Is Vader really TPM Maul level?

Is Vader really TPM Maul level (feats, scaling, statements, etc are all allowed) without author intent getting in the way to hinder the characters they don’t like while boosting the ones they do

Does it matter? This still puts him up as a high tier duelist given that Maul was noted as one of the deadliest Sith in all its history. But let's back up a moment, if you're referring to the Resurrection comic, let's take everything into account of what that comic provided shall we?

It's clearly set during the time of ANH where the Rebels have the plans to the Death Star, giving the opening dialogue by Vader.

So then, taking that into account, we can see by ANH, Vader would be at this level.

Now later sources after this comic state that he grew as a combatant, blah, blah, blah.

So it's either he is at the level or above it later on in time, however that said....we're just not sure exactly how much greater just that...he is, but there's no real reference because those that he does fight in saber combat...well I'm sure Maul wouldn't have much trouble with them either. He might fight differently for sure, but I think many are looking at it too narrow.

Vader being Maul level does and doesn't mean anything. He's not Maul, he fights completely differently than Maul, it just makes him one of the deadliest Sith warriors in history....but we already knew that, nothing really has changed.

Why people believe something about Vader changed...I'm not sure, nothing really has.

No he is sub-TPM Kenobi, and for that reason, he sucks

Nah, he is around DE Sheev level

Aye. But "levels" aren't really static anyway and both characters have changed a lot since the early 2000s.

In all seriousness, he's more powerful than TPM Maul:

In technical skill, I would say that Maul is just as good, if not better than Vader, holistically speaking because Maul is one of "most skilled," "deadliest," "most dangerous," "most highly trained" and "most efficiently trained" Sith in history who trains brutally and religiously nearly every single day, practises additionally in Jar Kai and saberstaff fighting, and most uniquely Teras Kasi. But Vader's Force advantage is greater.

Latham laying down the wank

Latham2000 wrote:In all seriousness, he's more powerful than TPM Maul:

In technical skill, I would say that Maul is just as good, if not better than Vader, holistically speaking because Maul is one of "most skilled," "deadliest," "most dangerous," "most highly trained" and "most efficiently trained" Sith in history who trains brutally and religiously nearly every single day, practises additionally in Jar Kai and saberstaff fighting, and most uniquely Teras Kasi. But Vader's Force advantage is greater.

That could be referring to pre-suit Vader, though, given it talks about Sidious recruiting more powerful apprentices.

Azronger wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:In all seriousness, he's more powerful than TPM Maul:

In technical skill, I would say that Maul is just as good, if not better than Vader, holistically speaking because Maul is one of "most skilled," "deadliest," "most dangerous," "most highly trained" and "most efficiently trained" Sith in history who trains brutally and religiously nearly every single day, practises additionally in Jar Kai and saberstaff fighting, and most uniquely Teras Kasi. But Vader's Force advantage is greater.

That could be referring to pre-suit Vader, though, given it talks about Sidious recruiting more powerful apprentices.

The text isn't limiting Vader to any specific period, the same page mentions Vader hurling Sidious to his first death, so it's more than likely including suited Vader.

HOT TAKE: Vader is above Dooku

SithSauce wrote:HOT TAKE: Vader is above Dooku

I can buy that because it themetically makes sense for Palpatine's apprentices to be more powerful to their predecessors because let's not forget that SW is poetic.

The text says Dooku is replaced with a more powerful replacement. Because of both dating (he’s replaced directly by pre-suit Vader, not suit Vader. Palpatine is gravely disappointed with suit Vader per a bajillion quotes, and suit Vader doesn’t get particularly decent until decades later) and default reasoning (we would assume the quote is referring to the most powerful default iteration of Vader, not all iterations of Vader. Same logic applies for most powerful quotes not applying to circumstantial amps, or how if Maul was generally said to be ”more powerful” than X, we wouldn’t assume it’s referring to spider Maul), the quote can’t be attributed to suit Vader. I don’t think the appeal to intent works considering the intent of a random DeAgostini magazine is totally irrelevant. Their ideas represent .05% of Vader and Maul’s overall sources. If it’s not written directly into the continuity, I see no reason to care what they think.

