★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

After carefully examining the arguments of ILS, my uncertainty has turned into resolve, the Commander reigns.

You're aware that we have other examples of "far more powerful" not translating into "X stomps Y in a fight", yes? Vong Krayt far outstrips Wyyrlok but the exponentially more powerful Reborn Krayt doesn't ragdoll him, or even directly TK him?

As I said, and you ignored, I'm not literally saying Abeloth is a dozen times more powerful than Luke. That's a strawman. I'm making a proportionate comparison of the descriptions. Proportionately, "a dozen times the Force strength" or even "with greater strength than I ever did" (which is a comparison of Abeloth's non combative, casual power to Luke's peak power) denotes a much bigger disparity than "much the power of". Its so obvious that it shouldn't need spelling out. One quote is establishing that Abeloth is clearly much more powerful than Luke, another that Luke and Vol are close.

Same deal with the Vader 80% shit. The actual figures used are irrelevant, and were never relevant to my point. 80% on its own can mean anything but in that context, Vader was directly compared to Maul and Dooku. And since we know how Maul and Dooku compare to Sidious (not very well), 80%, in this context, means Vader is not very close to Sidious.


Bombarding the thread with strawmans is doing little for your appeal to methodology.

Exar Kun (6/32, 18.75%)
LadyKulvax
Nute_Chethray
EmperorCaedus
Jake
HellfireUnit
Decaf_Beverages

The Hero of Tython (9/32, 28.125%)
BoD
Praxis
TenebrousWay
KingofBlades
Geistalt
NotAA3
DarthSkywalker0
XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
DarthAnt66

Darish Vol (11/32, 34.375%)
DarthAdi
The lord of hunger
IG
Blade_of_Dorin
lorenzo.r.2nd
Seturna
Shioz
MasterCilghal
ILS
Gianfi
HeartoftheForce

Darth Tyranus (2/32, 6.25%)
Reynard (Ethanion)
> Korriban

Gethzerion (1/32, 3.125%)
Azronger

Darth Tenebrous (1/32, 3.125%)
CuckedCurry

Vaylin (1/32, 3.125%)
xolthol

Starkiller (1/32, 3.125%)
Syndiciate

Potential voters:
ScionOfSkywalker77

Darish Vol.

ILS wrote:You're aware that we have other examples of "far more powerful" not translating into "X stomps Y in a fight", yes? Vong Krayt far outstrips Wyyrlok but the exponentially more powerful Reborn Krayt doesn't ragdoll him, or even directly TK him?

As I said, and you ignored, I'm not literally saying Abeloth is a dozen times more powerful than Luke. That's a strawman. I'm making a proportionate comparison of the descriptions. Proportionately, "a dozen times the Force strength" or even "with greater strength than I ever did" (which is a comparison of Abeloth's non combative, casual power to Luke's peak power) denotes a much bigger disparity than "much the power of". Its so obvious that it shouldn't need spelling out. One quote is establishing that Abeloth is clearly much more powerful than Luke, another that Luke and Vol are close.

Same deal with the Vader 80% shit. The actual figures used are irrelevant, and were never relevant to my point. 80% on its own can mean anything but in that context, Vader was directly compared to Maul and Dooku. And since we know how Maul and Dooku compare to Sidious (not very well), 80%, in this context, means Vader is not very close to Sidious.


Bombarding the thread with strawmans is doing little for your appeal to methodology.

You're getting caught in a loop. Consider my point in the context of your Maul example. I agree that Lucas' communication of the 80% figure can be well-understood given he provides references to Maul and Dooku. You are likewise trying to use the "dozen times" quote as a reference for the "much the power" quote. However, you dropped your only reasons for explaining why they inform the other in your previous posts ... then now just accused me of strawmanning you when addressing them. Lucas' quotes comes from the same author, at the same date, at the same interview. Your quotes come from different books, different in-universe characters, different out-of-universe authors, and different intended literalism. The only relevant connection they have is, like you said, they are both apart of a cohesive Star Wars continuity. Like I said, so is Lucas. Lucas' 80% remains just as valid, or far more valid given my last post, a reference for the meaning of "much" as the "dozen times." So, when you say you're "making a proportionate comparison of the descriptions," so am I by likening Lucas' 80% with Vol's "much the power" ... with just as much or more justification behind it. 

Your case is, by any way you look at it, not a viable argument. You just can't do what you want to do.

Put another way, so you see what I mean, explain to me again why we should use the "dozen times" quote to inform the "much" quote over other references like Lucas'.

Hint: Again, don't say it's from the same book, character, author, or intended literalism. None are true. And don't say it's apart of the cohesive continuity. So is Lucas!

Why do you think Luke or Abeloth being the gaugers, or the lines being written by different authors, is reasonable grounds for dismissal? How does that address the core point that one line obviously indicates the disparity between Luke and Abeloth and the other indicates Luke and Vol's closeness? You're not addressing the point, you're suggesting the lines aren't valid for comparison because they are by different authors and actors without explaining why this would invalidate them.

