Re: Darth Nihilus vs. Mace Windu

June 12th 2019, 11:11 am

Jake wrote:Having drained force reserves and being physically/mentally fatigued are completely different things. Force wielders can push aside the latter, and have done so frequently. Any fatigue experienced by Mace beforehand would be cancelled out while fully channeling Sheev’s dark side energies.

Anyone who truly thinks Mace can take Sidious while ‘tired’ is an absolute buffoon.

Instead of insulting us, why not try asking us to clarify what we mean? I for one am not saying tired Mace = Sidious. I was drawing attention to Mace's existing weariness - on top of his exhaustion after defeating Sidious in sabers - as a further reason for why he was massively struggling to hold off the lightning despite being a peer of Sheev's even with the aforementioned factors.

See? Asking people to explain is a lot more productive than insulting them.

June 12th 2019, 11:31 am

Why would Mace's fatigue contribute to his exhaustion after defeating Sidious? Oh no my dear, are you confusing force exhaustion with mental and physical fatigue, immediately after I made a post clarifying the difference between the two? That snark doesn't look so good for you right now. Kenobi for example, demonstrates that force wielders can immediately erase physical fatigue upon augmenting themselves;

If so, and the gleaming monstrosity had a single opportunity, it would slay the Nautolan. Obi-Wan's hand crept toward his lightsaber, the weight of thirty-six grueling flight hours banished from his limbs.

-- The Cestus Deception

Then we have Anakin Skywalker in 'Revenge of the Sith' as well as during the Battle of Jabiim, and Obi-Wan Kenobi during the events of 'Obsession' who can both push aside extreme mental fatigue (having not slept in weeks-months) and operate in combat with the same efficiency. Each Jedi are in a worse state than Mace going into his fight with Sidious, and both perform just fine.

At the commencement of the fight, Mace's fatigue is likely mixture of mental and physical, but at the end, the exhaustion is force-specific. These are completely different things. Find some new talking points.

June 12th 2019, 11:39 am

Why would Mace's fatigue contribute to his exhaustion after defeating Sidious? Oh no my dear, are you confusing force exhaustion with mental and physical fatigue, immediately after I made a post clarifying the difference between the two? That snark doesn't look so good for you right now. Kenobi for example, demonstrates that force wielders can immediately erase physical fatigue upon augmenting themselves;

If so, and the gleaming monstrosity had a single opportunity, it would slay the Nautolan. Obi-Wan's hand crept toward his lightsaber, the weight of thirty-six grueling flight hours banished from his limbs.

-- The Cestus Deception

You have read the novel, right? Mace is specifically stated to have no strength left:

Now Anakin was at Mace's shoulder. Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

Palpatine's eyes glowed with power, casting a yellow glare that burned back the rain from around them. "He is a traitor, Anakin. Destroy him."

"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny."

You might have missed this while you were trying to be witty - which, by the way, you suck at - but Mace's Force reserves were almost completely drained. He was losing the lightning battle because he was running off dregs instead of a replenished core like the now enraged Sidious was.

Then we have Anakin Skywalker in 'Revenge of the Sith' as well as during the Battle of Jabiim, and Obi-Wan Kenobi during the events of 'Obsession' who can both push aside extreme mental fatigue (having not slept in weeks-months) and operate in combat with the same efficiency. Each Jedi are in a worse state than Mace going into his fight with Sidious, and both perform just fine.

Which is completely reliant on them still having Force reserves, which you would know if you'd bothered to read that confrontation properly. Pretty big difference between their confrontation and Mace spending his while defeating the most powerful Sith lord in history (who was also nearly exhausted by the exchange but was capable of pooling his power due to his anger and fury at Mace's taunting before you bring that up).

Find some new talking points.

I don't need to. You failed to debunk them.

June 12th 2019, 11:42 am

Mace didn't have strength left to fight against his own blade because Sidious drained his reserves by shooting Lightning at him. There's no proof this was because of any prior exhaustion...

June 12th 2019, 11:48 am

I'd say the fact that Sidious (Mace's peer/superior) was drained by their saber fight before he became enraged is enough proof that Mace would have been exhausted.

June 12th 2019, 11:56 am

I’ll have to respond quickly on mobile here.

