puts themselves at risk of not using the Force "properly," since to use it seems to require an inner calm that most meatbags do not possess. As much as the Jedi could not use such a technique, the Sith Lords cannot use it for much the same reasons - such passions as guilt, lust, and fear are rarely strengths to the Sith code.

If you read the novelization, you'll find that SK was exhibiting all the underlined emotions, making it clear Vader's plan to destabilise him worked.

Guilt: "Horror and self-reproach filled his mind. He hadn't seen her crawling for the lightsaber; he hadn't sensed her desperate plan until the very last moment-and it was his alarm that had alerted Vader, he was sure of it."

Fear: "Instead, he had thought only of saving Juno-a plan, he feared, that might always have been doomed to failure . . . He had been right to fear that Juno was in danger, but not just from clones like him-from Vader, who would use her death to destabilize Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair."

NotAA3 wrote:@Sith Archivist

I'm assuming you've conceded on Witwer's statements given that you didn't reply? If so, lovely.

“You grab your sabers and attack, but Vader is too powerful. He tosses you away like a rag doll.

-- Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide”

Per the novelization, Starkiller was "exhausted" when he fought Vader, so any evidence of superiority within the fight doesn't necessarily apply to Peak Starkiller.

As for the quote itself, "too powerful" doesn't mean more powerful, it just means Vader's powerful "to a higher degree than is desirable, permissible, or possible" (per the definition) which is certainly true if he's ragdolling Starkiller when SK's trying to cut him down - I'm sure Starkiller would find it more "desirable" or "permissible" if Vader were weaker than he really is.

And, as a final point, Starkiller was likely ragdolled due to his emotional vulnerability in that specific instance, as I've detailed in another debate (which I'll copy-paste here, as I have no desire to repeat myself):

Starkiller states Vader's plan by killing Juno was an attempt to destabilise him:

The Force Unleashed II Novelization wrote:This was what Darth Vader had wanted all along. He had been right to fear that Juno was in danger, but not just from clones like him-from Vader, who would use her death to destabilise Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair.

Generally, when a Force User has been destabilised (emotionally compromised), their ability to use the Force is diminished as is noted by HK-47:

HK-47 wrote:Generally, this was done by broadcasting strong emotions while thinking about something else. It was a curious technique, but it seemed to be effective in blinding Jedi. Whether guilt, lust, fear - they act as mental interference, making finding the true intentions of the broadcasting meatbag difficult. Obviously, a Force Sensitive broadcasting such emotions puts themselves at risk of not using the Force "properly," since to use it seems to require an inner calm that most meatbags do not possess. As much as the Jedi could not use such a technique, the Sith Lords cannot use it for much the same reasons - such passions as guilt, lust, and fear are rarely strengths to the Sith code.

If you read the novelization, you'll find that SK was exhibiting all the underlined emotions, making it clear Vader's plan to destabilise him worked.

Guilt: "Horror and self-reproach filled his mind. He hadn't seen her crawling for the lightsaber; he hadn't sensed her desperate plan until the very last moment-and it was his alarm that had alerted Vader, he was sure of it."

Fear: "Instead, he had thought only of saving Juno-a plan, he feared, that might always have been doomed to failure . . . He had been right to fear that Juno was in danger, but not just from clones like him-from Vader, who would use her death to destabilize Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair."

Being exhausted isn't a large disadvantage if you are a force user. If exhausted Starkiller is described as a rag doll in comparison to Vader then Starkiller is still sub Vader under normal circumstances.

@Sith Archivist

Being exhausted isn't a large disadvantage if you are a force user.

We've seen Luke go from a top tier to being Olaris Rhea level when exhausted, it clearly can be a major disadvantage - it depends on the extent - and we know Starkiller can decimate Vader at peak, per a multitude of indicators:

(1) Defending against Sheev's Lightning.
(2) Pulverising the army of Starkiller clones with a Force Wave who could have "easily overpowered" Vader.
(3) Stomping Vader at the end of TFU 1 (note that Starkiller confirms Vader is on the same level in both novels).

If exhausted Starkiller is described as a rag doll in comparison to Vader then Starkiller is still sub Vader under normal circumstances.