As for this:

Ant wrote:Put another way, so you see what I mean, explain to me again why we should use the "dozen times" quote to inform the "much" quote over other references like Lucas'.

I didn't say they should be used over the Lucas quote? Nor that we shouldn't use the Lucas quote? I said the quotes are only meaningful in their given context? What part of this is difficult?

The reason I'm not using the Lucas quote is because (and this should be obvious) it doesn't even mention Vol, Luke or Abeloth. It's comparing different characters in a different context... surely you can grasp why it is I wouldn't mention it here?

Geistalt wrote:Exar Kun (6/32, 18.75%)
LadyKulvax
Nute_Chethray
EmperorCaedus
Jake
HellfireUnit
Decaf_Beverages

The Hero of Tython (9/32, 28.125%)
BoD
Praxis
TenebrousWay
KingofBlades
Geistalt
NotAA3
DarthSkywalker0
XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
DarthAnt66

Darish Vol (11/32, 34.375%)
DarthAdi
The lord of hunger
IG
Blade_of_Dorin
lorenzo.r.2nd
Seturna
Shioz
MasterCilghal
ILS
Gianfi
HeartoftheForce

Darth Tyranus (2/32, 6.25%)
Reynard (Ethanion)
> Korriban

Gethzerion (1/32, 3.125%)
Azronger

Darth Tenebrous (1/32, 3.125%)
CuckedCurry

Vaylin (1/32, 3.125%)
xolthol

Starkiller (1/32, 3.125%)
Syndiciate

Potential voters:
ScionOfSkywalker77

Gianfi withdrew his vote and Ziggy voted for Kun in the prior round, probably just forgot to do so this time.

I'm yet to see any adequate reply from the Darish Vol camp that refutes the above. Exar Kun remains > Darish Vol.

@ILS: 

The fact one quote compares Luke and Abeloth, and another quote compares Luke and Vol, doesn't mean you can then compare Abeloth and Vol when the comparisons are qualitatively different. Under Luke's point-of-view, Golden's prose, and an hyperbolic intent, Abeloth has "a dozen times the Force strength" of Luke. However, under Abeloth's point-of-view, Denning's prose, and a literal intent, Luke may actually have "much" the power of Abeloth. He destroys her in CQC with a lightsaber and temporarily matches her in a TK grip-contest. He easily potentially fits the definition for "much." So, you see the issue then. You can't just slide over the "dozen times" quote to the "much" quote and assume they'll give a proportional frame of reference. The very act of sliding them generates the potential for change that disrupts the proportionality. That is, unless you already know the starting point and ending point are structured the same. But we even know they're not--different authors, perspectives, intents! So, at a bare minimum, we know that they're specifically not a proportional frame of reference--just not to what extent, hence the noted ambiguity of the quote. 

So, why do I keep bringing up Lucas? Because under Lucas' point-of-view, Vader has "twenty percent less" the power of Palpatine yet would still die to a single gesture. This reveals that it's plausible for a quote like "much the power of Luke," then proportionately adjusted for another context, can actually still yield "gets one-shotted by Luke." So, not only do we know that "many times" and "much" are not a proportional frame of reference, we also know that, if you try to make them a proportional frame of reference, there is precedent from the highest Star Wars continuity authority for the comparisons to manifest totally different than perhaps expected.

Antoine wrote:The fact one quote compares Luke and Abeloth, and another quote compares Luke and Vol, doesn't mean you can then compare Abeloth and Vol when the comparisons are qualitatively different. 

Vol already has a direct comparison to Luke and Abeloth respectively, the point here has been to quantify more precisely the gap between Luke and Vol. That gap is, demonstrably, smaller the gap between Luke and Abeloth.

 Under Luke's point-of-view, Golden's prose, and an hyperbolic intent, Abeloth has "a dozen times the Force strength" of Luke. However, under Abeloth's point-of-view, Denning's prose, and a literal intent, Luke may actually have "much" the power of Abeloth.

He could (because even say, Ventress or Maul, could have "much" the strength of Sidious due to the fact this shit isn't linear at all), but that's not the point. We would never see a quote saying Luke has "a dozen times the Force strength of Darish Vol". The fact that Abeloth is described as so much more powerful than Luke that hyperbole is needed should be enough to tell you that the disparity between them is greater than the disparity between Luke and someone who has "much" of his power, and who Abeloth directly compared to Luke because she had had a "devastating encounter" with each of them.

