Did Malachor V amp Nihilus to perform his TK feat? - Answered

Hello everyone,
 
I am going to be talking about Nihilus’s TK feat (again) and going into more detail regarding the circumstances of this feat.

1. Nihilus performs TK feat pre-prime
 
To begin with, let’s get some facts about the situation of Nihilus before this TK feat. Firstly, Nihilus performed this TK feat before he even drained a single planet. How do we know? Consider the following quote:

"The Ravager was hauled from the gravity well at Malachor V by its new master. He used it to escape imprisonment on Malachor V."
 
―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords

This means that Nihilus was stuck on Malachor V since pretty much the end of the Mandalorian wars. Since he hasn’t left Malachor V before his TK feat, this means that he was able to perform this feat before he even became much stronger from draining planets. Draining planets alone would have made Nihilus much more powerful. How do we know? Consider the following:
 
(Caution: the last quote was directed towards Meetra Surik but would apply to Nihilus as well)
 
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In the meantime, Darth Nihilus led his Sith forces from his flagship, the Ravager, drawing more and more power from worlds that he blasted into ruin.
 
-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
 
 
"As Nihilus greedy consumes entire planets life energies, the dark side macerates him even faster."
 
―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide
 
 
"Nihilus powers grew so extreme that, for most beings, mere exposure to the Sith Lord would cause immediate and utterly mindless devotion."
 
―Star Wars Insider 88: Virtual Sith
 
 
“You, you are the darkness in which all life dies, my lord. All life, exists to feed your power, and my life, my life is yours.”
 
―Visas Marr (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)


"His power is great, and it comes from hunger. He is a wound in the Force, more presence than flesh, and in his wake life dies, sacrificing itself to his hunger."

―Visas Marr (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)


"Darth Nihilus is literally a destroyer of worlds, powered by an insatiable hunger that drives him to consume greater and greater populations.

―Power Beyond Belief: Using Ultra-Powerful Sith Lords in Saga Edition


"Perhaps he will grow strong enough to eradicate all life, merely with his presence."

―Visas Marr (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)


“There is no future in the empty galaxy he sees. And that is why he must be stopped; the breach must sealed, before his power grows beyond what even we can hope to stop. One cannot have power of that magnitude that her master possesses and still think and perceive the universe as we do, as most of us do.”

- Kreia, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords


"He's right. It's... all the deaths you've caused to get here. You feed on it, and you grow stronger. You're like Malachor... it's in you, it's what you are now."
 
- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
 
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So, clearly, Nihilus performed this TK feat before he even became a lot more powerful from draining planets. In fact, before this TK feat, the Ravager was in orbit of Malachor V. Consider the following:
 
The Ravager was used in the Mandalorian Wars; afterward, its broken hull remained in orbit around Malachor V.
 
-Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Guide
 
It is specifically stated (earlier quote) that Nihilus used the Ravager to escape Malachor V. This means that Nihilus had to have accessed the Ravager and used it to leave Malachor V. What does this mean? He must have had to pull the Ravager from the orbit of Malachor V towards him,then entered the ship and then left Malachor V on the Ravager whilst overcoming its gravity wells. Whilst this may first seem like a bit of a stretch, it lines up with all the evidence we know and is consistent.  Evidence suggests that Nihilus pulled the ship from the gravity well, used it to escape and that the ship was initially in orbit. This explanation is consistent with all that we know and lines them all up. Nihilus pulls the Ravager from orbit (evidence of orbit is now satisfied), then Nihilus leaves Malachor V aboard the Ravager (satisfies the evidence of him hauling the ship from the gravity well as he is on it and has to overcome the gravitational pull to leave) and finally the evidence of him escaping using the Ravager is satisfied (as he is abroad the ship when leaving the planet). 

Note: when Nihilus hauls the ship from the gravity wells it is not when he pulls it from orbit but rather when he escapes on it after getting it from orbit.

2. Malachor's Dark Side nexus amp scaling
 
Also let’s add some perspective about Malachor’s Dark Side nexus. Meetra Surik was able to defeat Traya, a powerful Force user in her own right, right in the middle of the Trayus academy where the Dark Side nexus energies would be most potent and concentrated.  This means that Meetra was hindered by the nexus at its peak level while Traya was amped by the nexus at its peak level. Despite this, Meetra still defeated Traya. Looping back, this was the same Meetra (arguably was a little more powerful against Traya in terms of base level) that was dominated by Nihilus on the Ravager by a mere gesture with not only Meetra, but her strike team as well. And this was a Telos starved Nihilus who was suffering right before Meetra’s fight.