Starkiller being tossed like a ragdoll doesn't even mean he's inferior to Vader (why would it, even ignoring the circumstances?), because of the circumstances mentioned in my last post (i.e. emotional hindrances). Moreover, Starkiller clearly isn't below Vader normally, given that he already defeated Vader in the Cloning Tower - only not finishing him due to being hit by a random vision at the moment where he was going to strike him down - and duelled evenly with him after the ragdolling; even defeating him in certain iterations of the fight (i.e. the comic and DS version of the game).

NotAA3 wrote:@Sith Archivist

Being exhausted isn't a large disadvantage if you are a force user.

We've seen Luke go from a top tier to being Olaris Rhea level when exhausted, it clearly can be a major disadvantage - it depends on the extent - and we know Starkiller can decimate Vader at peak, per a multitude of indicators:

(1) Defending against Sheev's Lightning.
(2) Pulverising the army of Starkiller clones with a Force Wave who could have "easily overpowered" Vader.
(3) Stomping Vader at the end of TFU 1 (note that Starkiller confirms Vader is on the same level in both novels).

He defended against Palpatine's lightning for only a few seconds before getting fried. That's not enough to make him more powerful than Vader.
Also he didn't 'stomp' Vader at the end of TFU I, you are seriously overhyping Marek if you think that. It was a close fight and Vader only lost because 1. He wasn't going all out and 2. Marek was very familiar with Vader's fighting style.

If exhausted Starkiller is described as a rag doll in comparison to Vader then Starkiller is still sub Vader under normal circumstances.

Starkiller being tossed like a ragdoll doesn't even mean he's inferior to Vader (why would it, even ignoring the circumstances?), because of the circumstances mentioned in my last post (i.e. emotional hindrances). Moreover, Starkiller clearly isn't below Vader normally, given that he already defeated Vader in the Cloning Tower - only not finishing him due to being hit by a random vision at the moment where he was going to strike him down - and duelled evenly with him after the ragdolling; even defeating him in certain iterations of the fight (i.e. the comic and DS version of the game).

Same point again

Starkiller becoming enlightened. Vader a little too slow and misses a block. Gets three deep cuts and then blasted with a generator.

"Starkiller ragdolls"

@Sith Archivist

He defended against Palpatine's lightning for only a few seconds before getting fried.

He defended against Palpatine's Lightning for 20-30 seconds (per the videogame), not "a few", and never got "fried" at any point - he was never overpowered by Palpatine and only died because he deliberately blew himself up (although, he would have lost eventually).

That's not enough to make him more powerful than Vader.

Why not? Jinn is more powerful, faster, and more skilled than Vader (per Lucas); yet he got decisively beaten by TPM Maul; who is way below TCW Maul; who got destroyed by Sidious with backup. That's way less impressive than defending against Sidious's Lightning.

Also he didn't 'stomp' Vader at the end of TFU I, you are seriously overhyping Marek if you think that. It was a close fight

The novelization disagrees:

The Force Unleashed Novelization wrote:"I don't need to hate you in order to beat you," he gasped. "That's something I will teach you now."

"You can teach me nothing," Darth Vader's leaden voice intoned. One black glove clenched, and for a moment the apprentice's throat closed tight.

He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room.

For all his size and occasional clumsiness, the Dark Lord was sure on his feet. He landed upright and launched himself back into the fray.

"I don't hate you," the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. "I pity you." With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot. "You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you." A strip of Darth Vader's cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. "You are his creature just as I was yours - but you've never had the strength to rebel. That's why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I'll make sure you don't, either."

Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot.

"I will kill you," he said, "to set you free."

The lightsabers flashed again - and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound.

There was no blood. Instead of pressing the attack, the apprentice stood his ground. Despite himself, he was as surprised as his former Master clearly was.

For a moment, the only sounds were the twin humming of the lightsabers and the wheezing of Darth Vader’s respirator.

Then the Dark Lord laughed.

It was an awful sound, empty of humor and full of mockery. In it, the apprentice heard a decade and a half of torture and abuse.

Anger flared. He lunged forward. His former Master barely blocked the blow. A second scored a deep wound across his black-clad shoulder. A third stabbed deep into his thigh.

Darth Vader reeled backward, servos whining in his injured limbs and lightsaber shaking.

The apprentice gripped his lightsaber in both hands and held himself back. Anger was familiar and powerful; it also clouded his eyes when he most needed to see clearly.