no it isn't he is way above that level 

canon vader? closer to yoda that he was in legends

legends vader? below rots titans slightly above windu and dooku 

pre suit vader? KFV in the same tier as rots sidious

DarthAnt66 wrote:The text says Dooku is replaced with a more powerful replacement. Because of both dating (he’s replaced directly by pre-suit Vader, not suit Vader. Palpatine is gravely disappointed with suit Vader per a bajillion quotes, and suit Vader doesn’t get particularly decent until decades later) and default reasoning (we would assume the quote is referring to the most powerful default iteration of Vader, not all iterations of Vader. Same logic applies for most powerful quotes not applying to circumstantial amps, or how if Maul was generally said to be ”more powerful” than X, we wouldn’t assume it’s referring to spider Maul), the quote can’t be attributed to suit Vader. I don’t think the appeal to intent works considering the intent of a random DeAgostini magazine is totally irrelevant. Their ideas represent .05% of Vader and Maul’s overall sources. If it’s not written directly into the continuity, I see no reason to care what they think.

The text isn't referring to Vader as of the time he replaced Dooku though. In fact, it doesn't even specify any time periods. It just says that Sidious replaced Maul with even more powerful apprentices, starting with Dooku and continuing with Vader, the latter of whom is mentioned as also being Dooku's replacement, which goes without saying. I do agree that it's not sugguesting the "Vader as of his entire career is more powerful than TPM Maul" interpretation because it isn't remotely hinted at, but bringing up Sidious's disappointment with Vader doesn't help your argument because the same can be said for Maul given that Sidious has expressed disappointment with how Maul basically gave Kenobi the victory in Episode 1 Journal: Darth Maul, so the concept that Vader is more powerful than Maul isn't mutually exclusive with him being a disappointment, because Maul was also a disappointment.

Looking at the page itself, the most reasonable interpretation is that the it's specifically referring to OT Vader because the exact same page has a sidenote talking about Vader betraying Sidious by throwing him to his death in Return of the Jedi, and there's an image of Sidious while he has been hurled by Vader.

Oh man, here we go again.

DISCLAIMER: The majority of users here will not like this answer. It will also probably be overly snarky for my own tastes.

Vader's intended power level was inferior to TPM Obi-Wan in 1999 and superior to RotS Anakin in 2013. Material published prior to 1999 had Vader as a successful Jedi hunter, but Lucas never cared about the EU. In order to justify the better choreography, he decided that the PT Jedi were going to be better fighters than the OT Jedi because Vader was a half-robot cripple, Kenobi was an old man who never practiced and Luke only had minimal training:

George Lucas, Star Wars Episode I: Fights Featurette wrote:We've actually never seen real Jedi at work, we've only seen crippled half-droid half-men and young boys that have learned from these old people. So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing.

George Lucas, The Making of Episode I: The Phantom Menace. wrote:We'd seen old men, young boys, and characters who were half-droid, but we'd never seen a Jedi in his prime. I wanted to do that with a fight that was faster and more dynamic – and we were able to pull that off.

John Knoll, lead visual effects supervisor for the PT wrote:It wasn’t lost on me that all throughout the original trilogy you’ve never seen Jedi at their prime fighting. You saw Obi-Wan versus Darth Vader; Darth Vader now kind of getting up there in age. In Empire, it’s Luke who’s a kid who’s never really done this before, has just sort of started his training, fighting against Vader who is not really going at him particularly hard. Now you go to a situation where you have two Jedi that are in their prime against this baddie that is supposed to be also at his prime, just going at it. It was clear that the choreography had to be something really very dramatic and special because the expectations would be pretty high for this.

