Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda

Force power is directly correlated with dueling via augmentation.

I'm saying the quotes are referring to Anakin as a Jedi, as his lightside self

Lightside Anakin is an 8, darkside Anakin is a 9.

As I said, the quotes are making a distinction between lightside Anakin and darkside Anakin, regardless of if he's a Jedi.

This makes Anakin, in effect, a Jedi Master, a rank that Anakin, with his unprecedented power in the Force, feels has been long overdue.
- Star Wars Miniatures: Ultimate Missions: Revenge of the Sith

The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.
-Revenge of the Sith

Because Gillard called Jedi Anakin an 8.

If he was referring to Zonakin as a tier 8, that would literally make no sense.

You wrote:they all refer to Jedi Anakin, who isn't drawing on the darkside.

"most powerful" don't always refer to actualized power.

Give me sources which explicitly say Anakin as a Jedi is > Yoda or Windu in actualized power.

- Revenge of the Sith wrote:"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger."

Revenge of the Sith wrote:Most of them couldn't hide what they're thinking from a brain-damaged blindworm, let alone the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy."

Force Collection wrote:Anakin Skywalker's rise to power was astonishing. He went from being a slave on Tatooine to one of the most powerful Jedi ever.

ROTS Movie Story Book wrote:Many years from now, Luke and Leia Skywalker, offspring of the most powerful Jedi who ever lived, would understand their true destiny

Nick Gillard - Episode III wrote:"Anakin's style has changed completely between Episode II and Episode III. He now no longer cares. He knows he's unbeatable. He's far more dangerous than anybody in the universe."

Official Figurine Collection wrote:Anakin Skywalker was the most powerful Jedi the galaxy had ever known . . . Anakin was also peerless in combat, invincible against any opponent.

Firstly, many people, including Kenobi himself scale over the theta storm feat since it happened 2 years prior to ROTS.

Because every single one of them has better feats than Drallig?

Bringing up game Drallig is meaningless since he doesn't exist in continuity anyway, and he didn't ragdoll KFV.

- Leland Chee, LLP continuity database admin, Dec. 2005 - posts from the \"Holocron database continuity questions" thread at the StarWars.com forums wrote:”...continuity ”C” canon which is pretty much everything else. ” By everything else I mean EVERYthing else. Novels, comics, junior novels, videogames, trading card games, roleplaying games, toys, websites, television. As I've mentioned earlier, any contradictions that arise are dealt on a case-by-case.

This has been our general approach to continuity since we began using the Holocron database to track it."

In potential power, not actualized power lol.

I know you're going to bring up that "unparalled force power" Jedi temple accolade and say it applies to Sidious and Yoda, when it is clearly only talking about the Jedi in the temple.

Lucas himself even implied Anakin could not have beaten Sidious in ROTS, he said "If Anakin hadn't got all beaten up, he could have beat the Emperor." Meaning post Mustafar.

George Lucas wrote:”Vader would’ve become infinitely more powerful if he hadn’t ended up his suit, if he hadn’t become half man, half machine which diminishes his powers considerably, which were the powers the Emperor has

Ok yeh but it is unclear when he became a 9, it is entirely possible and even likely it was during his "Zonakin" state, seeing as how he handled Windu in the ROTS Video Game, so it looks pretty likely he became a 9 on the invisible hand

Yes but nothing suggests the tier system alone factors in Augmentation, but even so nothing changes

that is literally your head canon, they just refer to Anakin, Anakin is an 8 at the beginning and becomes a 9 very likely during his fight with Dooku where he unlocks new ability, all quotes referring to Anakin's power are referring to Anakin as a Jedi and would not exclude his dark side moments, else Mace's performance against Sidious would also not be factored in, unless u wanna argue Windu is a 10 which he clearly isn't, you cant exclude people from quotes because they were using the darkside

Debatable when he became a 9 but you were arguing that All Anakins most powerful quotes refer to Anakin when he wasn't using the darkside, no they just refer to Anakins power, the notion that all those quotes exclude Anakins darkside moments (which he has many of) is just your head canon

As I said, the quotes are making a distinction between lightside Anakin and darkside Anakin, regardless of if he's a Jedi.

no they aren't lol, there is no distinction

This makes Anakin, in effect, a Jedi Master, a rank that Anakin, with his unprecedented power in the Force, feels has been long overdue.
- Star Wars Miniatures: Ultimate Missions: Revenge of the Sith

This is Anakin Skywalker:

The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.
-Revenge of the Sith

these are two examples of the supremacy quotes you are claiming exclude Anakin's Darkside moments, show me where the distinction is.

keep in mind there is a difference between Anakin just tapping into the darkside and Anakin when he was a Sith, is it possible you are confusing the two? because they are not really the same power level, for example KFV would still be more powerful than Zonakin or any other time Anakin tapped into the darkside

No he didn't he said Anakin was an 8 at the beginning of the Movie

You were originally talking about Anakin's supremacy quotes not just Gillards tier system, my response was according to that

in response to the Anakin > /= Yoda Supremacy Quotes, as ive shown above they make NO distinction between Anakin's light and dark side, just Anakin's base power which would include his darkside bursts

Yes they do, if it means potential it will say the word 'potential' there is no basis for that

Ok, well there's the two above that I provided,
Then...

- Revenge of the Sith wrote:"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger."

Revenge of the Sith wrote:Most of them couldn't hide what they're thinking from a brain-damaged blindworm, let alone the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy."