Vader prepared for combat again. His power over the apprentice, however, was gone. His lightsaber went skittering and sparking across the floor, twisted out of his grip by telekinesis. The Force wrenched him into the air, as he had once lifted the apprentice's father, and a barrage of missiles struck at him with increasing strength. He raised his gloved hands to defend himself, but the battery continued until, with a crash, the apprentice ripped the energy field generator in the center of the room right out of the floor and hurled it at his former Master.

The generator exploded with greater force than he had expected, throwing him and everyone else to the floor. The transparisteel dome shattered. Debris rained everywhere. The sound of the explosion rang in his ears for an unnaturally long time afterward.

He was the first to his feet, striding across the rubble to where Darth Vader lay face-forward, gravely wounded and stripped of his armor in places. Flesh and machinery showed through the gaps. Finally, some real blood was flowing.

Vader being forced on the back foot, being unable to disengage, and then being struck repeatedly before being telekinetically dominated isn't a good fight in any context.

and Vader only lost because 1. He wasn't going all out

Citation needed; the text clearly indicates otherwise:

The Force Unleased Novelization wrote:"Lord Vader, deal with the boy. Properly, this time."

The Dark Lord was already moving. The red blade of his lightsaber flared into life, casting bloody shadows across the room. There was no discussion. He offered no threats. It was clear he intended only to complete what he had failed to finish on Corellia.

---

and 2. Marek was very familiar with Vader's fighting style.

Correction: Marek thinks he's familiar with Vader's fighting style. Unfortunately for you, he's proven wrong the instant they start duelling:

The Force Unleashed Novelization wrote:He thought he was ready-and so the sheer severity of the opening blow took him by surprise.

[...]

The apprentice understood that, until this moment, they had never truly fought as equals. His Master had either held back, or he himself had capitulated. Now, for the first time, they would see each other's true potential.

But, if you want to play this game, Vader would likewise have this familiarity - he's duelled Starkiller as many times as Starkiller has duelled him - so it goes both ways, and neither combatant has a unique advantage.

--- --- ---

Also, given that you've completely ignored the Starkiller Clones feat, I'm assuming that's a concession? Great, Starkiller stomps Vader.

--- --- ---

Same point again

??? My rebuttal directly addresses your reply that SK's exhaustion wasn't a massive factor, and points out that he was emotionally hindered during the ragdolling, too. It also brings up other relevant points like the duel in the Cloning Tower, etc.

Replying with "same point again" is just fucking lazy and does not count as a rebuttal (especially since your original point is entirely unsubstantiated). Try actually replying next time.

@Meatpants

Starkiller becoming enlightened. Vader a little too slow and misses a block.

When you insert your own words like "a little" into the passages in order to make a case, you know you have no argument.

Gets three deep cuts and then blasted with a generator.

Correct: "Vader being forced on the back foot, being unable to disengage, and then being struck repeatedly before being telekinetically dominated isn't a good fight in any context."

"Starkiller ragdolls"

Despite accusing me of strawmanning you a lot in virtually every debate we've had, you seem to do rather a lot of it yourself. Quote me where I've said Starkiller can ragdoll Vader in this discussion, and not simply stomp him? Oh, and don't bring up me saying Marek "telekinetically dominated Vader" as a reply, because that's just a description of what happened, and I recognize the circumstances to it.

@NotAA3 Expect a response tomorrow

@NotAA3

When you insert your own words like "a little" into the passages in order to make a case, you know you have no argument.

I didn't use parentheses, so I'm not incising it into the passage. I'm describing what actually happened, "There was no blood. Instead of pressing the attack, the apprentice stood his ground. Despite himself, he was as surprised as his former Master clearly was." After Starkiller gets his "realisation" he doesn't just cut through Vader, they still duel for a period of time. If Vader was significantly slower he would have been stomped, but he wasn't.

Correct: "Vader being forced on the back foot, being unable to disengage, and then being struck repeatedly before being telekinetically dominated isn't a good fight in any context."