"The Lord of Hunger doesn't seem to notice you until you get close, at which point he effortlessly stuns you with a wave of his hand."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Guide

"If there are no Jedi here, then my Lord cannot feed his hunger. He will destroy the planet, the station, he will cleanse it of life. Even if the people below are not Force Sensitive, the small amount he can feed on from the mass destruction of the station, and the life of the planet, will sustain him a while longer. And if there are no Jedi below, he will have no other choice."

― Tobin (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)

"The Master suffers... If he can not feed, then the hunger begins to consume him. The planet Telos... He may feed on something upon its surface to sustain himself a while longer.”

- Tobin (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords

"[Kreia] spoke of the Jedi academy here on Telos...and my Master was forced to come here."

- Tobin (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)

Note that Meetra here is not hindered by the powerful Dark side nexus of Malachor and Nihilus is not amped by such powerful nexus as was the case in Meetra's fight against Kreia. On top of all this, Meetra had 2 powerful companions, Visas and Mandalore. All this shows the much favorable conditions Meetra was in against her fight with Nihilus compared to Kreia. Despite all this, Nihilus was still considered too powerful for the team despite being Telos starved and severely weakened after he attempted to Drain Meetra. 

"He... is too powerful... he... I... cannot hold him for long..."

―Visas Marr (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)

Now you might be wondering why did I mention the above and how would it relate to Nihilus’s TK feat? Because many people claim that Nihilus was only able to accomplish this TK feat due to the very powerful Dark Side nexus amps of Malachor V. If the dark side nexus was so powerful that it was the reason that allowed Nihilus to perform this enormous TK feat, then this is also the same exact nexus that would have hindered Meetra and amped Kreia significantly (showing how powerful Meetra was to still beat Kreia) just like it would have amped Nihilus to the point that it allowed him to perform such TK feat. And the same Meetra, except with companions and not hindered this time, was dominated by Telos starved Nihilus by a gesture. If the nexus was so powerful that it allowed Nihilus to perform such feat, then imagine how much Meetra was hindered and how much Kreia was amped during their fight and yet Meetra was still the winner here. And now loop back to this same Meetra getting dominated by Nihilus despite not being hindered and having 2 powerful companions at her side this time. This all shows how powerful Nihilus must have been to perform his TK feat and that it was not accomplished mainly due to the amp. In either case, it shows just how much more powerful Nihilus became and grew after his TK feat. Also note that Nihilus was not in the Trayus academy when he did his TK feat and so was not amped by the most potent and concentrated energies of the nexus as in the case of Meetra’s hindering and Kreia’s amping. 

Let us add further perspective on the people claiming Nihilus’s TK feat is circumstantial and that he was only able to accomplish this through the nexus of Malachor. They are essentially claiming that the nexus was so unbelievably powerful that it allowed Nihilus to perform his TK feat. However, what they are not realizing are the indirect consequences of this claim because in that case Meetra would have been unbelievably hindered and Kreia would have been unbelievably amped by the nexus that was supposedly so powerful that it allowed the TK feat. In that case, it just goes to show how extremely powerful a severely weakened and Telos starved Nihilus must have been to dominate an unhindered Meetra (by this extremely powerful nexus) and her strike team. How? As has been discussed above, the same Meetra, except not hindered by this Malachor nexus, was entirely dominated by a Telos starved Nihilus whilst also having two rather powerful companions at her side. So, to re-iterate, a not hindered Meetra ,whilst having 2 companions, was dominated by a Telos starved Nihilus but the same Meetra, except vastly hindered, was able to defeat a vastly amped Kreia after going through Sith assassins and defeating Sion 3 times, whom are all vastly amped. Kreia is a powerful force user in her own right as she is able to effortlessly kill over 10 Sith assassins and was even able to practically annihilate 3 Jedi masters effortlessly in one go as well. And yet whilst vastly amped, lost to a vastly hindered Meetra who was in extremely unfavorable conditions. It is very important to note that all the ‘hinders’ for Meetra and all the ‘amps’ for Kreia discussed above are from the supposedly unbelievably powerful Malachor nexus that was supposedly so powerful that it allowed Nihilus to perform the TK feat. How hindered Meetra was and how amped Kreia was would be comparable to the scale of Nihilus’s TK feat. So, if Malachor was this unbelievably powerful nexus, as some people claim, then honestly it all goes to show just how extremely powerful a Telos starved and severely weakened Nihilus is to dominate a vastly unhindered Meetra (with companions this time) and whom whilst extremely hindered by this supposed nexus, defeated an extremely amped Kreia and after going through others before Kreia. This is not even prime Nihilus. And in that case, I find it entirely plausible for a prime Nihilus to have an extremely potent TK as his TK feat, especially when we know that he became vastly more powerful later on compared to his TK feat time.