Moreover, context is important, and the context of FotJ is much more relevant than the context of the PT/OT and Lucas, because it's the same series dealing with the same set of characters and stories. In this series, Abeloth has, without having any defense prepared, withstood two full-powered attacks from Luke, and one from Darish Vol (not to mention all of the other attacks like Font!Vestara and Font-Oneness!Ben), and rather than killing her (which, if Luke actually had "much" the power of Abeloth, he would likely have killed her in that single attack) she only lost a fraction of her total power. Moreover, again, we're talking about someone who has shunted a planet-threatening amount of energy into a body and melted a city with her subconscious anger. In this context, when Abeloth is stated to be a "dozen times more powerful than Luke", and using the Force with "greater strength than [Luke] ever did", which would include points in time where he was at his absolute limit e.g dovin basal, Jade Shadow, TUF, DE, then however hyperbolic the description is, given the context, it's enough to tell us that there is a more sizeable gap between Abeloth and Luke than there is between Luke and Vol. 

You can't just slide over the "dozen times" quote to the "much" quote and assume they'll give a proportional frame of reference. The very act of sliding them generates the potential for change that disrupts the proportionality.

This is assuming that you are focused solely on the numerical values used to express the power differences rather than how those numerical values are being used. Which is not what we are doing. You can argue that Luke has "much" the power of Abeloth, but what that phrase means in practice is entirely contingent on the context it is being used in. In this context, Abeloth's power advantage over Luke is described in a much more extreme manner than the comparison made between Luke and Vol.

So, why do I keep bringing up Lucas? Because under Lucas' point-of-view, Vader has "twenty percent less" the power of Palpatine yet would still die to a single gesture. This reveals that it's plausible for a quote like "much the power of Luke," then proportionately adjusted for another context, can actually still yield "gets one-shotted by Luke."

Yes, but you've given me no reason to believe that an offhand quote from Lucas from an interview about completely different characters is more relevant than quotes written within the same series by a team of collaborating authors who have every line they write edited and approved by Lucasfilms.

We know for a fact how Luke and Abeloth compare, and with that comparison in mind, Abeloth is "dozens of times more powerful" than Luke.
We know for a fact how Vol and Abeloth compare, and with that comparison in mind, Vol has "much the power of" Luke.

Both of them can last for a time against Abeloth, but are ultimately outmatched. As you yourself concede, the "much the power of" Luke quote is much more literally stated than the hyperbolic "dozens" quote, so then surely you must have to concede that this draws a pretty strong comparison between Vol and Luke if it's being literal. I'm not sure how you could come to the conclusion that there would be an equal or greater gap between Luke and Vol, compared to Luke and Abeloth? Is that your argument? Do you think Luke would ever be described as being dozens of times more powerful than Vol, or even more extremely than that?

Given the quotes we have, and given that the authors have full license to be as literal or hyperbolic as they wish, I see no reason to dismiss the comparison altogether. Moreover, it's unclear what your point actually is. I've raised numerous other arguments for Vol, such as the fact he tanked an attack from Abeloth, threw all of his energy into an attack against her and survived the subsequent rebuff from her. It's also clear that regardless of your critiques Vol is closer to Luke than he is Abeloth, since they are similarly outclassed by her in practice, that it's stated the only way to defeat her is for the Jedi and Sith to join forces, etc, and again, since we've established the gaps between Luke/Vol and Abeloth, we can then state quite safely that the gap between Luke and Vol must be smaller by definition.


And again, given that there is this relatively small distance between Luke and Vol, and Luke's feats mathematically take a giant dump over Valkorion's best, and then subsequently given that Valkorion is further above the Outlander than Luke is Vol (because we know Valk can telekinetically affect the Outlander on command, but even Abeloth has difficulty doing this to Luke or Vol, let alone them doing it to each other), what argument is left for the Outlander?

No matter how you slice it, Luke comes out looking better than Valkorion, and so anyone that can resist Luke's direct TK (or frigging Abeloth's) is, by definition, more powerful than the Outlander, who is susceptible to Valkorion's direct TK.

I'd like to see an affirmative argument for the Outlander being > Vol, or Valkorion > Luke, rather than these attempts to try and mitigate Vol's pretty straight forward feats and accolades. Even if you skin Vol down to his most basic feats, which include surviving against Abeloth, that's still mathematically way more impressive than anything the Outlander has done. Hence why the only response to that part of my argument was "how do you know the Outlander couldn't do that too?" opposed to "Here is a feat proving the Outlander can do that too." Vol's feats are just better.

For those who didn't read my previous case for Vaylin you can find it in the spoiler section just below.

Call out:

CASE FOR VAYLIN:

Just for you to remember from what she scales:
Fully Unchained Vaylin >>> Start of Unchaining Vaylin >>>>>> Prime Chained Vaylin >> KotET 3 Chained Vaylin > Spirit Valkorion >> Killing all life on Ziost + Disturbing the magnetic field of the planet (impacting its core) + impacting the atmosphere.


