DE Luke and Caedus vs Yoda and Dooku

Team 1 destroys

Each on team 1 is a match for the one on two. I'll tentatively say 2, because Caedus has esoteric bullshit.

IG wrote:Each on team 1 is a match for the one on two. I'll tentatively say 2, because Caedus has esoteric bullshit.

Yoda is definitely not a match for Luke:

Filled with Dark Side power, the reborn Emperor engages Luke in a ferocious lightsaber duel -- and wins. Triumphant over his greatest adversary, the young Emperor vows to find Leia -- and the Holocron -- and crush the Rebellion once and for all!

He is triumphant over his greatest adversary. This quote is not time-specific and applies to Yoda. This effectively puts Luke above the Yoda, and this is only Mid-DE, so he obviously grows immensely from here on out, until the end of DE.

EmperorCaedus wrote:

IG wrote:Each on team 1 is a match for the one on two. I'll tentatively say 2, because Caedus has esoteric bullshit.

Yoda is definitely not a match for Luke:

Filled with Dark Side power, the reborn Emperor engages Luke in a ferocious lightsaber duel -- and wins. Triumphant over his greatest adversary, the young Emperor vows to find Leia -- and the Holocron -- and crush the Rebellion once and for all!

He is triumphant over his greatest adversary. This quote is not time-specific and applies to Yoda. This effectively puts Luke above the Yoda, and this is only Mid-DE, so he obviously grows immensely from here on out, until the end of DE.

Yoda's vastly greater experience plus skill makes him a better match for Luke here.

@IG: Based on?

Even if that were the case, being the Emperor's "greatest adversary" means that he is > Yoda no matter how you slice it. Yoda's alleged "greater experience and skills" still don't mitigate the advantage Luke has.

Team 2. Yoda beats Luke, Dooku beats Caedus.

EmperorCaedus wrote:@IG: Based on?

Even if that were the case, being the Emperor's "greatest adversary" means that he is > Yoda no matter how you slice it. Yoda's alleged "greater experience and skills" still don't compare to Luke.

I mean, greatest adversary can refer to a lot, for example Luke trying to restart the Jedi Order (becoming a mega-threat) is still something that'd apply. We can't just say "hurr durr quote means power and combat skill" and be done with it.

@IG: Um, the quote is specifically referring to a "ferocious lightsaber duel" and Sidious "wins" the duel "triumphant over his greatest adversary". Don't spew political power BS when you know it specifically refers to a lightsaber duel lmao

@BoD: Why does Dooku beat Caedus?

OT-Team 1.

EmperorCaedus wrote:@IG: Um, the quote is specifically referring to a "ferocious lightsaber duel" and Sidious "wins" the duel "triumphant over his greatest adversary". Don't spew political power BS when you know it specifically refers to a lightsaber duel lmao

It's not political power. Plus also we know that the Yoda v Sidious duel didn't exist yet, so it's plausible given methodology (mine included) that the quote doesn't encompass Yoda v Sidious, as nobody knew Yoda had fought Sidious from an OOU standpoint either. Refer to "Shedding Limitations"

@IG: Yes I've read "Shedding Limitations" and it does not apply. Ant argues:

Still, why do we assume that an out-of-universe statement is bound by the in-universe chronology (i.e. 4 ABY vs 19 BBY)? Why can't out-of-universe statements instead be bound by the out-of-universe chronology (i.e. 1983 vs 2005)?

So, "Shedding Limitations" would only work if the quote in question is OOU, which then it can be bound by OOU chronology according to Shedding Limitations. But since the quote in question is IU, bounding it to OOU chronology would not work, since Shedding Limitations advocates that OOU statements should be bound to OOU chronology, not IU statements to be bound by OOU chronology. 

Now back to the quote in question, since it is IU, it should be bound to IU chronology accordingly. And this is actually what "Shedding Limitations" implies should be the case. OOU goes with OOU and IU goes with IU, with a cute little bow on top. 

So yea, that quote definitely applies to Yoda v Sidious, and Mace v Sidious, etc. Even under the Shedding Limitations methodology.

EmperorCaedus wrote:@IG: Yes I've read "Shedding Limitations" and it does not apply. Ant argues:

Still, why do we assume that an out-of-universe statement is bound by the in-universe chronology (i.e. 4 ABY vs 19 BBY)? Why can't out-of-universe statements instead be bound by the out-of-universe chronology (i.e. 1983 vs 2005)?

So, "Shedding Limitations" would only work if the quote in question is OOU, which then it can be bound by OOU chronology according to Shedding Limitations. But since the quote in question is IU, bounding it to OOU chronology would not work, since Shedding Limitations advocates that OOU statements should be bound to OOU chronology, not IU statements to be bound by OOU chronology. 

Now back to the quote in question, since it is IU, it should be bound to IU chronology accordingly. And this is actually what "Shedding Limitations" implies should be the case. OOU goes with OOU and IU goes with IU, with a cute little bow on top. 

So yea, that quote definitely applies to Yoda v Sidious, and Mace v Sidious, etc. Even under the Shedding Limitations methodology.

The quote is IU? I was under the impression it was OOU, as the general feel is OOU. My mistake then. Though it has to be written from Sidious' POV to be valid, should it be IU. Though the idea is that the quote is referring to Luke as an adversary irrespective of the duel, so Luke's restarting the Order, and/or destroying the previous empire is significant.

Team 2 obviously wins. Dooku wrecks Caedus while Yoda is fighting Luke. Then, Dooku and Yoda defeat Luke.

Just make a sub category of the forum called IG vs EC (battle of the kiddos)

Team 1 stomps

Team 1 every time. Caedus can hold off Dooku long enough for Luke to beat Yoda and assist him.

ScionOfSkywalker77 wrote:@BoD: Why does Dooku beat Caedus?

I don't appreciate being ignored when requesting reasons darling.

:>

Sorry, I disabled notifications last week so I didn't see this.

Dooku is more skilled as a swordsman and Caedus doesn't have the raw physical strength of someone like Zonakin necessary to overpower him. Likewise, he doesn't possess quite the level of power of someone like Zonakin or the ROTS titans to decisively beat him, and frankly I'm not entirely sure he has much greater power than someone like AOTC Yoda (albeit he'd be very close if not), who Dooku is probably above by ROTS as ridiculous as that sounds.

Caedus is more powerful, but not by such a degree that he can overpower Dooku without exhausting himself or at the very least leaving himself vulnerable.

Feel free to offer your thoughts. I'll keep an eye on this thread in the meantime.

@BoD Caedus has Fighting Sight (precog on steroids) and ridiculous damage soak, that gives him a massive advantage.

@BoD:

Since you seem to agree Caedus is more powerful I won't spend time needlessly explaining why, especially given I concur with the notion you've put forth regarding Caedus's inability to straight up overpower Dooku as a result of this edge, at least not initially. That being said I think it's likely that Caedus's fighting sight will prevent Dooku from outmaneovring him (Given it allowed him to match Juke constantly throughout their duel, somebody more powerful than the Count by a good margin and wielding an unpredictable style on top of that) and his ability to draw off pain should carry him through (Given the minor injuries throughout his duel with Luke only amped him) in spite of whatever non-fatal damage the Count does to him. Eventually Dooku's reserves will drain and Caedus can force an opening to disable him with a single blast of FL (Like he did against Juke) or gut him ouright. You'll see expansion on these ideas in my SS with Grey though, so I've decided to leave it as vague as possible.