Force Collection wrote:Anakin Skywalker's rise to power was astonishing. He went from being a slave on Tatooine to one of the most powerful Jedi ever.

ROTS Movie Story Book wrote:Many years from now, Luke and Leia Skywalker, offspring of the most powerful Jedi who ever lived, would understand their true destiny

Nick Gillard - Episode III wrote:"Anakin's style has changed completely between Episode II and Episode III. He now no longer cares. He knows he's unbeatable. He's far more dangerous than anybody in the universe."

Official Figurine Collection wrote:Anakin Skywalker was the most powerful Jedi the galaxy had ever known . . . Anakin was also peerless in combat, invincible against any opponent.

and that should be enough to convince you of Anakin's supremacy and rough parity with Yoda

Well if Anakin can do it then and Yoda cant, while Anakin grows stronger and Yoda declines in those 2 years it makes the feat even more impressive, but anyway feats are meaningless when Anakin directly scales to Yoda per like 50 sources lol

Again meaningless when he scales above them all by having "Unprecedented skill with a lightsaber" and name a feat any of those B team guys have that is better than ragdolling KF, ill wait...

He does, the ROTS Video game is approved by George Lucas and is C-Canon

- Leland Chee, LLP continuity database admin, Dec. 2005 - posts from the \"Holocron database continuity questions" thread at the StarWars.com forums wrote:”...continuity ”C” canon which is pretty much everything else. ” By everything else I mean EVERYthing else. Novels, comics, junior novels, videogames, trading card games, roleplaying games, toys, websites, television. As I've mentioned earlier, any contradictions that arise are dealt on a case-by-case.

This has been our general approach to continuity since we began using the Holocron database to track it."

So yes he does, and he is Drallig's Prime iteration so we use him, plus this thread is literally about ROTS game Drallig, so idk why it is "Meaningless"
and yes he did ragdoll KF lol dueled him pushed him back blasted him out a window and knocked him on the ground and was only beaten by a cheap shot

No basis for that at all, that is your head canon once again, read it again, where does it say potential.. it doesn't

Maul was stated to have higher potential than Sidious, so that further confirms that the notion this quote is referring to potential isn't true,
"He was no longer as powerful as the Emperor" not "He could no longer be as powerful as the Emperor"

Nope, im not actually I would agree with you there, rather Sidious conceding inferiority to Vader




When he is defeated he laughs and basically says "good luck defeating Vader lol"

I don't see why that would imply he cant beat Sidious, rather he could have but no longer can seeing as he got all beaten up, this quote from Lucas should further clear up some confusion

George Lucas wrote:”Vader would’ve become infinitely more powerful if he hadn’t ended up his suit, if he hadn’t become half man, half machine which diminishes his powers considerably, which were the powers the Emperor has

Lucas clearly states Anakin lost the power the emperor had when he was burned up  

I agree, which is why I said it's unlikely for darkside Anakin (Zonakin) to be an 8, as your stance on the quotes would suggest.

Dueling is like 90% augmentation and 10% skill, it's definitely factored in.

It's not though , because before ROTS Anakin was still an 8, he only reached 9 on the IH, and then again during Knightfall.  Windu and Tiin claiming Anakin is the strongest Jedi is further backs me up since they never seen Anakin go Zonakin, so in there eyes he's still a tier 8, rendering all the Jedi Anakin>Yoda quotes contradictory to Gillard's ranking.

It's not really debatable.  He became a 9 on the IH, and then fully embraced the darkside during Knightfall cementing his place as a tier 9.

And as I said, all the supremacy quotes come before Anakin actually turned a 9 per Gillard, so they are contradictory.

They do because Anakin had never embraced the darkside like he did on the IH previously.

They are literally referring to Jedi Anakin, why would they include Anakin tapping into the darkside?

I know there's a difference, but explain to me why a quote praising Anakin's JEDI POWERS would also include his darkside powers?

Yup, but he said the difference between 8 and 9 for Anakin is the darkside.  So logically we can conclude Jedi Anakin is an 8, while darkside (Sith) Anakin is a 9.

I tied it into the Gillard system to show they were incorrect.  Claiming Jedi Anakin (who is a tier 8) is > Yoda (who is a tier 9) contradicts Gillard's system.

You haven't shown any reason why accolades praising Anakin's Jedi powers would also be praising his Sith powers.

Uh, no they don't?

Contradicted since Jedi Anakin is noted as a tier 8 by Gillard, while Yoda and Windu are 9s.

Also arguably isn't certainty.

One of the most powerful Jedi is not the same as THE most powerful Jedi.

Again, contradicted since it's solely referring to Jedi Anakin who is confirmed a tier 8.

Contradicted by GL saying Anakin could only beat Sidious post Mustafar.

Yeah no, since Jedi Anakin is confirmed a tier 8 by Gillard (which all those quotes refer too) and George saying Sith Anakin (a tier 9) could only beat Sidious post-Mustafar, implying further training.

Kenobi's opinion that Yoda can't do it isn't fact.

Secondly, Yoda didn't decline, he actually improved since he wasn't confirmed a tier 9 during AOTC (while Sidious was) and only during ROTS was he a 9.

those 50 quotes are also contradicted on the basis that Jedi Anakin is confirmed a tier 8 by G canon while Yoda is a tier 9.

Wow, you guys on this site put WAY too much emphasis on accolades.  Almost every top tier SW character has that.  Maul has those as well, guess Maul is >Yoda in sabers right?