The people at Lucasfilm, including Pablo Hidalgo and Dave Filoni, adhered to this viewpoint:

Pablo Hidalgo, Star Wars Insider #72 wrote:For those craving a more specific explanation, keep in mind that Lucas has said that we'd never seen true Jedi fighting in the original trilogy. In other words, the skill and power that Anakin shows as a young man is greater than what we see in the classic films. As Vader, Anakin is more machine than man, and being a half-droid construct has seriously hampered his lightsaber prowess. Luke, though not as skilful as the young Jedi of the prequels, is still a formidable opponent, and he is very strong in the Force.

Dave Filoni to IGN wrote:Because when I was a kid, the Jedi were a much bigger mystery than they are now. We never really saw one except Obi-Wan, and he was old. And then we got to meet Yoda, but he was old. And Luke, let's face it, he was never really the best. I have a notion that anyone on the Council could really kick his butt.

 
Now, many will try to convince themselves that Lucas was only referring to speed, even though Pablo Hidalgo explained that Lucas was referring to "skill and power". They will also argue that Hidalgo himself was referring to a version of Anakin that we hadn't even seen yet, because that's clearly what the fans would think back then and because Hidalgo's logic clearly wouldn't apply to AOTC Anakin too. Mental gymnastics aside, we all know deep down that, back then, Word of God (which has thankfully been banished from Disney canon) established that TPM Obi-Wan and AOTC Anakin were both "real jedi", unlike the less skilled Luke and Vader. Counterfeit skeptics will of course disregard Filoni and Knoll, because it's not like they had direct input from George (!).

So the EU was fleshing out the Clone Wars era. But then came RotS, and there was a twenty IU-years gap to fill with new stories. It kinda didn't make sense for Vader to be a "flunky" that couldn't beat the remaining Jedi. So George had to retcon his own statement and bring Vader's power up:

George Lucas to Rolling Stone wrote:From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku.

Of course, he wasn't referring to Vader being on par with Maul and Dooku. Clearly most people would think he only meant that Vader was inferior to Sidious. Although George explicitly said that Vader "wasn't as strong as the Emperor", people wouldn't understand unless George also compared Vader to Maul/Dooku. People would likely know that "cripples", "old men" and untrained "boys" were still better than most of the "real Jedi", but not that.

But wait, if Vader is now on par with Maul and Dooku, how could an untrained farmboy contend with him? Well, training isn't that important anymore. The Force is all about mindset, isn't it? Also, Luke and Vader are kinda iconic characters, so let's make stories like Purge, Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader or The Force Unleashed showcasing Vader as a badass. Hidalgo had claimed in 2003 that Vader and Luke < AOTC Anakin, but that's not stopping him from writing Head-to-head (2010) explaining that Vader would beat post-RotS Yoda and Luke would beat RotS Anakin, nor is stopping Jedi Battles (2013) from stating that ANH Vader was "even stronger" than his Mustafar self. Filoni said that anyone in the Council would kick Luke's ass, but, after the canon split, that's not stopping him from saying that the Grand Inquisitor is "almost like Ventress" as a fighter.


Some people will keep on trying to reconcile feats and statements without acknowledging Vader's evolution, just like they cling to "never retconned by G-Canon" nonsense like "Vader is a 4, Ben is a 6". They will conflate EU Windu with Lucas' Windu when they are completely different scaling-wise. They will pretend like OCW meshes well with TCW and Grievous' character is the same. They will say NJO Luke is a jobber to justify pretty much all of his fights. They will pretend like showings from the Old Republic era, OCW and TFU are in line with showings from Lucas' universe. And they will never realize that this mess is way more inconsistent that anything from Disney canon. But YOU know better.

Rohirrim wrote:Oh man, here we go again.

DISCLAIMER: The majority of users here will not like this answer. It will also probably be overly snarky for my own tastes.