Now I will make a concrete case for the main opponent to Vaylin for this place. This will include my response to @MasterCilghal 's post (HERE)

- AGAINST VOL -

MasterCilghal wrote:You’are assuming the Abeloth Vol faced was somehow city-level in power. I don’t think there’s any indication that is the case. All of her avatars, with the exception of the extremely weakened ones faced by Saba and Tahiri/Boba have consistently been portrayed to be beyond FOTJ Luke Skywalker, who has been repeatedly able to perform feats that can easily be categorized as planetary in magnitude (e.g. the dovin basal one, which is moon-level at the very least).

As I explained (and as yourself pointed out) we have several incarnation of Abeloth that aren't as powerful as Luke. I call this "inconsistency". Because of this we cannot say that Abeloth's avatars are equal. We need to use their showing in order to know whether or not they are equal to top power Abeloth.

MasterCilghal wrote:As for the feat itself, when she unleashed force blast to destroy T(r)ahv Vol had just used mnemotherapy to damage her mind. The novel later makes it clear she was left severely injured by the attack

Yes but the fact that you are injured didn't necessarly hindered your ability to deal damage or to be destructive. 
A good comparison is when you hunt, have you ever hunted a injured boar? They are the most dangerous, usually they fear the man and the hounds, while injured they don't care and can attack with the same power that before or even more because they're enraged. And I'm not talking about a small injury but rather a big one that threaten his life (for example a bullet in his belly or leg). 
Coming back to my point, an injured Abeloth can deal as many damage than an intact one and maybe even more if infurianted.

MasterCilghal wrote:Furthermore, the blast was meant to destroy the city, but Abeloth seemed to have purposefully decided to attack and destroy the city itself, not the entire planet.

WRONG:  the blast was meant to kill as many Lost Tribe members as she can. As you quoted yourself:

FotJ wrote:They were the Lost Tribe-they would suffer, all of them, as their leader had made her suffer

The important point here is the fact that there is member of the Lost Tribe that didn't live in Tahv. If she could have killed them she would have.

In addition you seems to forget that she wasn't able to master herself. As you explain she “couldn’t retain her form” or even “feel harm”. In addition to this we have the fact that Abeloth: "was barely aware that she was releasing nearly inconceivable amounts of Force energy". Last but not least, at the end she wasn't able to stand, she was convulsing on the ground: "She barely noticed when she was lifted from the street where she lay convulsing up into the night air"

Because of this it is pretty obvious that this version of Abeloth was like an injured beast that was blinded by the pain and unleashed all the power that she can as a reaction to what happened to her. Thus this clearly proof that this version of Abeloth is a city-level threat therefore Vol cannot be clearly scale above this and is far below Prime Chained Vaylin who is already more than a planetarian level threat. 
As a result the gap with Unchained Vaylin and Darish Vol is just gargantuan. 

Because no one is still arguing for Koro Zill I won't take time to respond to your argument in his favor.

- AGAINST KUN -

Contrary to the last time I've debated with him @LadyKulvax  have presented way stronger argument in favor of Kun. Thus they need to be adressed. 

One of the easiest way for me to disqualify Kun would be to use the (in)famous quote explaining that Malak is far above Kun. 
Based on this and the fact that Darth Malak (with the Star Forge amp) was defeated by a weaker version of Revan that was himself weaker than Novel Vitiate (who haven't anything that put him above Unchained Vaylin and her insane level of power) we have that Vaylin must be just leagues above Kun. 
But "to conquer without danger we triumph without glory" so lets forget this quote and focus on the argument and scaling that @LadyKulvax provided.

~New Republic measurment~

The final scaling chains that you didn't provide are the following ones:

• Prime Kun > Ja Kun > Kueller >> Full power Kyp Duron > Dovin Basal feat
  

• Prime Kun > Ja Kun > Kueller > New Rebellion Luke Skywalker > Mountain level feat.
  

While this scaling chain are quite impressive they aren't really solid. Lets focus on them properly and see their flaws.

First of all you have the fact that Luke said that he "feel a power he hadn’t felt in a living being since he encountered the Emperor" (talking about Kueller). But he already met Exar Kun on a powerful DS Nexus (*) and even defeat him in his astral form (**)
As a result this quote should also included Kun... problematic isn't it ?
And we have the other quote from Leia: "This Kueller had more Force capability than anyone she had encountered in years. Except Exar Kun". 
If this quote is true, then Kueller is below Kun... 

As a result you need to explain us : is kueller more powerful than kun OR the opposite ?
With this you have 2 possibility:

• if you think that Kun is more powerful than Kueller, this invalidate the fact that Kueller is above Full Power Kyp Durron (by negating the quote that put him above anything that Luke ever feel).
  
• if you think that Kueller is more powerful, well... use him as a candidate for this place, not Kun.
  

The second point that you seems to forget is that when Luke faced Kueller he wasn't AT ALL in his normal physical state... He just survived an explosion of an X-Wing and broke his ankle while landing violently.