Catching someone offguard with a ragdoll isn't the same as ripping through their force barrier and ragdolling him.

he movie being G canon overrides the game, therefore it never happened in continuity.

We're comparing non game Drallig, to the B team, and he just doesn't stack up.

He didn't dominate Anakin, he caught him off guard.

Prove to me that it doesn't refer to potential

It was only until 2012 when WoDM came out that we found out Maul had Sidious+ potential

especially since as I said, Lucas said Anakin could only beat Anakin after Mustafar.

So no basis it still isn't referring to potential

How does him saying "good luck defeating Vader" imply Vader is superior to Sidious?

That is Mr. Fantastic levels of reaching.

He purposefully said Anakin after Mustafar to make it a point that Anakin couldn't beat the Emperor on Mustafar.

iamthatguy wrote:Lucas said Anakin could only beat Anakin after Mustafar.

iamthatguy wrote:Contradicted by GL saying Anakin could only beat Sidious post Mustafar.

Lucas is saying Vader becoming "infinitely more powerful" are the powers the Emperor has, not that he had the power of the Emperor.

KFV was messing around, he doesn't have parity with Serra Keto who is a Knight yet he prolonged the fight to mock her.

Essentially Drallig abused KFV's CIS however failed to react to a saber throw and died.

Anyway. Yoda is 2 tiers above Drallig - a stomp gap - he wins.

Yoda<-8-6<-Cin Drallig 6-4 4-2 2-0

KingKopecz wrote:These answers are beginning to look like phonebooks.

Vegak wrote:Anyway. Yoda is 2 tiers above Drallig - a stomp gap - he wins.

Dooku was an 8 and Yoda was 9 in Attack of the Clones and they were still equals in force power, and Dooku still contends very well

no evidence that its not referring to that 10%

8 or not Anakin still shares rough parity with Yoda in force power, Its likely he maintains his 9 status after Zonakin anyway judging by his fight with Windu

Well it is debatable whether he remained a 9 up until his fall to the Darkside where he became an even higher 9, as I said this looks likely given his fight with Windu

Not really, a lot of the quotes are OOU and just refer to Anakin in general, meaning Anakin has rough parity with Yoda, Gillard has said Anakin > Yoda in one of the sources I provided for u in my last post anyway

He taps into the darkside multiple times, granted probably not to the extent he does on IH but the quotes themselves make no distinction and there are no contradictions anywhere, everything adds up fine

You were the one arguing that Jedi Anakin wasn't close to Yoda, or do you concede on that now ? and because Anakin tapping into the Darkside is still Jedi Anakin lol he's just tapping into the Darkside, Its refering to Anakins power in the force which includes all aspects of it, as I say, Does that mean Mace's quotes don't apply to Mace tapping into the darkside every time he uses Vapaad now ? they just refers to their general power, its simple

Yep but as I explained above its likely Anakin maintained that level 9 after IH

I never claimed they referred to his Sith powers, I claimed they would not exclude Anakin's brief dark side moments, and they make no distinction, they only refer to Anakins over all power as a Jedi

AWESOME COUNTER!!!

Show me evidence for the quotes referring to potential, the wording clearly indicated they are referring to Power he possesses

Zonakin is still a Jedi and is a 9 as you admitted, Anakin is only an 8 at the beginning, anyway its purely combat ability, Anakin beats Mace in a duel anyway so ROTS Anakin became a 9 on IH then remains a 9 and is still a Jedi, Jedi Anakin in most of ROTS is 9. 0 things are contradicted lol

Huh? how?

But it certainly works well along side his many other "most powerful Jedi" quotes

The Tier system is purley combat ability and not over all force power, that is where your whole argument falls apart cos it is based purely on that, Tier system doesn't contradict any power quotes

GL never said that, he said Anakin was no longer as powerful as the Emperor when he got burned up, those aren't the same thing

you are going in circles, and you don't understand the tier system, it does not refer to overall force power, thus contradicts nothing

0 reason not to believe him

He was never mentioned, doesn't mean he improved when all indicators show he declined, Yoda is on a slow decline since he was roughly 700, no evidence to show he improved between AOTC and ROTS, there is only theory with no evidence

again learn what the tier system actually is

well there is more than just that, watch that Video Respect thread, and Maul is on a level with Yoda in saber skill yes

I agree, but Drallig straight up tanked Vaders push then blasted him out a window, and then knocks him down on the floor again

false, it is still C-Canon, "any contradictions are dealt on a case by case", prime Drallig is Video game Drallig and we use prime iterations, furthermore this thread is literally about VG Drallig

even non game Drallig is superior to all of B team
he is the most Dangerous of the order, one of the most Vital players in the jedi order as a whole, has mastery over all 7 forms and is unparalleled with a lightsaber, Movie Drallig is one of the most powerful Jedi of the prequel era, Game Drallig is equals with Yoda, both versions of Drallig are above B team

He had the upper hand for the whole fight he bested Vader in the saber lock tanked his push and blasted him out the window, spinning his saber or not still an incredible feat for Drallig breaking Vaders force shield

I don't have to just read it lol the context is very clear, they all read, "THE most powerful not"  "could have been the most powerful"

you are the one opposing the quotes clear meaning you are the one that has to prove it!