Again, you’re not getting it. Why is Mace exhausted? Is this because he didn’t get 10 minutes of rest at the start of the fight, or did Sidious simply smack the reserves out of him? Windu has no reserves left, and Sidious is completely fine as per the junior novel, establishing the exhaustion seen in the moments before the lightning blast was a ruse.

So did two seconds of Sidious’ lightning drain Mace completely, or was it the lightsaber duel? Either way Sheev is okay and Mace is exhausted - which has everything to do with his force strength/reserves, not some pre-existing mental and physical fatigue.

My wits are not the problem here.

June 12th 2019, 12:09 pm

The Cosmic Force wrote:Mace didn't have strength left to fight against his own blade because Sidious drained his reserves by shooting Lightning at him. There's no proof this was because of any prior exhaustion...

I still marvel at how this quote is so badly misinterpreted lmfao.

Mace didn't have the strength to fight against his own blade, not because he had no strength left, but because the blade was literally being bent towards his face. Mace has to use all of his energy/strength to hold the blade against Sidious's lightning, hence he has no energy left to deal with the blade being bent towards his face. Not because his reserves were drained or anything. He is still able to hold the handle of the blade just okay against Palpatine's lightning, but obviously he has to devote every resource to performing that. Leaving him no extra reserves to protect himself against the blade being bent or inclined to his face

Like, I thought this is obvious so it is not encouraging to see this being thrown repeatedly

June 12th 2019, 12:15 pm

LOTL is right tbh.

June 12th 2019, 12:31 pm

LOTL wrote:

The Cosmic Force wrote:Mace didn't have strength left to fight against his own blade because Sidious drained his reserves by shooting Lightning at him. There's no proof this was because of any prior exhaustion...

I still marvel at how this quote is so badly misinterpreted lmfao.

Mace didn't have the strength to fight against his own blade, not because he had no strength left, but because the blade was literally being bent towards his face. Mace has to use all of his energy/strength to hold the blade against Sidious's lightning, hence he has no energy left to deal with the blade being bent towards his face. Not because his reserves were drained or anything. He is still able to hold the handle of the blade just okay against Palpatine's lightning, but obviously he has to devote every resource to performing that. Leaving him no extra reserves to protect himself against the blade being bent or inclined to his face

Like, I thought this is obvious so it is not encouraging to see this being thrown repeatedly

Makes sense. I just prefer not to because the idea of a blade being bent across the emitter seems a bit far-fetched to me. Then again, if it's meant literally that's actually a very good feat for Sheev.

June 12th 2019, 1:09 pm

BreakofDawn wrote:

MP wrote:IIRC, Mace was exhausted after the disarm, whereas Sheev is stated to not be tired at all in the junior novel. Thoughts?

Do you have a quote for that? Mace was already stated to be tired before the duel anyway:

"I will personally deliver the news of Grievous's death." Mace flexed his hands. "It will be up to the Chancellor to cede his emergency powers back over to the Senate."
"Forget not the existence of Sidious. Anticipate your action, he may. Masters will be necessary, if the Lord of the Sith you must face."
"I have chosen four of our best. Master Tiin, Master Kolar, and Master Fisto are all here, in the Temple. They are preparing already."

"What about Skywalker? The chosen one."
"Too much of a risk," Mace replied. "I am the fourth."
With a slow purse of the lips and an even slower nod, Yoda said, "On watch you have been too long, my Padawan. Rest you must."
"I will, Master. When the Republic is safe once more." Mace straightened. "We are waiting only for your vote."

-

"It may be. And it may not be. We can only do what we can do, Mace. A very, very wise Jedi once said to me, We don't have to win. All we have to do is fight."
Some of the lines erased themselves from the Koran Master's face then, and when he met Obi-Wan's eye there was a quirk at the corner of his mouth that might someday develop into a smile-a tired, sad smile, but a smile nonetheless.

As far as I recall, Sidious appeared tired in the senior novel but his rage and fury at Mace's mockery allowed him to recover much of his strength, enough to unleash his full power.

Do you think this is referring to literal tiredness, or do you think it refers to tiredness from the war?

For example in that first quote, Yoda tells him to stop being so on guard because he's distrusting of a fellow Jedi - the Chosen One. Mace's retort is that he will rest when the Republic is safe. He's telling him to stop being so uptight and relax a little.

As for your second quote, same thing.