Vader's intended power level was inferior to TPM Obi-Wan in 1999 and superior to RotS Anakin in 2013. Material published prior to 1999 had Vader as a successful Jedi hunter, but Lucas never cared about the EU. In order to justify the better choreography, he decided that the PT Jedi were going to be better fighters than the OT Jedi because Vader was a half-robot cripple, Kenobi was an old man who never practiced and Luke only had minimal training:

George Lucas, Star Wars Episode I: Fights Featurette wrote:We've actually never seen real Jedi at work, we've only seen crippled half-droid half-men and young boys that have learned from these old people. So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing.

George Lucas, The Making of Episode I: The Phantom Menace. wrote:We'd seen old men, young boys, and characters who were half-droid, but we'd never seen a Jedi in his prime. I wanted to do that with a fight that was faster and more dynamic – and we were able to pull that off.

John Knoll, lead visual effects supervisor for the PT wrote:It wasn’t lost on me that all throughout the original trilogy you’ve never seen Jedi at their prime fighting. You saw Obi-Wan versus Darth Vader; Darth Vader now kind of getting up there in age. In Empire, it’s Luke who’s a kid who’s never really done this before, has just sort of started his training, fighting against Vader who is not really going at him particularly hard. Now you go to a situation where you have two Jedi that are in their prime against this baddie that is supposed to be also at his prime, just going at it. It was clear that the choreography had to be something really very dramatic and special because the expectations would be pretty high for this.

The people at Lucasfilm, including Pablo Hidalgo and Dave Filoni, adhered to this viewpoint:

Pablo Hidalgo, Star Wars Insider #72 wrote:For those craving a more specific explanation, keep in mind that Lucas has said that we'd never seen true Jedi fighting in the original trilogy. In other words, the skill and power that Anakin shows as a young man is greater than what we see in the classic films. As Vader, Anakin is more machine than man, and being a half-droid construct has seriously hampered his lightsaber prowess. Luke, though not as skilful as the young Jedi of the prequels, is still a formidable opponent, and he is very strong in the Force.

Dave Filoni to IGN wrote:Because when I was a kid, the Jedi were a much bigger mystery than they are now. We never really saw one except Obi-Wan, and he was old. And then we got to meet Yoda, but he was old. And Luke, let's face it, he was never really the best. I have a notion that anyone on the Council could really kick his butt.

 
Now, many will try to convince themselves that Lucas was only referring to speed, even though Pablo Hidalgo explained that Lucas was referring to "skill and power". They will also argue that Hidalgo himself was referring to a version of Anakin that we hadn't even seen yet, because that's clearly what the fans would think back then and because Hidalgo's logic clearly wouldn't apply to AOTC Anakin too. Mental gymnastics aside, we all know deep down that, back then, Word of God (which has thankfully been banished from Disney canon) established that TPM Obi-Wan and AOTC Anakin were both "real jedi", unlike the less skilled Luke and Vader. Counterfeit skeptics will of course disregard Filoni and Knoll, because it's not like they had direct input from George (!).

So the EU was fleshing out the Clone Wars era. But then came RotS, and there was a twenty IU-years gap to fill with new stories. It kinda didn't make sense for Vader to be a "flunky" that couldn't beat the remaining Jedi. So George had to retcon his own statement and bring Vader's power up:

George Lucas to Rolling Stone wrote:From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku.

Of course, he wasn't referring to Vader being on par with Maul and Dooku. Clearly most people would think he only meant that Vader was inferior to Sidious. Although George explicitly said that Vader "wasn't as strong as the Emperor", people wouldn't understand unless George also compared Vader to Maul/Dooku. People would likely know that "cripples", "old men" and untrained "boys" were still better than most of the "real Jedi", but not that.

But wait, if Vader is now on par with Maul and Dooku, how could an untrained farmboy contend with him? Well, training isn't that important anymore. The Force is all about mindset, isn't it? Also, Luke and Vader are kinda iconic characters, so let's make stories like Purge, Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader or The Force Unleashed showcasing Vader as a badass. Hidalgo had claimed in 2003 that Vader and Luke < AOTC Anakin, but that's not stopping him from writing Head-to-head (2010) explaining that Vader would beat post-RotS Yoda and Luke would beat RotS Anakin, nor is stopping Jedi Battles (2013) from stating that ANH Vader was "even stronger" than his Mustafar self. Filoni said that anyone in the Council would kick Luke's ass, but, after the canon split, that's not stopping him from saying that the Grand Inquisitor is "almost like Ventress" as a fighter.