Hold on, how can you talk about context when you're forgetting that they had a long and massive duel, then Starkiller gets what's seemingly tantamount to a Kenobian revelation, then still has to wear Vader down further, cut him deeply three times then blast him with a generator. You're describing the tail-end of the duel as if that's the only thing that happened. That's like me only showing the part after Qui-Gon is totally exhausted and is purely on the defensive against Maul, then arguing Maul stomped him.

Quote me where I've said Starkiller can ragdoll Vader in this discussion

You've said it all across our SS debate. Let's have a look at your opening position for example: "Darth Vader is one of the most powerful Force Wielders in the mythos, so ragdolling him is an incredibly impressive feat, definitely significantly beyond Plagueis." You didn't add the context for that in your opening post, which is that they had a massive duel beforehand + Starkiller got a combative amp.   You can't keep using words like "stomp" and "ragdoll".

Pertaining to this actual thread, wouldn't "stomp" be essentially synonymous with "ragdoll"? I don't know about you, but if you "stomp" someone in a lightsaber duel (aka blitz them) you can ragdoll them too. It's a point where you're exponentially more skilled and powerful than your opponent. This was not the case with Starkiller in TFU1.

@NotAA3

NotAA3 wrote:He defended against Palpatine's Lightning for 20-30 seconds (per the videogame), not "a few", and never got "fried" at any point - he was never overpowered by Palpatine and only died because he deliberately blew himself up (although, he would have lost eventually).

As I've said, in the novelization, Galen gets his defenses shredded instantly. The feat from there on is one of willpower and pain tolerance, not tutaminis. That lightning was meant for Kota, too, so it's far from the Emperor's full intensity. There is no wank for Galen to be taken from this that puts him near the Emperor's league.

Star Wars: The Force Unleashed novelization wrote:"You fool!" snarled the Emperor, sending another wave of Sith lightning into Kota's back. "He will never be yours."

Kota fell with his arms upraised, and the apprentice knew that it wasn't over yet. The moment of truth had arrived.

Without hesitation, he stepped between Kota and the Emperor, taking the full brunt of the Sith lightning into his own body.

The pain was incredible, searing every nerve back to its individual cells, skewering each of them on white-hot needles. He had never before felt anything like this. He wanted to recoil from the source, to curl into a ball and let unconsciousness take the pain away, but somehow he stayed standing, seeing the world through a crackling blue light, and even took a step toward the Emperor.

NotAA3 wrote:@Sith Archivist

He defended against Palpatine's lightning for only a few seconds before getting fried.

He defended against Palpatine's Lightning for 20-30 seconds (per the videogame), not "a few",

Too bad the game isn't canon. Only the novel and comic are.

and never got "fried" at any point

You sure?

- he was never overpowered by Palpatine and only died because he deliberately blew himself up (although, he would have lost eventually).

Well then the point still stands if even you are admitting his defeat was inevitable.

That's not enough to make him more powerful than Vader.

Why not? Jinn is more powerful, faster, and more skilled than Vader (per Lucas); yet he got decisively beaten by TPM Maul; who is way below TCW Maul; who got destroyed by Sidious with backup. That's way less impressive than defending against Sidious's Lightning.

Marek's tutaminis had nothing to do with speed. You don't have to be a speedster to intercept Palpatine's lightning. If we are taking that Lucas quote for granted here then Marek is locked under ANH Vader in terms of speed.

Also he didn't 'stomp' Vader at the end of TFU I, you are seriously overhyping Marek if you think that. It was a close fight

The novelization disagrees:

The Force Unleashed Novelization wrote:"I don't need to hate you in order to beat you," he gasped. "That's something I will teach you now."

"You can teach me nothing," Darth Vader's leaden voice intoned. One black glove clenched, and for a moment the apprentice's throat closed tight.

He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room.

For all his size and occasional clumsiness, the Dark Lord was sure on his feet. He landed upright and launched himself back into the fray.

"I don't hate you," the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. "I pity you." With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot. "You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you." A strip of Darth Vader's cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. "You are his creature just as I was yours - but you've never had the strength to rebel. That's why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I'll make sure you don't, either."

Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot.

"I will kill you," he said, "to set you free."

The lightsabers flashed again - and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound.

There was no blood. Instead of pressing the attack, the apprentice stood his ground. Despite himself, he was as surprised as his former Master clearly was.

For a moment, the only sounds were the twin humming of the lightsabers and the wheezing of Darth Vader’s respirator.