Throughout the above, I have been assuming that Malachor was indeed this supposedly unbelievably powerful nexus. However, I find this quite absurd and not even justifiable at all. Why? Because I don’t think that if the nexus was so unbelievably powerful as it is claimed, would have allowed Meetra to win against Kreia with such extremely unfavorable odds. Imagine how hindered Meetra and how amped Kreia would be (to re-iterate) if this nexus was so absurdly strong to allow Nihilus to perform his enormous TK feat. I find it extremely implausible for Meetra to win in such conditions with this type of nexus. On top of all that, Meetra had to fight through many Sith Assassins and had to defeat Sion three times before getting to Kreia. Throughout all this, Meetra would have been significantly hindered by this unbelievably powerful nexus, and all the others would have been significantly amped. And all this was inside the Trayus academy itself where the nexus would be most potent. Kreia alone was a very powerful user as I mentioned previously. As such, I think it’s really absurd to claim that the nexus was as powerful as some people are claiming.

To put it simply, the more powerful you claim that Malachor’s dark side nexus was, the more impressive it would make a Telos-starved and severely weakened Nihilus be and further scales him up. And he would scale up a lot to be honest if we are claiming that this Nexus was so absurdly powerful. The less powerful you claim it to be, then the more of Nihilus’s TK feat will be attributed to his power and not the amp. So, whether you believe the nexus to be unbelievably powerful (as to allow Nihilus to perform his TK feat) or not, it all leads down and goes to show how extremely powerful Nihilus is and further justifies his TK potency. 

3. Further perspective on Nihilus's TK potency

To further show this, Nihilus was able to keep the Ravager together through his TK when it was being fired at by multiple turbo blasters during the battle of Telos. Not only that, but when Meetra and her strike team boarded the Ravager and placed protons bombs on the weakest points of the Ravager, they knew they had to face Nihilus first before detonating them because Nihilus would be able to overcome the bombs and keep the ship together with his TK. And, no, it could not have been his ‘bond’ that was keeping the ship together during these conditions. The ‘bond’ has been stated to be able to barely keep the ship together under normal conditions. The fact that the ship does not fall apart when attacked by those blasters or the fact that Meetra and her team knew they had to kill Nihilus first before detonating the bombs is a clear indication that it would be Nihilus keeping the Ravager together under those conditions through his TK. And, finally, to further show Nihilus’s TK potency, the Telos starved and severely weakened Nihilus is able to TK Meetra and her strike team across the whole bridge of the Ravager.

When Nihilus takes half-damage [ i.e after the weaknings], he roars, blasting the player and any companions back across the bridge with an effect similar to the Force Wave power. Nihilus lets the player fall, yet Visas still rotates. There is silence - Nihilus has suddenly realized that Visas has changed. Visas still lies suspended in the air. Nihilus turns to face the player, who should be getting to his feet. Nihilus roars, hurling Visas across the room. Close-up on Nihilus, his voice roaring as power emanates from him.

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords (Cut Content) 

Not just that, but despite Nihilus being amped by Malachor V, he still had to overcome the gravity wells, carry the 1200m cruiser (ignoring other fleet), move the 1200m cruiser (the engines were destroyed) and keep the cruiser's structure together. The gravity wells in their own right were very powerful and caused ships that came to close to Malachor V to crash and sink in. 

The storms of Malachor V are enough to draw down even the strongest of ships. Once on the surface, there is little chance of escape.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

As such, we have a case in which a vastly pre-prime Nihilus had to pull the Ravager from Malachor's orbit then carry the Ravager outside of Malachor whilst overcoming the extremely powerful gravity wells.

If you're having trouble with the font size, try switching to the BBCode format.

On topic, the evidence surrounding this feat is conflicting. The Prima Official Game Guide mentions the Ravager was already in orbit when Nihilus recommissioned it, making the reality of the situation ambiguous.



Contrarily, the lore is very clear and consistent on the topic of dark side nexuses: they do invariably provide a passive amplification to the user irrespective of whether such a boost is mentioned in the primary material or not. Appealing to the lack of direct evidence to conclude that Nihilus was not amped or was only minimally amped doesn't work.

Whilst Azronger is correct in that Darth Nihilus was amplified. This needn't be noted given how much power Nihilus gains after the fact.

@Azronger Thanks for your input.

Whilst the evidence (of the ship being in orbit) at first glance may seem conflicting with what we know, it’s actually consistent. Allow me to explain. It is specifically stated that Nihilus used the Ravager to escape Malachor V. This means that Nihilus had to have accessed the Ravager and used it to leave Malachor V. What does this mean? He must have had to pull the Ravager from the orbit of Malachor V towards him,then entered the ship and and then left Malachor V on the Ravager whilst overcoming its gravity wells. Whilst this may first seem like a bit of a stretch, it lines up with all the evidence we know and is consistent.  Evidence suggests that Nihilus pulled the ship from the gravity well, used it to escape and that the ship was initially in orbit. This explanation is consistent with all that we know and lines them all up. Nihilus pulls the Ravager from orbit (evidence of orbit is now satisfied), then Nihilus leaves Malachor V aboard the Ravager (satisfies the evidence of him hauling the ship from the gravity well as he is on it and has to overcome the gravitational pull to leave) and finally the evidence of him escaping using the Ravager is satisfied (as he is abroad the ship when leaving the planet). Note: when Nihilus hauls the ship from the gravity wells it is not when he pulls it from orbit but rather when he escapes on it after getting it from orbit.

