Ahsoka vs Mauls

If it’s Legends, TPM Maul dismantles her.

You say you've never cited Filoni but below we have confirmation that is a lie given how you literally tried to use Filoni to back a stance of yours. The quote being:

"Filoni explicitly states vader is trying to kill ahsoka, there's no prior context."

we have pablo hiladgo, the head of star wars canon, telling us outright that Vader is trying to kill her in the rebels recon for that episode.

Though yes, Filoni also says it. And since you want to use Filoni's comments, he also says Anakin can beat Ahsoka, "because he taught her", knowledge Vader would benefit from. Finally while I didn't want to humor 'Ahsoka is a level four', if I'm being honest, your interpretation is asinine once we examine the surrounding context of the quote. First let's examine the sentence right before what you quoted.

Our guys are like level three, maybe they got to level four this season. What’s Vader

(...)

Given the part you quoted said "this next season after", we can safely assume 'this season' refers to season one. Given Ahsoka was nothing but a cameo at the end of season 1, Filoni saying Ahsoka "got to level four" wouldn't make much sense.

Furthermore, this part of the quote you cited makes little sense with your interpretation:

What Vader represents to me in Rebels is the ultimate manifestation of your fear, and of your inability to move forward.

The thing is the Rebels do move forward at the end of the season. So how does this happen? If Ahsoka is included in Filoni's statements, how did one of the 'heroes', who Filoni supposedly thinks couldn't move vader, forced vader to move?

Finally lets offer the segway provided for the excerpt you so kindly provided us:

Filoni stresses that fans shouldn't expect Vader to be chasing the rebels week in and week out.

But Ahsoka isn't even a regular character on the show. Why would Filoni need to qualify that vader wouldn't be chasing her week in and week out...

Oh right, because 'heroes' isn't referring to Ahsoka, who wasn't present in season 1, isn't beholden to 'you can't move forward', and Isn't a week in-week out regular.





And while we can argue our interpretations of this quote, what isn't disputable is this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpXNOz-hbgA


Ahsoka defeats two 'level fours' at the same time quite easily. 

And if you think that's just my subjective interpretation, here's Filoni comments on the matter:

"Ahsoka was never really in jeopardy, Ahsoka, in that fight"

Gee, it's almost like Ahsoka's a 'heavy hitter' whose 'immovable' by level four fodder. Hence why she doesn't fit any of the context clues Filoni offers us in the passage. 

You keep referencing how Luke lost balance once and use that as your only justification to shut down Luke's performance despite the fact that Luke managed to use a smoke nozzle on Vader despite his guard being up

My only justification?   Bud you're the one using the fight as a counter example. You're the one who needs to 'justify' things here. But you know what, I'll do your leg work for you. I'm going to do what you should have done, and offer a holistic analysis of the duel AND offer points of comparisons to Ahsoka's duel with Vader.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgyitSlMtMY
-> :58, as already noted, Luke is knocked on his ass two strikes here. It takes vader more than a minuite to start forcing ahsoka back. You'll also note that when Luke is down, Vader doesn't press his advantage. Compare this to the rebels duel where Vader gives Ahsoka zero time to recover. That's point 1 for Ahsoka.
-> :1:10 Let's note that at this point Luke has failed to land any sort of hits on Vader. Ahsoka landed a kick to the head and a push. Point 2 for ahsoka.
-> 1:36, And, that's  a wrap! Vader has a wide open chance to kill Luke if he desires. Unlike with ahsoka's duel against Maul, being disarmed has proved decisive. Vader was presented no chances to kill Ahsoka in Twlight of the Apprentince. That's point 3 for Ahsoka. I should give more than 1 point to ahsoka here since Luke literally loses here...but I'll be generous. 
-> 2:12, Luke is able to use a unique property of the environment to avoid being at vader's mercy a second time and is even able to surprise vader with this. By doing this Luke is able to achieve...
-> 2:19, A bladelock?  Lets compare this to Ahsoka who...checks notes... uses a surprise attack to slice his mask open.  That's point 4 for Ahsoka.
-> 2:24, Ooh, Vader literally training Luke in the darkside and "how to destroy him". I think it's safe to say Vader, having passed on killing him, having neglected to press any of his advantages, and now actively instructing him on how to get better has motivations beyond 'beating' his son in a duel. Point 5 for Ahsoka.
-> 2:45, I mean there's obvious context here but I'm feeling generous. Using his father's instructions, he drives vader back and lands a kick. Point 1 for Luke.
-> 3:50, A direct headshot!!! You know what, since Vader was able to land a push on Ahsoka, lets call it a tie. Yeah, the push didn't actually hurt her, but you know what, I'm feeling kind.
-> 3:51, That said, Vader passes up on a second chance to kill his son. Remember Ahsoka presented vader no opportunities to kill her. Point 5 for Ahsoka.
-> 4:01, And Vader lands two more hits on Luke. Both of which cause Luke noticeable pain. Out of fairness, I'll exclude the BFR(that's circumstantial), but regardless, that's another point for Ahsoka(6). I should be giving two but, oh well.
The fight continues:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv20ZoBcdO8
-> 0:26, first let's note that Vader, who to this point has passed up on two killing blows to his son gives Luke ample time to rest and recover between various bouts of fighting. Ahsoka is not afforded the same luxury fighting non-stop, getting a brief respite after falling off a cliff, and then being pressed non-stop for an additional 30 seconds. Point 7 for Ahsoka.
-> 0:26 And now, for the first time in the fight we get Vader trying to drive Luke back and.... he steadily cedes ground. Note that Ahsoka, even in the stretch you cherrypicked as proof she was being dominated was able to stonewall vader, not ceding ground for a good 20 seconds. Point 8 for Ahsoka.
-> 0:47 And now Luke falls over a second time giving us a third instance where Vader passes up on a killing blow. Luke has effectively lost this fight three times. Ahsoka, never gives Vader the opportunity to kill her. Point 9 for Ahsoka.
-> 1:00 Finally! Having gotten his ass kicked three seperate times, Luke's finally shown us he can contend!!!! Vader doesn't even budge, oy the contention!!!! Point 2 for Luke.
-> 1:05 And Luke loses his arm. This is now the 4th time Vader's kicked his ass.  Point 10 for Ahsoka.