Some people will keep on trying to reconcile feats and statements without acknowledging Vader's evolution, just like they cling to "never retconned by G-Canon" nonsense like "Vader is a 4, Ben is a 6". They will conflate EU Windu with Lucas' Windu when they are completely different scaling-wise. They will pretend like OCW meshes well with TCW and Grievous' character is the same. They will say NJO Luke is a jobber to justify pretty much all of his fights. They will pretend like showings from the Old Republic era, OCW and TFU are in line with showings from Lucas' universe. And they will never realize that this mess is way more inconsistent that anything from Disney canon. But YOU know better.

interesting take on things. kudos. ngl tho, it sounds like a war propaganda towards the end.

ANH Vader, before his huge growth between ANH and ESB, is TPM Maul level in skill but his inferior in speed, agility, mobility, etc. He's more powerful. 

ESB and ROTJ Vader are probably superior in every respect.

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:interesting take on things. kudos. ngl tho, it sounds like a war propaganda towards the end.

lol, you might be right 

BoD wrote:ANH Vader, before his huge growth between ANH and ESB, is TPM Maul level in skill but his inferior in speed, agility, mobility, etc. He's more powerful. 

ESB and ROTJ Vader are probably superior in every respect.

not to be wanky or anything, but there is enough information given to us that could make it seem that ROTJ vader can stomp ANH vader

not to be wanky or anything, but there is enough information given to us that could make it seem that ROTJ vader can stomp ANH vader

I'm not going to give my thoughts on this for now.

BoD wrote:

not to be wanky or anything, but there is enough information given to us that could make it seem that ROTJ vader can stomp ANH vader

I'm not going to give my thoughts on this for now.

this when i need ISV to help me wank.. i mean, to help me state the obvious

Rohirrim wrote:Oh man, here we go again.

DISCLAIMER: The majority of users here will not like this answer. It will also probably be overly snarky for my own tastes.

Vader's intended power level was inferior to TPM Obi-Wan in 1999 and superior to RotS Anakin in 2013. Material published prior to 1999 had Vader as a successful Jedi hunter, but Lucas never cared about the EU. In order to justify the better choreography, he decided that the PT Jedi were going to be better fighters than the OT Jedi because Vader was a half-robot cripple, Kenobi was an old man who never practiced and Luke only had minimal training:

George Lucas, Star Wars Episode I: Fights Featurette wrote:We've actually never seen real Jedi at work, we've only seen crippled half-droid half-men and young boys that have learned from these old people. So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing.

George Lucas, The Making of Episode I: The Phantom Menace. wrote:We'd seen old men, young boys, and characters who were half-droid, but we'd never seen a Jedi in his prime. I wanted to do that with a fight that was faster and more dynamic – and we were able to pull that off.

John Knoll, lead visual effects supervisor for the PT wrote:It wasn’t lost on me that all throughout the original trilogy you’ve never seen Jedi at their prime fighting. You saw Obi-Wan versus Darth Vader; Darth Vader now kind of getting up there in age. In Empire, it’s Luke who’s a kid who’s never really done this before, has just sort of started his training, fighting against Vader who is not really going at him particularly hard. Now you go to a situation where you have two Jedi that are in their prime against this baddie that is supposed to be also at his prime, just going at it. It was clear that the choreography had to be something really very dramatic and special because the expectations would be pretty high for this.