We know from TPM material that Maul was trained as Sidious' apprentice and in true Rule of Two fashion was intended to surpass Sidious, else he wouldn't have been chosen as his apprentice, all WODM does is further confirm this

Yes... you said that, GL never even said that lol

lol, the wording is plain and simple, "He was no longer as powerful as the Emperor" not "He no longer could have been as powerful as the Emperor" that idea is silly the meaning is as clear as day lol

How does him saying "good luck defeating Vader" imply Vader is superior to Sidious?

Well after his defeat he is laughing saying Yeh good look on Vader you are gonna die basically, again that's kinda clear

  No, what is Mr. Fantastic levels of reaching is saying " He was no longer as powerful as the Emperor" and all those other Vader/Anakin quotes are referring to potential and not power LOOOL

hang on didnt you literally just say ...

iamthatguy wrote:Lucas said Anakin could only beat Anakin after Mustafar.

iamthatguy wrote:Contradicted by GL saying Anakin could only beat Sidious post Mustafar.

Huh? seems the only thing that's contradictory is you lol not any of these binding quotes

Lucas is saying Vader becoming "infinitely more powerful" are the powers the Emperor has, not that he had the power of the Emperor.

bro come on now the meaning of the quote is as clear as day, just concede, its fine

" if he hadn’t become half man, half machine which diminishes his powers considerably, which were the powers the Emperor has"
They are "his powers" which are "the powers the emperor has" he possesses the same powers/is as powerful as the emperor, that is CRYSTAL CLEAR

CuckedCurry wrote:Yoda wrecks

Yoda wasn't mentioned as being a tier 9 until ROTS, unlike Sidious who was mentioned as a tier 9 during AOTC. Also, Yoda didn't even attack Dooku offensively, Dooku was the one attacking Yoda, who dismissed his attacks.

No evidence it isn't referring to the 90% 

How does Anakin have parity with Yoda in force power

So a non Canon fight?

Cool, Lucas has said Anakin couldn't beat Sidious, who Yoda is >. Lucas>Gillard.

Not really because he's only explicitly confirmed as 9 with darkside during ROTS. Before that he's still an 8 even when tapping into the darkside, putting him below a tier 9 like Yoda.

Alright let's go with that then. So pre-ROTS Anakin who taps into the darkside is > Yoda, despite not being a tier 9. See how that doesn't work?

During Knightfall sure, but he wasn't actively using the darkside the entire time after the IH fight.

Anakin's darkside powers and sith powers are one in the same, you're playing the semantics game.

Because Lucas literally confirms Anakin couldn't have beaten Sidious during ROTS...

Jedi Anakin's powers are an 8. Zonakin is not using Jedi powers, he's tapping into the darkside.

Using a non Canon fight to support the idea that Anakin remained a tier 9 after the IH fight is a terrible argument.

Because the English language says so. Arguably implies there is still doubt, certainty is void of doubt.

And TPM Maul is one of the most powerful Sith

Combat ability and force power is one in the same. Combat ability relies on force aug. If the tiering was purely referring to dueling skill, someone like TPM Maul would be above ROTS Sidious.

"If Anakin hadn't got all beat-up, he could've beat the Emperor."
Source: Making of Revenge of the Sith

you said...

Contradicted by GL saying Anakin could only beat Sidious post Mustafar.

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How does that mean Anakin could only have beaten him post Mustafar at all, it is saying that if he never got burned up he could have beat the emperor, which he could have, he just never tried to yet, so obviously that would happen post Mustafar it it where going to happen 


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Yup, he was never mentioned as a tier 9 during AOTC, while Sidious was. Making ROTS Yoda>AOTC Yoda via Yoda going from an 8 to a 9

Cool, so you're acknowledging that it's referring to Drallig's skill right? Now prove to me Drallig has force aug rivalling any of the main characters during the PT without using the ROTS game.

And Vader would have tanked him to had he not been caught off guard.

You realize every single member of the B team has quotes like that besides the mastery over 7 forms right?

Breaking an unsuspecting opponents force shield isn't impressive in the same way landing a punch on someone who isn't suspecting it isn't impressive.

And what is there to suggest "the most powerful" is referring to his actual power, instead of his potential. 

I have, since Jedi Anakin is a tier 8, which puts him below Yoda and Mace.

Fair enough, though it still doesn't mean Anakin was equal with Sidious, just that he was closer to Sidious than he was to someone like TPM Maul or ROTS Dooku, which I agree with.

No that is wrong, read the quote again until it goes in, the wording couldn't be any clearer, HE WAS NO LONGER AS POWERFUL AS THE EMPEROR MEANS EXACTLY WHAT IT SAYS 

Are you reading what you're posting? "He no longer could have been as powerful as the Emperor" clearly means he isn't as powerful as the Emperor, but he is approaching.

lol, the wording is plain and simple, "He was no longer as powerful as the Emperor" not "He no longer could have been as powerful as the Emperor" that idea is silly the meaning is as clear as day lol

Again, how does that imply Vader is superior to Sidious. You're acting like Sidious wouldn't stomp Obi-Wan.

I mean, your own quote disagrees with you lol. It clearly says Vader could no longer be as powerful as the Emperor, meaning he hadn't reached that level yet.

you wrote:So no basis it still isn't referring to potential

I wrote:

He was no longer as powerful as the Emperor" not "He no longer could have been as powerful as the Emperor"

As I said above, the "were the powers the Emperor has" is referring to the "infinitely more powerful", which you so coincidentally cut out.

I'm not the one sourcing quotes which goes against their argument...