Final tally, Ahsoka 10, Luke 2.

Totally comparable. 

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_super/11113/111137054/4253755-forcechokeobi-wan.jpg

Sith hunters isn't canon.   So much for your narrative.  

None of maul's remaining showings of 'superiority' over Kenobi trump this:

https://youtu.be/rgyitSlMtMY?t=57

Try rewatching the fight and note the little ground Kenobi gains against Maul.

Try reading:

Kenobi doesn't press the advantage because he's also fighting oppress

Kenobi directs his attention to Maul for about 3 seconds. In those 3 seconds he immediately concedes ground. Kenobi directs his attention at maul for a few second again, and Maul gets sent flying backwards. Kenobi does it a third time, and Maul gets kicked in the head.


Maul is not regaining ground by virtue of his own skill. He's regaining ground because Kenobi is fighting a 2 v1. This doesn't change that when Kenobi, a defensive fighter, directs his attention to Maul, Maul either gives up ground, or is made to regret standing in Kenobi's way.

Ben and Sidious are tier 6, Vader is a tier 4

Latham2000 wrote:Ben and Sidious are tier 6, Vader is a tier 4 :>

Ben doesn't need clones to keep kicking. Sids is tier 5 at best.

freethedevil wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:Ben and Sidious are tier 6, Vader is a tier 4 :>

Ben doesn't need clones to keep kicking. Sids is tier 5 at best.

I wasn't joking



It's an ancient tier system though.

Wait who's the other 6? Kenobi?

TheNuisanceBird wrote:Wait who's the other 6? Kenobi?

Yes. Ben was a 6 in ANH whilst he was alive, but not whilst he was a Force Ghost.

@freethedevil

You may have corrected yourself and shifted from Filoni to Hidalgo in relation to the quote (which we still haven't seen yet by the way) but you're still the one who initially bought us on this Filoni train so going against me for using Filoni quotes is quite hypocritical.

Let's go over the Filoni quotes and where your interpretation doesn't stack up. I've included the full quotes because, in a certain example, you've chosen to omit details to benefit your argument:


I don’t think our Rebels are a match for him, on any level. Our guys are like level three, maybe they got to level four this season. What’s Vader, like level 80?

(...)

So it’s a challenge to write believable scenes, mainly from our heroes’ side, that you believe they could have any success in this next season because there are some very heavy hitters that have been brought in to deal with them.

-- http://screenrant.com/star-wars-rebels-season-2-darth-vader-ahsoka/

To break this down simply:

sentence 1- establishes the rebels as a whole aren't a match for Vader. At least in a fighting capacity
sentence 2- offers tiers for "our guys" which, logically speaking, would refer to Ezra/Kanan given the mention of season progression as you noted

So this quote serves to establish no one can currently match Vader and to create a rough tier system where he places Vader, Ezra and Kanan. While Ahsoka doesn't fit into tier 3 or 4 (and I don't recall stating she was here in the first place) she most certainly fits into the overall theme of Vader's vast superiority. 

What Vader represents to me in Rebels is the ultimate manifestation of your fear, and of your inability to move forward. They are not going to be able to defeat Darth Vader. This is an immovable object. The easiest way to explain it is, our heroes are like level five characters and Vader’s level 50. [Laughs] It’s not going to take much for him to do them in.