The people at Lucasfilm, including Pablo Hidalgo and Dave Filoni, adhered to this viewpoint:

Pablo Hidalgo, Star Wars Insider #72 wrote:For those craving a more specific explanation, keep in mind that Lucas has said that we'd never seen true Jedi fighting in the original trilogy. In other words, the skill and power that Anakin shows as a young man is greater than what we see in the classic films. As Vader, Anakin is more machine than man, and being a half-droid construct has seriously hampered his lightsaber prowess. Luke, though not as skilful as the young Jedi of the prequels, is still a formidable opponent, and he is very strong in the Force.

Dave Filoni to IGN wrote:Because when I was a kid, the Jedi were a much bigger mystery than they are now. We never really saw one except Obi-Wan, and he was old. And then we got to meet Yoda, but he was old. And Luke, let's face it, he was never really the best. I have a notion that anyone on the Council could really kick his butt.

 
Now, many will try to convince themselves that Lucas was only referring to speed, even though Pablo Hidalgo explained that Lucas was referring to "skill and power". They will also argue that Hidalgo himself was referring to a version of Anakin that we hadn't even seen yet, because that's clearly what the fans would think back then and because Hidalgo's logic clearly wouldn't apply to AOTC Anakin too. Mental gymnastics aside, we all know deep down that, back then, Word of God (which has thankfully been banished from Disney canon) established that TPM Obi-Wan and AOTC Anakin were both "real jedi", unlike the less skilled Luke and Vader. Counterfeit skeptics will of course disregard Filoni and Knoll, because it's not like they had direct input from George (!).

So the EU was fleshing out the Clone Wars era. But then came RotS, and there was a twenty IU-years gap to fill with new stories. It kinda didn't make sense for Vader to be a "flunky" that couldn't beat the remaining Jedi. So George had to retcon his own statement and bring Vader's power up:

George Lucas to Rolling Stone wrote:From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku.

Of course, he wasn't referring to Vader being on par with Maul and Dooku. Clearly most people would think he only meant that Vader was inferior to Sidious. Although George explicitly said that Vader "wasn't as strong as the Emperor", people wouldn't understand unless George also compared Vader to Maul/Dooku. People would likely know that "cripples", "old men" and untrained "boys" were still better than most of the "real Jedi", but not that.

But wait, if Vader is now on par with Maul and Dooku, how could an untrained farmboy contend with him? Well, training isn't that important anymore. The Force is all about mindset, isn't it? Also, Luke and Vader are kinda iconic characters, so let's make stories like Purge, Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader or The Force Unleashed showcasing Vader as a badass. Hidalgo had claimed in 2003 that Vader and Luke < AOTC Anakin, but that's not stopping him from writing Head-to-head (2010) explaining that Vader would beat post-RotS Yoda and Luke would beat RotS Anakin, nor is stopping Jedi Battles (2013) from stating that ANH Vader was "even stronger" than his Mustafar self. Filoni said that anyone in the Council would kick Luke's ass, but, after the canon split, that's not stopping him from saying that the Grand Inquisitor is "almost like Ventress" as a fighter.


Some people will keep on trying to reconcile feats and statements without acknowledging Vader's evolution, just like they cling to "never retconned by G-Canon" nonsense like "Vader is a 4, Ben is a 6". They will conflate EU Windu with Lucas' Windu when they are completely different scaling-wise. They will pretend like OCW meshes well with TCW and Grievous' character is the same. They will say NJO Luke is a jobber to justify pretty much all of his fights. They will pretend like showings from the Old Republic era, OCW and TFU are in line with showings from Lucas' universe. And they will never realize that this mess is way more inconsistent that anything from Disney canon. But YOU know better.

Interesting take but what about the 20% less powerful than Sidious quote?

The Witness wrote:Interesting take but what about the 20% less powerful than Sidious quote?

He said that in 2005 so it's around the same time he compared him to Maul/Dooku, which makes sense. TPM Kenobi and AotC Anakin probably wouldn't be as strong as 80% of the Emperor.

DISCLAIMER: The majority of users here will not like this answer. It will also probably be overly snarky for my own tastes.

You can say that again.