 
As for the dark side nexuses topic, I was under the impression that it was the Trayus Academy that was mostly concentrated with dark side energies. Other parts of Malachor V probably have been affected as well but not on the same magnitude as the Trayus Academy. I wasn’t claiming that dark side nexuses don’t passively amplify dark users unless specifically stated, but rather that the magnitude amplifying Nihilus was insignificant as he was not within the Trayus Academy , which is where most of the concentrated dark side energy of Malachor V is in. Regardless, as @LadyKulvax has pointed out, this was all before Nihilus has even drained a single planet and as such he was significanty weaker at this time than at his prime. Nihilus became significantly more powerful later on from draining planets.

@lDarth Nihilusl That is a sound reconciliation I had not considered before regarding the Ravager. However, I remain unconvinced on the nexus angle. The Trayus Core being the focal point of the dark side on the planet does not mean the energies polluting the rest of its surface are insignificant. The Prima Guide outright states that the energies are strong enough to have eroded physical land formations and mutated the native creatures the world. This speaks of a nexus of ludicrous potency rarely encountered in the lore.



By the way, can you alter your username to remove those lines on the edges? They make tagging you next to impossible.

@Azronger  Thanks for those images. It seems like Malachor V was more potent than I had initially thought. The nexus appears to have a big impact throughout the planet and not just the academy. This does make it clear that Nihilus was amped by the nexus when pulling the Ravager from the gravity wells. Nonetheless, I still think it’s a very powerful and impressive feat when you take into account that he had to carry and move the 1200m ship whilst overcoming the enormous gravity wells of Malachor V and vastly before his prime. I have edited this thread to incorporate those changes.

I also removed those lines on my username to make the tagging easier lol.

EDIT: Added a new perspective of Malachor's Dark side nexus amp and specifically with respect to Nihilus and his TK feat

He wasn't amped.

The Merchant wrote:He wasn't amped.

What makes you think so though?

@Darth Nihilus Good job even though (like Azronger) I have some difficulty to understand why the nexus won't amped Nihilus

xolthol wrote:@Darth Nihilus Good job even though (like Azronger) I have some difficulty to understand why the nexus won't amped Nihilus

@xolthol

Oh it's not that Nihilus wouldn't be amped by the Nexus, but rather than it is not as incredibly huge as some people claim. And this is evident from Meetra's battle with Kreia. If Nihilus was so absurdly amped to perform his TK feat, then imagine how hindered Meetra would be and how amped Kreia would be especially since they fought in the middle of the Trayus Academy where it is most concentrated. And Meetra had to go through Sion 3 times and many Sith assassins beforehand and whom are all significantly amped by this 'TK feat' Nexus. The scale of the amping and hindering would be on the scale of Nihilus's TK feat. Just imagine how much that would have been. Because of that, I find it entirely implausible for Meetra to win under such huge conditions, especially since Kreia was a powerful user in her own right.

On top of that, I have also argued that even if people still want to claim that the Nexus was so absurdly powerful to allow the TK feat, then it actually scales Telos starved Nihilus up and makes him more powerful due to the fact that he dominated Meetra and her team with a mere gesture. And since this is the same Meetra that won an amped Kreia while hindered , by this supposedly absurdly powerful Nexus, but lost to a Telos starved Nihilus while not hindered , then it makes Nihilus more powerful. So the more powerful people claim the Nexus to be, the more powerful Meetra would be , to defeat Kreia, and thus the more powerful a Telos starved Nihilus would scale up. And he would scale up a lot to be honest if we are claiming this Nexus was so absurdly powerful.

EDIT: Divided into 3 sections for clarity

Master Azronger wrote:@lDarth Nihilusl That is a sound reconciliation I had not considered before regarding the Ravager. However, I remain unconvinced on the nexus angle. The Trayus Core being the focal point of the dark side on the planet does not mean the energies polluting the rest of its surface are insignificant. The Prima Guide outright states that the energies are strong enough to have eroded physical land formations and mutated the native creatures the world. This speaks of a nexus of ludicrous potency rarely encountered in the lore.



By the way, can you alter your username to remove those lines on the edges? They make tagging you next to impossible.

This seems to be like some sort of soft retcon. I remember it was established that Malachor V, aside the Trayus Academy, is a Wound in The Force where most of The Force's influence died.