New Rebellion wrote:The buildings were close on both sides. The X-wing shuddered again, and the computer locked. The screens went dark. Luke reached for the eject button only to find it was missing.
There was no droid eject either, of course.
He was stuck.
He grabbed for the hatch. He would open it by hand. He had no other choice. The ground spun close to him--as the X-wing exploded.
[…]
Luke wrapped his arms around his head as he soared through the air. Bits of flaming shrapnel fell all around him. He had barely opened the X-wing's hatch when the ship exploded. If he had been inside, he probably would have broken his neck against the shatterproof glass.
It felt as if he fell forever. His skin burned where the shrapnel hit him. He couldn't control the fall. There was nowhere soft to land. He braced himself, using all of his Force strength, but something was interfering. He felt as if he were wrapped in cotton.
And then he landed. Legs first, the bones in his left ankle snapping. He tucked and rolled, the carved pavement biting his back, his shoulders. He kept rolling until he slammed into a building, and he lay there for a moment, unable to breathe from the shock of it all.

And this directly impact him during the fight:

New Rebellion wrote:In a series of five rapid thrusts, Kueller moved Luke backward again. Luke parried, parried, parried, but couldn't keep his balance. His ankle was clearly broken and unable to support him. Kueller jabbed at Luke's left side. Luke swiveled to dodge, and Kueller jabbed again. Luke's ankle buckled, but he didn't fall.

Last but not least, Kueller was amp by Luke during the fight because of his anger:

New Rebellion wrote:Then Kueller laughed, a gurgling, familiar laugh. The Emperor's laugh, the unamused choking of a slave to the dark side.
Fueled by hatred, anger, and fear.
Luke was making him stronger. Luke's response, his hatred, his own self-loathing at creating this thing, this student who had become a horror, was making the thing even stronger.

As a result with all of his in your mind, we can understand the quote saying that Luke "would need all of his strenght". 

Because of all of this we cannot conclude that Kueller is more powerful or equal to Luke.

Therefore the scaling that you produced here aren't viable at all and thus didn't place Exar Kun above Unchained Vaylin by any means.

*: 

Codex Entries: Oricon wrote:Located in an unremarkable system well off the Hydian Way, Oricon seems an almost arbitrary choice for the Dread Masters’ home. But anyone with an affinity for the Force can sense that the rocky Outer Rim moon is immeasurably strong with the dark side.

The Old Republic Shadow of Revan wrote:The dark side permeates everything here. Saturates it. I've been to Oricon, this is another level entirely

**: 

Champions of the Force wrote:Luke rounded on him, still not knowing how to fight this intangible enemy. Exar Kun laughed, as if an idea had just occurred to him. "I came to you first in a dream disguised as your fallen father, Skywalker... perhaps I should appear to them in your own form. They will certainly follow the teachings of the Sith if the words come from your mouth."
"No!" Luke said. With his astral body he leaped to tackle the shimmering silhouette of the Sith lord. But though his sparkling body passed smoothly through the shadow, Exar Kun did seem to discorporate momentarily.
Luke felt a spear of ice plunge through his core as he touched Kun, but he stood firm while the Dark Lord reeled against the stone wall, seeping back into the cracks to escape.
"I've already been tempered by the dark side," Luke said. "I came out stronger. You are weak because you know only the evil teachings. Your understanding is no greater than that of my apprentices."

~Old Sith War scaling~

This scaling chain that he didn't provide is the following:

Maul ~ Qui-Gon-Jinn << King Adas < Jedi Exiles < Naga Sadow << Ritual Amped Naga Sadow <<< Sith Ritual on Ambria < Master Thon < Vodo-Siosk Baas < Freedon Nadd < Exar Kun << Prime Exar Kun

This is an impressive scaling chain, however like in the previous one there is lots of flaws in it. 

First of all, you claimed that King Adas' holocron only contains a fraction of his power. But you didn't provide anything to substantiate this claim. Your scans explicitly say the opposite: "The holocron contains the essence of an ancient Sith warlord King named Adas". It is stated that the holocron contain the essence of Adas, not a part of his power. Thus your theory saying that Adas' holocron only have a fraction of its power didn't work.

Another flaws in your attempt to scale this is your claimed that Naga Sadow is more powerful than the Exiles. Indeed while it is true that Marka Ragnos is more powerful than them, we have absolutely no idea by what amount he was more powerful.
In addition, and as yourself pointed out, Naga Sadow was less powerful than Marka Ragnos. But you forget that the gap between the two was pretty huge. Indeed remember that Sadow didn't even dare to challenge Marka Ragnos and that a mere apparition of his spirit was able to stop the fight between Ludo Kresh and Naga Sadow.

The most problematic point is your Ambria Ritual/Thon scaling. 