R E A D !

Ok doesn't mean he is not a 9, this is where we look to other sources to see that he is described as the best duelist in the order, seems pretty clear to me 

Well... seems pretty damn obvious seeing as we know it is only referring to combat ability 

Its Lucas approved, much like the Maul vs Vader fight that did not happen in the timeline  we use it because it is supposed to show what would happen if those two fought, same thing here.

Lucas and Gillard are both G-Canon, don't know where on earth you got the idea that Yoda > Sidious, quite the opposite actually and Lucas never said that actually 

I've already answered ALL of this stop going in circles 

Oh dear, no, i never said pre ROTS Anakin was a 9 did I. Also THE TIER SYSTEM IS COMBAT ABILITY ONLY SO HAS NO BEARING ON OVERALL POWER LEVELS 

Maul and Sidious would be in the same tier in TPM Pre Boost, but it does not mean they are as powerful as each other 

No but it looks likely that he remained a 9 afterwards up until Knightfall when he became a higher 9

I wouldnt even call his Zonakin powers his "darkside" or "sith" powers, he just taps into his emotions, but regardless, you claimed that he is no longer a Jedi when he uses these emotions, that is stupid

I swear you are just shitting Lucas quotes out your ass at this point, show me that quote!

It is not "non canon" as I have shown you already and yes he taps into the darkside/uses his emotions, it does not make him not a jedi which you implied 

In this Case "Arguably" being the most powerful Jedi, is certainly an implication of parity to Yoda

He is, apart from Sidious and Plagueis obviously 

Even if it includes force Aug which I never said it didn't, it still would not be entirely indicative of ones full power only a rough measure, especially seeing as there can be different levels of each tier, Anakin being an 8 does not preclude parity with Yoda in full power, Yoda seems to be on the low end of 9 anyway seeing as Sidious and KF are both more powerful and still 9s, see what Im getting at 

you said...

Contradicted by GL saying Anakin could only beat Sidious post Mustafar.

How does that mean Anakin could only have beaten him post Mustafar at all, it is saying that if he never got burned up he could have beat the emperor, which he could have, he just never tried to yet, so obviously that would happen post Mustafar it it where going to happen 

Prove Yoda was an 8 and not just a 9 all along especially seeing as its obvious he was on a decline, literally all the evidence points to him being 9 

Well if you watch ep3 Drallig lasts longer to KF who is = to if not slightly > Sidious, than any of the B team last to Sidious, also being one of the most "dangerous" of the order is a very clear indication of superiority 

Possibly, but if you keep watching Drallig knocks Vader down again and beats him when they are forced into a saber lock

Or the most dangerous of the order quote, id say that coupled with the 7 forms mastery solidly puts him above 

Ok well what about overpowering Vader in sabers and kicking him sending him flying? and still I don't know if you even watched the cutscene but Drallig Tanks Vaders push, if he was not on a level with him no way could he do that 

The literal wording of the quote, can you read, its clear as day mate 

No you haven't you are transfixed on the idea that the tier system is all out power, Mace even admits he is inferior to Anakin

No that is wrong, read the quote again until it goes in, the wording couldn't be any clearer, HE WAS NO LONGER AS POWERFUL AS THE EMPEROR MEANS EXACTLY WHAT IT SAYS 

oh dear, are you reading what I am saying, read that again please 

The one in bold is what Lucas said, the one in ital is what I am saying he is not saying not "He no longer could have been as powerful as the Emperor" the context of the quote again is very clear, I'm starting to think you don't know how to read lol

Bro just read it it is very clear AGAIN. also there are circumstances surrounding Kenobi's victory

HAHAHAHAHA why would MY quote that I used to show you what Lucas was not saying have any canonical bearing.

just concede at this point imo LOL

No that doesn't even make any sense he lost the power the emperor had, why would that refer to infinitely more powerful, the infinitely more powerful quote is saying he would be infinitely more powerful than the emperor, so why would infinitely more powerful be the power the emperor had HAHAHA

Im not the one not reading anything properly, this is the quote "He was no longer as powerful as the Emperor" N O T  T H I S "He no longer could have been as powerful as the Emperor" 

R E A D !

Yoda disarmed Sidious in the duel

and overpowered his force lightning.

Why does this indicate superiority? If we treat Lightsaber duels as analogous to real-life swordplay it doesn't, as we know inferior combatants can disarm superior ones - provided they're closely matched - due to duels being subject to things like someone making a small error at the wrong moment and losing because of it. You can't prove that this would happen if they fought again and again.

Their energies mutually overloaded and blasted them both back: Yoda never "overpowered" anything.

KingofBlades wrote:Dooku has never been given a rating on the gillard scale outside of Gillard emails. And given Gillard is notoriously inconsistent outside of official sources, its validity is dubious to say the least

KingofBlades wrote:Why

It does actually, since he wasn't mentioned as a 9 during AOTC while Sidious was.

Yup, you haven't proven in anyway how Anakin is on par with Yoda in anyway.

Then I would agree that KFV could beat a tired Windu.

Yoda disarmed Sidious in the duel and overpowered his force lightning.

You haven't answered it sufficiently.  You can't have Jedi Anakin, an 8, above ROTS Yoda who's a 9.

You're claiming Jedi Anakin is a 9, which by default would also make pre-ROTS Anakin a 9.

Again, combat ability is synonymous with overall power levels.