That may SOMEDAY develop into a tired smile

If we're going to take these literally, then we should take them literally. He's tired now, but someday down the line his smile will also be tired too. Do we assume he also gets no rest in this possible future too, or do we assume the war has drained him emotionally?

These are not the quotes of things we can literally use to point out that Mace has been on a 72 Crack-binge. Everything about his tiredness can be attributed to the 3 year war that has been hell on every Jedi emotionally. Merely telling him to rest, or that he has a tired smile isn't enough proof to tell us he is actually physically drained. It's not enough proof for us to state he hasn't slept in days. We need explicit confirmation that Mace "being tired" was on a physical level here, and directly impacted his physicality.

If you do anything long enough, even in real life, you will grow emotional fatigue at that thing. Even something as simple as a tour for a music group will usually end in a fatigue simple naps and perfect sleeping schedules won't cure. Work for 2 weeks in a row, etc. Now imagine being at war for 3 years and watching some of your closest friends die or turn their backs on you? That will drain you; and not physically I might add, but emotionally. It will age you and you won't be able to cover it up with a half smile.

Going back to literal definitions, are we to believe that Mace Windu having a nap would be welcoming and trusting of Anakin Skywalker? Or do we assume Mace Windu lowering his guard would be more welcoming of using the Chosen One instead of benching him?

June 12th 2019, 1:42 pm

LOTL wrote:

The Cosmic Force wrote:Mace didn't have strength left to fight against his own blade because Sidious drained his reserves by shooting Lightning at him. There's no proof this was because of any prior exhaustion...

I still marvel at how this quote is so badly misinterpreted lmfao.

Mace didn't have the strength to fight against his own blade, not because he had no strength left, but because the blade was literally being bent towards his face. Mace has to use all of his energy/strength to hold the blade against Sidious's lightning, hence he has no energy left to deal with the blade being bent towards his face. Not because his reserves were drained or anything. He is still able to hold the handle of the blade just okay against Palpatine's lightning, but obviously he has to devote every resource to performing that. Leaving him no extra reserves to protect himself against the blade being bent or inclined to his face

Like, I thought this is obvious so it is not encouraging to see this being thrown repeatedly

Yeah, I remember now. Was writing another response and kinda forgot the context of the passage. All I saw that was posted was the single line which said he had no strength left.

June 12th 2019, 7:46 pm

Kinda like me saying Qui-Gon and Kenobi weren’t at full strength for their fight on Naboo because they’d been fighting droids earlier.

June 13th 2019, 1:02 am

BreakofDawn wrote:@slayne

It does when he was caught off guard, distracted and facing a different direction when Sidious was openly trying to knock Mace out of the window and kill him. Instead, even with all of these factors he redirected it to such an extent that he overcame the sheer power of it enough to alter its path. That's incredibly impressive.

It's impressive, but I still don't see how that's enough to put him shoulder-to-shoulder with Sheev. I'll venture to say that slightly altering your midair trajectory takes only a small fraction of the power put into the original blast, and I don't think that alone is enough to accurately gauge Mace's standing, even with his momentary distraction.

It also states deflecting the lightning quickly became beyond Vaapad, and even in an exhausted, poor defensive position and having a split second to react Mace was still capable of holding it off.

"Beyond Vaapad" means that the form by itself wouldn't be enough to handle the entirety of Sidious' assault for much longer, as opposed to the technique up-and-failing on him then and there. Vaapad is still very much being utilized with great effectiveness here; Mace's ability to use it is just being pushed to the very limits.

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204

Fair, but I don't think that's binding.

June 13th 2019, 1:35 am

@Jake @BreakofDawn

Let's all take a chill pill and unwind a bit.

June 13th 2019, 1:36 am

LadyKulvax wrote:The Ones are entirely less complicated. Their position is indisputable.

Show me a quote that isn't one of the following:

1.In-universe.
2.Fallible source.
3.Character perspective.
4.Is only relevant to G-canon or T-canon.

Then explain why I should take that as indisputable gospel when Leland Chee doesn't consider them to be an absolute Canon fact:

Leland Chee wrote:Dave111283(Darth Sexy): Being a huge Marka Ragnos fan, I just wanted to know where he ranks among the most powerful sith lords ever. The way he was always described made me think that he was the most powerful Sith Lord ever until sources came up with Sidious being the most powerful. Can you shed some light on this please?