First of all you claimed that the sith spirits would've consumed a star sector... to be honnest this is a ludicrous assemption. The scan that you gave speak about a threat to "consume the entire sector". The more logical reflexion would have been to understand that the sith spirits threat to destroy the whole planet (its remains) or a part of it (a sector). 
Now lets think a bit: we have a sorceress that gather power through "hundreds of years". She achieve a sith ritual " that called on more power than any individual had asked of the dark side before". However for some unknown reason the ritual failed and the resulting backslash (which comes from more power than anyone have ever asked fom the DS) "destroyed every living thing" on Ambria and "infused the remaining element with deep dark side stains". When taking into account the fact that the DS spirits from "remained, imbedded in the very land itself" it is obvious that this dark side stains were the dark side spirits.

It is certain that this sith spirits were less powerful than the whole ritual itself, it could even make sense for them to be part of the ritual, their power trapped by the sorceress after the death of their body. 

As a result, if this ritual wasn't able to destroy more than a planet, how can this spirits consume a whole space sector? This is a perfect non-sense.

The next problem is that you claimed (whithout any proof) that Master Thon was able to contains both this power and the spirits. However it is pretty obvious that this is wrong. 
When the ritual failed, most of the power must have been dissipated and only the spirits (and maybe an unqauntifyable part of the backlash) remains on Ambria. It is like saying that after the Ziost cataclysm all the power that the Emperor use to consume the planet was still on it... Once again this is a non-sense.

Last but not least you claim that Master Thon was more powerful than all of the spirits gathered on Ambria. Once again this is based on your interpretation of a quote that is "easily repelled the assaults ". However, you have no proof that: (1) all the spirits attacked together and not one after the other (or by teams) (2) he was able to defeat them (repelling =/= defeating). And its seems pretty clear that he wasn't powerful enough to defeat them because he need a trick in order to succeed : "In a final desperate strategy, Thon swam out into the middle of Lake Natth and surrendered himself to the dark side. But as the sith spirits converged on his limp form, Thon lashed out with the Force, ensnarring his enemies in the lattice work of light-side energy"

With all of this it is pretty obvious that no, master Thon isn't more powerful than all of this spirits but more cunning.


The final problem that your scaling chain have is that you claimed that Freedon Nadd is able to one shot Master Vodo-Siosk Baas. And the only thing that you provide is the fact that Nadd was able to block Baas trying to reach Exar Kun through the Force. 
You are making a big mistake by doing this. Indeed, you forget that: 

• Nadd and Kun were on a powerful DS nexus which amped Nadd and hindered Master Vodo. 
  
• Vodo-Siosk need to reach Kun who is really far from him while Nadd is just near Kun
  

Taking into account this whole context we can easily understadn that this isn't at all a legitimate win for Nadd and thus that it isn't reliable to try scaling anyone from this.

With all of this correction given to your scaling chain we ended with this parts of scaling chains:

• Exiles > King Adas >~ Qui-Gon Jinn ~ Maul
  
• Ambria Ritual > Naga Sadow Ritual > Naga Sadow
  
• Master Vodo > Master Thon
  
• Prime Kun >> Kun > Nadd
  

With all of this it seems pretty obvious that Kun haven't anything to compete with Unchained Vaylin.

~Other claimed for Kun~

LadyKulvax wrote:Exar Kun in numerous quotes, was more powerful than Kyp Durron

WRONG: the three quotes that you gave never state this or are used out of context.

Dark Apprentice wrote:His best students were going sour, getting impatient, trying to push the limits of their abilities. But he had sensed a greater, deeper menace that vibrated within the very stones of the Great Temple itself. . . evil, and well hidden

First of all, you forget that Yavin IV is a DS nexus so amping DS users (such as Kun) and hindering LS users (such as Kyp). 
Then you also forget that at this time, Kyp wasn't in his prime thus having something more powerful than him isn't the proof that this something is more powerful than prime Kyp. A comparison can be Anakin Skywalker. Would you argue that because padawan Anakin is less powerful than Kit Fisto it translate into Kit Fisto being more powerful than prime Anakin? (Hint: the answer begin with N and end with O). 

I, Jedi wrote:"And who will stop me?" I hesitated because Kyp's words seemed to echo within themselves, we were not alone, which meant Kyp's mentor had come to aid his apprentice.

"I will, if you make it necessary." An ancient sneer of contempt twisted Kyp's features.

"Puny Jedi, you are of no concern to me." Even though I had braced myself for another attack, it did no good. Kyp's previous blows were like light breezes compared to this full-on gale. I slammed back into the wall with teeth rattling-impact.

We have just the proof that not prime Kyp is less powerful than Exar Kun + Kyp... not a proof at all that Kun is above prime Kyp. (and don't forget the DS nexus).

Dark Apprentice wrote:He searched, sending his thoughts like a probe deep into the storm systems of the gas giant. Behind him, Kyp felt the black-ice power of Exar Kun arise, tapping into him and reinforcing his abilities. His own feeble exploratory touch suddenly plunged forward like a blaster bolt.