Don't know what you're trying to accomplish with this but the gap between TPM Sidious/TPM Maul is certainly bigger than the gap between Yoda/Anakin. 

looks like? Where is your definite proof?  The Anakin Windu AU fight would also be KFV not Jedi Anakin, so you can't use that either.

Darkside powers and sith powers are one in the same, Sith are just an organization that utilize the darkside.

I said Anakin when using his emotions isn't using his Jedi powers (i.e. Focus) and instead, using Sith ways to channel his power (i.e. Anger).  Hence why the "strongest jedi" quotes are incorrect, since they refer to an Anakin that is an 8 per Gillard.

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith

Yoda and amped Windu>unhindered MFV>KFV>ROTS Jedi Anakin

Ok, I fail to see how that debunks anything I said?  I agree Anakin is one of the most powerful Jedi, however arguably isn't certainty, therefore he is not above Yoda.  That's also completely disregarding Gillard's tiers which overrides the quote anyway.

Moreover, we know IU opinions aren't meant to be taken seriously, otherwise Grievous>Yoda per Windu himself.

No, he really isn't.

Being in a different tier actually does preclude parity, since according to Gillard there are huge gaps in the tier.  Yoda is also more powerful than Sidious, via overpowering his lightning, and KFV, or better yet, unhindered MFV is confirmed below Yoda, amped Windu, and Sidious.

 he disarmed him yes as I said he is probably a slightly better duelist, but Sidious is confirmed in multiple sources to be more powerful than Yoda, not only that but it was Lucas' intention to have Yoda be defeated

Because if Lucas meant Anakin with his present power on Mustafar unhindered (before Kenobi and Padme arrived) he would have said before he was burned, not after the fact if he won the fight against Kenobi.  He didn't, therefore he clearly meant Anakin wasn't powerful enough at the time to beat Sidious.

Prove Yoda was on the decline?? 

Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter wrote:Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council.

Thats is AU meaning non Canon in Legends.  I am referring to Legends, non video game, Drallig, vs other members of the B team.  I see you keep falling back on the videogame, you must've realized that Drallig has no feats that put him on Fisto, Kolar, Tiin level.

LMAO, you seriously have no idea what you're talking about do you?? Vader is so much stronger than Drallig that Drallig literally falls over from the bladelock, Drallig then uses a tactical move and kicks Anakin off.  He didn't overpower Anakin whatsoever.

So just statements praising his skill??      Like I said, he has nothing putting him above or even equal to the B-team.

This is getting sad.  Vader made Drallig fall over in the bladelock, that's how much stronger Vader was.  Drallig kicked the falling Vader off of him, then ran at him.  That it no way puts Drallig anywhere near KFV.

And as I've explained, countless times, Anakin would have tanked Drallig's blast as well if he had been on guard.

Show me where it says "Anakin is the most powerful Jedi in actualized power".  

Mace also says Yoda is inferior to Grievous, IU opinions aren't infallible.  In fact, they are actually the opposite.  And I've already explained how the tier system refers to overall power.

That would work, if the entire context of the quote, which you incidentally left out, wasn't referring to potential:

That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful

somebody who would be more powerful than he was

He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.

George Lucas wrote:"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe.

He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.

He could no longer be as powerful as the Emperor, what does that mean to you?  It clearly means he WASN'T as powerful as the Emperor, and he could no longer reach the Emperor's powers, since he was reduced to 80% of him.

GL wrote:there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor

Please explain to me what you think that means.  It literally says Anakin could NO LONGER HAVE BEEN AS POWERFUL, have been meaning he wasn't yet, but approaching.

this is the quote "He was no longer as powerful as the Emperor" N O T  T H I S "He no longer could have been as powerful as the Emperor"

his Anakin wank is quite simply ridiculous.  Sidious laughing and musing that Kenobi would get destroyed by Vader in no way means Vader is > Sidious.

When did I say it didn't have canonical bearing? I said your using quotes that you misinterpreted to support your belief.

"He no longer could have been as powerful as the Emperor"

This literally can't be more crystal clear.

Could have been= future

Anakin in the future could have been as powerful as the emperor, and actually double, but because of his injuries, he was limited to 80% of Sidious.

ME wrote:lol, the wording is plain and simple, "He was no longer as powerful as the Emperor" not "He no longer could have been as powerful as the Emperor" that idea is silly the meaning is as clear as day lol

Is English your first language?

Ok that was my mistake, idk why I thought you pulled a quote which said that.

However, that whole quote, which you keep taking snippets of, is referring to Skywalker potential, as in Anakin and Luke's.

"You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was

He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

Decimus wrote:Yoda stomps. Drallig failed to react to Anakin's lightsaber toss. Also much of the fight is CIS as Anakin is trying to really rub Drallig's nose in it.

Why on earth would that mean he would be an 8 tho, he was not mentioned as an 8 either and we know he is on a decline, he is not mentioned so we have to assume he is a 9 given literally all indicators suggest that 

I provided you a dozen supremacy quotes that put Anakin >/= Yoda lol. 

If you actually played the game or bothered to watch the cutscenes first then you'd know that it was not KF that beat Windu it was Jedi Anakin, nor was Windu tired due to his superconducting loop

He didn't overpower his force lightning that did not happen at all lol and I would agree Yoda is a slightly better duelist than Sidious

He is only stated as an 8 "at the beginning of the movie" not "as a Jedi" (Please read this correctly this time the ital is NOT the quote the bold is)
he also has MANY quotes over Yoda which I provided you, coupled with him beating Windu before he turned to the Darkside means he will have likely retained his status as a 9, either that or the quotes are referring to his power encompassing his moments fueled by emotion putting him >/= Yoda 
or both, either way Anakin >/= Yoda, but Zonakin is NOT KFV.