-- http://www.starwars.com/news/interview-dave-filoni-on-star-wars-rebels-part-3

I can't believe I need to explain this but the "inability to move forward" in this quote is not in a literal sense. He is not saying that your physical progression is frozen upon Vader arrival. He is saying that Vader is an obstacle that you cannot defeat. 

ESB/Rebels counters:


The fight breakdown:

:58- Your attempt to make a point of Vader not pressing Luke at this opportunity is indirectly mirrored by the fact that Vader never pressed Ahsoka at all given we have confirmation via earlier in the season where Vader wanted her alive and we also have the Filoni quote. Surely if Vader was pressing Ahsoka at any point, he would swiftly win given the vast disparity between them. So while this certainly isn't a point in Luke's favour, it's not as if Ahsoka's contention is genuine to begin with.
1:10- so your point system is quite generous it seems. Ahsoka's kick didn't do any damage whatsoever and it's very likely Vader knew that thus why he didn't go for any sort of move to protect from the attack
1:36- I'd say Vader did have chances to kill Ahsoka. For example, when he ragdolled her. He could have easily pursued but simply chose not to given one of his primary motives for being there at the time. And, I'd hate to sound like a broken record, but when there's a confirmed power difference as severe as the one between Vader and Ahsoka, it's not as if Vader would be struggling for kill opportunities if he wanted to. As we saw in season 4, Ahsoka was unable to maintain a defence and Ahsoka essentially had to combine a cheapshot with a miraculous save from Ezra.
2:12- the element at play may have been unique but the key point to note here is how Luke was able to move fast enough to bypass Vader's defences which still would have been in play even at that stage
2:19- let's not pretend that Ahsoka slicing Vader's mask took any skill. Vader's focus was entirely elsewhere. It's not as if Ahsoka could do anything like that during the duel
2:24- don't really see how you justify a point for Ahsoka here. Vader coaching Luke into releasing his power would only be of benefit to Luke. Though in terms of how it affected the duel, it didn't really make a serious impact so realistically, no points handed out here
2:45- That advantage gained and Vader's speech aren't really linked but you gave Luke the point here so we can move on
3:50- given that one casual push managed to take ahsoka out of the fight and away from Vader for the time he wanted, this doesn't exactly favour Ahsoka. Vader put in the exact force he needed to and got the exact result he desired. What's also interesting to note is how Vader relies on throwing objects and brief spars rather than using the same move on Luke than he did on ahsoka
3:51- the chance to press Luke was very minor considering that Luke still had his footing for the most part and his blade was still ready to defend. Vader simply chose to mount another attack via the force given how successful that move was thus far
4:01- Considering Ahsoka wasn't able to defend from Vader's force attacks either, we can't just presume she would be able to avoid the damage that Luke took. Especially given the confined space which is why Vader moved to that section
0:47- given Vader had the capability to ragdoll Ahsoka, his opportunities to kill could have been numerous if he chose to push the fight and actually go all out
1:00- at least Luke could actually land a blow on Vader while Ahsoka could only do it when he was totally distracted

So, in both fights, we have Vader fighting someone where he is not going all out and both of his opponents can perform actions of note within that specific context. However, Luke can actually land blows and has shown that he isn't within ragdoll range. Luke is undeniably inferior to Vader but not as inferior to Vader as Ahsoka is. Her force shields are weaker as seen by the difference in Vader's force usage approaches and Filoni's evidence is damning. 

Other counters:

How is Sith hunters not canon? Given the release date and that it is an extension of TCW, I fail to see the logic here. Unless, you have a source to justify this point. If you do, then please share. 

Let's break down the Florrum fight just to display how Kenobi is inferior:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE_CVWMWK74

1:02- Kenobi concedes the ground they are fighting on
1:29- kenobi is forced to shift position again
1:55- while kenobi lands a kick here, note that Maul was not damaged and in terms of positioning, wasn't really affected given his defence was intact 
3:37- kenobi gives a kick that mirrors what occured at 1:55 with similar distance and impact towards the fight
4:28- kenobi gets ragdolled
4:47- kenobi gets ragdolled again

Given that Maul can ragdoll Kenobi, I can't really see why he couldn't ragdoll Ahsoka. Unless you intend to argue Ahsoka>Kenobi. Another key point in the fight that should be noted:

''The two Sith maneuvered to pin Obi-Wan against the wall--but there was so little room in the corridor that they got in each other's way.'' 
Source: The Clone Wars - Shadow Conspiracy (2013)

 So while it was a 2v1, it's not as if Maul and Savage were free to press any sort of advantage. 

As for your arguments concerning ground gained and lost, after examining the fight, you can see how Kenobi lost ground on multiple occasions while Maul was only shifted to the point where Kenobi could get breathing room.

Rebels Maul, post prime Maul is confirmed superior to Rebels Ahsoka, who is prime. SoD Maul dismantles both ROTS and Rebels Mary Stu at the same time.