This quote only explained that both Exar Kun and Kyp reinforced the other mutually. Still not a proof that Kun is above peak Kyp.

~CONCLUSION~

Despite all this great work of @LadyKulvax, none of this scaling chain is enough to show that Kun is above Unchained Vaylin.

- AGAINST THE OUTLANDER -

Contrary to the last time, I won't focus myself on the argument that have been thrown in favor of the Outlander because the didn't impact at all my scaling and reflexion on Unchained Vaylin. But I will focus myself on the fight between Vaylin and Outlander at the end of KotET and explained why despite losing against the Outlander AND Valkorion (as a spirit) Vaylin is above the Outlander.

One of the first argument that can come to mind is the fact that Valkorion choose the Outlander and not Vaylin as his futur body. However while Valkorion was sure that he can tricked the Outlander, he feared his daugther because: 

1. her power could rivals or even surpasses his own
   
2. she is too unstable to be controlled
   
3. she wouldn't be as easy as the Outlander to be tricked, knowing how insanely she hates her father.
   
4. But most importantly, Valkorion want the power of Vaylin for himself. And he succeed when the Outlander defeted Vaylin he absorb her power and then was able to easily ragdoll the Outlander [Valkorion ragdolling the Outlander]
   

After the gameplay fight, she unleashed her power in an wave of power that send everyone bar the Outlander flying. The reason that explained why the Outlander survived this impressive blast is because Valkorion protect him:



Then Valkorion claimed that he didn't have anymore power over Vaylin, clearly explaining that he is doing his maximum to help the Outlander and that he need to do the remaining part on his own.
As everyone can see in the cutscene [Outlander progressing] the Outlander succeed to progress up to Vaylin but with really huge difficulties showing that he only has a bit more power than her despite being helped by Valkorion.

Therefore we have: Outlander + Valkorion (spiritual form) >~ Prime Unchained Vaylin.
When we compare this to the fact that increased by the power of Vaylin, Valkorion casually ragdolled the Outlander (cf above) we have: Valkorion (spiritual form) + Vaylin's power >>>>> Outlander 

As a result it is now pretty obvious that Prime Unchained Vaylin is above the Outlander in term of power if the latter isn't protected/amped by Valkorion.

-CONCLUSION-

Unchained Vaylin reigns supreme !

Vote for her!

Fuck it, I vote for the Outlander

I vote Vaylin

1.Luke specifically says 'living being'. Obviously Kun's spirit is not a living being. There's no contradiction whatsoever here and I don't see how you could possibly have missed this.

2.Luke being in a poor state is irrelevant, the quotes binding him beneath Kueller in NR aren't context relevant at all.

3.Luke Skywalker's spirit causing a spirit Kun exhausted by drawing out the Suncrusher, defeating Luke Skywalker and summoning a cyclone through Streen to 'recoil' in an exchange that had nothing to do with power isn't defeating him. Luke's spirit is literally bound to Kun.

4.It's Adas' essence, not the spirit. Those aren't the same things. You further ignored other sources provided.

5.You completely ignored that the Star Map didn't effect the more powerful Sith Empire of the Ragnos Golden Age and that Naga Sadow was the second most powerful of said Empire. Whereas the same Star Map completely tore apart the minds of the Exiles and was the literal source of their power.

6.The spirits have already consumed Ambria, that's literally the problem. They cover the planet. These spirits threatening to consume something they've already tainted and subsumed makes no sense at all. It's clearly refering to that sector of space. Ambria never even had a government, and was never colonised. How can it even be divided in sectors? None of this makes sense. The power of the spirits scales over the explosion and its energy given that they're powerful to spread across an entire sector and consume it.

7.Thon can 'easily' repel the spirits and you're wrong to say it isn't all of them because they clearly kept gathering for attacks just as they did when they attacked. You literally quoted what proves this. Thon however grows tired of repeatedly defeating them, it exhausts his power. But more importantly, given how we know these things work, you have to be more powerful for a light side blocking attack to work. See: Exar Kun vs Odan-Urr, who attempts to sever Kun from the Force and fails.

8.I'm not sure you even understand what happened between Nadd and Vodo, Vodo from across space attempts to surround Exar Kun with Force light to protect him. Nadd repacts by telepathically attacking Vodo from across the galaxy which completely yeets Vodo.

Nadd isn't amped by Korriban, Nadd uses Korriban as an anchor from which to appear to Kun That's how spirits work.

9.Again, Kun's spirit isn't amped. It's using the focal points as an anchor for his spirit to avoid being dragged into the void. Sith spirits are dependent on anchors to exist.

You completely ignored that Kun augmented Kyp's power into being at its full potential. It's literally said in my post. And further quotes confirm Kun > Kyp too.


Nothing you've said debunks any part of my argument. Almost every contention you made just ignored the sources I provided. This did nothing. Please re-read my arguments and understand what was said properly. This was a waste of my time.