What, no it wouldn't

and no its not lol 

as it is referring to combat ability Sidious and Maul in TPM would be in the same Tier seeing as Maul is Second only Perhaps to Sidious. and yes I would agree the gap would be bigger as Anakin shares rough parity with Yoda during ROTS, although Maul is still somewhat close to Pre Boost Sidious

The fight with Windu lol, and that would NOT be KFV at all lol if anything that Anakin would be hindered he was just crying and is very conflicted at the time the Novel describes him as though he is practically torn in two 

Darkside powers and sith powers are one in the same, Sith are just an organization that utilize the darkside.

So are you saying Anakin on IH was a Sith and not a Jedi LOL he was still a Jedi, using his emotions or not, Windu uses his emotions in Vapaad, it doesnt make him not a Jedi, which you previously implied 

Again, The quotes are referring to Anakin's power as a whole, which would include these moments fueled by his emotions, the quotes make so distinction so that is a much more fitting assumption to make rather than to just dismiss the quotes and call them incorrect like you are doing, as I say wither that or he maintained his 9 status or both, dismissing quotes which you are doing is retarded

More like KFV>/=Sidious>Yoda>/=Jedi Anakin>Mace

Mace isn't competing with Sidious because he is closer to his power than Anakin (although Yoda Mace and Anakin are all on a similar level) rather he posses the tools necessary ie. Shatterpoint and Vapaad 

Well yeah in most cases I would agree but in this case it is supported by a dozen OOU accolades including Gillard himself 

I mean he is... 


not to mention nearly defeating TPM Sidious who is also confirmed as the most powerful Sith ever 

No it doesnt lol there are huge gaps in the tiers to whats to say Yoda is on the low end of 9 which looks likely anyway, Yoda is NOT more powerful than Sidious and didnt overpower his lighting, sorry have you even watched ROTS lol  he disarmed him yes as I said he is probably a slightly better duelist, but Sidious is confirmed in multiple sources to be more powerful than Yoda, not only that but it was Lucas' intention to have Yoda be defeated

No he wouldn't have that wasn't even the point he was addressing, he was expressing the huge power loss Anakin experienced when he got burned up he was never making a point of Anakin not being able to take on Sidious before he was burned.

-admittedly could not achieve a level of Telekinesis that he used to be able to do

Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter wrote:Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council.

Thats is AU meaning non Canon in Legends.  I am referring to Legends, non video game, Drallig, vs other members of the B team.  I see you keep falling back on the videogame, you must've realized that Drallig has no feats that put him on Fisto, Kolar, Tiin level.

wtf r u on about of course it is Legends, everything I mention will be Legends Canon, this is a quote for movie Drallig and Accolades > Feats lol he doesnt need better feats if he scales above them 

:lol:go watch the clip again lol, Drallig clearly leans back and kicks Vader a couple of meters, prior to this they both pushed each other back equally so they are equals if anything.

He has nothing to put him below, only things that put him above tbh, I guess Sidious isnt the most powerful sith now cOs iT iS jUsT pRaiSinG hiS pOweR, duurrr[/size]

LoL go watch it please, you thinking Anakin coming into the office is KFV and Yoda overpowered Sheevs lightning is enough to discredit anything you say regarding ROTS tbh

Show me where ANY supremacy quote EVER needs to say 'Actualized power' in order to be valid LOL 

Nobody in the Mythos has a quote directly mentioning actualized power lol its just power which is VERY clear from the context but you have already proven you are incapable of comprehending words, it is not a potential quote unless potential is noted, not the other way round

Mace also says Yoda is inferior to Grievous, IU opinions aren't infallible.  In fact, they are actually the opposite.  And I've already explained how the tier system refers to overall power.

Combat ability only tbh no bearing on raw force power at all

and when IU opinions are heavily supported by numerous OOU sources, demonstration or the person in question has high credibility then they can obviously be taken as fact 

It clearly is not lol you legit cant read can you? 

somebody who would be more powerful than he was

That is talking about Luke and Suit Vader but nice try, got nothing to do with Pre Suit Vader being sub Sidious 

it is just stating Sheev is looking for an apprentice with more potential than him. 

His ability to be twice as good as the emperor disappeared not his ability to become as powerful, he was already as powerful as Sidious
Lucas later retconned the "twice as good" with "infinitely more powerful" 

Oh ffs are you actually braindead, did you read my response to that at all that is what I wrote LUCAS NEVER SAID THAT, that is why i wrote 

what are you on about now, That was Sidious laughing to the HERO OF CORUSCANT NOT KENOBI, you clearly don't even know the sources you are referencing, so what is even the point in arguing them lol go and learn the lore first lol

and it was after Sidious' defeat at the hands of HoC that he essentially laughed and said lol good luck with Vader, literally just after he was defeated

the quotes aren't referring to potential unless potential is specified, stop using head canon with 0 basis 

all this is saying is that Sidious wanted his a apprentice to become more powerful than himself, obviously, that is how the rule of two works and Luke could become more powerful than him, Vader no longer had his potential and no longer could surpass him, but before he was burned up he was confirmed to be on his level and could have surpassed him, it is so easy to understand it is unbelievable 

Yes he can no longer become "infinitely more powerful than the Emperor" 

the fact that you are the only person on this whole site with your point of view should be an indication to you that you are wrong, just concede and stop being stubborn

And proof Yoda was on the decline?  Age argument doesn't work.