Then the Dark Lord laughed.

It was an awful sound, empty of humor and full of mockery. In it, the apprentice heard a decade and a half of torture and abuse.

Anger flared. He lunged forward. His former Master barely blocked the blow. A second scored a deep wound across his black-clad shoulder. A third stabbed deep into his thigh.

Darth Vader reeled backward, servos whining in his injured limbs and lightsaber shaking.

The apprentice gripped his lightsaber in both hands and held himself back. Anger was familiar and powerful; it also clouded his eyes when he most needed to see clearly.

Vader prepared for combat again. His power over the apprentice, however, was gone. His lightsaber went skittering and sparking across the floor, twisted out of his grip by telekinesis. The Force wrenched him into the air, as he had once lifted the apprentice's father, and a barrage of missiles struck at him with increasing strength. He raised his gloved hands to defend himself, but the battery continued until, with a crash, the apprentice ripped the energy field generator in the center of the room right out of the floor and hurled it at his former Master.

The generator exploded with greater force than he had expected, throwing him and everyone else to the floor. The transparisteel dome shattered. Debris rained everywhere. The sound of the explosion rang in his ears for an unnaturally long time afterward.

He was the first to his feet, striding across the rubble to where Darth Vader lay face-forward, gravely wounded and stripped of his armor in places. Flesh and machinery showed through the gaps. Finally, some real blood was flowing.

Correction: the novelisation agrees. You only showed the end of the fight.

and Vader only lost because 1. He wasn't going all out

Citation needed; the text clearly indicates otherwise:

Firstly it's obvious given the context. Marek is Vader's tool, he won't be trying to kill someone who has uses to him.
If you want quotes there are a few that imply Vader was not going all out.
"His Master had either held back, or he himself had capitulated."
"Then the Dark Lord laughed."

The Force Unleased Novelization wrote:"Lord Vader, deal with the boy. Properly, this time."

Palps ordering him to do that doesn't mean he actually did.

The Dark Lord was already moving. The red blade of his lightsaber flared into life, casting bloody shadows across the room. There was no discussion. He offered no threats. It was clear he intended only to complete what he had failed to finish on Corellia.

Vague quote as it is not exactly known what he aimed to do on Corellia.

---

and 2. Marek was very familiar with Vader's fighting style.

Correction: Marek thinks he's familiar with Vader's fighting style. Unfortunately for you, he's proven wrong the instant they start duelling:

The Force Unleashed Novelization wrote:He thought he was ready-and so the sheer severity of the opening blow took him by surprise.

That has nothing to with him being unfamiliar with his fighting style. All that happened is he was caught of guard with his strength.

[...]

The apprentice understood that, until this moment, they had never truly fought as equals. His Master had either held back, or he himself had capitulated. Now, for the first time, they would see each other's true potential.

[/quote]

Same point

But, if you want to play this game, Vader would likewise have this familiarity - he's duelled Starkiller as many times as Starkiller has duelled him - so it goes both ways, and neither combatant has a unique advantage.

Wrong. Vader has fought many people in his life time, Marek has not, hence he only focused on a few fighting styles.

--- --- ---

Also, given that you've completely ignored the Starkiller Clones feat, I'm assuming that's a concession? Great, Starkiller stomps Vader.

I never ignored Starkiller's feats. No SK doesn't stomp Vader, he's sub Maul.

--- --- ---

Same point again

??? My rebuttal directly addresses your reply that SK's exhaustion wasn't a massive factor, and points out that he was emotionally hindered during the ragdolling, too. It also brings up other relevant points like the duel in the Cloning Tower, etc.

Replying with "same point again" is just fucking lazy and does not count as a rebuttal (especially since your original point is entirely unsubstantiated). Try actually replying next time.

@Sith Archivist @Master Azronger @Meatpants

I'll get back to all of you this weekend, I've got multiple tests to study for this week, so I probably won't have time to reply at any point until then.

NotAA3 wrote:@Sith Archivist @Master Azronger @Meatpants

I'll get back to all of you this weekend, I've got multiple tests to study for this week, so I probably won't have time to reply at any point until then.

No rush

My mind has changed. Team 2 wins.

Kota can deal with anything Jacen or his superior Katarn can dish out. Starkiller can solo.