HellfireUnit wrote:I vote Vaylin

Nothing xolthol said was right.

Due to the current count of the votes, I am afraid I'll go with Exar Kun.

This post is my final major one, and for good reason. It's probably my best thus far. Time for explanations:

Lord Dramath was attacked by Tenebrae in his son's youth and stripped of his connection to the Force; I'm taking the Codex Entry as this is the only non-IU source that depicts events:

Lord Dramath Codex Entry wrote:Tenebrae, the future Sith Emperor and immortal ruler of Zakuul. That day, Tenebrae removed his father's connection to the Force and imprisoned him within a powerful holocron

Dramath's spirit is left to 'wither' into 'madness' over 1,300 years:

Lord Dramath Codex Entry wrote:Leaving Dramath alone to wither slowly into madness over an eternity.

Yet after this, Dramath is able to contend with Vaylin and Arcann alongside the Outlander and attack the spirit of Tenebrae, both dominating him momentarily and wounding him:



Clearly, Tenebrae's victory over Dramath in his youth lacks considerable context, if Dramath in a far stronger state was < 10 year old Tenebrae he'd be absolutely nothing compared to KOTET spirit Tenebrae.

Lord Dramath is however very much the canonical inferior of Marka Ragnos as he is defeated during Ragnos' reign:

Chronicles of the Old Republic wrote:Meanwhile, on the far side of the galaxy, the Sith Empire has grown powerful through centuries of dark Force wielding and magic and the hundred-year rule of the greatest Dark Lord of the Sith, MARKA RAGNOS.

Tales of the Jedi wrote:Marka Ragnos ruled the galaxy with an iron fist. He was the Dark Lord of the Sith — the most powerful of the most powerful.

Tomb of Marka Ragnos Codex Entry wrote:Strength, power and strategy marked the rule of Marka Ragnos.

Exar Kun, quite possibly as early as his duel with Ulic Qel-Droma, inherited the power of Marka Ragnos. He is confirmed regardless to be the canonical superior of Marka Ragnos afterwards.

Simply put Kun, Ragnos and Lord Dramath in his prime are very legitimate threats to the spirit of prime Tenebrae.

Vote Exar Kun.

On that note, I vote for Marka Ragnos

So Exar Kun, then. Wonderful.

Vol should be a banned character, his range is too large.

DarthSkywalker0 wrote:Vol should be a banned character, his range is too large.

yes, let's not ban planet sucker Valkorion, galaxy junkie Sheev, a guy with Alzheimers and multiple personality disorder who resurrects himself via willpower, the child of the Chosen One and bla bla but let's ban Vol. Even Nihilus being banned is lame, no need narrow down the viable characters list further.

HellfireUnit wrote:

DarthSkywalker0 wrote:Vol should be a banned character, his range is too large.

yes, let's not ban planet sucker Valkorion, galaxy junkie Sheev, a guy with Alzheimers and multiple personality disorder who resurrects himself via willpower, the child of the Chosen One and bla bla but let's ban Vol. Even Nihilus being banned is lame, no need narrow down the viable characters list further.

Those characters have a more diverse array of feats and accolades which allow us to better assess their powers. Vol, on the other hand, has a much wider range of possible power. Not sure how your examples of unbanned characters rebuke this point in the slightest.

changing my vote to the outlander

DarthSkywalker0 wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:

DarthSkywalker0 wrote:Vol should be a banned character, his range is too large.

yes, let's not ban planet sucker Valkorion, galaxy junkie Sheev, a guy with Alzheimers and multiple personality disorder who resurrects himself via willpower, the child of the Chosen One and bla bla but let's ban Vol. Even Nihilus being banned is lame, no need narrow down the viable characters list further.

Those characters have a more diverse array of feats and accolades which allow us to better assess their powers. Vol, on the other hand, has a much wider range of possible power. Not sure how your examples rebuke this point in the slightest.

Which provides debaters to put up a considerable effort and bring in new arguments thus making the tournament actually feels like one.

HellfireUnit wrote:

DarthSkywalker0 wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:

DarthSkywalker0 wrote:Vol should be a banned character, his range is too large.

yes, let's not ban planet sucker Valkorion, galaxy junkie Sheev, a guy with Alzheimers and multiple personality disorder who resurrects himself via willpower, the child of the Chosen One and bla bla but let's ban Vol. Even Nihilus being banned is lame, no need narrow down the viable characters list further.

Those characters have a more diverse array of feats and accolades which allow us to better assess their powers. Vol, on the other hand, has a much wider range of possible power. Not sure how your examples rebuke this point in the slightest.

Which provides debaters to put up a considerable effort and bring in new arguments thus making the tournament actually feels like one.

Where in this response is my point addressed? Make up as many arguments as you want, if there is no way to quantify there is no way to quantify.