In no way have you proven they are referring to actualized power

He did, Yoda was originally being overpowered by Sidious' lightning, but he regained his footing and managed to push it back so instead of only Yoda being sent off the pod, both Sidious and Yoda were.

Yeah it is.  Sidious is so formidable in combat because of his power, his force augmentation.  Without force augmentation, Sidious would get walked all over by even the weakest Jedi masters who are at least in good physical condition.

Pre-boost Sidious blitzed TPM Maul.

He was crying before he attacked Windu, in the fight he has no remorse.

But they're not referring to Anakin as a whole lol, they specifically mention JEDI to convey that they're referring to lightside Anakin.

That's not what I'm saying at all?? I'm saying there is no difference between Sith powers and dark side powers.

they all refer to Jedi Anakin, who isn't drawing on the darkside.

Based on what? Absolutely nothing? Lucas himself literally disproves that.

And when did I disagree with that?  I'm saying he's not superior to Yoda, but he is on the same level.

and that Anakin's quotes are not referring to power but potential, which I've debunked, and you seem to agree with me now, so thanks for the concession   maybe make it a bit quicker next time instead of making yourself look a fool, no one frowns upon a concession, they frown upon retarded nonsensical stubbornness.

Ok, so I'm gonna drag this back to the thread we were arguing about Exar Kun on.  According to this, Exar Kun is sub TPM Maul.  Exar Kun, who you hold at ROTJ Sidious level, is sub TPM Maul based on this one quote.

Yeah, I have watched it, and read the novel as well. 

Doubt 

Also, Yoda can lose without being Sidious' combative inferior.  Anakin lost to Kenobi, despite the former being the combative superior of the two.

That wasn't TPM Sidious either, that was pre-TPM by 5 years, since Maul was 17 on Hypori.  TPM Sidious was capable of blitzing TPM Maul.

Yeah he was, hence why ""You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor".

If he wanted to make the point that Anakin could've beat Sidious, he would've said pre-burn, as he's addressed Anakin/Vader like that in other quotes.

Wait so you admit Anakin is on a level with Yoda and you claim Yoda is > Sidious but you dispute Anakin being able to beat Sidious 

If this is pre clone wars it's irrelevant, as Jedi experienced massive increases in power due to constant warfare.

It's not canon in Legends, since it's overriden by the movie.  It's an AU portrayal of the fight.

Literally zero proof he leans backwards.  He's still leveraging power into his blade when going down, which clearly indicates it was against his will.

False equivalence comparing Drallig's skill accolades to Sidious' power accolades.  Power contributes exponentially more to a fight than skill does.

Anakin coming into the office doesn't make him KFV, Anakin attacking Windu ferociously and embracing the darkside does.

Show me where ANY supremacy quote EVER needs to say [size=14]'Actualized power' in order to be valid LOL [/size]

Every supremacy quote actually, hence why none are taken seriously at all.  And why more established debating sites explicitly say FEATS>>>>>ACCOLADES

Lol are those sites more established for retards who cant read lol, the quotes context is very clear, literally just read please just learn how to read, there are quotes that literally say "Anakin is the most powerful jedi" that you are claiming refer to potential 

Combat ability includes force power, idk how many times I have to say this.  There's a reason heavyweight boxers don't fight featherweight boxers; even though the skill is relatively equal the heavyweight has much more POWER.

Also, Yoda can lose without being Sidious' combative inferior.  Anakin lost to Kenobi, despite the former being the combative superior of the two.

Right... so what was that part referring to Luke's potential?

So referring to potential??

I never said he directly referred to Anakin's potential

 So to line up with other Lucas quotes (the one that says Anakin cannot beat Sidious during ROTS) it's clear that Anakin's comparison to the emperor is also based upon potential.

Yup, which is what my argument is.  The quote in it's entirety is referring to potential, therefore the comparison between Anakin and Sidious is one of potential and not actualized power.

You don't lose power when your limbs get cut off.  You lose potential.  Vader's actualized power never changed.  Same way Maul never lost power after TPM, he only lost potential which was eventually restored by Talzin.

Yeah that is my fault, I'm getting used to this formatting and I thought used that as an actual quote.

When did I say Sidious was talking directly to Kenobi??  I said Sidious was musing that Kenobi would get destroyed by Vader, which in itself doesn't put Vader above Sidious.

Overruled by higher G-canon sources, one being Lucas who said MFV couldn't beat Sidious, the other being the movie itself when Sidious says "Darth Vader WILL BECOME more powerful than either of us"

and why would Sidious musing Vader will become more powerful than them both preclude his power already being on par with them? also you said yourself last post that we apparently shouldn't take IU opinions seriously, so is that another concession 

iamthatretard wrote:Mace also says Yoda is inferior to Grievous, IU opinions aren't infallible.  In fact, they are actually the opposite.  And I've already explained how the tier system refers to overall power.

That quote is referring to potential.  It's referring to Skywalker potential and how Anakin was supposed to surpass Sidious, but now Luke will.

all this is saying is that Sidious wanted his a apprentice to become more powerful than himself, That's potential my friend.

Yup he can't. Don't see how that makes him equal to Sidious though.