Captain Yossarian: I don't know for sure but I would imagine that there are no hard and fast lists about which Sith are the most powerful. "Most Powerful" would have lots of different variables to take into account. So it may be best to say that he was simply amongst the most powerful Sith along with Sidious and whoever else there may be. It you definitively say that one Sith was the most powerful then by definition any others that you create in the EU must be inferior so I doubt the continuity people make such absolutes about the powerfulness of the characters.

Tasty Taste (Leland Chee): Agreed, us continuity people don't deal in absolutes. Only Sith deal in absolutes. With that said, we'll often need to come up with stats or rankings for gameplay purposes. These are for gameplay purposes only. Stunt coordinator Nick Gillard had his own lightsaber ranking, but even the use of this ranking system is limited because it was only the major characters from the prequel films that he ranked. We never expanded on that ranking system.

Link(down): http://forums.starwars.com/thread.j...&start=1200

Now whilst I don't dismiss sources claiming as such, I don't see a reason to take them as any more relevant than actual feats comparisons nor do they any longer have any form of retcon authority over different sources claiming that others are stronger or are peers.

In an actual feats comparison, Darth Nihilus has a better telekinesis feat by a mile than Darth Sidious has as of Revenge of the Sith prior to ever draining planets.

Lesser known feats of Darth Nihilus is having galaxy-scale feeding, willing a ship to remain intact regardless of the severity of the structural integrity, being capable of destroying Citadel Station, encroaching upon becoming solar system tier at the height of his power.

Then there's the fact that in terms of feats Nihilus blows Galen Marek clean out of the water given his major hunger growth after leaving Malachor V. Yet TFU Sheev was in pain during his 'desperate' battle with Marek.

I give Sheev relative parity and possible superiority as of ROTJ.

June 13th 2019, 1:39 am

slayne wrote:

Azronger wrote:However, I'd say base Mace could still compete with Sidious.

How's that?

It's mainly his accolades: being an 8 bordering on 9, or an outright 9 per some sources; being up there with Yoda etc.

Also, @BreakofDawn, I don't think the Lucas quote holds because it doesn't give any context. It could very well be the case Mace can compete with Sidious because of Vaapad, which is a permanent part of his arsenal.

June 13th 2019, 3:41 am

Considering Lucas line edited the RotS novel, I think it’s fair to say that Lucas’ quote fits into the context of Vaapad allowing Windu to contend with the emperor. And as @Azronger said, Vaapad is part of Windu’s arsenal, unless you posit that his ability to use it against the emperor was boosted circumstantially. Depends on your interpretation.

June 13th 2019, 6:48 am

MP wrote:Considering Lucas line edited the RotS novel, I think it’s fair to say that Lucas’ quote fits into the context of Vaapad allowing Windu to contend with the emperor. And as @Azronger said, Vaapad is part of Windu’s arsenal, unless you posit that his ability to use it against the emperor was boosted circumstantially. Depends on your interpretation.

Yeah, and even if Lucas hadn't overseen and edited the novel, his comments must still be evaluated within the context of the greater mythos as this is a Legends discussion.

June 13th 2019, 6:52 am

Of course, I was just explaining how Lucas’ quote can be contextualised with the EU.

June 25th 2019, 6:51 am

Windu has already proven himself against a far superior Sith Lord.

June 25th 2019, 2:27 pm

Sidious most certainly isn't far superior to Nihilus.

June 25th 2019, 2:28 pm

Nihilus remains an enigma who can't be properly gauged. I do think his ability is very specific to him. But on the other hand, his TK feat is absolutely insane.

June 28th 2019, 7:05 am

Krayt Dies wrote:Sidious most certainly isn't far superior to Nihilus.

I agree that it is hard to place Nihilus in general, as others have said. However, I'd say it is even harder to place him above names like Plagueis, Yoda, Vitiate, which is where you have to be placed in order to not be significantly below Sidious. So, do tell us how Sidious isn't far superior.

June 28th 2019, 9:25 am

I mean I don't have a hard time placing Nihilus on par with Vitiate, Yoda, Plagueis and Sidious, etc because his feats are honestly far greater than any of theirs and the only place he really falls in is his IU position (e.g. being implied to be below some of the ancients, etc).

November 30th 2019, 4:08 pm

Mace, with relative ease